Posting something my friend Michael Stein wrote a few years back for this day – Holocaust Remembrance Day. Once some posters here are done with the obligatory “that’s what Jews are doing to Palestinians” maybe they will take some time to read this.
“I wrote a thing. It’s long. You’ve been warned.
Today is International Holocaust Remembrance Day, as designated by the United Nations General Assembly. January 27, 1945 was the day that Auschwitz-Birkenauthe, the largest Nazi death camp, was liberated by Soviet troops. The final death toll included the systematic murder of six million Jews and an additional eleven million other people by the Nazis and their collaborators.
The word “holocaust” originally derived from the Greek word holokauston, meaning “a completely (holos) burnt (kaustos) sacrificial offering,” or a burnt sacrifice offered to a god. The biblical word Shoah meaning “calamity” in Hebrew (and also used to refer to “destruction” since the Middle Ages), has become the standard Hebrew term for the 20th-century Holocaust as early as the early 1940s. It specifically refers to the Jewish victims of the Nazi death machine.
There are 14,511,000 Jews in the world, some two million fewer than on the eve of the Nazi destruction of European Jewry. Let that sink in. 74 years after the Shoah the Jewish people have yet to recover.
In 2018 there are 6.45 million Jews living in Israel, more than in any other country. The United States has the world’s second largest Jewish population, with 5.7 million people, France has 456,000 Jews, and Canada has 390,000. Further down the list, Britain has some 290,000 Jews, Argentina is home to 181,000, Russia has 176,000, Germany has 117,000 and 113,000 Jews live in Australia. Statistics show that since 1948, the world’s Jewish population has increased by 26 percent, while the general population of the globe has increased 300 percent. In effect, Jews are becoming an ever smaller minority relative to the rest of the world.
Two-thirds of American millennials surveyed in a recent poll cannot identify what Auschwitz is. Twenty-two percent of millennials in the poll said they haven’t heard of the Holocaust or are not sure whether they’ve heard of it — twice the percentage of U.S. adults as a whole who said the same. We have to do better with the Holocaust education.
Just so we are on the same page:
1) There are still less Jews in the world than there were before the Shoah.
2) As the global population increases, Jews are becoming an ever smaller and even more vulnerable minority.
3) Ignorance is only getting worse with each successive generation.
But wait, it gets worse.
We are seeing an unprecedented rise in anti-Semitism today. The ADL reports that there were 1,986 anti-Semitic incidents reported across the United States in 2017, including physical assaults, vandalism, and attacks on Jewish institutions. That figure represents a 57 percent increase over the 1,267 incidents in 2016. Every part of the country was affected, with an incident reported in all 50 states for the first time in at least a decade. The sharp rise was in part due to a significant increase in incidents in schools and on college campuses, which nearly doubled for the second year in a row. (It is my personal experience that student led anti-Israel activism devolves into anti-Semitism real fast.) FBI statistics show that anti-Black and Anti-Jewish hate crimes are the most prevalent types of hate crimes in the country.
Not long ago America endured the deadliest anti-Semitic attack in the country’s history, a shooting that killed 11 people at the Tree of Life Congregation in Pittsburgh. BDE.
Meanwhile, anti-Semitism seems have gone mainstream across American politics. The right seems rather obsessed with blaming every perceived evil on George Soros (a Hungarian Jew who survived the Holocaust.) The left spends it’s time throwing blood libels at Israel and giving a platform to anti-Semites like Tamika Mallory, Linda Sarsour, and Louis Farrakhan. My point being is that anti-Semitism is endemic to both sides.
I wish I could tell that what is occurring in America was an anomaly, but that is not the case. We are seeing some truly concerning trends across the globe, but I want to focus on Europe for a second. Why Europe? Because the entire continent of Europe is a freaking disaster when it comes to anti-Semitism. Again it is endemic to both left and right wing politics. We are seeing historic rises in anti-Semetic hate crimes across Europe, but it is notably worse in France. There are Jews living in Europe who fear walking the streets. On the left, Jeremy Corbyn and Labour in the UK just keep getting caught saying undeniably anti-Semitic things. The list of anti-Semitic incidents over the last few years involving Labour is positively massive. The rise in anti-Semitic rhetoric coming from Labour has motivated many British Jews to immigrate to Israel. Meanwhile the far right under Orban in Hungary continues to demonize George Soros. In Poland the far right wing government passed legislation in an attempt to blame the Holocaust entirely on the Nazis while denying that there were Polish collaborators, participants and enablers. In summary, 74 years after the end of the Shoah we are seeing the rise of anti-Semitic violence, bigotry, and ignorance across The United States, the entire continent of Europe, and across rest of the globe.
Just a few last thoughts. I’ll try to be brief.
Yad Vashem (literally, “a monument and a name”) is Israel’s official memorial to the victims of the Shoah. It is dedicated to preserving the memory of the dead; honoring Jews who fought against their Nazi oppressors and Gentiles who selflessly aided Jews in need; and researching the phenomenon of the Shoah in particular and genocide in general, with the aim of avoiding such events in the future. Yad Vashem bestows the honorific “Righteous Among the Nations” to describe non-Jews who risked their lives during the Shoah to save Jews from extermination by the Nazis. (The term originates with the concept of “righteous gentiles”, a term used in rabbinic Judaism to refer to non-Jews, called ger toshav, who abide by the Seven Laws of Noah.) In total, 26,973 (as of 1 January 2018) men and women from 51 countries have been recognized as Righteous Among the Nations, amounting to more than 10,000 authenticated rescue stories. At the time, there were billions of people in the world and hundreds of millions in Europe, but only a handful stepped up and risked their lives for Jews. The majority of the world stood by, they said nothing, and they did nothing. In fact, many countries like the US turned Jewish refugees away. (The most well-known example being the tragedy of the MS St. Louis.)
I have no panacea to prevent another Shoah. I have no wise words for solemn days like today, but I’ll tell you what I’ll do to honor the memory of those that were taken from us. I’ll continue on as proud and unapologetic Jew. I’ll continue support efforts to preserve Jewish culture and history. I’ll continue to support my tribesmen. I’ll continue to foster community among the Jewish people. I will continue to push for a just, tolerant, diverse, and inclusive society. I’ll continue to encourage dialogue, good will, and solidarity between Jews and other minority communities. I’ll continue to speak up and stand up against hate, bigotry, ignorance, and genocide. I’ll continue being a Zionist. (Yep, I brought up Zionism.) Saying “never again” just isn’t enough, we need action. As detailed above, there is no reason to be particularly hopeful, every metric shows the world is regressing, but I will continue to be defiant.
Lastly, I am going to say there have been numerous genocides since the Holocaust. By and large the world silently stands by. There are genocides and acts of genocide that are still going *TODAY.* It’s time to step up and actually do something before we watch history repeat itself yet again.”
Before you comment, remember it’s Holocaust remembrance day, and I am centering Jews here, a tribe I am a part of..nothing more.”
143 comments
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January 27, 2024 at 2:36 pm
Anonymous
Don’t you mean Holocaust Hoax Day?
FUCK ISRAEL. FUCK THE ROTHSCHILDS.
January 27, 2024 at 3:00 pm
Mitch
Thanks, Eric. And, in a way, anonymous, you’ve also provided a gift here, so thank you as well.
27,000 righteous is a decent start. It’s good to know there are good people out there.
January 27, 2024 at 3:18 pm
John
Despite Anonymous at 2.36pm and despite the protestors out there in the streets around universities, Mitch is right.
Most people are good people.
January 27, 2024 at 5:48 pm
Eric Kirk
Yeah, when I first saw the anonymous post I instinctively went to zap it, but thought that it might actually serve a purpose to leave it in place.
January 27, 2024 at 6:39 pm
Eric Kirk
I also think the 27,000 aren’t fully representative as not everyone was presented with such opportunity to save Jewish lives. These were people who were in circumstances that might have cost them their own lives (and sometimes did) to rescue Jewish and other victims of Nazism. I know that thousands of Danes were involved in getting 7000 or so Jews across the water to Sweden as Germany was invading, with use of fishing boats primarily. That was an underground operation, so many of those people aren’t even known and so can’t receive the award by name. I suspect that even excluding soldiers performing their duties there were many more than 27,000 who played some function in those underground networks.
January 28, 2024 at 8:31 am
Henchman Of Justice
I have never met a jew I can’t call a liar or whipped!
I have never met a jew who does not talk shit, make up shit or just plane be a piece of shit… maybe good jews are out there, but they are hard to find…
January 28, 2024 at 9:38 am
Henchman Of Justice
Like I write, jews are not the only “Israelites”… and jews deserve only Judah/Judea/Judai, in the southern part of current day territory of Israel…
…Israel is not a State or Country, and fake processes do not count to make as such… world allied nation leaders can eat rotten eggs, for they are the real Nazis… not hard for honest people to connect dots…
January 28, 2024 at 9:41 am
Henchman Of Justice
Personally, I will never commemorate another culture, but I will support facts if it helps and matters… and I will enjoy experiencing the goodness of other cultures when opportunity arises…
January 28, 2024 at 4:05 pm
Mitch
Eric,
I agree the number of heroes is probably far larger than 27,000. Regardless, it is far lower than it should be.
The reason I used your law practice for some (minor) work, some years back, was I knew of your candlelight vigil in Southern Humboldt, standing, alone, for gay rights. That alone makes you an extremely rare person of great value as a demonstrator of what-should-be-common decency.
On another issue, I rarely read what HoJ posts, understanding that he cannot be held responsible for his statements. It’s true, Jews are a tiny minority in the world, 0.2% of the world population and 2% of the United States’ population. There are only twelve countries in the world where more than 50,000 Jews survive. The only country besides the United States in which more than a half million Jews survive is Israel. But space lasers and the blood of Christian infants (oops, sorry, out of date: Palestinians) give us lasting power, despite our tiny numbers.
