Good discussion of the normalization of violence in American politics and the rise of the “Dirty Harry Factor”
April 6, 2024 in Uncategorized | by Eric Kirk
April 6, 2024 in Uncategorized | by Eric Kirk
Eric Kirk on We discuss the Cohen testimony… | |
Eric Kirk on A read-off challenge on the Is… | |
Eric Kirk on One of the best commencement s… | |
Anonymous on “Jewish people are nasty… | |
Anonymous on One of the best commencement s… | |
Mitch on A read-off challenge on the Is… | |
Anonymous on The “banned” versi… | |
Mitch on “Jewish people are nasty… | |
Anonymous on A read-off challenge on the Is… | |
Anonymous on We discuss the Cohen testimony… | |
Eric Kirk on A read-off challenge on the Is… | |
Mitch on “Jewish people are nasty… | |
Jon Yalcinkaya on “Jewish people are nasty… | |
Mitch on “Jewish people are nasty… | |
Mitch on “Jewish people are nasty… |
186 comments
Comments feed for this article
April 6, 2024 at 1:35 pm
bolithio
How long can these pundits keep repeating this same cope over and over again? The murder of World Kitchen aid workers was not a mistake, nor was it anything new. This is the “turning point”? Really? Why? Prior to this latest horrific murder of the aid workers, over 200 aid workers had already been murdered. Over 600 doctors and nurses had already been murdered. Over 150 ambulances have been hit by drones. Every single hospital has been attacked. Over 15,000 children are dead. Hello! Its painfully obvious what is happening.
April 6, 2024 at 1:42 pm
Anonymous
It’s obvious when you’ve always seen through the lens of “Palestinians good/Israel bad.” But in the real world where the conflict and its history is much more complicated, you’re going to find more nuanced discussions which maybe frustrating when the answers seem so clear to you.
April 6, 2024 at 2:04 pm
Eric Kirk
NATO head working hard to Trump-proof aid to Ukraine.
https://thehill.com/policy/international/4574642-nato-stoltenberg-ukraine-aid-europe-trump-us/
April 6, 2024 at 2:05 pm
Eric Kirk
And another mass shooting in Florida.
https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/4578627-two-dead-7-injured-in-miami-outdoor-mall-shooting/
April 6, 2024 at 8:03 pm
bolithio
Watching people attempt to use nuance in order to deny, ignore, or do nothing about a genocide is frustrating. Its also a disgusting insult to what people can see with their own eyes. Viewed through the lens of bombing hospitals and ambulances bad – allowing people to eat and drink water good.
April 6, 2024 at 8:54 pm
Eric Kirk
I’m just curious – was the bombing of Dresden genocide?
April 6, 2024 at 10:03 pm
mdavid
Eric —
The most famous book about Dresden is still Kurt Vonnegut’s novel, Slaughterhouse-Five. Vonnegut, who was a POW in the city during those fateful days and nights, pondered the fact that his account of the attack made him wealthy and famous, saying ‘the Dresden atrocity… was so meaningless, finally, that only one person on the entire planet got any benefit from it. I am that person.’
https://www.history.co.uk/article/was-the-destruction-of-dresden-an-allied-war-crime
April 7, 2024 at 12:06 am
Eric Kirk
It was horrible and pointless. And it was a huge war crime. Arguably mass murder.
But was it genocide?
April 7, 2024 at 4:02 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
Eric, how many times do you think you’ve whindged about using the word “genocide” on SoHum vs how many times you’ve stood up to what Israel is doing?
Which one deserves the most criticism and why? Have you been doing your part?
April 7, 2024 at 4:05 am
Just Watchin
He did by himself what it took 3 democrat presidents to do…..
https://www.aol.com/news/trump-says-50-million-raised-101551491.html
April 7, 2024 at 4:07 am
Just Watchin
looks like mitchie has already found his alternate identity…..
April 7, 2024 at 4:27 am
Just Watchin
And another mass shooting/murder in california….
https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/04/us/four-dead-california-king-city-party-shooting/index.html
April 7, 2024 at 7:40 am
Eric Kirk
So Jon – was Dresden an act of genocide?
April 7, 2024 at 7:41 am
bolithio
“I’m just curious – was the bombing of Dresden genocide”
I dont know. How does the answer to that question factor into your anylisis of the ongoing Gaza genocide?
I double dare anyone to watch this video and tell me what is happening is not a genocide.
April 7, 2024 at 7:53 am
Anonymous
Reminder: Hamas recently rejected the Israeli offer of a ceasefire and a hostages-for-prisoners exchange which would have required Hamas to release 40 of the innocent Israelis they kidnapped when they started this war on 10/7, in exchange for Israel releasing over 700 Palestinian prisoners, many of them convicted of violent attacks on Israelis.
Galaxy Brain Take: Why won’t those evil Israelis agree to a ceasefire!?!?
April 7, 2024 at 10:37 am
Just Watchin
Strikes me as a blueprint for Gaza…….
April 7, 2024 at 9:13 pm
Eric Kirk
It’s horrible and it’s a war crime. It is not genocide. Genocide does not mean “bad” or “very bad” or “extremely bad” or “criminal” or “mass murder” or “horrific.” Genocide has a very particular meaning.
April 8, 2024 at 3:57 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
Your point is, it seems to me, that because the denominator of Palestinians or Muslims of that region of the Middle East is so much greater that the numerator, 33,000 slaughtered and counting, that you’ve taken out your calculator, pushed your glasses back to your forehead and determined that what’s “horrific”, in other words what is worth debating, is some people are using the “g” word, even in the face of the utter annihilation of the Gaza stirred with a country in control that does not seem to care if the denominator remaining gets fed.
What about “genocidal”, can that be used as we don’t know the result? How many of Israel’s nukes would have to be used before we could use that word?
https://x.com/davidklion/status/1777040080843989458
April 8, 2024 at 4:05 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
But to answer your question, no I don’t think it’s genocide. How many would have to die before YOU would call it genocide Eric? Even if all two million Gazans died, if the Palestinians in the West Bank were allowed to flourish would that be genocide? Where exactly is the line drawn between ethnic cleaning and genocide and why is it we are being asked to review international law rather than looking at what Zionism is doing to it’s neighbors, in Zionism’s name, and allowing people to use appropriately emotional language to describe what they see & feel.
April 8, 2024 at 7:08 am
Anonymous
Genocide has a very particular meaning.
I’ll accept the The United Nations Office on Genocide definition from the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. Take the two minute diversion. Seems to me Israel’s actions meet that definition.
April 8, 2024 at 7:14 am
Eric Kirk
No, it’s not about the number. It’s about the intention. Israel’s intention is to destroy Hamas. Hamas is a point you don’t want to think about, but it was Hamas that started this thing. It’s Hamas that they are after.
April 8, 2024 at 8:12 am
Henchman Of Justice
Hamas started “this thing”…
… lol EK, that is moot descriptive analysis by a progressive agitator…
… IDF let Hamas in like USA’s South border now does with all the eye-popping chinks exhibited for miles…
April 8, 2024 at 8:25 am
bolithio
This rhetorical response that “you just dont want to think about Hamas” is bullshit. What does Hamas have to do with over 100 air strikes on ambulances? What does Hamas have to do with gunning down people trying to get flour? What does Hamas have to do with gunning down people waving white flags?
In the first few weeks, sure, we could take it at face value that the intention is to “destroy hamas”. Yet by December, and ever since, it has been very clear the scope of the Gaza offensive was much broader than “destroying hamas”. The evidence of Genocide is in plain view, from the images coming out of Gaza, Palestinian reporting from gaza, the hundreds of videos posted by soldiers doing war crimes, the hundreds of on the record statements of Israeli officials from all aspects of government, along with the IDF run propaganda channels on every social media platform. Its not like this is some conspiracy. I swear its only a argument that liberals are having with themselves – who just cant deal with the reality of what Israel has become – a fascist state who is actively ethnically cleansing Gaza with US weapons.
April 8, 2024 at 8:52 am
Eric Kirk
It’s what’s referred to as “scorched earth” tactics to defeat a guerrilla force and it’s callous. But the callousness is indifference to civilian casualties, not purposeful. If the intent was to kill Palestinian civilians, hundreds of thousands would be dead by now. You know this. But the hyperbole supports the narrative. Palestinians good/Israel bad – don’t think about Hamas.
April 8, 2024 at 12:32 pm
Anonymous
we actually don’t know how many are dead.
the organization that did this is long gone along with the morgues and hospitals and doctors that actually did the work and reporting. The death total could be well over 100,000. And so it’s clear. The recording of a death required a body, no body, not counted. How many 10’s or hundreds of thousands are dead in the rubble?
There are different ways to kill, not all are kinetic or fast.
Death by starvation, lack of medical supplies, lack of medicine, infection, lack of power, contaminated water, destruction of every hospital, hundreds if not thousands of doctors and nurses and medical personnel.
numbers are being discussed by medical professionals that even if food and aid entered in full amounts, 60-100,000 will die from the above effects.
A mass war crime and the ICJ very much thinks it’s genocide. The best lawyers in the world are saying this. But you all know better.
Dresden was one of the reasons there is a UN and a security council and the ICJ and war crime tribunals and all the other agencies.
so that it won’t happen again
Which obviously hasn’t worked.
April 8, 2024 at 2:45 pm
Henchman Of Justice
The Agitator’s progressive hyperbole mocks the various ways death can be leveraged…
… and being forced out of your community on a mass scale is a form of genocide too…
More than 70 percent of Gaza’s population – some 1.7 million people – are refugees. Most of them lived in or near Gaza’s eight refugee camps. These camps were established in the aftermath of the 1948 Nakba when an estimated 750,000 Palestinians were forced out of their homes by Zionist militias.
30,000
The Latest | Gaza death toll tops 30,000 as over 100 killed in aid convoy violence. More than 30,000 Palestinians have been killed and over 70,000 wounded in the Gaza Strip since the Israel’s war on Hamas began nearly five months ago, health officials in the territory said.Feb 29, 2024
How many people left Gaza?
The scale and speed of death and destruction in Gaza are unparalleled. Some 1.7 million people displaced, communities obliterated, homes demolished, entire families and generations wiped out. And now starvation is bearing down on Palestinians in Gaza.
Which country has the most Palestinian refugees?
Jordan
With nearly 2.4 million registered Palestinian refugees – close to half of the total of all Palestinian refugees – Jordan is home to the largest number, followed by Syria (about 584,000) and Lebanon (about 491,000), according to the agency’s 2023 estimates.Jan 5, 2024
How many people are starving in Gaza?
All 2.2 million people in Gaza do not have enough food to eat, with half of the population on the brink of starvation and famine projected to arrive in the north “anytime between mid-March and May 2024,” according to the Integrated Food Security Phase Classification (IPC).Mar 19, 2024
April 8, 2024 at 4:37 pm
bolithio
Callous. Yes. Listen to Israeli journalist speak directly to just how callous the IDFs scorched earth targeting methods are. But beyond the plethora of international laws these systems violate, its the non-military targets and destruction of all civil aspects of life for Palestinians which does not advance the military goal of “destroying Hamas” – combined with the statements expressing the intent of these policies that led the ICJ to rule that a genocide was plausibly occurring. Did you even read the case?
April 8, 2024 at 4:44 pm
bolithio
When I think about Hamas, I think that the brutal occupation, the apartheid, and annual deaths, maiming, and humiliation of people throughout the occupied territories. These are the conditions which breed reactionary violence. Scorched earth may kill many, even most of a gorilla group, yet the terror and destruction wrought will only serve as radicalization for the next generation of “Hamas”. And boy, talk about a radicalizing event. The solution, a real solution, needs to be political. So yeh, in the realm of hyperbole, and narrative, Hamas Bad, Israel good – dont think about the occupation/apartheid.
April 8, 2024 at 6:40 pm
Anonymous
Palestinians were killing Jews and trying to destroy Israel long before the Occupation. But Bolithio is only capable of seeing the violence breeds violence mechanism in one direction. He’s so close to understanding, of only he could see Jews as people in the same way he rightly does Palestinians.
April 9, 2024 at 6:05 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
Elizabeth Warren’s weighs in on Israel’s intent. I wonder Eric, how do you devine Israel’s intent when there is so much clearly genocidal rhetoric out there by top Israeli officials – both military and civilian?
April 9, 2024 at 6:07 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
Dresden was one of the reasons there is a UN and a security council and the ICJ and war crime tribunals and all the other agencies.
so that it won’t happen again
Which obviously hasn’t worked.
It’s really nice to have another voice of reason on here. I’d love it if you would at least pick a pseudonym so us normies wouldn’t have to guess who is saying what.
April 9, 2024 at 6:08 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
It also adds to your/our credibility imo.
