&#8220;Is Garberville Going to&nbsp;Hell?&#8221;

September 11, 2013 at 10:33 am

Let JW win, keep posting. JW deserves to win every once and awhile. He’s not always wrong, just mostly.

Cookie

Hi Forest Queen: I was really thinking you and suzy blah blah were the same person. Glad to hear you are not.

Hi Narration: Haven’t been able to get the book you read, yet, my partner and I are finishing a book called “Fruit Hunters”. It is an awesome, remarkable book. A book about the pursuit of all the fruits on earth. With wonderful accounts by the author of his finds and travels. One of my favorites is a story about meeting the guy who does grapple(with a hard a). The author in the first paragraph describing the guy said “the whiff of deceit follows …..”. There are fruits I have never heard of. One fruit, the Miracle Berry, was banned for commercial use because of the sugar industry. Doctors say this fruit would end diabetes. Another fruit, durian, is banned from hotels and airline flights because of it’s pungent, badass, smell. About a thousand more just as interesting. A great book. About the past, present, and future of fruit.

As far as Garberville, again, it is pretty sad, and disgusting in many ways. Human and dog feces I had to deal with at the bank. And several really scary looking men. It is not fun to feel scared in ones hometown.

September 11, 2013 at 11:31 am

Ernie Branscomb

Bunny said earlier:
“The other night my husband mentioned at the market that actually a lot of us locals, people we have known forever here, look messy and dirty and yes crazy. But we tolerate all of them. My point is I live and operate a business in one of the beautiful places on earth. Life is pretty good here. You gotta take the good with the bad. Peace & Love.”

I said earlier:
“On the good side, some of the best people in the world live right here I SoHum. Most are my friends.”
Bunny is one of my many friends, and I agree entirely, “life is pretty good here”.

September 11, 2013 at 11:50 am

Narration

Hmm, what can you bellieve…

…on the internetz…

September 11, 2013 at 11:50 am

Narration

Cheers, Ernie, of course didn’t mean you 😉

September 11, 2013 at 12:44 pm

Just Watchin

dJ…….that’s high praise coming from a cab driver……

September 11, 2013 at 1:41 pm

Watch justin

Hey just watching, you mean “former” cab driver, as Djon says he’s job challenged at the moment.

September 11, 2013 at 2:05 pm

September 11, 2013 at 2:13 pm

JW. That’s the second time you brought that up. I’m not bothered at all by it. Working class and proud. Love the job and would still be doing it if the company …. that’s another story. But you do realize you are breaking Rush’s first rule don’t you? Don’t clue the working class that you are actually the $elite$. (If I may speak FQ for a moment) If you do, the Reagan Democrats will keep coming home where they belong.

Have you ever, ever heard Rush denigrate a working man? Me neither. He even has to sometimes pall around with Union workers, he distinguishes the Union leaders from Union workers. Common now, you gotta make Papa Rush proud.

Just Watchin

dJ…..I’m really not that political a person, and don’t really care who knows that I’m a millionaire.

September 11, 2013 at 2:14 pm

Anonymous

Then why mention it?

September 11, 2013 at 2:19 pm

September 11, 2013 at 2:49 pm

No, it’s fine to say you are a millionaire, and congrats btw b/c I know that is important to you, but you shouldn’t call out … buuuut, if you aren’t political then it don’t matter anyway. Keep doin’ it and maybe we can finally get a Democratic Governor and legislature in there and overturn some of Florida’s bassackwards self-defense laws.

Cab driven, unemployed, democratic-socialist and general no-good lazy bum,
democraticJon

Not political, that’s rich. If you know to use the word Democrat instead of Democratic, I hate to say it, but your political.

Joe Blow

Ernie, I read your comment up top. Good perspective from someone that’s been a player in this whole mess. Welcome to the world of “what goes around, comes around.”

September 11, 2013 at 4:01 pm

suzy blah blah

Cab driven, unemployed, democratic-socialist and general no-good lazy bum

-no djon, there’s a difference, a big difference, between being cab driven like JW and suzy are, and being a cab driver like you. Got that straight? good. Now for some advice from “Ask Suzy”. You don’t need to worry about “the company”. Just come on down here. There’s plenty of good company in soHum. And good company is what it’s all about.

And if you want some, er, fares … you should try cruising soHum for sure, we need more cabbys down here, specially if you have 4wheel drive and you’re willing to go down, go down, go down miles and miles of dirt roads. But it’s worth it cuz the tips are big in these hills, or should i say “phat”. (there’s more millionaires per capita in soHum than in SoFla. JW). And if you do a good Robert di Nero imitation suzy will invite you in for some homemade onion soup.