Here are some lists of American Jews. It’s a shame HoJ hasn’t met any who he considers worthwhile:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_American_Jews
January 28, 2024 at 4:13 pm
Mitch
“standing, alone, for gay rights.”
This was before everybody in Humboldt found a compliant gay friend to prove how woke they are, back during the dark ages.
January 28, 2024 at 4:15 pm
Mitch
Now you don’t even need to know a black or gay person (one category, donchaknow), you just have to create a department of DEI and the checklist is checked and a professional DEI consultant is paid and happy. Easy-peasy.
January 28, 2024 at 4:18 pm
Anonymous
Once magoo gets us into war with Iran, everyone will have another outlet for their military strategy expertise…..
January 28, 2024 at 9:24 pm
Eric Kirk
If we were going to be in a war with Iran it would have happened when a certain reckless President assassinated one of their leaders. We’ve been bombing their surrogates in Yemen for nearly 2 decades now – with Trump dropping more bombs there than Bush and Obama combined. The loss of three soldiers is horrible, but it’s hardly unusual. What would Trump or anyone else be doing differently?
January 28, 2024 at 9:27 pm
bolithio
Nothing.
January 29, 2024 at 4:51 am
Anonymous
Trump wouldn’t have to do anything. Iran wouldn’t have had the balls to kill 3 Americans. magoo’s weakness emboldens our enemies…..
January 29, 2024 at 5:48 am
Henchman Of Justice
Ironic how 2 Party System media focuses attention on palestine supporters, window dressing them as anti-Semitic for such phrases as “Free Gaza” or,
Al·la·hu Ak·bar
exclamation
a phrase meaning ‘God is most great’, used by Muslims in prayers and as a general declaration of faith or thanksgiving.
“crowds of people gathered, shouting ‘Allahu Akbar!’”
We get it though, Hebrews believe their God is greatest!
January 29, 2024 at 7:04 am
Anonymous
If we were going to be in a war with Iran . .
Agreed, but I’d move the clock back further to Iraq II. One of the rational voices at the time:
Esquire magazine, orginally published in Apr. 2008 quoting the CentCom Commander Adm. William (Fox) Fallon:
And Fallon is in no hurry to call Iran’s hand on the nuclear question. He is as patient as the White House is impatient, as methodical as President Bush is mercurial, and simply has, as one aide put it, “other bright ideas about the region.” Fallon is even more direct: In a part of the world with “five or six pots boiling over, our nation can’t afford to be mesmerized by one problem.”
And if it comes to war?
“Get serious,” the admiral says. “These guys are ants. When the time comes, you crush them.”
January 29, 2024 at 7:55 am
Henchman Of Justice
It has always been about skin politics, it matters not which direction by democrats or republicans, skin is as skin does…
…begets the question on judge’s race though…and party politics registration!
January 29, 2024 at 9:52 am
Anonymous
…..” a certain reckless President assassinated one of their leaders. ”
Isn’t there an old saying about cutting off the head of a snake, and what happens next ?
January 29, 2024 at 9:53 am
Eric Kirk
Trump wouldn’t have to do anything. Iran wouldn’t have had the balls to kill 3 Americans. magoo’s weakness emboldens our enemies…..
Yeah. The world was trembling before Trump’s might.
January 29, 2024 at 9:59 am
Mitch
The only attack on American soil, since WWII, was under that wimp Obama, right? Oh, wait a minute. Well, it should have been. Shrub the draft dodger had balls the size of watermelons, and def knew how to wear a flight suit. And Obama has teensy raisins.
January 29, 2024 at 10:09 am
Eric Kirk
Isn’t there an old saying about cutting off the head of a snake, and what happens next ?
An extremist terror movement isn’t a snake. It’s a hydra.
January 29, 2024 at 10:39 am
Anonymous
And Trump was Hercules…..
January 29, 2024 at 10:49 am
Eric Kirk
Hercules?
Well, you’re not as ambitious some MAGA folk who think he’s Jesus.
January 29, 2024 at 11:27 am
Eric Kirk
For the record, in his 4 years Trump lost 65 soldiers in combat deaths. To date Biden has lost 16.
January 29, 2024 at 2:58 pm
Anonymous
Vang…..for the record, we were at war during Trump’s time in office. Your comments border on the moronic sometimes…..
January 29, 2024 at 3:53 pm
Eric Kirk
45 of the combat deaths were in Afghanistan, but again, you’re making excuses. The war was happening when Biden lost 13, and a middle east war is happening right now with the Houthis trying to take advantage of the chaos.
January 29, 2024 at 4:00 pm
Anonymous
Glad to see that you agree magoo was personally responsible for the deaths of 13 Americans in Afghanistan…..
January 29, 2024 at 4:48 pm
Eric Kirk
It happened under his watch. The buck stops at the top – except apparently when Trump is in power.
January 29, 2024 at 6:31 pm
Anonymous
You girls are never going to survive the Four Year Revenge Tour !
January 29, 2024 at 6:52 pm
Eric Kirk
I don’t think the planet would survive that. Democracy certainly wouldn’t.
But I’m confident that there are enough sane voters out there to prevent that.
January 30, 2024 at 1:31 am
bolithio
“…with the Houthis trying to take advantage of the chaos.”
No. The Houthis want 1 thing. A cease fire in Gaza. They have said it over and over. There were exactly zero Huthi attacks during the cease fire.
January 30, 2024 at 4:56 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
This is how Israel and the U.S. can wage this slaughter of retribution on such a massive scale; by (imo) murdering those who would otherwise report on the death and destruction so we could see how cruel, unusual and consistent it is.
January 30, 2024 at 5:07 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
But the true scale of death and destruction is impossible to grasp, the details hazy and shrouded by internet and cellphone blackouts that obstruct communication, restrictions barring international journalists and the extreme, often life-threatening challenges of reporting as a local journalist from Gaza.
…
With every passing week, however, the light dims as those documenting the war leave, quit or die. Reporting from Gaza has come to seem pointlessly risky to some local journalists, who despair of moving the rest of the world to act.
…
“I survived death multiple times and put myself in danger” to document the war, Ismail al-Dahdouh, a Gaza reporter, wrote in an Instagram post this month to announce he was quitting journalism. Yet a world “that doesn’t know the meaning of humanity” had not acted to stop it.
…
” At least 76 Palestinian journalists have been killed in Gaza since Oct. 7, when Hamas led an attack on Israel and Israel responded by launching an all-out war. The Committee to Protect Journalists says more journalists and media workers — including essential support staff such as translators, drivers and fixers — have been killed in the past 16 weeks than in a whole year of any other conflict since 1992.
…
Nearly all the journalists who have died in Gaza since Oct. 7 were killed by Israeli airstrikes, according to the Committee to Protect Journalists, 38 of them at home, in their cars or alongside family members. That has led many Palestinians to accuse Israel of targeting journalists, though CPJ has not echoed that allegation.
…
An Israeli military spokesman, Nir Dinar, said that Israel “has never and will never deliberately target journalists.” But he cautioned that remaining in active combat zones carried risks. He called the accusation that Israel was deliberately cutting communications networks to hide the war a “blood libel.”
…
The Palestinian Journalists’ Syndicate, which has members in both Gaza and the West Bank, has counted at least 25 Gaza journalists who it says were wearing protective vests bearing the word “press” when they were killed, said Shuruq Asad, a syndicate spokeswoman. Some journalists have been sleeping away from their families for fear that sheltering with relatives would put them at risk, she added.
…
Since Oct. 7, Israel has blocked most of Gaza’s electricity and barred all but a slow drip of aid from entering the territory. The war has also damaged or severed communications networks, making it nearly impossible for most Gazans to give interviews to foreign media outlets. Telecommunications have disappeared entirely more than half a dozen times during the conflict.
January 30, 2024 at 5:26 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
So how is it a country with good & decent people with a liberal, left-of-center party in power swing and miss so badly on Gaza? To understand this you have to know the history of U.S./ Israel relations but at the same time not let it cause you dispair nor to lose hope. I’d say it all boils down to…
a) A Republican Party that, outside of a dangerous but tiny anti-Semitic contingent banished to the shadows, embraces Israel’s & Netanyahu’s cause as their own.
b) Nearly complete IDF control of the war zone with what I believe to include war crimes to keep the world from having full access to the asymmetric depravity of the death destruction in Gaza
c) A Democratic Party that is cowed by both primary threats to those with the courage or interest in speaking out
d) The use of the threat of antisemitism to blind ourselves from the evil of what is occurring daily in Gaza in a asymmetric, unnecessary and ultimately counterproductive and dangerous escalation of a war that will ripple through those you survive this for decades creating even more anti-Israel sentiment which will be called antisemitism continuing the cycle.
To be clear antisemitism exist and is a scourge. Israel, and the U.S. are making it worse not better by our actions. Liberals need to trust in international criminal organizations as an alternative to war in the fight against international terror and we’ve been failing to make this case for decades and that is on us and makes us complicit when the right does lead us into trying to continue the cycle of violence that, btw, has no end.
January 30, 2024 at 5:54 am
Anonymous
Ah yes, the Houthis, such champions of human rights…
January 30, 2024 at 7:47 am
Mitch
What is happening in Gaza is a tragedy, and Jon may well be correct that it is counterproductive, time will tell.
What Jon and others may not understand is that Israel is not like other nations.
Nations like the United States, China, and Russia may be interested in geopolitics and resources. They have many contending groups, and if a bunch of oil companies want something, while a bunch of human rights activists don’t, the oil companies will get their way.