April 9, 2024 at 6:13 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
Israel’s intention is to destroy Hamas. Hamas is a point you don’t want to think about, but it was Hamas that started this thing. It’s Hamas that they are after.
I’m happy to talk about Hamas. Hamas sucks, Hamas did horrific things and the soldiers and leadership should be brought to justice. What else is there to say. Do you want to talk about military strategy or intelligence? That’s stuff we, by design, don’t know about so we really can’t. But that’s kinda the point right?
There is another way, but we are choosing the way that doesn’t consider the humanity of Palestinians in what is clearly illiberal and it’s so disappointing that the liberals themselves “don’t want to think about it”, or the 33,000 or 100,000 as anon rightly points out might be the total.
April 9, 2024 at 6:23 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
But Bolithio is only capable of seeing the violence breeds violence mechanism in one direction. He’s so close to understanding, of only he could see Jews as people in the same way he rightly does Palestinians.
What you are missing PA is that numbers are important. If one Israeli was killed or raped or murdered on 10/07 it would not justify an invasion of Gaza. But it wasn’t 1 it was 1200 with 250 kidnaped. What’s the appropriate response to the unnecessary killing of 33,000 Palestinians from the perspective of Iranians or Turks or Egyptians or Jordanians or Lebanese to name a few?
This is also about power and the type of violence one inflicts. I think any right-minded individual across the globe would admit that 10/07 was murder. What we can’t admit in the U.S. or Israel is that what we are doing right now is murder as well with only a fig-leaf of justification to cover the violence.
There will be a cost to that, just as there was in Iraq, the Levant and Afghanistan. When that happens we’ll again call that a “war” or terrorism and again make sure our violence is orders of magnitude worse than the one they inflicted on us peace-loving Judeo-Christians so that this time, or the next, those stubborn non-knee-benders understand the Truth.
April 9, 2024 at 6:34 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
*by right-minded individual I mean someone, regardless of background, who is both given all the information about what actually occured that day, it doesn’t matter what happened before, and who can be removed from their milieu. For example, talking about that subject I hate to talk about, many Palestinians would back Hamas because of two very human things a) they depend on Hamas for sustenance and they do a decent job of it for the needy and I’m sure they sell aid from others as their own beneficence. b) fear of repercussions if they do not toe the line which would include everything from bodily harm to oneself or family to something as simple as social pressure to conform.
As an example, in that clip Mitch posted of a Hamas soldier calling his parents to brag about his crimes, I could hear the doubt and fear in the voice of at least his mother, even as she and/or her husband were saying the exact opposite.
What I’m not saying is that antisemitism doesn’t exist, it does and I’m sure it does in spades in the Middle East, but not all of it is not justified based on Zionism itself and the actions of a right-wing Israel and the US despite the UN since 1967.
April 9, 2024 at 7:28 am
Anonymous
“What I’m not saying is that antisemitism doesn’t exist, it does and I’m sure it does in spades in the Middle East, but not all of it is not justified based on Zionism itself…”
Looks like Jon has progressed from “Anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitic!!!” to “some anti-Semitism is actually justifiable, because Zionism.”
Not exactly surprising, but repugnant nonetheless.
April 9, 2024 at 7:37 am
Henchman Of Justice
Palestinians are termed as half breeds in the north by jews… obviously Israel is a “family custody battle”…
…the real hate is jews only have 1/12 vested title to all of Israel (Judea),
all the while Palestinians live amongst the 10 Israel Kingdoms in the North and West of Israel, a 10/12 proportion to the title and heir to Israel …
Jews epitomize Cain so much so, there is no able in anything jews have done to render peace… and history holds that jews did the same thing to Simeones for southern control… but I won’t recognize a 2/12 share for jews…
April 9, 2024 at 8:22 am
Henchman Of Justice
like public schools normalizing mixed cultural backgrounds as being so subtly a “black only” culture…
I personally do not believe any person who claims to be Black is 100% African Culture, genetics… but at least these High School youths show their willingness in denial while kicking to the curb all other cultural blood stream quantum math chart candidates of skin tone, for their unblackened mothers or fathers, by rape, incest, oopsies or purposeful procreation… damn, these kids are going backward at school, not forward… black is not anything but a sociopolitical concept…
… like a feminist healthcare specialist in a windstream trailer with suicide doors traveling 55mph plus to see an eclipse… don’t think of the misguided thoughts and actions… just grab your handles, open up the dialogue, but kill all your chance at a revival… thump thump, just jump off the Trump Tower already…
Arcata High School’s Black Student Union to Unveil New Mural Celebrating ‘Black Joy and Love’
April 9, 2024 at 2:12 pm
Just Watchin
jonboy….first you tell the “anon” to pick a name so you know who is commenting. Then you refer to her as “PA”, so you know it’s purple anonymous cunt. Wake up boy….
April 9, 2024 at 5:13 pm
Jon Yalcinkaya
Eric wouldn’t 2:12 meet your censorship guidelines? Please remove if so.
April 10, 2024 at 3:49 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
Jon Stewart making the same point of hypocrisy wrt Russia/Ukraine Manwarn Barghouti made days after 10/07. But heaven the. I remember PA using the same refrain saying this was about Hamas and but with the added crime that Barghouti did not acknowledge that Hamas targeted civilians, which to be fair he didn’t.
So it’s the same basic refrain for 6 months, one side with racist and fundamentalist Christian support and support from what the “f” & “a” word-users would call a fascist or authoritarian leadership in Israel saying “what about Hamas”? And the other side asking exactly who the hell are we and what exactly does it mean to be liberal? Is there an exception for liberalism for Israel and how long will it last and how many not-Jewish Middle Easterners will die or be impoverished to protect the world’s singular Jewish state?
April 10, 2024 at 4:02 am
Just Watchin
Another mass murder in california…..
https://www.aol.com/news/los-angeles-woman-fatally-stabbed-005905978.html
April 10, 2024 at 5:38 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
April 10, 2024 at 5:49 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
There are two keys to understanding my statement fairly and not abusing it as a gotcha.
a) This one is hard for Zionists to take but the goal of Zionism is a Jewish homeland.
b) In the Middle East, as opposed to our pluralistic country which in this context is a good thing, but did not become pluralistic in a good way, nations are often identified by their ethnicity. For example, Turks are not found of Greeks, Armenians or Kurds for that matter. Are they anti-Greek? Yes, often as the Greeks are often anti-turk. Does that mean it’s legal (or acceptable) to discriminate against a Turkish Greek in Turkey, I hope not but my guess is that being greek in Turkey does not enhance your work prospects or social life.
Point: In the Middle East, which I added for context, nations are defined by it’s people and if you are being honest, Israel is for people across the glove who are Jewish and others may or may not be tolerated but their existence within Israel is not Israel’s founding purpose.
April 10, 2024 at 5:57 am
Anonymous
“how many not-Jewish Middle Easterners will die or be impoverished to protect the world’s singular Jewish state?”
Depends on how many more times the murderous anti-Semites of Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad and the like — and the collection of brutal Islamic fundamentalist dictatorships, corrupt monarchies and kleptocracies that fund, arm and support them — keep trying to destroy the world’s singular Jewish state.
Jews aren’t trying to wipe out Arabs or Muslims, or, contrary to the ancient myth so popular among Jon’s fellow travelers, dominate the world. They are just defending the one tiny Jewish country in the entire world, in their ancestral homeland, amidst a sea of mostly hostile majority Arab and Muslim regimes surrounding them (most of which, by the way, are far, far more authoritarian and fascistic than Israel, not that this matters to Israel’s hypocritical critics).
When will “non-Jewish Middle Easterners” stop dying in the struggle to wipe out Israel?
When their leaders stop trying to wipe out Israel, or when they overthrow those leaders and pick better ones, who will stop trying to wipe out Israel.
Because the alternative — Israelis consenting to be wiped out — simply isn’t going to happen, no matter how much the murderous anti-Semites (and their supporters, apologists and useful idiots) might wish for that to happen.
April 10, 2024 at 6:01 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
Jon Stewart is Jewish. Are his views in the fifth percentile of Jewish Americans?
I believe that is the common wisdom, maybe 10th or 20th or 30th percentile but definitely the minority.
That, common wisdom and the concern for winning the next election, along with massive pro-Israeli PACs, along with typical centrist postering on any subject that the Repubicans own and are populizing through their faux populism explains why it’s left to people like Jon Stewart to try to wake up America to it’s shameful and hypocritical part in the raising of Gaza over the past 6 months, not to mention Israel’s other military adventures in other undeclared but ongoing wars with neighbors.
April 10, 2024 at 7:41 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
And by “waking up America” I should have said Democrats b/c for Republicans racism and cruelty and demonstration and application of military power IS the point.
April 10, 2024 at 7:59 am
Just Watchin
The Supreme Court already said “no” to this. You’d think a grow man who took showers with his 12 year old daughter would understand that “no” means “no”…..
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/biden-gives-the-supreme-court-and-taxpayers-the-finger-with-his-latest-student-loan-bailout/ar-BB1llQQR?rc=1&ocid=winp1taskbar&cvid=20b3fe49577647c7b6c673b45cf3497b&ei=35
April 10, 2024 at 8:22 am
Anonymous
“This one is hard for Zionists to take but the goal of Zionism is a Jewish homeland.”
LOL! That’s not “hard for Zionists to take.” The only people for whom that’s “hard to take” are those who believe that Jews are the one group — unlike Turks, or Greeks, or Iranians, or Japanese, or you name it — that must never, ever be allowed to be in the majority, not even in one tiny piece of ancestral homeland.
But thanks for confirming the convoluted reasoning by which you reach the conclusion that Zionism justifies anti-Semitism. You’re certainly not alone in that belief, joined as you are by the leaders of Iran, Syria, Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, etc.
April 10, 2024 at 11:17 am
Anonymous
“Israel’s other military adventures in other undeclared but ongoing wars with neighbors.”
Have you by any chance noticed that Israel is not involved in any “military adventures” against its neighbors Egypt or Jordan? Might that be because these are the two countries that officially recognized Israel, stopped trying to destroy Israel, stopped vowing to destroy Israel, don’t support the groups that are continuing to vow and try to destroy Israel, and don’t allow such groups to operate from its territory?
Meanwhile, yes, Israel continues to engage in armed conflict with the countries whose leaders harbor, fund, and arm groups that continue to vow to destroy Israel, and which continue to launch attacks against Israeli civilians on a regular basis.
I’m pretty sure most Israelis would be absolutely delighted to refrain from any “military adventures” with their neighbors, but first the neighbors that are engaged in trying to destroy Israel would have to stop doing that.
It worked for Egypt and Jordan!
April 10, 2024 at 6:16 pm
bolithio
I guess we will never know what the attitudes of other nations states near Israel would be if they had provided reparations to the Palestinians who where kicked off their lands, villages burned, and people murdered in Israels founding. If these refugees did not end up in all of these countries with stories of their homes being destroyed, stolen, and their people killed, perhaps the first impression of Israel would have been more favorable. Perhaps instead of 75 years of occupation and apartheid, Israel recognized the rights of all people in their boarders and did not force the people of Gaza to live in a prison and the people of the west bank to live in a apartheid that brutally oppresses and humiliates them on a daily basis – perhaps then there would not be this hatred towards Israel.
Whats crazy to me right now is how Israel and by extension the USA are drastically eroding all international law and order before our eyes. Bombing Hospitals? Ambulances? Refugee camps? Killing hundreds to maybe get 1 guy that a AI decided might be Hamas? Its totally unhinged and psychotic.
The new reporting from Israeli journalists regarding “Lavender” and “Wheres Daddy” AI are absolutely crazy. It completely dispels the “human shield” myth and shows that they have been purposefully targeting homes of “suspected Hamas” – with almost no human verification – knowing full well hundreds of random people would be killed. Wiping out entire families with no regards whatsoever. Imagine, if we were in a hot conflict and the enemy started bombing the homes of our soldiers killing their families and all their neighbors? There is ZERO justification for this.
Now, Israel bombs an embassy? WTF? These are places that are ‘supposed’ to be off limits from attacks. They are testing the limits of the rules to show there are no rules, at least for them. There are no limits. Wave a white flag? Shot. Drive and Aid truck? Air Strike. Diplomatic relations in a embassy? Bombed. No safe space.
But ask your self, is this the state of warfare we want to devolve into? If these are to be the rules of engagement, are we going to like it when the same tactics are used by other actors? I dont think the paste is going back in the tube.
Within days of Israels totally belligerent and illegal bombing of the embassy in Syria:
https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/10/americas/ecuador-mexico-glas-noboa-analysis-intl-latam/index.html
April 10, 2024 at 9:05 pm
bolithio
“Because the alternative — Israelis consenting to be wiped out — simply isn’t going to happen, no matter how much the murderous anti-Semites (and their supporters, apologists and useful idiots) might wish for that to happen”
-False Dichotomy.