For Israel, it’s much simpler. Israel will survive, and will not allow its citizens to be attacked. Before Israel is destroyed, it will use its nuclear weapons. Personally, I think that’s a good thing. Israel is going to make it clear to the world that if you turn your territory into one large military asset against it, Israel will treat your territory as one large military asset. Simple.
For centuries and millennia, Jews were the world’s scapegoat and weakling; people who were bullied and, reliably, did not fight back. That leaves an impact. After the six million, Israel is not going to leave intact a group which has murdered, raped, and kidnapped Israelis. Not under any circumstances, including worldwide condemnation.
If that is counterproductive, it is not rare for nations and people to do things that are counterproductive.
In every other situation where people have moved as a result of war, they have been taken in by other nations. Only in the case of the Palestinians has this new concept of eternal refugee come to be. The middle east was a conquest of various empires, and in the early 20th century was controlled by world powers including the UK. Jordan is as much a creation of the world as Israel. It is pure insanity that a Palestinian country, one carved from the British mandate in the middle east, has never granted citizenship to people who were displaced when Israel was carved from that mandate.
What the world has done to the Palestinian people is a disgrace. But it is only the world’s contempt for Jews that has enabled this to happen. There will never be a complete Israeli victory, meaning that there will always be terrorism against Israel. And that’s because, unlike the other nations of the world, the Jewish state is never ever EVER going to have reliable allies. It’s a matter of history.
January 30, 2024 at 9:14 am
Mitch
Unless and until the world understands the baked-in Jewish fear resulting from constantly being subject to unjust aggression , nobody is going to understand Israel, whose response to 10/7 absolutely will not strike most older Jews as “disproportionate.”
The occupied territories didn’t just happen — the occupation was an Israeli response to aggression against Israel. That they haven’t been returned is simply because until Arab states reliably stop hosting terrorism against Israelis, the territories are deemed by Israel to be important to its defense. And look what happened when Gaza was handed back unilaterally. You may disagree, but you need to understand the Israeli attitude, and why it exists.
The holocaust was one uniquely large pogrom in a millennia-long series of them delivered from all the rest of the world. The Israeli sabra identity is of someone who realizes the world can never be depended upon for help, who is well aware that the world is filled with bullies who hate Jews, and who will act to protect themselves regardless of the world’s opinion.
October 7th was an attack on Jewish people minding their own business. That remains the truth regardless of what you may think of the Israeli government and the occupied territories. Israel will never fail to respond against those who make such attacks, and no Israeli response will ever feel disproportionate to Israelis.
Even secular Jews understand the Israeli response, except for young Jews who have lived lives largely sheltered from anti-semitic harm, who were raised to be sensitive to the concerns of others, and who don’t realize how exceptionally rare their good fortune was in the history of the Jewish people. Try to imagine some young woman who doesn’t believe in God, let alone a “chosen people,” *still* feeling the need to “#Have Jewish Babies,” and it may help you understand.
From an article in today’s NYT.
“Conversations about reproduction and repopulation can loom large for Jews, an ethnoreligious group in which inclusion was traditionally based on matrilineal descent, and that lost millions to genocide. According to the Jewish Agency for Israel, there are 15.7 million Jews in the world today, still short of the more than 16 million Jews demographers estimate were alive before the Holocaust…
“Now, even some unobservant or secular Jewish women, for whom such concerns were far from important before Oct. 7, have rediscovered the imperative to have Jewish children. And women from all of these groups describe a reawakened ethnic trauma that is factoring into their family planning decisions.
“Part of it is repopulating,” said Ariela Shandling, a speech pathologist in Los Angeles. “And part of it is in honor of those people who died.” (In Israel, some families have been naming their children born after Oct. 7 for the kibbutzim where some of the worst violence took place.)
January 30, 2024 at 6:24 pm
Jon Yalcinkaya
Mitch, I don’t think you are clear on the difference between tragedies and deliberate and intentional violence.
From Google… an event causing great suffering, destruction, and distress, such as a serious accident, crime, or natural catastrophe.
January 30, 2024 at 7:18 pm
Anonymous
The orgy of atrocities Hamas launched on October 7th, when they deliberately targeted innocent civilians with mass murder, gang rape, torture and kidnapping, is the “deliberate and intentional violence” that started this war.
The “tragedy” is that Hamas cares so much more about murdering, raping, torturing and kidnapping Jews than it does about the wellbeing of those it purports to represent.
And the farce is the supposed friends of Palestine who are demanding that Israel leave Hamas in charge of Gaza so that they can resume murdering both Israelis and any dissenters in Gaza.
January 30, 2024 at 8:29 pm
bolithio
That certainly is a farce. A cyclical ploy to distract and discredit.
Friends of Palestine are demanding what Palestinians have been demanding – to stop bombing them indiscriminately, to stop destroying their lives and culture, and to end the apartheid.
January 30, 2024 at 8:57 pm
Mitch
Jon, Anon at 718 pretty much responded for me
January 30, 2024 at 9:16 pm
Eric Kirk
I think Golda Meir’s iconic quote is as relevant as ever.
January 30, 2024 at 11:57 pm
Mitch
This one?
“When peace comes, we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be har
der for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons.”
Press conference in London (1969), as quoted in A Land of Our Own : An Oral Autobiography (1973) edited by Marie Syrkin, p. 242
January 31, 2024 at 1:18 am
Eric Kirk
And most of all the sentence which immediately follows: “Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.”
January 31, 2024 at 1:28 am
Anonymous
Why aren’t Jews having more kids?
January 31, 2024 at 4:42 am
Anonymous
Notice what Bolithio leaves out of his one-sided equation for ending this war: Any mention of the group that started this war.
And of course, one must not mention “hamas, hamas, hamas” because then one would have to acknowledge that the demand for Israel to stop the war now would mean leaving Hamas in a position to retake control of Gaza, so that Hamas can keep murdering, raping, torturing and kidnapping Jews whenever it can, and so that Hamas can resume murdering and torturing Gazans to suppress any dissent to its brutal, dictatorial, kleptocratic rule in Gaza.
January 31, 2024 at 4:47 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
I missed the part of her quote where Golda Meir said as they call for a global migration to this tiny & narrow plot of land displacing & de-humanizing the non-Jewish inhabitants that they’d practice inhumane acts of war and hide their despicable actions from the international community and disingenuously call those who protest, even Jewish people, antisemitic.
All this while waiving your hands and saying “Hamas”. WE played a role in creating Gaza as it was. WE have a responsibility to be accountable and find means other than dissolution of a society than what the far right decides is the answer and WE need to be able to hold ourselves and our leaders accountable even if the right can’t or won’t. WE have to create that reality because the right’s version cannot be allowed to be the default.
That’s not being a purist, it’s being human and if we stop seeing everyone as human and demand laws & principles apply equally, well, we learned that lesson in the 20th century, didn’t we?
January 31, 2024 at 4:52 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
And I’m sorry but it it is too disorienting to figure out who is saying what when everyone is an anon. I’m not taking anon responses into account and I might not even read the responses. Pick a name and stick with it. If you can’t then just pick a name and stick with it. If you don’t respect you audience enough to spend 5 seconds to type your nickname, why should I invest any of my time responding? Common now!
January 31, 2024 at 4:56 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
A cyclical ploy to distract and discredit.
Nailed it bolithio. And it’s increasing evident that it’s cynical too, even from liberals (and I include myself as one) who know better.
January 31, 2024 at 5:09 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
Also, to change the topic a bit, having listened to Glenn Beck for months lying about immigration and seeing it percolating to the top of the news cycle and understanding how Trump won in 2016, I suggest we start talking about what it means to be liberal wrt immigration and why that’s a better idea than the conservative idea of fear lies and “othering”. That is unless you just wanna try to throw PAC money at “the Hispanics”, have politicians kick a soccer ball into a TV in the 30 sec ads while adopting conservative immigration policies based on their faux-populist fear mongering and call it good.
January 31, 2024 at 7:38 am
Henchman Of Justice
Mitchboi upthread did mention he was currently thinking of the male genitalia… finding a way to tape measure an African and a Caucasian to explain something only Mitchboi was fiendishly fending for in thought while discriminately traversing human anatomy for a life source… like water in a desert… IDK, just how it reads…desperate for male genitalia, size matters!
January 30, 2024 at 6:24 pm
Jon Yalcinkaya
Mitch, I don’t think you are clear on the difference between tragedies and deliberate and intentional violence.
January 31, 2024 at 8:03 am
Mitch
Jon,
With the exception of Israel’s War of Independence, which occurred after Arab states refused to accept the negotiation of partition done with the region’s colonial power ending its mandate, please name me one time and place in the last 500-1000 years that Jews have been the aggressors in a war, rather than the people responding to attack from their neighbors.
January 31, 2024 at 10:56 am
bolithio
Since the beginning, Israel officials from the top down have been saying exactly what they really want. At a conference on Sunday (the kick-off speaker being Rabbi Uzi Sharbag [terrorism bad, eh?], we had many of these officials once again speaking very clearly, spelling out exactly what the government is intending and doing:
‘We need to find a legal way to voluntarily emigrate Palestinians,’ ~ Ben-Gvir, Minister of National Security
‘voluntary [emigration] is a state you impose on someone until they give their consent’ ~ Shlomo Karai, Minister of Communications
“Today, after 18 years [from disengagement from Gaza], we have the opportunity to rebuild and expand the land of Israel. This is our final opportunity.” Haim Katz Likud Minister
Stunning.