There are other alternatives. Namely, ending the immoral and unjust blockade of Gaza and the apartheid system which oppresses Palestinians. Stop killing people with no regard, stop razing villages and stealing land. Do those things, and chances are, the violence will subside. Either 1 or 2 states in which all people have equal rights. Do this, and Israel can say they are “the only democracy” with a straight face.
April 11, 2024 at 4:35 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
Whats crazy to me right now is how Israel and by extension the USA are drastically eroding all international law and order before our eyes. Bombing Hospitals? Ambulances? Refugee camps? Killing hundreds to maybe get 1 guy that a AI decided might be Hamas? Its totally unhinged and psychotic.
And to top it off, we only take it seriously when non-Muslims are murdered. The racism is so blatant and ubiquitous that somehow even liberals are blind to it or ignore it.
*Or* are we actually dealing with anti-woke liberals? No that’s not it, not nationally, but perhaps on SoHum.
Anyhoo here is one example of article that I’ve encountered quite a bit recently, with the special attention the slaughter of the white and not-Palestinian aid workers got this past week. Somehow these 7 workers were singled out & seen but not the 33,000 plus Gazans. It’s infuriating to me.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/05/us/politics/democrats-israel-aid.html
April 11, 2024 at 5:20 am
Anonymous
Again, Israel’s enemies aimed to wipe out Israel since the day it was formed, and repeatedly tried to do so long before the occupation, blockade, etc.
I’m all for a two state solution, but the phrase “chances are” is carrying an impossibly heavy load there, and I’m not the one Palestinians need to persuade that their new state would not simply continue to be used as a forward operating base for those who wish to destroy Israel.
The folks who need to be persuaded of that are the Israelis, and it will take a lot more than the words “chances are,” especially when those words are coming from outsiders making their predictions from a safe distance, and especially when those making the prediction are people who heap all blame for the conflict on Israel and fail to recognize that the attempts to annihilate Israel began long before the occupation that is being posited as the cause of those attempts to annihilate.
Continued attempts by Israel’s enemies to murder and terrorize their way into forcing Israelis to take that chance will not succeed. Blithe assurances of “chances are” coming from naive outsiders who are at no risk themselves if their “chances are” predictions turn out to be wrong won’t get the job done. What will be required once this war is over, and the hostages are released, is a sustained period of de-escalation on the part of both the Palestinians and Israelis.
For the Israelis, positive steps toward de-escalation would include halting settlement expansions, ditching the right-wing government that has supported it, and replacing it with a government that expresses support for an eventual two-state solution.
For Palestinians, positive steps would include refraining from continued rocket and terrorist attacks, turning away from annihilationist leaders like Hamas, and embracing new leadership that explicitly seeks peaceful co-existence with Israel rather than its destruction.
It takes two sides determined to make peace, to make that peace. Currently there are zero. Heaping all the blame for the conflict on Israel is deeply ahistorical and counterfactual, and expecting Israel to somehow unilaterally make peace happen, on the incredibly flimsy basis of “chances are,” even as its enemies continue to attack Israel and to vow to destroy Israel, is wildly unrealistic and totally unhelpful.
April 11, 2024 at 6:43 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
But when I say ubiquitous, here is the other side, the one that does portend dangerous antisemitism that is endemic to US & European history, not the national and tribal differences of the Middle East. This is the type of antisemitism that liberals are rightfully afraid of, and count me with them but this too demonstrates the clear racism of the liberal’s & Israel’s partners in this annihilation of Gaza, the Christian right-wing, the one that will be voting for Trump this November, the one that might characterize Gaza as a sh&thole strip of land … EXCEPT for those Christians that Israel is apartheiding & murdering.
April 11, 2024 at 6:57 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
What is a better leader by your standards PA? One that serves the interests of a nation or one that serves the interests of Israel? What evidence do you have that in a democracy, Israel’s murderous history, one with any honor in defense lost in spades based on the asymmetry of it’s reaction, would lead to better leadership from the perspective of Israel or the United States?
From my lifetime what I see happening in the Middle East and beyond (Afghanistan) is polarization and increased militarism on one side breeds polarization and increased militarism on the other side with no end in sight as both extremists, yes including ourselves in the US, do not center the true peace-makers. This would be people like Yitzak Rabin and the peace process begun by President Carter.
I understand we are going to disagree on who is the honest broker in peace agreements as is quite clear from your prior comments about them and about how Hamas hasn’t approved a ceasefire. But that aside because clearly we won’t agree even if both of us are being fair and honest, what constitutes better leaders and what gives you any hope that a militaristic Israel leads to better leadership in other countries rather than the opposite (at least wrt recognizing Israel as currently constituted rather than, say based on 1967 borders).
Imo, it’s a bleak path you are promoting, an illiberal path and one that leads directly, as I think bolithio has been pointing out, to groups like the Taliban & ISIS not to mention a rational deep hatred for the nation of Israel in most of the globe in a way that is distinct from the hatred of Jews that predominated in Western nations, a fact you cannot or will not concede.
April 11, 2024 at 6:58 am
Just Trollin
Looks like with mitchie gone, jonboy graduates to president of the Humboldt Pseudo-Intellectual Society. Bloviate away !!
April 11, 2024 at 7:02 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
In short, it seems to me what you are saying is bend the knee, recognize Israel as we define it or suffer the consequences.
I guess this is a decent strategy for Zionists until that day that Israel no longer holds military dominance over it’s neighbors. Maybe it will forever, but I don’t think it will be possible without both the US and Israel intentionally impoverishing it’s neighbors through all means necessary and defending those policies as self-defense against rampant antisemitism of those in the Middle East and basically the rest of the world as well, given the history of UN votes on Israel.
April 11, 2024 at 7:12 am
Just Trollin
I never realized the lengths magoo went to to avoid the draft…..
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/biden-says-vietnam-motivated-him-to-stop-wars-60-years-after-he-dodged-the-draft-how-joe-used-five-student-deferments-then-teenage-problems-with-asthma-to-avoid-joining-the-millions-of-americans-who-served/ar-BB1lpzuR?ocid=socialshare&cvid=8fe0a5113e2740e3949351e88c55b89b&ei=120
April 11, 2024 at 7:36 am
bolithio
The game is up at this point. One one hand your supposed be outraged by the killing of innocents, but also perfectly fine with the killing of innocents. The scale apparently doesn’t matter. It 100% matters *who* is being murdered. This becuase certain people are no longer “human” and can be dealt with “accordingly”. This is in part to most western peoples inherent view that Arabs are backwards, uncivilized and barbarians, thanks in large part to decades of war on terror propaganda, amplified by the disgusting lies about killing babies and “systematic” rape. It should be stunning to anyone that our highest office has repeated these lies. And now we have liberals tying themselves in knots to justify bombing hospitals, ambulances, and schools – becuase Palestinians have been effectively de-humanized. They are baby killing rapists after all. Biden said so.
April 11, 2024 at 8:51 am
Just Trollin
I find it curious that democrats rage about babies being killed in a war, but are perfectly OK with killing babies here at home as a result of abortions. Yes…..very curious….
April 11, 2024 at 10:26 am
bolithio
Right? Just like Republicans who are pro-life and pro-death penalty. Base level irony.
April 11, 2024 at 10:52 am
Anonymous
“What is a better leader by your standards?”
As I said, what is needed on both sides is leadership committed to peaceful co-existence. How your brain manages to turn that into “illiberalism” and all the rest of that nonsensical verbal diarrhea is a mystery.
But I guess it should not be surprising coming from someone who recently opined that “some” anti-Semitism is actually “justified,” and has now endorsed “deep hatred” of Jews as “rational.”
April 11, 2024 at 11:18 am
Just Trollin
interesting paradox boli, except that aborted babies didn’t commit any crime punishable by death…..
April 11, 2024 at 1:23 pm
bolithio
Your either pro-life or your not.
April 12, 2024 at 6:53 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
For all of our disagreements, being against AIPAC is something we should all agree upon. I was under the impression that most or all of my progressive California Democrats understood this. I was wrong, the bigger danger in the minds & hearts of my fellow Democratic voters, even those who would call themselves progressive or socialists or Sanders supporters is antisemitism on the left. Which happens to be exactly what AIPAC is selling as a means of passing their pro-Israel, pro-Zionist agenda.
Inconceivable!
April 12, 2024 at 7:18 am
Anonymous
Wait, so now Zionism is supposed to be regarded as worse than Anti-Semitism?
I guess that shouldn’t be surprising coming from the guy who recently opined that (some) anti-Semitism is “justified,” and that “deep hatred” of Jews is “rational.”
Still sad to witness Jon’s continuing descent into moral degeneracy. How low can he go? I guess we’re going to find out.
April 12, 2024 at 7:44 am
bolithio
Just imagine what kind of scandal it would be if it came to light some foreign country was spending big money to influence campaigns, back certain candidates, and lobby our law makers over foreign policy decisions. That would be meddling in our elections and that would be a huge problem, right? Like remember when Russia was supposedly meddling in our elections? That was a huge, massive deal right? Like on the news every day?
Meddling in elections is bad right? Like very undemocratic, especially if another country is manipulating the will of voters. That is bad right?
Right. So is there a special carve out, exemption, exception, for very specific countries? Like say, Israel who very openly meddles in our elections every single year? Or perhaps its a loophole? Like the way the USA meddles in elections all over the planet including funding coups and gorilla resistance against democratically elected governments – all the time. And generally, armed “resistance” is terrorism right? That is bad? Shoot Im getting confused. Can some one explain to me how democracy is supposed to work?
Kinda interesting how the USA is backing the essentially narco gangs in Ecuador who are going after the leftist government, and who had the balls to storm the Mexican embassy and kidnap the vice president. What gave them the idea its OK to violate these international norms and attack a consulate? Hmmm. We are the most democratic, the most moral.
April 12, 2024 at 10:47 am
Anonymous
I am no fan of AIPAC, but they are NOT funded by Israel. The vast majority of their funding comes from Jewish Americans, with non-Jewish Americans (mostly Evangelicals) also providing some funding.
And like it or not, Jews in this country have the same right to organize, lobby, contribute to campaigns, etc., as Christians, Muslims, or anyone else.
Not surprisingly, morally degenerate anti-Semites (including those masquerading as “just anti-Zionists”) don’t like it one bit.
April 13, 2024 at 4:27 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
How do you know this and if you do, can you break down those who would vote for an authoritarian?
True, absolutely, but I thought we were trying to defeat the authoritarians and if AIPAC is funded by those who would vote for the authoritarian why aren’t those people, even if Jewish, called morally degenerate or a tracked with the same vitriol as the left on the pages of SoHum?
That is what is so odd. Look, I support cleansing moral degeneracy in the form of anti-semitism which does exist, even on the left, but liberals throughout the past 5 decades have abused that worthy goal to hide the moral degeneracy of Israel, defending or ignoring or enabling it for a host of reasons but top among them is winning primaries and general elections against those on the left for reasons that have nothing to do with Israel.
God love ya PA, don’t you ever change.
April 13, 2024 at 7:17 am
bolithio
LOl yeh. You have to appreciate the creativity required for black belt shadow boxing.
Meanwhile:
https://jacobin.com/2024/03/israel-meddling-us-iran-netanyahu-aipac
https://www.timesofisrael.com/expose-unmasks-israel-led-disinformation-team-that-meddled-in-dozens-of-elections/
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO2002/S00094/founding-fathers-worst-nightmare-how-israel-normalized-foreign-meddling-in-us-elections.htm
https://theintercept.com/2024/03/03/wolf-blitzer-aipac-israel-si-kenan-cnn/
April 13, 2024 at 7:17 am
Anonymous
“I support cleansing moral degeneracy in the form of anti-semitism which does exist, even on the left.”
Given your recent statements that anti-Semitism is “justified” and that a “deep hatred of Jews” is “rational,” the best place for you to start that cleansing is your own mouth.
April 13, 2024 at 7:19 am
Anonymous
“Why would anyone call me an anti-Semite!?!?” whines the guy who recently said that “a deep hatred of Jews” is “rational.”
April 13, 2024 at 8:08 am
Henchman Of Justice
A jew gal moved away to Australia, one old lady. She now calls Israeli’s “nazis”…
talk about from the horses mouth…
April 13, 2024 at 8:28 pm
Henchman Of Justice
Anonymous harping on a Turk who harps on a jew who harps on a couple caucasian nazi jew haters + mega bet EK…
…a 6 reel slot machine, place bets.
April 14, 2024 at 7:20 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
Quotations in your grammar book mean what PA? Paraphrasing, what you *think* I wrote? Whatever they mean, they are a creative use of our language and I support creativity!
April 14, 2024 at 10:34 am
Anonymous
They just told the Ayatollah that magoo told him “Don’t”…..
April 14, 2024 at 11:23 am
Anonymous
Exact quote from Jon:
“What I’m not saying is that antisemitism doesn’t exist, it does and I’m sure it does in spades in the Middle East, but not all of it is not justified, based on Zionism itself.”
In the English language, “Not all is not” means the same thing as “some is.”
Dodge, deny, obfuscate and equivocate all you want, you really showed your true anti-Semitic colors in this thread.
April 14, 2024 at 1:11 pm
Just Trollin
Hardly sounds like the “rock solid” support magoo crowed about…..
https://www.aol.com/news/biden-tells-netanyahu-us-not-124937697.html
April 14, 2024 at 3:11 pm
Just Trollin
Being told that biden told him “don’t”….
April 15, 2024 at 5:27 am
Just Trollin
Sooo…..Iran gets rid of old inventory, gets no retaliatory response, and buys Hamas in Gaza time to re-stock munitions inventory. BRILLIANT !
April 15, 2024 at 7:28 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
Still not a proper quote PA. B/c I don’t have the time this am to cut & paste, let me ask you a question…
Is the deep hatred of Turks by Armenian Americans at least partially rational? (Btw, my answer is “yes” to both the question & the assumption; yes it exists and yes it is rational.)
April 15, 2024 at 7:31 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
I’d also ask if you think I’m antisemitic, what about Ilhan Omar or Rashida Tlaib or André Carson, the only Muslims currently serving in Congress?
April 15, 2024 at 9:37 am
Just Trollin
Gotta love the last line…..” no employees will lose their jobs”…..
https://www.aol.com/news/bureau-prisons-close-california-womens-144020799.html
April 15, 2024 at 2:30 pm
Anonymous
B/c I don’t have the time this am to cut & paste.
What a pathetic evasion. It took me all of 10 seconds to search, cut and paste.
Here’s the full paragraph:
”What I’m not saying is that antisemitism doesn’t exist, it does and I’m sure it does in spades in the Middle East, but not all of it is not justified based on Zionism itself and the actions of a right-wing Israel and the US despite the UN since 1967. “
April 9, 2024 at 6:34 am Jon Yalcinkaya
The last few words don’t change one bit the fact that you have stated, right here for all to see, that you think (some) anti-Semitism is “justified.”
Just as there are plently of blatant racists that will sincerely “I don’t have a racist bone in my body” I have no doubt that your blatant anti-Semitism remains invisible to you.
And yet there it is, plain as day, in your own words. No amount of evasion or denial can change that.
April 15, 2024 at 9:27 pm
bolithio
Just for you JW. “There not wrong”
April 16, 2024 at 3:34 am
Just Trollin
Well boli…..if the shoe fits…..
April 16, 2024 at 3:58 am
Henchman Of Justice
Former NPR executive praises whistleblower for exposing liberal bias: ‘He’s identified a real problem’‘I think he did this out of a sense of principle,’ Berlinger’s former NPR colleague said
I figure the NPR thread on sohum par for course dating back about 9 months ago should serve notice that liberals are much of the more retarded, but sinister sub-species on the planet…🤷♂️
April 16, 2024 at 4:04 am
Henchman Of Justice
He’s done everything wrong…Genocide Joe
Biden was put into government by liberal mental retard voters who deserve 100% punishment for decades of election treason!
April 16, 2024 at 5:45 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
I didn’t think you could answer my questions and instead had to plead with the judge to dismiss me for my now proven (in your imagination) hatred.
PA, does anti-turkish sentiment exist in U.S. Armenians and is it justified? I’d answer yes to both.
And you’ve proven, to your satisfaction, my antisemitism which means nothing to no-one who matters, you know, people who might pass Medicare for all or who, more to the point might vote against aid to Israel to further their campaign of ethnic cleansing. How about those who do matter, the only Muslims in Congress. There is plenty of words to judge them, are they antisemitic too?
If so do you see hoe there might not be an antisemitism problem but an Islamophobia problem in our country where a good person like you could be so certain about the rotten heart of a person like me?
https://x.com/thrasherxy/status/1779953835886149664
April 16, 2024 at 5:51 am
Just Trollin
Freudian slip by jonboy in conversation,with PAC, slipping in the word “hoe”…..
April 16, 2024 at 5:55 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
This is key, because if you don’t see where justifiable hatred of another nation and predominant people of that nation, then the debt of honor Israel is digging itself has no relavence, especially if you don’t count a poor person’s or a brownish person’s or a not-Judeau-Chistrian person’s life as having the same value as a Jewish person’s or a Christian’s.
And perhaps that is not the case for you PA, I don’t think it is, definitely not consciously, but I don’t think you’d disagree it’s the case for must of Israel’s leadership right now or for the overwhelming majority of Republicans who are your strongest supporters in this ethnic cleansing campaign of Muslims from Israel’s occupied territory.
https://x.com/phil_lewis_/status/1780052452374384780
April 16, 2024 at 6:21 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
And PA, this is the inevitable double edge of the sword of Zionism. It’s goal is to create a nation state for a home of Jewish people, so if you hate the actions of that state your hatred can rationally be targeted against Jewish people.
I don’t condone hatred, I think it’s a waste of time & emotion for one, but I understand that hatred and I understand how it would be expanding rather than contracting right now, especially in the Middle East, just as I understand the hatred of Turks by Armenians post genocide.
FWIW, if I haven’t shared it before, my Turkish grandparents went to their grave believing my Turkish father was murdered by an Armenian physician when he didn’t come out of what could have been a routine surgery.
He was Turkish and he was a soldier so I would not say the doctor’s actions, if my wildest nightmares of my grandparents were true, would not have been rational as an eye for a thousand eyes and perhaps one victory in what many may see as an eternal war.
Also, FWIW, I thought my grandparents were seeing ghosts in their absolute devastation in the wake of my father’s death and seeking scapegoats, until I saw this in 2016 and now believe there may be a grain of truth to their nightmares. Unlike myself, my father was not an insignificant man to his nation.
April 16, 2024 at 7:21 am
Anonymous
Jon’s headlong plunge into moral degeneration continues, as he now openly endorses the notion that disapproval of the state of Israel “rationally” justifies “hatred” being “targeted against Jewish people.”
April 16, 2024 at 7:42 am
Anonymous
“If so do you see how there might not be an antisemitism problem but an Islamophobia problem in our country where a good person like you could be so certain about the rotten heart of a person like me?”
Jon, my low and falling opinion of you is based on your own words.
Unlike you, nowhere have I said, nor do I believe, that I “deep hatred” of a group of people are justified by the actions or perceived actions of some number of that group.
The attempt to conflate my personal criticism of you as an individual, based on your own words, with your disgusting rationalization of anti-Semitism / “deep hatred” against “Jewish people” in general is just another lame evasion of responsibility for your own words, as well as your usual resort to groundless victim-posturing.
April 16, 2024 at 7:43 am
Anonymous
Oh no, the New York Times advised its journalists to avoid inaccurate, inflammatory language in news stories. Must be Islamophobia!!!
What rubbish.
April 16, 2024 at 9:28 am
Anonymous
So you can’t answer the questions PA. I would suggest to you PA that you could/should dismiss every I say as a hater (in your estimation of course) but I would challenge you to listen to the Jewish pro-Palestinian and anti-Zionist voices, unless you are going to call them too antisemitic. It’s a good gig you & the liberal establishment have in this country and others like the UK and Germany.
April 16, 2024 at 10:08 am
bolithio
Anon cant possibly imagine why Palestinians may hold a deep hatred for Israeli Jews who treat them as “human animals”. Nor can they understand how the conflation with the actions of a nation state (Israel) with ethnicity (Jews) is what is racist and breeds such sentiment. All the while treating Arabs as a monolith and applying all manor of racisist tropes and orientalism to hold the entire global people as backwards barbarians who deserve to die. Its the cope required for liberal zionists to keep supporting Israels ethnic cleansing and genocide. That is, to insist its the critics of such policy are who are the ones who are actually racist, and fiercely defending this highly unmoral position that one group ‘has the right to exist’, ‘the right to defend themselves’ and ‘the right of self determination’ while totally denying these rights for ‘the other’. The biggest gaslight of all time: Israel and her blind liberal followers.
April 16, 2024 at 10:31 am
Anonymous
“Anon cant possibly imagine why Palestinians may hold a deep hatred for Israeli Jews who treat them as “human animals.”
Oh I understand perfectly well that people choose to hate entire groups of people based on mistreatment by some members of that group. Unlike Jon, I do not claim that doing so is ever “justified” or “rational.”
Nor can they understand how the conflation with the actions of a nation state (Israel) with ethnicity (Jews) is what is racist and breeds such sentiment.
Jon’s the one who just said “if you hate the actions of that state [Israel] your hatred can rationally be targeted against Jewish people.” Your point is aimed at the wrong target.
“All the while treating Arabs as a monolith and applying all manor of racisist tropes and orientalism to hold the entire global people as backwards barbarians who deserve to die.”
This, of course, is just a string of blatant lies from start to finish. I have never said that all Arabs are the same, employed racist tropes toward them or called Arabs or Palestinians barbarians, much less said that “the entire global people…deserve to die.”
When you have to engage in such massive lies in order to make your “point,” this is a dead giveaway that your “point” is utter bullshit.
April 16, 2024 at 10:48 am
Anonymous
The irony is that Jon’s insistence that “deep hatred” of an entire group is “rational” and “justified” due to the actions of some members of that group, is exactly the mentality of the worst, most intolerant, and most violent elements in both Palestinian and Israeli society.
April 16, 2024 at 11:00 am
Just Trollin
someone say Arabs ?
April 16, 2024 at 12:03 pm
Jon Yalcinkaya
Oh I understand perfectly well that people choose to hate entire groups of people based on mistreatment by some members of that group. Unlike Jon, I do not claim that doing so is ever “justified” or “rational.”
And you cannot answer what humans can or should do to retaliate or resist or protest against injustice by a more powerful foe or if it’s not natural and understandable, and thus I’d argue rational and justified, to carry the hatred into the next generation. No where did I justify acting on that hatred, that’s a crime and by now you should know or remember that I believe terrorism should be treated as crimes against humanity, not as a green light to inflict a much greater brand of terrorism on those who don’t have the military strong fight back in kind.
It’s a great gig PA, wish you were in charge of all human actions in the Middle East, it would be a much better place. I just wonder how you’d gain power and if it would look anything like what Israel is doing right now. Seems to me it would be all but indistinguishable.
April 16, 2024 at 12:11 pm
Jon Yalcinkaya
So I ask again. You are an Armenian American, don’t you have a right to have a deep seeded hatred for the nation of Turkey and isn’t it rational that that hatred be aimed at Turks and perhaps not Armenian Turks or Jewish or Eastern Orthodox Turks but specifically Muslim Turks? And isn’t it understandable that that hatred may pass, either unconsciously or not, to Turks of the diaspora?
I for one would understand that and wouldn’t hold it against the individual. I’d just expect that I’d be able to live my life in peace and without retribution and if there ever was, that individual would be held accountable.
Somehow, for liberals, collectivism is akin to authoritarianism until or unless we are talking about Muslims and collective punishment, and I’m sure there are other examples that don’t immediately come to mind.
April 16, 2024 at 12:14 pm
Jon Yalcinkaya
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/16/us/usc-valedictorian-speech-gaza-war.html
April 16, 2024 at 1:31 pm
Anonymous
No, it is never “rational” or “justified” to hate whole groups of people for the actions of other people who happen to belong to those groups. It’s incredible that this even needs to be stated, but that’s where we are.
But you are certainly not alone in your thinking, sharing it as you do with anti-Semites and Islamophobes alike, and racists and bigots of all stripes, all throughout history. Congrats on your membership in such a pervasive and venerable intellectual tradition.
April 16, 2024 at 1:41 pm
Anonymous
“thus I’d argue rational and justified, to carry the hatred into the next generation.”
So, not only is it “rational” and “justified” to hate entire groups based on what some members of that group may have done to some members of your group, but even to hate entire groups in the present, for what some of their ancestors may have done in the past to some of members of the group your ancestors belonged to.
Down, down, down Jon spirals into the endless depths of moral degeneracy.
April 16, 2024 at 2:59 pm
Just Trollin
For those of you who might be new to the chatroom, welcome to the “Jon and PAC pissing match”. Enjoy!
April 17, 2024 at 6:22 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
April 9th:
Looks like Jon has progressed from “Anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitic!!!” to “some anti-Semitism is actually justifiable, because Zionism.”