When you add this up, with the total destruction of a civil function of Gaza – from housing, to schools, to mosques, world heritage sites, graveyards, factories, all manor of the life and culture of that once was Gaza – with the ever present and consistent messaging from Israeli officials and media – it is not difficult to see what is happening.
As BiBi pushes to expand the war into Lebanon (against people who had nothing to do with 10/7) to protect his criminal cabinet and party – a conflict that will undoubtedly draw the US into, at what point to do start to understand why Bidens unconditional support for Israel three months on is a disaster. All he needed to do was condition aid on a reasonable retaliatory response, while ensuring proper and adequate aid.
This is what Friends of Palestine are asking for. This and a ‘day after’ policy that is not one of apartheid. You know, the thing that actually breeds reactionary violence. Not the racist view of Arabs as backwards barbarians who are born to hate the Jews.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-01-28/ty-article/ministers-from-netanyahus-party-join-thousands-of-israelis-at-resettle-gaza-conference/0000018d-512f-dfdc-a5ad-db7f35e10000
January 31, 2024 at 11:05 am
Mitch
Here’s an article about divisions between students at an Israeli university. I haven’t encountered reports of similar divisions on any campuses in any Arab country or territory. Can anyone point me to them? You know, where the 40% of students who are Jewish are having trouble for expressing their belief that Jews can remain between the river and the sea? Surely Arafat U. has open debates on such topics?
https://www.npr.org/2024/01/30/1226618464/israel-universities-gaza-war-arab-students
January 31, 2024 at 11:24 am
Mitch
And one about the textbooks used in Gaza:
https://forward.com/opinion/566841/hamas-schools-indoctrination-antisemitic-textbooks-gaza/
January 31, 2024 at 3:25 pm
Anonymous
“All this while waiving your hands and saying ‘Hamas'”
WhY wonN’T yOU pEOple StoP TAlkIng aBUot TeH gROuP ThAT StaRTeD ThIS WaR in THIs diSCUsSiON oF ThIS wAR?!?!!
February 1, 2024 at 3:19 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
With the exception of Israel’s War of Independence, which occurred after Arab states refused to accept the negotiation of partition done with the region’s colonial power ending its mandate, please name me one time and place in the last 500-1000 years that Jews have been the aggressors in a war, rather than the people responding to attack from their neighbors.
Did you mean Israel?
Assuming you did and without going to the library and reading a shelf’s full of books, let’s assume never; let’s assume Gods children are that in name and spirit and make the corollary assumption that Arabs are aggressive weapon-wielding, antisemitic POSes.
What about Iran? Are you (or is it Israel) at war with Iran? When you, (or is it Israel) attack Iran to destroy their nuclear capacity will that be a first strike or is it something akin to preventative medicine/preventative war and wouldn’t count as a first strike?
Or wait, Iranians are not Arabs so that wasn’t the question.
Mitch, I am genuinely curious tho, why did you use the term Jews? Was it a Freudian(ish) mistake? Were you being bitterly sarcastic knowing that most leftists you engage with are antisemitic and conflate ethnicity with nationality as a secret code for their hatred or do you believe somewhere in your heart that when at war, such as in Gaza, Israel’s wars are Jewish wars? I’d imagine many American Jews feel that way. I’d imagine I might feel that way if Turkey went to war.
Re-reading this I think I get it. You had to use “Jews” because you wanted to make this about pre-Israel. But that turn of phrase does really cement Israel as a Jewish cause and as it’s non-Jewish inhabitants as interlopers, doesn’t it?
February 1, 2024 at 3:43 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
And I gotta say, this obsession of yours with Arab schools is, well, unfair. for lack of a better word at this time. Your point, ultimately, is to ask where does that hate come from and it pre-supposes there is an innate hatred by Arabs for Jewish people.
Here’s an article about divisions between students at an Israeli university. I haven’t encountered reports of similar divisions on any campuses in any Arab country or territory. Can anyone point me to them?
You won’t be surprised to know my answer is no. Why do *you* suppose that is? (I could add mine but it would start with a lack of coverage concern in our capitalist Judeo-Christian nation – to use the right’s preferred frame, one that goes a long way to describe our Western values for better and worse) I could ask my cousins what their experience as Arabs in Tunisian schools was, what specifically would you like me to ask or is it really come down to you/we know the answer because Jews no longer live in Tunisia. (I’m making the assumption of fact based on prior comments of yours *wikies* * and it’s basically right, and disappointing)
The Jewish population of Tunisia, estimated at about 105,000 individuals in 1948, numbered around 1,000 individuals as of 2019.
And honestly Mitch, how much of that decrease is due to your one word manifesto in your original comment, this war between Jews and Arabs in which Jews are the light, DEFENDING the light, and with a beacon of that light having been created in 1948?
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Tunisia#:~:text=The%20Jewish%20population%20of%20Tunisia,1%2C000%20individuals%20as%20of%202019.
February 1, 2024 at 4:41 am
Anonymous
“Your point, ultimately, is to ask where does that hate come from and it pre-supposes there is an innate hatred by Arabs for Jewish people.”
This is exactly backward.
If one believed Arab hate for Jews was somehow “innate,” then what schools teach wouldn’t really matter.
Being concerned that hatred is being taught in schools suggests a strong belief that if it were not for that teaching, there would be less hate.
Of course schools are not the only place where hatred is taught. But unlike, for example, teaching that takes places within in families, schools are a place where teaching hatred could and should be stopped as a matter of policy.
February 1, 2024 at 6:29 am
Mitch
Jon, Iran is the sponsor of terrorist groups which attack Israel. An attack on an Iranian reactor would, in my opinion, be self defense.
My obsession with Arab schools? I wouldn’t characterize it as an obsession, but when you teach children to hate, they hate.
February 1, 2024 at 6:31 am
Mitch
Here’s a plan. To avoid being attacked by Israel, don’t attack it and don’t use proxies to attack it, and do r work to develop weapons that will be used to attack it.
February 1, 2024 at 8:45 am
Henchman Of Justice
Israel is a Kingdom that was broken up into 12 distinct Kingdoms…Jews want to be The One, “My Precious”…
…Jews can only claim land South of Jerusalem as “Their part of Israel”…
…obviously, not agreeing to paperwork created by others is still not approval or permission for others to do as it pleases against those who will never agree…
…it is all lawyer-type bullshit…inventing paperwork, then seeking out anyone and their processes to make decisions relative to nothing factual or evidenced…
WE WANT TO RAPE YOU, BUT YOU DISAGREE AND WILL NOT LET US RAPE YOU, SO WE WILL GO FIND OTHER PEOPLE WHO WILL GO ALONG WITH OUR INTENTIONS TO RAPE YOU, AND YOUR OPPOSITION ONLY SERVES A PROCESS LATER FOR WHICH WE WILL WRITE WHAT WE WANT, HOW WE WANT, AND USA GOVERNMENT TYPES AND USA LAWYERS WILL PUSH IT AS TRUE!
February 1, 2024 at 8:55 am
Henchman Of Justice
Mitchboi is ecstatic that USA violates terms and agreements… against North American Indians/Natives, and even against accords to stay out of the middle east region’s cultural affairs… not to supply aid to Jews or Muslims…
… and we all know without arguing how USA is a liar’s society, where signatures are meaningless, serving only as fraud often later… ya know, signing shit you never intend to adhere too just to get your foot into the door to buy the farm… trojan horse example, so many of them in USA…A LIAR’S SOCIETY!
February 1, 2024 at 11:55 pm
Anonymous
Mitch, how ancient, out of touch and/or beyond brainwashed are you? “When have Jews ever started a war?”, says Mitch (to paraphrase his incredible idiocy).
ANYONE HAVE ANY THOUGHTS ON THAT ONE? Jesus Christ, Mitch…. You’re nuts!
How about 1967? Do you recall that war – I know you do, old man – by Israel who slaughtered dozens of American sailors on the USS Liberty (an electronic surveillance ship) at the beginning of Israel’s war of conquest in 1967 to destroy the intercepts evidence on board of Israel’s aggression? Again, Jesus Christ, Mitch…Wake up, man.
Oh wait, did I offend your Jewish snowflake sensibilities by mentioning the real Messiah’s name? Is saying the word “JESUS” anti-Semitic somehow? Did I just commit a hate crime? (And you still wonder why self-righteous, racist, genocidal Jewish assholes are so unpopular worldwide?). Not so many feel sorry anymore for you pathetic pricks as often as you brainwashed boys cry wolf!
Sure, Mitch and Captain Kirk (another overwrought Jew), everyone’s just out to get you, right? Human history is just one massive conspiracy against you greedy, power hungry, overprivileged Jewish cocksuckers, right? That’s your belief. Fucking crazy conspiracy theorist pricks!
February 2, 2024 at 1:07 am
Eric Kirk
1. Not that it matters, but as it happens I’m not Jewish. According to 23 and me there is some Jewish blood in me that amounts to about 3 percent from an ancestor in about mid-19th century. Other than that I’m white/goyish as it gets.
2. To say that Israel started the 6 Day War is a huge oversimplification, and historians debate as to what actually “started” it. Was it Israel’s preemptive strike against the mobilized forces of Syria and Egypt, or was it Syria shooting at Israeli civilians and Egypt expelling the UN forces and blockading the Suez Canal?
3. Your accusation re “Jesus” is the king of all straw men. But according to the faith, you just sinned when took your savior’s name in vain.
February 2, 2024 at 4:47 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
Jon, Iran is the sponsor of terrorist groups which attack Israel. An attack on an Iranian reactor would, in my opinion, be self defense.