Not exactly surprising, but repugnant nonetheless. (April 9th)
April 10th:
LOL! That’s not “hard for Zionists to take.” The only people for whom that’s “hard to take” are those who believe that Jews are the one group — unlike Turks, or Greeks, or Iranians, or Japanese, or you name it — that must never, ever be allowed to be in the majority, not even in one tiny piece of ancestral homeland.
But thanks for confirming the convoluted reasoning by which you reach the conclusion that Zionism justifies anti-Semitism. You’re certainly not alone in that belief, joined as you are by the leaders of Iran, Syria, Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, etc.
April 11th:
As I said, what is needed on both sides is leadership committed to peaceful co-existence. How your brain manages to turn that into “illiberalism” and all the rest of that nonsensical verbal diarrhea is a mystery.
But I guess it should not be surprising coming from someone who recently opined that “some” anti-Semitism is actually “justified,” and has now endorsed “deep hatred” of Jews as “rational.”
April 12th:
Wait, so now Zionism is supposed to be regarded as worse than Anti-Semitism?
I guess that shouldn’t be surprising coming from the guy who recently opined that (some) anti-Semitism is “justified,” and that “deep hatred” of Jews is “rational.”
Still sad to witness Jon’s continuing descent into moral degeneracy. How low can he go? I guess we’re going to find out.
April 13th:
Given your recent statements that anti-Semitism is “justified” and that a “deep hatred of Jews” is “rational,” the best place for you to start that cleansing is your own mouth.
April 14th: (to be fair, your response was a direct response to my stupidly engaging on this trying to make sure we had the same understanding of the rules of grammar)
In the English language, “Not all is not” means the same thing as “some is.”
Dodge, deny, obfuscate and equivocate all you want, you really showed your true anti-Semitic colors in this thread.
April 16th:
Jon’s headlong plunge into moral degeneration continues, as he now openly endorses the notion that disapproval of the state of Israel “rationally” justifies “hatred” being “targeted against Jewish people.”
April 16th:
Jon, my low and falling opinion of you is based on your own words.
Unlike you, nowhere have I said, nor do I believe, that I “deep hatred” of a group of people are justified by the actions or perceived actions of some number of that group.
The attempt to conflate my personal criticism of you as an individual, based on your own words, with your disgusting rationalization of anti-Semitism / “deep hatred” against “Jewish people” in general is just another lame evasion of responsibility for your own words, as well as your usual resort to groundless victim-posturing.
April 16th:
Oh I understand perfectly well that people choose to hate entire groups of people based on mistreatment by some members of that group. Unlike Jon, I do not claim that doing so is ever “justified” or “rational.”
April 16th:
The irony is that Jon’s insistence that “deep hatred” of an entire group is “rational” and “justified” due to the actions of some members of that group, is exactly the mentality of the worst, most intolerant, and most violent elements in both Palestinian and Israeli society.
April 16th:
No, it is never “rational” or “justified” to hate whole groups of people for the actions of other people who happen to belong to those groups. It’s incredible that this even needs to be stated, but that’s where we are.
But you are certainly not alone in your thinking, sharing it as you do with anti-Semites and Islamophobes alike, and racists and bigots of all stripes, all throughout history. Congrats on your membership in such a pervasive and venerable intellectual tradition.
April 16th:
So, not only is it “rational” and “justified” to hate entire groups based on what some members of that group may have done to some members of your group, but even to hate entire groups in the present, for what some of their ancestors may have done in the past to some of members of the group your ancestors belonged to.
Down, down, down Jon spirals into the endless depths of moral degeneracy.
April 17, 2024 at 6:50 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
(lost a paragraph here – point was this DID take time and that I’m not a victim. I get how powerful a political gotcha that is having heard Michael Medved and others on the right use it. I’m not that, I choose to be here and my complaint isn’t PA’s chosen form of debate because I can’t change that, my complaint is a lack of discussion and what takes the place of any discussion or any real back and forth which would include answering questions and something more than a filibuster based on saying over and over again the same thing “I’m so surprised at what a bad guy this guy is”.)
I want to have a discussion, in good faith, even where I and the interlocutor, disagree even passionately and I guess even where the interlocutor feels my views are repugnant*. That requires some minimum amount of discussion, something that you are not inclined to share. Which is fine and trust me, I have NO expectation that you ever would.
The “you are an antisemite” or “the left is antisemitic” (see UK circa Jeremy Corbyn-led Labor) is a VERY convenient argument and Congress agrees it is worth while to really stamp out antisemites like myself. Somehow this Republican-led and Democrat-supported Congress is missing the asymmetric violence that is being waged by Israel, violence that could not be taking place without US support of the right wing government, and it’s mass-murderous policy of retribution against the people of Gaza.
April 17, 2024 at 6:58 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
And back to things that matter…
Still something PA you haven’t been able to answer. How repugnant are the hearts of these members of Congress, the one’s with AIPAC-supported Democratic opponents where AIPAC feels there is opposition.
April 17, 2024 at 7:17 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
I just donated to Cori Bush because what seems like to me, knowing my heart, her pro democratic socialist and pro palestinian points of view. Is that right though? Is that what informs my politics? Maybe it’s something else, but who am I to say. Maybe I could learn more from PA and AIPAC.
I’m not a victim PA, you do you. I’m addressing the points you make in the only way I know how. I’d rather talk about anything else. I hope to talk again about the infamous quote above and about hatred and how it’s justified. It would be great if we didn’t live in a world where hatred is justified, but when a people are acted upon unfairly, based on one people’s superior technology or power and without accountability, hatred is a natural, and justifiable human emotion. How you or your people or a nations responds to or acts out on that hatred is something else entirely and there is nothing in this thread that I’ve said that promotes violence or acting out on hatred. I know this because I don’t believe this is sustainable or constructive, in fact it’s the opposite.
The question for liberals, including myself, and Palestinians and Muslims is what does resistance to ethnic cleansing and aparthied look like, what is acceptable and what is not. We got one answer from Congress last night. ”From the river to the sea” is verboten in the resistance as it is inherently antisemitic and not anti-Zionist or anti-Israel. Er, I think that’s wrong, I think we’ve also already decided as a nation that anti-Zionist is also antisemitic.
April 17, 2024 at 7:44 am
Mitch
I’m going to pop in to say two things. First, no, I don’t believe Jon is antisemitic.
I realize how patronizing this is to say, but I have always found Jon’s way of saying things extraordinarily unclear, and I think that is leading to confusion here. It is perfectly understandable that those who believe Israel is an aggressor state should be angry at Israel and, as Jon points out, by extension the people for whom Israel was specifically created.
The fundamental question is not IMO asymmetric violence. Left alone by its neighbors, I believe, though others do not, Israel would have withdrawn to pre-1967 boundaries with the exception of Jerusalem. IMO, everything that has happened with the occupations, at least until Israel’s Arab-directed sharp right turn, has been because Israel is aware that to withdraw threatens its existence.
There was a strong peace movement in Israel, and Hamas has destroyed it. So Israel is going to do what it needs to do, which is what every nation must do. The antisemitism is in holding Israel, the Jewish state, responsible for doing what any nation in its circumstances would be forced to do. If you don’t want “asymmetric violence,” don’t live in a place where your elected government diverts its foreign assistance into creating hundreds of miles of terrorist tunnels and scores of rockets. Don’t live in a place where your elected government teaches young people to hate. If you do that, expect everything to be leveled in order to eliminate the threat your government created on your behalf.
Yes, I know, young people didn’t vote for Hamas, etc…, but yes, young people have parents and suffer due to their stupidity. A long time back, Eric mentioned a quote from Golda Meir in 1969: “When peace comes we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons.” That was fifty years ago, when Israel was in its twenties. Things have changed.
April 17, 2024 at 7:46 am
Just Trollin
Wow jon…..no wonder you don’t have any friends…..
April 17, 2024 at 8:12 am
Anonymous
The “you are an antisemite”…is a VERY convenient argument
In your case, there’s no argument, it’s right there in the plain meaning of your own words.
You put yourself in this position when you openly endorsed anti-Semitism as “justified” and “rational,” and then doubled down again and again.
And yes, bigots almost always find it inconvenient when called out on their bigotry. Too bad, so sad.
April 17, 2024 at 8:25 am
Anonymous
I don’t believe Jon is antisemitic.
I admire your generosity of spirit, Mitch , but must respectfully disagree.
A person who insists that racism is justified, is a racist. It doesn’t matter what their rationalization is.
Similarly, a person who insists that anti-Semitism is justified, is an anti-Semite. It doesn’t matter what their rationalization is.
If Jon had just kind of accidentally stumbled into saying something that sounded anti-Semitic, due to his garbled writing style, poor logic and confused thought, but then backed off once it became clear what the plain meaning of his words implied, that would be one thing.
But no. Jon doubled down again and again, endorsing “deep hatred” of not just the state of Israel, or specific Israelis who have done wrong by the Palestinians, but of “the Jewish people.”
He may not have been an anti-Semite. But he’s talked himself into it.
April 17, 2024 at 9:09 am
Anonymous
“scores of rockets”
Scores!?!?
Actually, Hamas, Islamic Jihad and other Palestinian terrorists operating in Gaza have fired tens of thousands of rockets at Israel over the years.
In fact they fired more than 5,000 rockets at Israel on Oct. 7th alone.
April 17, 2024 at 2:36 pm
Just Trollin
I knew he couldn’t last……LMAO !
April 17, 2024 at 5:30 pm
Jon Yalcinkaya
If you search this page for “the Jewish people” you will find one instance and that is, PA, your use of the phrase at 8:25. Again, I’m not sure if you understand how quotes work, but you aren’t doing it right. Why does it matter? Besides the obvious, it’s important so readers can figure out exactly what you are talking about with the cntrl-f function.
April 17, 2024 at 7:27 pm
bolithio
Jon, debate lords like anon are wasting your time – that is – unless you just like to argue. If that’s the case, have at it. I like to argue with PA becuase I have a logical fallacy drinking game I play with their posts. That, and with anon you get the argument clinic and abuse all in one…for free!
Also, might a suggest, long form posting is a recipe for perpetual misunderstanding. It barley works in a real conversation. No one wants to read an essay, then parse through all the points they are compelled to respond to. You start writing an article, and your liable to have a debate lord andy hyper focusing on one thing, then you spend days relitigating other posts and all your hard work trying to speak your mind is wasted.
April 18, 2024 at 2:59 am
Anonymous
<i>”If you search this page for “Jewish people’ you will find one instance and that is, PA, your use of the phrase at 8:25.” </i
SO, SO sorry. You have to drop “the” to find your quote saying that “…if you hate the actions of that state your hatred can rationally be targeted against Jewish people.”
The point, of course, remains exactly the same.
April 18, 2024 at 3:07 am
Anonymous
Heavy drinking would certainly explain a lot about Bolithio’s unhinged rants here, but doesn’t excuse his blatant lying.
April 18, 2024 at 3:33 am
Anonymous
“What I’m not saying is that antisemitism doesn’t exist, it does and I’m sure it does in spades in the Middle East, but not all of it is not justified based on Zionism itself and the actions of a right-wing Israel and the US despite the UN since 1967.”
Exact quote from Jon 6:34, April 9th. Cut and pasted to avoid any possibility of an inadvertant extraneous “the” or any other pathetic excuses for hairsplitting evasions.
April 18, 2024 at 6:37 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
Bolithio – As you know PA isn’t debating, he is character-attacking but I’ll do what I can to heed your advice but long-form posting is what I do b/c complicated issues deserve an attempt at nuance. I am not a great writer and I don’t get paid for this so I don’t edit as much as I could/should. I would suggest to all to avoid this comment because I will be winging it without a clear topic but to try to set up what I think is obvious – that hatred in times of conflict and war is rational, justifiable and if we somehow want to deny this then we are denying a major aspect of what it means to be human.
Mitch – I agree with PA that it was generous to post your thoughts, I will also say that we’ve spoken about this before and what I’ve had on my mind goes directly to when you’ve defended what I’ve considered hatred so again, I don’t mean to be unkind or not return your generosity with similar generosity. I will say this though, I also don’t think you are in any way Islamophobic or racist agains non-whites or a colonialist or anything else we say on my side of the divide; you and I just have different perspectives on the nation of Israel.
So I do want to compose a brief, better-than-usual post on something that is obvious, that this statement is true, whether we like it or not…
What I’m not saying is that antisemitism doesn’t exist, it does and I’m sure it does in spades in the Middle East, but not all of it is not justified based on Zionism itself and the actions of a right-wing Israel and the US despite the UN since 1967. (April 9th)
…and these are idealistic at best…
The irony is that Jon’s insistence that “deep hatred” of an entire group is “rational” and “justified” due to the actions of some members of that group, is exactly the mentality of the worst, most intolerant, and most violent elements in both Palestinian and Israeli society. (April 16th)
No, it is never “rational” or “justified” to hate whole groups of people for the actions of other people who happen to belong to those groups. It’s incredible that this even needs to be stated, but that’s where we are. (April 16th)
So, not only is it “rational” and “justified” to hate entire groups based on what some members of that group may have done to some members of your group, but even to hate entire groups in the present, for what some of their ancestors may have done in the past to some of members of the group your ancestors belonged to. (April 16th)
FYI, a little about myself since PA has made this thread largely about me and I’ve, for the moment, engaged. I feel I’m exceptional in that I avoid hatred of nearly anyone, yes, I suppose the hottest animosity I feel is toward Zionists, but even then, if pushed, and like Mitch, I’d be aruguing that at the end of the day all they are doing is trying to create the best world for themselves and their children. If you have any question about the lengths I go to try to understand the other side, please check out the SoHum records, especially those threads where PA was in a moral panic about my positions on impeachments, on Trump, on Jan 6th etc.
Also pertinent is my theory of politics, the one I have put together to help me understand politics, local, national and global. Similar to the heirarchy of needs, there is a politicial hierarcy of needs/wants which the polling never properly captures. The top 3 are negatives, these are things we liberals are against:
I just wanted to put that out there to emphasize a couple of things, a) I’m not just speaking out of my *ss, you may think so of course, but this is stuff I’ve thought alot about and b) hatred and bigotry is top of mind for me and I understand, that as a human I too have my own blind spots, which, btw, is why I believe understanding that hatred, or it’s twin anger, aren’t to be wished or bombed away, but we should understand that both persist over time and when we have ultimate and absolute power, as our military budget has purchased us, we should be doing a better job of understanding the consequences of the impact of that military power.
April 18, 2024 at 6:54 am
Just Trollin
jonboy…..when will you accept that PAC is a SHE ? She admitted it several years ago, but for some reason, she won’t acknowledge it now. What….are you not willing to admit that a female can be so hateful?
April 18, 2024 at 6:56 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
One other assumption or bedrock of my perspective is I don’t think any nation or people are exception other than the fact that we all are exceptional in our own ways. I think that as humans we all have the spark for greatness, whatever and however a culture defines that and I think what we do in the West forget that we are judging other cultures with our ideals.
I also believe in identity which means if I grew up in Mitch’s shoes, with his parents, with his lived experience, I would, not with certainty, but in all likelihood, share his views.
If you understand this and still choose to inflame or nourish your own hate for others, then I think you are doing something wrong.
April 18, 2024 at 6:56 am
Just Trollin
boli…..looks like jonboy didn’t read that part about….” no one wants to read an essay”…..
April 18, 2024 at 7:17 am
Anonymous
Understanding that people often do hate entire groups based on the actions or perceived actions of some members of those groups is different that claiming that this hatred is somehow “justified” or “rational.” It’s not. Not when aimed at Jews, Muslims, Arabs, Turks, Armenians, or any other groups.
Yes, bigotry exists. Yes, we can endeavor to understand it. No, it’s never “justified.”
Jon complaining about being criticized for calling anti-Semitism “justified” is every bit as ridiculous as it would be for someone to openly and repeatedly state that racism is “justified” and “rational,” and then complaining about being perceived as racist based on their own words.
April 18, 2024 at 7:22 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
So, short and sweet, this Israeli soldier’s sentiments in the Tweet below to me is hatred, and imo there can be no worse demonstration of pre-meditated hatred because it is not only dooming Gazan’s to be peasants in a modern world, but be cause the soldier is celebrating this exact fact.
And from what I remember, and Mitch please correct me if I’m wrong, you justified this hatred as you were empathetic asking how we’d feel if we had our wives raped and murdered. You were not wrong of course and I didn’t hear PA comment or call you morally degenerate.
This is what I’m talking about when I say hatred (which I didn’t say in that original tweet, but anti-semitism is a type of hatred) and when I say it’s justified. I get where that Israeli soldier is coming from even if he f*cking wrong, as btw, were the Hamas soldiers who murdered civilians on 10/07.
PA, do you have any Irish relatives? How do they feel about the English, do they have warm feeling toward that group of people. Perhaps you’d quibble (sorry, rant) about the mis-use of the word “hatred” for this generational feeling, however you’d prefer to phrase it, but I doubt you’d deny it exists or it is justified.
What about how Britons as Germany flew sorties over Great Britain, what about the Jewish diaspora during WW II, what about Ukrainians today or Bosnian Muslims during the 1990’s. The list goes on and on and on and in those moments of conflict or atrocities, and for generations after it’s both rational and justifiable to feel hatred for a group of people and/or a nation.
I can all but guaruntee that the children of today’s Gazan orphans will understand what I’m saying, even if you don’t. So no, I don’t agree with this point* you re-iterate over and over and if you call that doubling down in my moral depravity, sobeit. What I think you are doing is denying or ignoring what it means to be human and even if we may agree on what we need to do to channel harmful or destructive feelings for a better tomorrow, you know unlike Hezbollah or Hamas or the IDF or the US post 9/11, to deny the reality of how people feel and react to injustice perpetrated on a mass-scale because they can, is to perpetuate the cycle of hatred and violence rather than doing what we do today – murdering 35 powerless people for every one of your own murdered and razing their civilization in a show of force.
*
The irony is that Jon’s insistence that “deep hatred” of an entire group is “rational” and “justified” due to the actions of some members of that group, is exactly the mentality of the worst, most intolerant, and most violent elements in both Palestinian and Israeli society. (April 16th)
No, it is never “rational” or “justified” to hate whole groups of people for the actions of other people who happen to belong to those groups. It’s incredible that this even needs to be stated, but that’s where we are. (April 16th)
So, not only is it “rational” and “justified” to hate entire groups based on what some members of that group may have done to some members of your group, but even to hate entire groups in the present, for what some of their ancestors may have done in the past to some of members of the group your ancestors belonged to. (April 16th)
April 18, 2024 at 7:33 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
And just one more thing about hatred. One thing you won’t see me doing is in any way justifying hatred through treating enemies (in international conflicts) or opponents (in domestic) as sub-humans. Anti-semites have centuries of experience at this and it is abhorrent, as is, for example, dehumanizing racist tropes against African Americans in this country. That may be rational, for example, it’s how we helped gin up hatred against the Japanese in WWII, but it’s never justified, not even to win a war as important as WWII. That’s what you get with wokeness – centering anti-bigotry, so no, Mitch and Bolithio, I appreciate your kind and/or supportive and/or cautionary words but I’m not worried about what an anon says about me, I have a good and clean concience, at least as far as bigotry goes. :)
And honestly, PA is just the tip of the iceberg, this is a strategy and PA is as good as any Republican or Tory or Trumpist in implementing that strategy and sadly so are way too many liberals in both the UK and US. Where is Jimmy Carter or Jeremy Colbyrn or even Bernie Sanders when you need them? They were all put in their place and it’s my belief pro-Israel and Zionists are being used in a greater battle to tamp down any unseemly democratic socialism in a capitalist or #NeoLiberal left-wing establishment in both countries.
Ironically, while Israel itself continues to enjoy the benefits of democratic socialism. Whatcha going to do?
April 18, 2024 at 7:36 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
I tried JT, and failed. As Popeye says “I am who I am”. Scroll down folks if you need to, no one is making you read my posts.
TL/DR: If you do scroll down, the two essential paragraphs are the first two in the 7:22 am post. The rest gives context.
April 18, 2024 at 7:53 am
Mitch
In case it isn’t clear, let me make it clear. I have great pride in considering myself a Zionist, and I think Israel is among the most idealistic nations in the world. To the extent that is not obvious to others, I view that as due to it being surrounded by countries whose leaderships were happy to ally with Nazi Germany, and have sought its destruction since before its birth.
April 18, 2024 at 9:59 am
Anonymous
“…it’s both rational and justifiable to feel hatred for a group of people…”
Nope, not unless the entire group, every single person in it, committed act(s) that led to the anger.
Hating people for what other people did, just because they look or sound like, or share a race, religion, ethnicity, nationality, gender identity, etc, with the people you feel have wronged you, is, simply put, raw bigotry.
Racism is never justified.
Anti-Semitism is never justified.
Etc.
It’s not an even remotely close call…unless you’re a moral degenerate desperate to justify your bigotries.
April 18, 2024 at 12:03 pm
Eric Kirk
Zionism is pretty basic – it’s the belief that Jews are entitled to a homeland on the small stretch of land to which they have an ancient claim. You can debate it, but it’s really not that sinister.
Were non-Jewish Arabs displaced? Yes, but there were many more millions being displaced all over Arabia as the vestiges of the Ottoman Empire finally dissolved and Sunnis ran off Sharia and vice-versa, and Coptic folk were chased from one place to another – it was a chaotic time. In the meantime, hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees were in what we would call Israel having fled European genocide that killed 6 million of them, and hundreds of thousands of Sephardic Jews were arriving as Britain and the UN were losing their ability to protect them in the Arab states. The UN had a tough choice – what were they going to do with all these Jewish refugees surrounded by people whose leaders had allied with Nazis? They couldn’t all be brought back to Europe even if they were welcome and willing. The U.S. didn’t want them. What were the options?
But mostly, with all of the displacement of Arabs all over the region, why the obsession over those displaced by Israel – a small fraction of the total? The obsession can only be based on the fact that they were replaced by Jews instead of Muslims.
April 18, 2024 at 4:17 pm
bolithio
“But mostly, with all of the displacement of Arabs all over the region, why the obsession over those displaced by Israel – a small fraction of the total? The obsession can only be based on the fact that they were replaced by Jews instead of Muslims.”
This is some take Eric.
Palestinians exist as refugees all over the world now, including in America, and their “obsession” with not being oppressed by Israel is not anti-Jewish. The obsession with ending the destruction and murder of their people is not antisemitic. The obsession wanting to remain in their ancestral lands is not born out of a hatred of Jews.
Think about what you just said. The idea of a small homeland for Jews is not sinister and was a just cause following the holocaust. As for the ethnically cleansed Palestinians, what are you saying? Tough luck? Just go be with other “Arabs”? All arabs are the same right? Your desire to remain on your homeland must rooted in a hatred for Jews? Come on.
This “obsession” is projection – that is – the obsession is Israel policy as the ethnostate that just cannot allow Palestinians in their own boarders, or the lands they Occupy to have equal rights. This is not something that is being perpetuated against Jews by Palestinians. Pointing to reactionary gorilla groups like Hamas is no justification for denying basic human rights to millions of people, or doing war crimes, or collective punishment – especially when it is those very actions that literally breed the reactionary sentiment that radicalize people to doing actual terrorism. This has been going on for decades.
If it were not for the 50 years of apartheid, and the ongoing ethnic cleansing and violent annexing of territory from the West Bank – and now the whole destruction of Gaza – we could be having a very different discussion about the State of Israel.
April 18, 2024 at 5:28 pm
Jon Yalcinkaya
Zionism is pretty basic – it’s the belief that Jews are entitled to a homeland on the small stretch of land to which they have an ancient claim. You can debate it, but it’s really not that sinister.
And what about the same logic for Palestinians? 🤔
56 years of this b*llsh*t and the LIBERAL Democrats in this God-forsaken website don’t see through the BS and double standards. Or at least they are mum if they do.
April 18, 2024 at 5:47 pm
Anonymous
If only the Israelis had not occupied the West Bank and Gaza completely out of the blue and for no reason whatsoever, the totaly peaceful, non-radicalized Palestinians and the combined armies of Israel’s very friendly, non-hostile neighbors would never have been forced to get in their time machines to go back in time and avenge that future occupation by repeatedly trying to wipe Israel off the map!
April 18, 2024 at 6:53 pm
Henchman Of Justice
Guessing Anonymous just above likes to bloviate jews as the only Israelis after thousands of years…
…I’d support a MMA grudge match between Jew Lord Yahweh, and Christian Lord God… with the victor challenging Allah…
…Then, Let Jesus Christian Almighty chime in since JCA is no God, but the offspring of a raped slave mortal woman…
April 18, 2024 at 7:01 pm
Henchman Of Justice
Jews vote too, like Palestinians supposedly… as nazi jew sympathizers rely upon…when slamming Hamas…and palestinians…
correction for below: Jewish society, not Israeli society…
Anonymous
The irony is that Jon’s insistence that “deep hatred” of an entire group is “rational” and “justified” due to the actions of some members of that group, is exactly the mentality of the worst, most intolerant, and most violent elements in both Palestinian and Israeli society.