I guess the question would be is what countries can Israel attack at this moment and it would be considered justified and an act of self defense? (b/c I think you speak for the majority of Americans and all but a small minority of antisemitic Republicans/conservatives and I should understand this)
Also what extent of an attack would be warranted? How many deaths, how many buildings, and is it warranted to prevent a civilization from entering the nuclear age with all the benefits that comes with it. Which states must be prevented from becoming nuclear in the name of Israel’s self defense?
Also, retroactively this would of course have also applied to Gaza pre 10/7, but perhaps without 10/7 20,000 killed and Gaza eliminated may not have been fully justified. I wonder how many would have been? How many would have been if Hamas didn’t participate in an orgy of mass murder but instead focused on police: (Because Israel didn’t leave military targets for them b/c as far as I could tell they weren’t defending themselves at the time, Israel seems to be best at the type of defense that involves lots more Neighbors killed than citizens. Which is kinda the only way war can be justified in democracies.
February 2, 2024 at 5:20 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
And wrt schools I invite you all to listen to how the right wing uses that trope. (I heard it again yesterday on the Beck show) And again I ask, what do you want to know from actual Arabs about their actual schooling rather than cartoonish tropes of the worst of the worst that is being insinuated? I can ask my extended family. The key to my point is they are human just like us but what is also true is their values are not our values so if you value disagreement or plurality in classes that may not be their strength or value. I don’t know I was 4 or 5 or 6 when I went to a Tunisian school and the only thing I really remember was it was taught in French so it’s probably not the school of the tropes.
Speaking for myself, I have an (incredibly) rising anger and distain for Israel, not to mention my own comfortable and agnostic or apathetic fellow citizens as they watch the slaughter* of tens of thousands and the utter demolition of their land. If I was forced to choose, I’d be defending Palestinians, and it had nothing to do with my schooling.
*Remember the IDF is careful not to allow coverage of what has become the mundane destruction and loss of life and we HERE IN SOHUM support or enable that. (“But WHO murdered that interviewee?”) So I’m giving most Americans and their hearts a pass.
IDF manipulating public opinion via curating & murdering journalists and Israel doing political manipulation via AIPAC and DMFI. Wait, I’m doing an antisemitism aren’t I? Was it my schooling or am I listening to Democracy Now and Jewish Voices for Peace (not to mention the UN or global community outside of the U.S. or Israel or the leftist politicians who DMFI was targeting even pre-10/07. )
I wonder, is DMFI (Democratic Majority for Israel) also subject to the Israel self-defense rules? I.e left-wing or Democratic socialist principles be damned when running against one of THOSE (hateful) Democrats.
February 2, 2024 at 5:25 am
Anonymous
In the meantime, Zelensky is getting very upset that the jews are getting all his attention……
February 2, 2024 at 5:34 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
The sheer amount of death and infrastructure destruction and on top of that the catastrophic damage to the environment, which affects Gaza first and foremost but also the entire planet
This is why the IDF is killing any journalist that flies a drone over Gaza, they don’t want the world to witness the sheer scale of the genocide…🇵🇸💔
https://x.com/ibjiyongi/status/1747104618750824698
Just so you don’t have to respond anon, here is the first subtweet.
Was there any other outcome after Hamas decided to run into their ratholes after 10/7 instead of meeting the IDF in open battle?
But it’s the scale, the proportion of the unjust response that the IDF doesn’t want people to digest. What if they did? Might it spark anger? Are schools really needed when fellow humans around the globe are watching a powerful nation with $900,000 anti-missle devices on their first-class tanks do this to a helpless and desperate population?
February 2, 2024 at 5:43 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
Amazing statistic buried in this discussion with Emily Dische-Becker. Jews comprise less than 1% of Germany’s population. They comprise close to 30% of the people cancelled in recent years by state-funded German institutions for alleged antisemitism
https://x.com/peterbeinart/status/1753216787678744670
🤔
February 2, 2024 at 5:49 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
And prior to posting I now see we have an antisemitic rant overnight. I’m sorry about that Mitch an Eric and my preference of course would be to just delete that sh$t but there is value in leaving it up for all to see too.
February 2, 2024 at 6:39 am
Mitch
Jon,
The textbooks used in teaching Palestinian children speak for themselves.
That’s an interesting result about Jewish German anti-Semitism.
February 2, 2024 at 6:52 am
Mitch
Thinking about Jews now living in Germany. I confess, it boggles my mind. I mean, why would survivors have stayed? Why would any Jew move there to live?
I remember how incredibly upset my mother was when I went there for three days, for work. I never told her that in college I worked for a nice German postdoc. Even though I think I understand that today’s Germans had nothing to do with the Holocaust, I don’t understand how an emotionally “normal” Jew could willingly move in that place. I’d imagine Jews in Germany would not be emotionally normal. How many Blacks would willingly move to, say, Wilmington NC?
February 2, 2024 at 7:24 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
And, OK Mitch, I’ll bite. Please link to your source of understanding for Arab schools because remember your original framing, Arabs, and that’s what interests me more than cherry-picked surviving texts from remaining detritus from a razed Gaza if that happens to be the evidence d’jour.
And as far as (probably) PA’s point, “innate” was not the point. Learned (from schools) hate is fine as far as the point I was trying to make, but that can’t be it either if antisemitism is generational. Not from schools anyway, I’d start, speaking from my own Turkish heritage & familial heritage, with the families and that has to do with the wars and conflicts going back generations. And, well Mitch, you have your side of the story of who is simply defending themselves and who is teaching, rather than experiencing, hatred.
February 2, 2024 at 7:32 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
16% of Wilmington is African American. I can think of a host of reasons to move there, family or spouse being top on the list. Not all people experience a societal hatred or bias or discrimination the same way. Different tolerances, coping mechanisms and world views to start. Another thing, if I was an activist and wanted to change the world and was young and saw a need, I’d want to move where I could do the most good. I’m a ‘f*ck that sh*t” kinda guy and want to change things, generally speaking and if I can fit it into a sustainable lifestyle.
February 2, 2024 at 7:34 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
And fwiw and full disclosure I don’t understand the significance of Wilmington other than it’s in a Confederate state.
February 2, 2024 at 7:44 am
Mitch
Palestinian textbooks (there are more results from earlier):
https://www.timesofisrael.com/unrwa-textbooks-still-include-hate-antisemitism-despite-pledge-to-remove-watchdog/
https://www.timesofisrael.com/eu-parliament-slams-hateful-palestinian-textbooks-threatens-funding-freeze/
History of Wilmington, NC:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55648011
I know there is a substantial Black population there. My assumption is that many were too impoverished to move. And, yes, I can understand someone moving there to be with family. I just don’t understand how, generation after generation, people stayed.
February 2, 2024 at 7:52 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
Here is the latest example of this trope, Edwin Black used it on Becks show. You can find it 1 hr & 37 minutes into Beck’s 01/31/24 podcast.
53% of their work (UNRA) teaches kids, mathematics by saying you have six Jews you kill three how many are left?
February 2, 2024 at 7:56 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
I just don’t understand how, generation after generation, people stayed.
Because it’s home Mitch and it’s as much their home as anyone else’s. That’s how I’d feel anyway, fuck the haters and I’m going to fight the bastards, not with arms but with the Constitution. It brings legit meaning to life and brings light to life which the next generation will be able to enjoy better than I would have been able to.
At the same time I’d blame or judge no one if they chose to leave.
February 2, 2024 at 7:57 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
And I see that’s your source too, the point of this story isn’t the schools or hatred but defunding UNRA. If you weren’t aware.
February 2, 2024 at 8:09 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
Here’s more from Edwin on Beck’s show…
We know at least 10%,of the workers of UNRA, at least 10%, are related in someway to Palestinian Islamic Jihad, the armed brigades, Hamas, any of the 13 terroristic groups. You can’t be a member of UNRA in Gaza, without the permission & participation of Hamas. In addition, hundreds of thousands, hundreds of thousands of youngsters have been trained by UNRA summer camps to murder & kill and dispose of Jewish individuals. In other words, what they learn to do for summer camp is not canoe or build fires, they actually learned military maneuvers.
February 2, 2024 at 8:13 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
At least one thing that seems to have been lost in translation in this conversation from the start is we are not talking about schools in the traditional sense, like I’d ask my family about, but “summer schools” or extracurricular schools.
And I wonder why simple pleasures like canoeing or roasting s’mores wasn’t on the curriculum.
February 2, 2024 at 8:16 am
Mitch
Jon,
As best I can tell, when you are presented with evidence, you dismiss it because it is used by people who disagree with you. If that’s the case, what’s the value of evidence? Do you have anything to demonstrate that the evidence is false, beyond that it is used by those with whom you disagree?
Your attitude about staying and fighting the bastards is interesting. After six million people in some way related to me had been killed by a society, I’d have little willingness to remain in that society and fight.
February 2, 2024 at 8:22 am
Mitch
It’s not a matter of war, either. Six million people were killed by Germany solely because of their identity as Jews, not because of any threat they posed. Stay and fight? Or recognize that the people of a country hold or held a literally unbelievable degree of hatred for people like me, and choose to live a life elsewhere, rather than remain a tiny minority in a place filled with bad memories?
On evidence and Glenn Beck: what is the point of presenting evidence to someone who judges it based not on its truth or falsity, or on the reputation of its sources, but on who else has presented it?
If that’s how you judge evidence, then any evidence you don’t like can be dismissed by noting that it has also been presented by some person with whom you disagree. But perhaps they disagree with you because they’ve seen that evidence, and you have not?
February 2, 2024 at 8:34 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
Mitch, you brought up Wilmington and I was addressing that. The Holocaust is unique, uniquely distressing and abhorrent in all of human existence and any reaction to it is understandable.
February 2, 2024 at 9:12 am
Henchman Of Justice
EK does not have to be jewish to be a jew sympathizer… same goes for anyone else not jewish, but sympathizing jews…
… really, not everyone has to agree…kinda like not having to be trans to act out like a girl sympathizing on behalf of trans-types and their usages of hormone pills…
jew sympathizers are typically “face-pulling posers”… with zippo real world relevance or attraction… likely from all the twisted tongue rhetoric…
… Me, I recognize the jew fight is not my fight, nor should be America’s fight… but border politics let them jews into USA, so now the Jewish garbage is domesticated!
February 2, 2024 at 9:16 am
Mitch
A very specific example from a study of Palestinian Arabic language textbooks. There are many descriptions of understandable Palestinian interpretations of events, but there are also outright lies. Palestinian children are being taught to hate Israel and to hate Jews. To some extent, this is made easy — all that is necessary is to quote Islamic and Christian holy texts. This is done also by right-wing Christian fundamentalists, though they don’t rely on Islamic texts but only the New Testament.
“This presentation features two striking elements that
presumably aim to present violence on the part of Al-Mughrabi
and her commandos as fair and therefore justified. First, the
account is embedded within the narrative of the anti-colonial
struggle against an occupying power, which can be explained in
the light of the history textbooks’ habitual equation of Zionism
with colonialism. ‘Resistance’ and ‘liberation’ are catchwords
presenting ideals that supposedly justify the use of violence
against the actual (France) or alleged (Israel) colonial power.
It is women who are given prominent portrayals as symbols
of anti-colonial resistance, leading the ‘ranks of shuhadā’,
wounded and prisoners’ – Djamila Bouhired in Algeria and
Dalal Al-Mughrabi for the PLO.
“The second justification for the violence committed by the
commando operatives in Israel (camouflaged here as ‘on
the Palestinian coast’) occurs in the characterisation of the
Israeli fatalities as ‘more than thirty Zionist soldiers’. The
misidentification of the civilian casualties as Israeli (‘Zionist’)
soldiers has a twofold function: (i) It portrays Al-Mughrabi’s
operation, which was ultimately a failure (it was intended to
facilitate an exchange of hostages for Palestinian detainees
in Israeli prisons), as an heroic military achievement in which
a courageous woman sacrifices herself for greater ideals
(liberation from colonial oppression). (ii) It also seeks to
justify the use of lethal violence since – in this reading – the
opponents would appear to be armed forces, equally trained
and prepared to employ violence. Another factor that may have
influenced this ‘re-declaration’ of victims as combatants may be
an awareness of the shamefulness of presenting the violence
committed by one’s own side against unarmed civilians.”
February 2, 2024 at 9:24 am
Henchman Of Justice
Mitchboi can’t handle the fact that jews from Judea are the ultimate sinners!
Judeans (original Jews) were the originators of creating hate toward all other israelites…Palestinians are BC & AD israelites too!!
February 2, 2024 at 9:43 am
Henchman Of Justice
Jews are hypocrites…
want support both ways…as aggressors and non-victims…
…whether in Europe, Asia or Lands of the Israelites…
…maybe southern jews should finally accept their poor diaspora actions and stop blaming northern Israelites for Judeans being diaspora culture invaders…
…Southern Jews lost as Nazi Judeans in a religious showdown, so Nazi Jews invaded other cultures to specifically beat upon others instead of crawling back to Judah…
… Military and Jews are synonymous!
February 2, 2024 at 12:10 pm
Jon Yalcinkaya
No idea what this means, but yes, sources are important Mitch. Here is the source.
https://transatlanticinstitute.org/press-releases/ajc-urges-eu-end-incitement-palestinian-textbooks
I’m not disputing there are texts and schools I would find abhorrent. My guess is those aren’t the text nor the schools children of Palestinian professionals go to. My argument wouldn’t be to justify or distract from making Gaza a parking lot but to, as liberals should, find ways to encourage texts you and I wouldn’t be abhorrent and that begins by not drafting in the wake of our, what do you call them again?, friends on the right whether they live in Israel or the U.S..
February 2, 2024 at 12:15 pm
Jon Yalcinkaya
How do you change the texts of the children in Gaza?
This is one way. Better be prepared to do the same for all other Muslim countries too tho. Or make sure they are never the military equal (or better) of you.
https://x.com/ytirawi/status/1743411493813575711
February 2, 2024 at 12:29 pm
Mitch
Jon,
The reason Gaza is being turned into a parking lot is the Hamas attack and the way in which Hamas turned Gaza into one big military asset, at the expense of Gazans. The reason Hamas has people so anxious to engage in attacking Israel is that Gazans grow up hating Israel and Jews.
They grow up hating Israel and Jews because of what they see and because of what they are taught. What they see is often a result of prior attacks by Palestinians on Israel, and the resulting Israeli responses. What they are taught is that there is no justification for Israel’s existence and that violence is a sensible response.
Israeli Arabs attending university in Israel probably also would love to see a Palestinian state, but don’t devote their lives to raping, murdering, and hostage-taking other Israelis, as some Gazans have.
So, if you want to prevent Gaza or other Palestinian territories from being turned into a parking lot, textbooks matter. It is totally appropriate to teach Palestinian history from a Palestinian point of view. But if children are taught that achieving martyrdom by murdering, raping, and hostage-taking of civilian Israelis is what they should do, they will do it.
Israel once had a large peace movement. Hamas destroyed that, as Hamas has destroyed Gaza. I think most of us who love Israel would very much like to see Palestinians living happy lives, both for their own sakes but also for Israel’s. It is possible to live a happy life even when feeling that a great injustice has been done to your people. It is not possible, IMO, to lead a happy life when you are taught from a young age that your purpose in life is to kill others.
February 2, 2024 at 12:31 pm
Mitch
If you tell me what it is where you have no idea what “this” means, I’ll be glad to clarify. The text I quoted was from a Palestinian textbook, as extracted in an EU report on Palestinian textbooks. https://www.gei.de/forschung/projekte/analyse-palaestinensischer-schulbuecher-paltex
February 2, 2024 at 12:34 pm
Mitch
And, yes, when a group of nations are dedicated to destroying you, self-defense means never allowing them the capability to do that. In some hypothetical future when your own future existence is assured, and these nations are no longer devoted to your destruction, it doesn’t matter that much that they achieve the means to destroy you, though you still need to worry that their attitudes may revert.
This seems pretty straightforward. I don’t know why it is hard to understand.
February 2, 2024 at 12:43 pm
Mitch
> what do you call them again?, friends on the right
If you are unable to acknowledge that it is possible to be a right winger with reasonable arguments for a right wing position, arguments that you can respect as understandable while disagreeing with them, then you must not have much confidence in your own position.
That’s a totally different thing than believing false facts that someone like trump produces. It’s just an acknowledgement of a basic democratic principle, and the core justification of democracy: that different people can come together from different, honorable positions, and, with good will, negotiate a good outcome rather than resort to killing one another.
February 2, 2024 at 4:20 pm
Anonymous
I salute your patience, Mitch. I’ve pretty much given up on those who insist on portraying this war as evil Israeli genocides vs innocent Palestinians, while handwaving away Hamas with a dismissive “Hamas, Hamas, Hamas.”
But I’m sure they don’t perceive that they come off that way and honestly believe that they are simply standing up for good and justice, so I salute your extraordinary patience in trying to offer perspective they seem determined to shut their eyes and ears to.
February 2, 2024 at 6:20 pm
bolithio
Lets just go all in with the premise Palestinian are breed and taught to Hate Israelis.
The real question is why. Does the history of how they came to be in Gaza, and the life they live there at all influence their attitudes towards Israel?
What would happen, if they where actually granted a state, or more simply, given equal rights and opportunity? Life free of apartheid. And no, they have never been given this. The ultimate gaslight of Hamas – who Israel helped rise to power – only to then impose crippling sanctions and forced austerity on millions, only to wreak havoc on Israelies and Gazans alike.
The only thing that has never been tried, the terrifying idea of allowing fellow humans to live with dignity. Dehumanization, containment, diets, mowing the lawn was always destined to fail.
What would happen if the apartheid and occupation ended?
What happened in South Africa? What happened in Ireland? Did the violence continue? Did they use their self determination and freedom to wipe their oppressors off the map? That was the fear. But like most self reports, that delusion never came to pass. And for at least those parts of the world, life improved for everybody.
February 2, 2024 at 9:28 pm
bolithio
To say text books are teaching Palestinian to rape Israelis is showing how far your contempt for those people are Mitch. Do you have the same outrage for the cases of rape of Palestinians in detention? There have been many people speaking out about this for years and years. Guess how those investigations went? And if they are being raped, how should they respond to Israel? Parking lot you say? Are standards to be applied equally in a rules based international order?
And since we are in random facts mode, lets talk about how rape is treated in Israel.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2020-11-24/ty-article/.premium/92-percent-of-rape-investigations-in-israel-are-closed-without-charges/0000017f-e1d0-d9aa-afff-f9d8c3450000
None of this excuses Hamas war crimes. Nor does making shit up about their text books. Nor does a text book, or past crimes, of anyone, excuse current, ongoing crime’s.
February 3, 2024 at 8:45 am
Mitch
Rape is despicable. It is more so when it occurs in an institution that has custodial responsibility over people.
The essence of bigotry is holding one group to a different standard than others.
Rape in England and Wales: https://www.theguardian.com/law/2019/jul/26/rape-cases-charge-summons-prosecutions-victims-england-wales
Sexual violence in American prisons: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2438589/
I think the report I’ve shared on Palestinian textbooks was clear. But if anyone thinks I was asserting that they encourage rape, they’ve misunderstood. I’d encourage people interested in the textbook problem to read the EU report, and other reports. Perhaps they could also ponder the acceptability, in American schools, of a math textbook which taught percentages by asking questions like “if there are 82 Chinese people in your town of 5000, how many would you need to kill to reduce your town’s Chinese population to below one percent.”