April 18, 2024 at 7:03 pm
Henchman Of Justice
Jew supporters done ran out of compelling claims decades ago…I personally laugh at every jew who believes in the jew culture bullshit…
April 19, 2024 at 7:06 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
Eric: Zionism is pretty basic – it’s the belief that Jews are entitled to a homeland on the small stretch of land to which they have an ancient claim.
PA: The only people for whom that’s “hard to take” are those who believe that Jews are the one group — unlike Turks, or Greeks, or Iranians, or Japanese, or you name it — that must never, ever be allowed to be in the majority, not even in one tiny piece of ancestral homeland.
Mitch: In case it isn’t clear, let me make it clear. I have great pride in considering myself a Zionist, and I think Israel is among the most idealistic nations in the world. To the extent that is not obvious to others, I view that as due to it being surrounded by countries whose leaderships were happy to ally with Nazi Germany, and have sought its destruction since before its birth.
When is the Kurdish nation going to be born? They don’t have a homeland and need and deserve one. If the answer is, well they didn’t suffer the Holocaust, what was the legal process by which the German/European crime was transferred to what we are now presenting as a Jewish homeland? May I ask a follow up? What about the Palestinians who also called that land their homeland, with, btw, an ancient claim. Aren’t we using the Judeo-Christian perspective of ancient claims here?
Also, so we are on the same page, I hear all the right wing bloviating over the past several decades about this Nazi-sympatizing Mufti but which Arab nations EXACTLY allied with Nazi Germany? To be fair, I don’t see any evidence that the Turks or other Muslims were especially quick to pick a side but ALLY? That would be difficult, wouldn’t it given Hitler’s Aryan supremest views?
April 19, 2024 at 7:09 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
And, Kurdish aside, what about that Palestinian homeland, why did we veto that UN vote to recognize Palestine as a full member of the UN? Antisemitism? How does that work?
April 19, 2024 at 7:33 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
PA: You do you, l’m not a victim, I get your POV that I’m a moral degenerate, that’s all fair game, but this crosses the line. It’s a clever turn of phrase, but l’ve never supported terrorism, in fact I condemn it. It’s also just factually incorrect because I despise Syrian leadership as a Sunni myself, but you know all us antisemites belong to the same moral degenerate group.
But thanks for confirming the convoluted reasoning by which you reach the conclusion that Zionism justifies anti-Semitism. You’re certainly not alone in that belief, joined as you are by the leaders of Iran, Syria, Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, etc.
I just wanted to post that, which I noticed yesterday, in context of this Google employee’s experience as a Muslim and (presumably) critic of Israel. I’m sure if you two had a discussion you’d deem him a moral degenerate too. Which is fair game in politics but a terrorist? No, that is Islamophobic and we all know after 9/11 how easy it is to conflate the two in our Judeo-Christian nation.
April 19, 2024 at 8:32 am
Henchman Of Justice
Thanks Jonboi for that last video… as a caucasian, I have argued this guy’s points relative to many issues USA sticks it’s foreign nose into…I have not supported jews since high school when I was able to really begin to understand how messed up Americans are in supporting other cultures problems!
I do hope that jews get kicked-back to Judea!!
April 19, 2024 at 9:04 am
bolithio
Two days ago I read about how an IDF drone struck a makeshift playground built by refugees in Rafah which killed 11 kids and injured scores of others. Over the past 6 months of this shit you start to get numb reading about the daily horrors. If you took the time to read about the IDFs “Lavender” and “Wheres Daddy” AI software they are using to make kill lists and bombing targets you know by now that the “human shield” argument is totally gone, and that “any male” is considered a terrorist and is free to kill – and that their intended strategy has been to target suspected militants when they are home with their families – knowing full well they will be killing all of the people around them when they send a 2000 lb bomb to kill these AI generated suspects. Its dystopian beyond anything I could have imagined.
Just when I thought they could not come up with anything worse, psychotic and evil, holly fucking shit – look at what they are doing now:
https://www.newarab.com/news/israel-broadcasts-baby-sounds-lure-palestinians-gaza
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/israeli-army-broadcasts-intimidating-sounds-lure-kill-and-forcibly-displace-civilians-nuseirat-camp-enar
Drones broadcasting the sounds of children in distress waiting to shoot dead anyone who comes to help.
April 19, 2024 at 10:46 am
Just Trollin
Word is that Zelensky is pissed that the jews and arabs are stealing his thunder……
April 19, 2024 at 11:37 am
Eric Kirk
Word is that speculation without citation on social media is worth every penny spent on it.
April 19, 2024 at 12:18 pm
Eric Kirk
Meanwhile, word is that Trump is uncontrollably farting in the courtroom. Does he need a diaper? I’m only half joking.
https://lamag.com/politics/something-stinks-about-donald-trumps-trial-it-might-be-trump?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR3UaHDoHdGZhJTij3e-0O7mOKPOUwL1Pxaxws8LpXesYj_vMCbRGrmf82A_aem_AejrXLoizF2S9iY4CFLvXUViGYscwAsCF-qZTyxdVeBrEzveOqeylc8nAA-8G1vaSy_b8FHrd_bY6oYoCfRM4El5
April 19, 2024 at 12:49 pm
Anonymous
“this crosses the line. It’s a clever turn of phrase, but l’ve never supported terrorism, in fact I condemn it. It’s also just factually incorrect because I despise Syrian leadership as a Sunni myself“
I didn’t say that you love the Syrian leadership, I said that you share a specific belief with the likes of Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, and the leadership of Iran and Syria, namely your repeatedly stated belief that anti-Semitism is “justified.”
Unable to deny that, you instead pretend that I said something different, and then complain about the imaginary false accusation that you’ve just invented, declaring huffily that “this crosses the line.” In other words, it’s your typical dissembling, evasive nonsense, including the usual whiny victim posturing.
but you know all us antisemites belong to the same moral degenerate group.
Not at all. I have no doubt whatsoever that there are various different groups of morally degenerate anti-Semites. Glad we got that straightened out.
April 19, 2024 at 12:50 pm
Just Trollin
Props to magoo. He fessed up…..
April 20, 2024 at 5:35 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
How very unamerican of me to think so much like America’s terrorist enemies. But who would expect less of someone descending into moral degeneracy?
I’m not a victim, I’m just pointing out the absurdity with a wry grin.
April 20, 2024 at 5:40 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
Are we disputing that the most idealistic nation did this, ignoring it or saying “yeah but, Hamas did worse”.
April 20, 2024 at 5:58 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
And because I can’t help myself, this is a lie. I would never say this.
There is a missing qualifier which makes that quote way different from what I said, but I know the drill, this is how you do you PA. What is so absurd about the whole oft-repeated ordeal is you do that while expecting 110% fidelity to your own quotes ignoring the greater implications such as the fact you a compared me, let’s just say a not Judeo-Christian if not a Muslim, to terrorists.
But I don’t play these games, or I do everything I can to resist them. The problem is when I do, the rot that is your focus on the individual rather than the topic festers while continuing to ignore or evade the topic, and reality at hand. (See 6:22 am on 04/17 and I could add a few more entries now)
For example, I’ll repeat the question, how many of AIPAC’s Democratic opponents in Democratic primaries do you think are antisemitic? Is the a Muslim in Congress who isn’t? Also, would you compare how any of them think to notorious & violent terrorist groups? Would it be appropriate for anyone to do so without rightfully being accused of being islamophobic?
April 20, 2024 at 6:12 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
The heart of the dispute, it seems to me, despite all of PA’s postering & my postering in response, is this… Does there exist a brand of what some would call antisemitism but what I would call anti-Zionism that exists that is distinct from the cringeworthy & b*llshit antisemitism of caricatures, largely but not exclusively European, and rooted in both bigotry & religious intolerance, and that lead to the most heinous crime against humanity in human history, and hatred that I’d contend began just before the creation of Israel, when Jews who lived across the world were asked & told to live on what we all agree is a tiny strip of land and had other indigenous people who were not Jewish who lived there but would soon no longer be the majority, nor allowed to be the majority because of that other brand of antisemitism?
April 20, 2024 at 6:16 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
PA, and the U.S. Congress I believe, say no, they are both one and the same. I disagree and I think the position that antizionism is antisemitism is what AIPAC is selling and what both Congress and all but a few Democrats, have bought.
April 20, 2024 at 6:39 pm
Anonymous
Hey, I only said that some racism is justified, said the racist.
Hey, I only said that some anti-Semitism is justified…
April 21, 2024 at 8:08 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
April 21, 2024 at 8:10 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
April 21, 2024 at 8:28 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
And I presume PA that you’d agree with this NYT categorization of the protests on campuses as Antisemitic. Combine that with the Beck’s of the world who call them pro-Hamas which some of your comments lean into, even if you don’t explicitly say the same thing.
And bolithio, I did want to address your comment from a week ago or so again. I don’t like arguing with someone like PA, not the way he goes about it with personal attacks, but I get that perhaps he thinks of me as beyond the pale, hopelessless hateful and thus not worthy of discussion as Mitch has said to you or as I treat JT and HOJ. But the reason I’m here are to try to engage with those interested in politics as I am and sometimes I don’t need their thoughtful or fair participation to come up with epiphanies such as I did at 6:12 am yesterday.
That’s something I learned through this process, even a process exemplified by interactions of a nearly a month of being called an antisemite. The fact is, contending that anti-zionism is not antisemitism is an uphill battle in this country in a way that it isn’t around the rest of the world outside of Israel or most of the Jewish disaspora if we are going to accept PA’s number of 95% (if memory serves) of Jewish people supporting Zionism. That’s a tough uphill battle with loads of money and political support on one side and truth (imo), humanity and common sense on the other.
What’s so interesting is the Democrats who support this notion that a pro-palestinian protest is better described as antisemitic or anti-Zionism is, by definition, anti-semitism cannot or will not address the fact that Republicans support them usually 90 to 100% on this fact and both Democrats and Republicans are utilizing the very authoritarian means of cracking down on dissent that they, as anti-Trumpists, warn us about. You know, things like censorship, McCarthyism, police crackdowns of demonstrations, etc.
It’s an uphill battle, it’s a battle where you will be called all sorts of horrible names and be compared to American enemies and thus be deemed anti-American yourself. It’s an old well-tread playbook that I’m quite familiar with having lived through 9/11 and it’s aftermath. What I learned well after 9/11 though, 12 years later, was to find my voice and never to feel compelled again to be silent.
Again, I’m not a victim, PA is doing his job and expressing himself and doing what he feels is right fighting bigotry, and I appreciate that, even if I couldn’t disagree more with his POV.
April 21, 2024 at 8:37 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
In response to the 6:39 where you said “Hey, I only said that some anti-Semitism is justified“… I’ll ask again…
How many of AIPAC’s Democratic opponents in Democratic primaries do you think are antisemitic? Is the a Muslim in Congress who isn’t? Also, would you compare how any of them think to notorious & violent terrorist groups? Would it be appropriate for anyone to do so without rightfully being accused of being islamophobic?
April 21, 2024 at 8:56 am
Anonymous
Have any of those people repeatedly insisted that (some) anti-Semitism is “justified?”
As far as I am aware, they haven’t. But if they did, then it would be entirely accurate to point out that they agree with notorious and violent terrorists on that point.
Now if I said that such statements by those individuals somehow meant that (some) Islamophobia is “justified,” that would be Islamophobic.
Criticizing individuals for their own words or actions: not bigotry.
Endorsing hatred of entire ethnic, religious, racial, etc groups = bigotry.
Not the least bit hard to understand…if you’re not a moral degenerate.
April 21, 2024 at 8:57 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
Yes, and this has been the case for the BDS movement for decades. It’s both and it’s part of the same problem which is the answer to Mitch’s question about “why Israel?”. And campuses are only the tip of the cultural & political iceberg in the US afaic. This is how you move from Carter to Biden on Israel.
April 21, 2024 at 9:02 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
April 21, 2024 at 9:03 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
April 21, 2024 at 9:11 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
And if PA ever answered my question about Congressional Muslims & antisemitism, my next question would be about the 5%, or whatever the number is, of anti-Zionist Jews.
April 21, 2024 at 4:12 pm
Mitch
Jon,
The tiny minority of anti-Zionist Jews, at least as I understand things, have based their anti-Zionism on religious nutcase attitudes, saying various conditions for Jews to return from diaspora have not been satisfied.
Considering them supporters of Palestine is a bit like taking an anti-vaxxer seriously because the bible interpretation they go by says “thou shalt not allow oneself to be injected with lifesaving chemicals, it is an abomination.”
It is, of course, equally ridiculous for Jews to assert, as some do, that God gave the land to the Jews. Britain and the United Nations divided the land, and some small amount of it went to the Jews who had settled there as a result of the Zionist movement.
The slogan prior to Israel, I believe, was “a land without a people for a people without a land.” Palestine was sparsely settled at the time Zionism began, and all people living in what became Israel were guaranteed equal rights, at least in theory. Of course, many Arabs left, as instructed by their leadership, and some Arabs left because of Jewish violence against some Arab communities.
April 21, 2024 at 4:57 pm
Just Trollin
LOL…… I knew he couldn’t last…..
April 22, 2024 at 3:40 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
The tiny minority of anti-Zionist Jews, at least as I understand things, have based their anti-Zionism on religious nutcase attitudes, saying various conditions for Jews to return from diaspora have not been satisfied.
Are you kidding me? Amy Goodman, Peter Beinart, Jewish Voices for Peace, Corey Robin, David Klion, Sam Adler-Bell, Katie (@sexualityscholar on TikTok), Mondoweiss, thousands of Jewish protestors at pro-Palestinian protests across the globe, the pro-Palestinian speakers at Eureka City Council meetings, and hundreds of thousands of others across the globe?
While I can’t say they all would be anti-Zionist, I presume they are anti-Israel as currently constituted given its debt of honor long before 10/7. But it’s not just Israel of course, it’s the U.S. too and it has nothing to do with religion, and I’m guessing religion or their ethnic identity which they all but certainly adore as I do my Turkish roots & heritage, but that they understand something fundamental; all of us are greater than individuals or groups of individuals and no one shall be subject to crimes against humanity whether that is due to retribution or in the attempt to win back Kerusalem & the Temple Mount.
In short Mitch, the religious nutcases with influence (Christian & Jewish btw) are on your side, the pro-Palestinian voices I listen to, the ones I listed, are SECULAR, or if they are observing, they do not advertise it as, say, Michael Medved does, and their point is what we share that is greater than their (your) Jewishness or my Turkishness which is…do you know what it is?
April 22, 2024 at 3:41 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
A: …our shared humanity.
April 22, 2024 at 3:47 am
Anonymous
How many of these folks have stated that (some) anti-Semitism is “justified?”
Jon hiding pointing to these folks to exonerate his justification of anti-Semitism is akin to Republicans pointing to Clarence Thomas to exonerate the GOP from charges of racism.
April 22, 2024 at 3:58 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
Five thousand, six hundred and fifty seven thriving years of Jewish culture PRE-Zionism. What Katie is talking about is Zionism’s debt of honor and white supremacy which she is rightfully critical of.
Katie, and people like her that speak so honestly, bravely, generously, and clearly as a fellow human bring tears to my eyes and will eternally give me hope despite it all.
Is Katie antisemitic Mitch? Is her anti-Zionism based in religiousity or the opposite, humanism? Are those like her antisemitic if they dont believe like you do in the Zionist project and can see it for what we believe it is and what it has done?
April 22, 2024 at 4:13 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
if you’re not a moral degenerate.
I should be grateful that you take the time to speak with me PA. I hope you don’t continue to be surprised at the depths to which I will go (from your perspective) in the future as I’m not sure what could be lower in politics than hatred.
FWIW, when I feel this way about someone, I just don’t talk to them, it’s not worth my time. But you aren’t like that, you call out incels or mental disorders or moral degeneracy if that is what it takes for an honest discussion of politics. I’m not victim postering PA, just explaining what I see and have seen. I’m a participant even if I disagree with as much or more than I would with a Trumpist , on say, racism or misogyny as I do you on the state of my own moral degeneracy.
I’m glad you focus so much in the weeds (ie SoHum interlocutors) and do not broaden that out to any other Democratic politician as AIPAC does. I’m insignificant in the big scheme of things, they are not and are our way out of this mess.
April 22, 2024 at 4:15 am
Just Trollin
Iraq PM visits magoo, goes home, and fires rockets at US troops. Magoo must have told him “don’t”…..
https://www.reuters.com/world/five-rockets-fired-iraq-towards-us-military-base-syria-security-sources-say-2024-04-21/
April 22, 2024 at 5:20 am
Just Trollin
after they cooked up uncle bosie……https://youtu.be/gx3VbXY1XWo?si=iTHT74Yli-b6q9Oh
April 22, 2024 at 7:29 am
Just Trollin
He’s whining that the FREE weapons aren’t up to his standards. What a dick…..https://www.newsweek.com/volodymyr-zelensky-patriot-air-defenses-ukraine-russia-1892578
April 22, 2024 at 9:35 am
Anonymous
“you call out incels or mental disorders“
It’s literally been years — I would guess at least 3 or 4 if not more — since I came to the conclusion that it was not only fruitless, but arguably unfair, to engage with the person you’re referring to, due to their obviously deterioriating mental condition.
And as I scroll past (without commenting) the increasingly hateful and deranged posts this person has offered since then, I believe more than ever that disengaging was an entirely sound decision.
April 22, 2024 at 11:06 am
Anonymous
He’s whining that the FREE weapons aren’t up to his standards.
Nope. Try reading the article before posting the link.
April 22, 2024 at 7:18 pm
Anonymous
This Palestinian gets it. All of it. Read the whole thing.
April 23, 2024 at 5:02 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
Get that nice resistance-free guy an Atlantic article STAT! If only more Palestinians could submit to their overlords with such complicity. Clean cut, no hint of religion, takes loss of family in an asymmetric war like a champ, the world needs more like him.
As far as I can tell, resistance means … condemnation, criticizing & decrying. rejecting, denouncing, exposing,
Sanctioning. Good. Combating, also good, but how?
Then the rest of it is capitulation. I’m not saying there is anything wrong with any of it, yes Israel has a right to exist, yes antisemitism must be denounced, yes Zionists are *gasp* a diverse group of people, and on and on.
It seems to me what he is saying is we lost and we need to make the best of it, which is again rational, but not necessarily compelling especially given in order to give up any resistance or claim to what was yours you must trust that you are dealing with good faith actors. And, if indeed there is a good faith actor, who is to say he/she too won’t be assassinated?
I certainly don’t trust PA and I’m not sure why any Palestinian would trust the U.S. or Israel to have their best interests at heart if they chose to succumb to shock and awe or complete and utter annihilation and become hoteliers and write long secular posts on Twitter.
The thought is good, but it’s not realistic, unless the plan is to force this attitude on the region over decades or centuries.
April 23, 2024 at 5:12 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
And let’s not lose track of this idea of war. When it comes to defeating Hamas, or any terrorist group it’s “war” but when we are talking about the civilian populations caught in the middle and under the U.S./Israeli bombs, all resistance except for gentle denouncements and rebukes must be bleached out.
Here is a thought based on the golden rule, if you expect that type of behavior demonstrate it, especially if you are holding ALL the cards.
Which again brings me to the importance, if you really want Palestinians of this type to lead negotiations, to treat terror as crimes, as we do in Ireland & to the Irish, instead of wars. We should also capitulate some of our sovereignty, a tiny fraction of the sovereignty we are asking those beneath our bombs to surrender, to international courts who, we must be able to accept, will not always agree with us.
Otherwise, we are Mitch McConnell maximalists ourselves and we are just looking for just the right rando from our enemy (international) or political opponent (national) to bend the knee to us as a demonstration of our power while ignoring the humanity of all those on a righteous resistance.
April 23, 2024 at 5:27 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
Whether it’s the class war or an actual war, readers & writers of magazines like the Atlantic would like one side to trust that the other knows more, knows better and will hold itself accountable as long as you behave and give everything you can to the cause.
The truth is the is conflict and we need leaders who will fight effectively for us. Luckily, at least wrt labor, we’ve found one even if that nice man will not be the next representative of Palestinians, much to PA’s dismay, I’m sure.
https://inthesetimes.com/article/fain-cease-fire-speech-press-conference-union-palestine-gaza-israel-solidarity-ceasefire-uaw
April 23, 2024 at 5:30 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
The truth is there* (not the) is conflict…
April 23, 2024 at 8:42 am
Anonymous
Get that nice resistance-free guy an Atlantic article STAT! If only more Palestinians could submit to their overlords with such complicity. Clean cut, no hint of religion, takes loss of family in an asymmetric war like a champ, the world needs more like him.
Great job mocking a Palestinian peace advocate who has real skin in the game, has suffered real losses, and obviously cares deeply about the fate of the Palestinian people and has thought deeply about the way forward.
Ironically, what this person is advocating is exactly what many supporters of Palestinians insist that the overwhelming majority of Palestinians really want — not what Hamas and Islamic Jihad and the Iranian regime etc want, not the destruction of Israel, but simply an end to the occupation and independence for Palestinians in a state of their own, living side by side in peace with their Jewish neighbors.
This guy advocates for exactly that, and gets dumped on as a “submit to their overlords” tool, his call for nonviolent resistance (which at other times Jon insists that he too supports), coupled with peacemaking efforts, gets labeled ” not realistic.”
Is it really any more unrealistic than continuing on the path of eliminationist rhetoric and nonstop violence against Israelis, elevating murderous terrorist groups and allying with dictatorial regimes who cynically use the Palestinians as pawns in their domestic and international politics? How well has 75 years of that approach worked out? How “realistic” is it to continue down that path and expect better results?
Durable peace between the Israelis and Palestinians will come when more of the citizens and leaders in both populations see the wisdom and utility of the approach Mr. Alkhatib proposes, and fewer engage in the kind of nihilistic knee-jerk rejectionism that Jon so pathetically displays here.
April 26, 2024 at 4:13 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
He has succumbed imo. He has felt the power & might of Israel’s position and wants it to end. I think that is the point of Netanyahu & Israel’s position and this nice man gets it.
What he doesn’t talk about is the accountability. How will Israel be held accountable? That is the key to this discussion, to what I call a debt of honor and to what I call justified hatred of Israelis, because some small fraction of us have infinite hearts & the means to survive injustice like this good man, but for the rest of us we want to ensure some semblance of fairness and to achieve this there must be accountability and some means of resistance when there is not accountability nor fairness.
Having said that PA, of course I’m not co-signing with the alternative you described as you described, but what we are co-signing as the US is the continued expansion of Israel beyond 1967 borders and a system of apartheid, not to mention the ethnic cleansing of the past 6 months.
It’s ironic that you call my reaction a knee jerk reaction when what we are talking about is the defense & safety of Israel, something they failed so desperately to do against such a pathetic, and yes evil, military excursion and yet this entire enterprise of slaughtering 30,000 people was no different in spirit & impact from our own shock-and-awe campaign from the Bush years.
It does nothing to solve the crime of terror or mis-directed hatred & terror, it just seeks to pound sand, kill some percentage of those participating in the terror, pummel and slaughter the lives & livelihoods of civilians who might support the terror and reinforce and demonstrate who has the real power of destruction that will reshape the future.
And then justify that slaughter and destruction.
April 27, 2024 at 5:46 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
Stop “wasting time with slogan-driven and maximalist activism that does nothing,” and instead “use your western privilege to actually help the Palestinian people and promote a pragmatic path forward by engaging Israeli and Jewish audiences.” 👈🏻 #wisdom
@tomwatson posting the same random guy. (His account is now locked). Point, Democratic centrism is an ideology as narrow in demographics and as ideological as the Democratic left. In this case using the same random Palestinian to try to make their point of view when you know there are millions of Palestinians, but you all happened to find just the one you like. And I concur, he is a really nice guy. Where I don’t agree is that he is not a good advocate for Palestinians, but he would serve the maximalism of Netanyahu & like-minded Zionists.
April 27, 2024 at 6:17 am
Just Trollin
My my……how things have changed……
April 27, 2024 at 8:24 am
Anonymous
Where I don’t agree is that he is not a good advocate for Palestinians
He’s certainly a much better advocate for Palestinians than you are, though that is admittedly a low bar.
And no, he’s not the only Palestinian who recognizes the total failure and complete counterproductivity of the violent eliminationist approach of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Iran, etc, which has cost so much and yielded less than nothing for the Palestinian people.
It just seems singular and jarring to you because you don’t hear those voices from within your informational “bunker” where you are safely ensconsced in the approved groupthink.
But you’re certainly not alone in your opinion, given that the one thing the eliminationists on both sides of this conflict agree on is that people like this cannot possibly represent Palestinian interests. Hamas and their ilk regard such people as traitors to their cause, condemning them as surrenderists who have “succumbed,” in other words on the same grounds you do, while the Israeli right-wing insists they have no partner for peace, because moderate Palestinian voices like this are but exceptionally rare outliers, again exactly as you portray this man to be.
So congrats on finding yourself, once again, firmly in agreement with the worst of the worst on both sides, that such voices of moderation are to be mocked, minimized, and summarily dismissed as unrepresentative and meaningless.