February 3, 2024 at 9:00 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
Me… what do you call them again?, friends on the right?
You…If you are unable to acknowledge that it is possible to be a right winger with reasonable arguments for a right wing position, arguments that you can respect as understandable while disagreeing with them, then you must not have much confidence in your own position.
That’s a totally different thing than believing false facts that someone like trump produces. It’s just an acknowledgement of a basic democratic principle, and the core justification of democracy: that different people can come together from different, honorable positions, and, with good will, negotiate a good outcome rather than resort to killing one another.
I’m not the one using the f word Mitch and I’m not the one bringing up hearts teetering between good and evil. You know my position on the goodness of people. How many millions will vote for Trump? How many of those are they fascists?
Is Glenn Beck a fascist? Rush Limbaugh? How many Republicans in Congress that, like you, would characterize Israel as in a defensive stance even a the parking-lot Gaza killing unprecedented numbers of people are fascists because that time of the four year cycle is right around the corner and that word is going to start being flung around a lot, especially by neoliberal Democrats who don’t want people to see just how similar their positions are to Republicans.
And of course the refrain will be… what’s wrong with YOU, you purist? Can’t you see there are honorable people you don’t want immigrants to have access to Medicaid or for there to be national bans on abortion at 15 weeks?
That’s been my point all along, it’s why I listen to Limbaugh and Beck, their audiences are full of good people who are being lied to about the nature of their political opponents not to mention government and policy. And yes, there are coherent and honorable arguments to restrict medical coverage to immigrants, and restricting abortions, but they are wrong, *if* the goal is to treat others with the respect & dignity & independence you’d like to be treated with if your roles/religions/genders/race/nationality/wealth were reversed.
February 3, 2024 at 9:32 am
Mitch
Jon,
I’m not clear if your “f” word is friend or fascist. Fascist is a pretty well defined term, except, as with many political concepts, the edges are blurry. trump is a fascist. MAGA is driven by the things that, historically, drove fascist movements.
Plenty of good people become fascists, seeking meaning in life from something larger than themselves. The symbol in fascist Italy was a fasces, a bundle of sticks holding an axe head; the idea is that individual sticks will break but the bundle will not.
Fascism takes people’s desire to be inside a club, finds a convenient group of people to serve as enemy, teaches the insiders that bullying is OK if its done to the enemy, and glorifies the club as something of more importance than the individuals of which it is composed. The club, in the end, means the club president, not the membership. You get to stay in the club at the club president’s whim.
That is why it concerns me that Americans think of fascists as goose-stepping soldiers with villainous German accents. That caricature hides the real appeal that fascism will hold for many people who see democracy floundering. (Of course, they won’t call it fascism and won’t see it as fascist; that doesn’t make it something else.)
I know you see the goodness of people. That is why I find it confusing that you use, as an argument against evidence presented, the fact that people “outside the club” have also used the same evidence. It is simply a non-argument. Instead of saying A, B, and C think P, and I usually disagree with A, B, and C, so P must be wrong, just examine the evidence for and against P.
I am as worried about fascism of the left as I am about fascism of the right. There’s a lot of bullying on the left, taking the form of holier-than-thou purity tests and black and white thinking. When you find yourself seeking to compel the behavior of others, it’s a good idea to ask when and where such compulsion is justified.
Want an example of when compulsion is good? Fine. Preventing someone from shooting you is a good reason to compel their behavior. Knowing what’s right and knowing they’re wrong is often a terrible reason for compelling behavior.
February 3, 2024 at 9:34 am
Mitch
And, Jon, I know it’s your point directed at others. Direct it at yourself as well.
February 3, 2024 at 10:00 am
Mitch
Why the Gaza Strip became occupied territory:
https://www.britannica.com/event/Six-Day-War
February 3, 2024 at 10:57 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
Thank you Mitch, I believe I do. I’ll stand with Katie @sexualityscholar, Corey Robin, Peter Beinart, Jewish Voices for Peace, Amy Goodman and hundreds of thousands of other Jews in Israel and around the globe who can see very clearly the inhumanity of the U.S. & Israeli policy in Gaza. Too bad there are fewer constituencies like Deerborn, MI in our country to speak truth to power.
February 3, 2024 at 11:06 am
Anonymous
The bottom line is Israel’s bloodthirsty buffoonery and bungling ever since Oct. 7th and before will backfire on Israel’s brainwashed backers worldwide, and as a result moneyhungry Jewish pigs passing as politicians will become an endangered species come election time. Owning all of the newspapers, TV networks, online social media platforms, etc. in this world won’t save those lying sacks of shit now!
February 3, 2024 at 11:12 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
Yes, Mitch I was referring to fascist as the F word. What should we call people that vote for Trump I wonder. Are these the people you speak of that I’m not understanding?
And btw, I plug this podcast a lot and I will again. It’s my salvation these days as the rest of the media is caught of in this frenzy of violence against 2 million defenseless, powerless and now destitute people. I’m going back and listening to their archives.
The podcast is with two incredibly smart and well scholars of US conservatism. Matthew Sittman (a gay practicing Catholic, and former conservative fwiw) and Sam Adler Bell (a Jewish man from a leftist NYC background). The podcast is called Know Your Enemy (they are fair to conservatives looking for understanding, and “enemy” is used, if not tongue in cheek, lightly) and their latest podcast talks negatively about Trump without once resorting to the f-word.
Fascism isn’t what is in play here. It’s what Glenn Beck also uses to call us, so I doubt the efficaciousness of using the word. What is in play, very specifically, is U.S. conservativism and if you understand where we’ve been, you understand where we are sand where we might be headed much better that playing games with Glenn Beck or whomever to decide who is the REAL fascist.
https://www.dissentmagazine.org/blog/building-a-better-trump-administration/
February 3, 2024 at 11:23 am
bolithio
Certainly the how. The why?
This is being perpetuated now, that Israel must destroy Gaza, and any civilians in its way under the ‘threat of extermination’. A threat that does not exist. Hamas, or any other guerilla militant group can not do anything remotely like what Israel is doing to Gaza. We will never know trualy what could have been if not for 50 years of occupation denying Palestine right to self determination and dignity. Perhaps realtions with other Arab nations would be vastly better. Instead, following the 6-day war, Israel immediately cleared out villages and forced more people from their homes – similar to now – people who had nothing to do the conflict. Within months of the 6-day war Israel was building settlements in territories they had agreed to release following the conflict, as agreed with the international community.
40 years of illegal occupation later, the State of Israel helped bring Hamas to power, knowing full well there would be blow back, but manageable and acceptable, and end to a means – denying Palestinians a State. And cynically they know they can use Hamas attacks as justification for denying rights to Palestinians, continuing settlements, and slowing but surely annexing the all of Palestine. The links I provided earlier quoted top level officials speaking of their goals just last week.
February 3, 2024 at 12:50 pm
Henchman Of Justice
More evidence that the IDF allowed Hamas fighters to breach security, rape and murder jews…🤷♂️
https://www.npr.org/2024/02/03/1228857501/iraq-condemns-us-airstrikes-retaliation
“We had information that the area would be bombed a day or two before,” said the mayor, Turki Muhammad Khalaf. He said many of the residents near the base had evacuated their homes as a precaution.
February 3, 2024 at 2:18 pm
Mitch
Jon, I truly don’t know what to call those who would vote for Trump in 2024. It is a mystery to me that they exist
February 4, 2024 at 5:28 am
Anonymous
mitch….you can call them what they are : Patriots. It’s no surprise that it’s a concept that you’re not familiar with…..
February 4, 2024 at 7:21 am
Anonymous
In regards to Trump voters or anyone or anything you disagree with. If you can’t understand your opponent’s views you don’t have a clue as how to win them over.
Bernie during one of the last primaries did a town hall on FOX. He got huge pushback for doing it. His response was he had to try to get his view across and to show he was open to listening. He ended up getting a standing ovation from a hand picked fox audience over his views on Medicare for all. That shows there is opportunity to get things done.
Compare that to Hillary’s “ deplorables”.
The divide, is more made up than real. It’s designed to keep us hating the other.
Whether that’s Trump or Biden or Jews or hamas or Iran or Ukraine or Russia or China, the list goes on and on. Fall into that trap if you want.
February 4, 2024 at 9:52 am
Mitch
After some thought, I guess I’d call them people who knowingly or unknowingly have decided they’d prefer a fascist leader to democracy. I think that makes them fascists.
February 4, 2024 at 10:01 am
Mitch
I do see the problem with using a word, when people won’t believe it of themselves because they hold a cartoon view of it. I remember how dismissive I was in a medical appointment many years back when I saw I was obese. I didn’t look like my concept of obese, but the description was correct. Once I figured that out, I could act on it.
When you choose to view yourself as a victim of a designated scapegoat group or groups, use bullying tactics against outsiders, view the masculine as superior to the feminine, seek a divisive leader, and have contempt for academia and nuance, there’s a word that describes you.
February 4, 2024 at 12:31 pm
Jon Yalcinkaya
Is this a fascist movie I wonder? It’s free on YouTube and probably horrible & cringe-worthy but I’m going to give it a viewing before listening to the Know your Enemy review of the movie. If anyone is interested in a subscription to KYE, especially you Mitch, I’d be feeling to Venmo $5 for the first month’s subscription. Most shows are free, but the bonus episodes are not and this is one of those bonus episodes.
February 4, 2024 at 12:33 pm
Jon Yalcinkaya
Just as a reminder of why this is important, it’s the fascists that you all are voting with, in Israel & the U.S., to get the large majorities to pass legislation funding (US) and waging (Israel) the despicable and ongoing war in Gaza.
February 5, 2024 at 7:49 am
Henchman Of Justice
Ukraine funding too Jonboi… USA is a “con-Country”…
…USA voters are agitators…
…USA voters rather fund other countries to kill each other…
…USA voters rather give away taxes collected, to live like shit, then complain about why local government and local communities can’t ever fix shit!
Voters, like Jonboi, vote… that is what they do… they know…
February 5, 2024 at 8:00 am
Henchman Of Justice
https://a57.foxnews.com/static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2024/02/686/384/MAPX_ISRAEL_AT_WAR_AT_LEAST_168_ATTACKS_ON_US_FORCES_020124_02-1.png?ve=1&tl=1
Why the IDF allowed Hamas to breach the security zone to rape and kill jews… expand the conflict once again…
February 5, 2024 at 8:02 am
Henchman Of Justice
10/7 was an inside job like 9/11!
February 6, 2024 at 1:58 pm
Henchman Of Justice
And the USA lies keep coming… Israel and USA continue to lie to the world!
White House National Security Council spokesperson John Kirby apologized Tuesday for falsely saying last week that Iraqi officials were notified before a series of coordinated air strikes.
Kirby initially said on Friday that the bombing of targets related to Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps inside Iraqi borders was communicated to national leaders beforehand.
He was forced to retract this claim after State Department deputy spokesperson Vedant Patel confirmed this was not accurate and that Iraqi leaders were not informed until after the strikes.
February 7, 2024 at 10:35 pm
Anonymous
Just wanted to share this, and I’d appreciate any thoughts you may have in response. Alon Mizrahi is a Mizrahi (Arab) Jew who grew up in Israel, served in the Israeli military, and now lives in the U.S. He wrote this thoughtful piece about his evolution in thinking about Zionism as a Mizrahi Jew: “MAYBE IT’S TIME WE STARTED TALKING ABOUT HOW TERRIBLE ZIONISM IS FOR JEWS, TOO”
https://easternoak.co/maybe-its-time-we-started-talking-about-how-terrible-zionism-is-for-jews-too/
February 8, 2024 at 7:05 am
Henchman Of Justice
Zionism, all anyone needs to know:
Theodore Herzl, a jewish immigrant in Austro-Hungary, likely from ancestors diaspora…
…knew first-hand how much europeans did not like jews, so anti-Semitic became a valid thing…
… so, Herzl was likely convinced that jews were invaders through no fault of their own (ha ha), and they could leave by getting europeans to finance and socially approve of building an area to remove the jews into, but Rothschild declined …
…problem was, these nation building allies conspired to steal land through any means possible, so time was taken…
… but the time taken was too long and incomplete, and the rest is history… certain europeans could not take it anymore (like Network 1976).
[He argued that the best way to avoid antisemitism in Europe was to create this independent Jewish state. ~ wiki]
February 8, 2024 at 7:13 am
Mitch
I imagine you are asking Eric for his opinion, Anon, but here’s mine. What a steaming load of crap. It’s as if he is unable to notice any history of attacks, only “mysterious” responses.
February 8, 2024 at 7:59 am
Henchman Of Justice
Mitch, you want open borders, this is the crap you deserve, no denying…
February 8, 2024 at 9:17 am
Anonymous
HoJ,
For the record, I’m for jailing the CEO of any corporation which relies, whether directly or through sub-sub-subcontractors, on undocumented and exploited laborers. Laws to that effect, enforced, would eliminate the immigration crisis in ten minutes. Anyone who continued to risk their life to get to America could be assumed to be in desperation, and worthy of food and shelter provided by our government. Our government could then set up camps for them, similar to CCC camps from the depression.
February 8, 2024 at 9:22 am
Anonymous
I’d support laws jailing the CEO of any corporation employing undocumented workers, whether directly or through sub-sub-sub-contractors. Similarly, I’d be for taxing any imports generated through sub-US-minimum wage labor by corporations acting outside the United States. Such taxes should be distributed to the foreign workers who’ve been exploited. If such taxes were in place, US industry would once again be competitive.
Such solutions are not within the range of political discussion. That is because political discussion is constrained in ways that ensure it does not challenge the accumulations of wealth and power which now rule us.
February 8, 2024 at 9:33 am
Eric Kirk
Of course that would mean that we pay 12 bucks a head for lettuce.
February 8, 2024 at 9:41 am
Mitch
The last comments were mine. I got logged out somehow. Yes, if the United States actually enforced laws preventing exploitation, our food would be much more expensive. You know what that means? It means we’re all complicit in the exploitation, not that exploitation is good.
February 8, 2024 at 9:47 am
Mitch
This is yet another thing that, IMO, the left buries its head in the sand to miss. The left is constantly ready to point the finger at the “bad guy” du jour. The problem is all of us, supporting an exploitative system. If lettuce farmed by people able to live decent lives costs $12/head, then that’s the cost of lettuce. Farming out the exploitation to corporate executives and their lawyers, or to importers relying on slave labor outside our boundaries changes nothing about our involvement.
Tolstoy, again: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/43302/43302-h/43302-h.htm#Page_278
Solzhenitsyn, again: “The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either — but right through every human heart — and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. And even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained.”
February 8, 2024 at 9:49 am
Mitch
And lest anyone believe I think myself holier-than-thou, I’m one of the worst exploiters. But I’m not willing to give up my share until we all agree to give up our shares together. Almost certainly, that’s immoral.
February 8, 2024 at 10:13 am
Eric Kirk
I would be all for government subsidies keeping the price of food down and the livelihood of farm workers up with taxes paid according to the proportionate benefit each person receives from government (since the whole purpose of government is to protect wealth, then taxes should be apportioned based upon wealth). THAT would be fair.
February 8, 2024 at 10:21 am
Mitch
Instead of government subsidies for specific purposes why not a UBI, to ensure everyone has enough money to live above the poverty level?
That would force farm employers to pay sufficient wages to their workers that their workers would take the offered jobs, even without the threat of starvation hanging over them.
Have subsidies ever not ended up lining the pockets of those wealthy and powerful enough to create or find the necessary loopholes?
February 8, 2024 at 10:22 am
Mitch
What is needed is the simplest, least gameable technique that would accomplish wealth redistribution without, as socialism would, creating a new version of aristocracy that happens to be more skewed to the academically inclined.
February 8, 2024 at 10:25 am
Mitch
And it would have to be accomplished by a movement that was unapologetic about forcing the wealthiest to lose a substantial chunk of their wealth. It probably can’t happen, but it seems like the alternative is living in a country which has turned into wealth’s big enforcer for the entire world.
February 8, 2024 at 11:29 am
Eric Kirk
Nah. Let rich people pay to keep everyone’s food prices down. Call me a socialist.
February 8, 2024 at 11:33 am
Mitch
Seriously, Eric, what is the advantage of a system that subsidizes, typically, extremely wealthy corporations, in order, theoretically, to assist people in paying for food, over a system that simply ensures all people have the resources to pay what food actually costs to produce?
February 8, 2024 at 11:42 am
bolithio
Barring being an American equivalent of samana, totally disengaged from ‘civilization’, it is impossible to not participate in ‘the system’. Are people who have little means to say, purchase only organic, fair trade products at ENF that are 10x the cost of ‘conventional’ items at grocery outlet complicit in exploitation? I dont think so.
Funny that somehow its all ‘yet another problem with the left’. The left of course being the very people who are far more likely to purchase fair trade, way more likely to be buying a local farm share, way more willing to give up some of ‘theirs’. Instead of looking where the left is pointing, lets point back at the left for some perceived hypocrisy.
February 8, 2024 at 11:44 am
Mitch
Anyone who purchases something that has been knowingly created by an exploitative system is complicit in exploitation. Even people who are for Free Palestine.
February 8, 2024 at 11:46 am
Mitch
And until we are all capable of understanding that we are where the system’s rubber meets the road, rather than being diverted into a narcissistic, satisfying ongoing game of “who’s the bad guy,” the exploitation will inevitably continue, with different groups of people on top.
February 8, 2024 at 12:24 pm
Henchman Of Justice
February 8, 2024 at 9:33 am
Eric Kirk
Of course that would mean that we pay 12 bucks a head for lettuce.
writes the guy who has no problem paying $20 an hour for minimum wage fast food service jobs, or rather the $19 big mac combo with a 2″ square ripped piece of lettuce on the burger patty…
…now, for $25 minimum wage jobs, is an opening hospital or other healthcare job that requires lots of education that costs big bucks…
…healthcare opening positions will be paying less on average than fast food workers, considering the non-investment fast food labor is not paying for ahead of hire… totally flipped out politics…
February 8, 2024 at 12:30 pm
Henchman Of Justice
… and farmers market vendors will not be charging $12 heads of lettuce… the big cities, ya, they’ll skew the data as usual… because food is not typically grown in metropolises on ag farms… but imported long distances… and ironically, it will be the LETTUCE immigrants in big cities that both cause their plight and pay for it too… just by being here in USA…
February 8, 2024 at 12:56 pm
Henchman Of Justice
Mitchboi maybe shops for groceries at that special shop of horrors, where all food, produce, etc… are labeled with consumer protection full disclosure statements…
…”that the consumer is participating in scab immigrant exploitation when purchasing this product…”
February 8, 2024 at 11:44 am
Mitch
Anyone who purchases something that has been knowingly created by an exploitative system is complicit in exploitation. Even people who are for Free Palestine.
February 8, 2024 at 12:57 pm
Henchman Of Justice
Like I write,
DON’T VOTE, WASTE OF TIME…