September 11, 2013 at 4:13 pm

September 11, 2013 at 4:17 pm

Get it! Good on you suzybb. I would have been proud to drive either of you around. Next time. And glad your back.

suzy blah blah

-“either” of suzy. LOL!

September 11, 2013 at 5:19 pm

Ask Suzy

Hi Forest Queen: I was really thinking you and suzy blah blah were the same person. Glad to hear you are not.

-no problem.

September 11, 2013 at 6:23 pm

Just sayin

Labeling himself as a proud unemployed cab driver explains why “democratic Jon” has so much time on his hands, and His self descriptions and posts does make him sound like the stereo typical “shrill pontificator”

September 12, 2013 at 5:18 am

"Henchman Of Justice"

Satan says,

Time for a Bloody Mary!

Then, to Hell in a hand-basket goes mankind,

Lucipher’s decree

HOJ

September 12, 2013 at 5:29 am

"Henchman Of Justice"

Ernie wrote this below (Dan Johnson is a plagiarizer),

Response: SO true! McKinleyville gets these types because it is a larger version of Garberville in a sense. New road work on the main road and viola personal belongings and gargabe left on side of road. Now, people just drive around at night, walk around at night, shoplift at night doing their dirty deeds.

Ray’s got stolen from when bike riders went by the water melon stand and put one into a back-pack. The guy pussied-out and left the gal who seemed to be the belt wearer anyhow. Yet, HOJ just laughed because Ray’s is a shit hole supermarket that price gouges.

It is one thing to be pissed-off at society, but when people take it out on mother nature by damaging the environment in these manners and making society look even more “garbage filled” is unacceptible. Of course, these types are also homelss usually or lazy fucks who have money to dispose of properly, but want that consumer product instead of disposing the old one correctly.

That is messed-up more than the homeless person with no money!

HOJ

September 12, 2013 at 6:21 am

September 12, 2013 at 8:44 am

JS. You labeled what I labeled myself wrong. Never, ever said proud unemployed. Proud former cab driver. What I’m doing up there in the quote you mischaracterized is deflating. I don’t give a poop about how you characterize me. If I don’t care if you call me unemployed, democratic socialist, cab driver, shril pontificator, or a guy with too much time on his hands (ie no-good-lazy bum). I am pre-emptively accepting true(ish) labels, some of which I am proud, others not. If I accept those distractions shouldn’t they be off the table so we can talk about stuff? It is my take on how to deal with trolls, redirect.

Shrill pontificator? Yes. Fine. Are you going to show up on the 23rd for the BOS GPU GP meeting? I hope you do even if you don’t see through the faux democratic process we are being subjected to. All by the team that was screaming about the democratic process from the top of their lungs, until they took power at least.

Anonymous

One shouldn’t humor a response to anything ernie writes, but…ernie writes “The only difference with today’s “dregs of humanity” is the people of today have a sense of entitlement like I’ve never seen before….It seems that the rest of the world really does owe them a living.”

Replace “dregs of humanity” with “wealthy middle class” and the statement is still synonymous. What ernie is saying, is that he’s comfortable in life and doesn’t communicate with a lot of homeless people. Rich or poor, some people wash their ass every time they take a shit, whereas some people just give it a quick wipe and call it good. Homeless people don’t own all the televisions, appliances, mattresses, toys, bleach bottles etc. that are being dumped everywhere more than ever. Household waste collection is booming. Homeless people aren’t having babies like a growing collection of facebook trophies. Homeless people aren’t throwing all that garbage out their window while driving along in their vehicles. The “dreg” is an animal element. You wouldn’t own chickens and not expect a mess.

And everybody is aware of everybody’s growing disparity, compounding “the problem”. So why, here in Humboldt County, is the same formula for disaster still being followed to a T? Follow the money. The people involved are very comfortable. They’re not paid to look the other way so much as they’re paid well enough to have worked their morals into what amounts to complacence. When you fall off the money map, they don’t really care….you don’t matter to them at all. They speak of you as though you are no longer a fellow human being.

This exact conversation, these exact exchanges have been going on for decades. I’ll say it again…the future is painfully predictable. That’s why nobody in our government or media is willing to stick their neck out and really tell their audience where they truly believe the county is headed. Developed areas of Humboldt County really are looking more and more like Everywhere USA. The future is lots more of the same, you can view the blueprints, you can see what’s being put on the table. By the beginning of 2015, the changing climate will be very serious. Our representatives and the media will whitewash everything as they are now. We can all look forward to consuming far more “recycled” waste water. Business as usual will prevail, a huge portion of those facebook babies will be dumpster diving for food.

September 12, 2013 at 11:15 am

Just sayin

To wear a self label of “proud unemployed cab driver ” as some sort of badge of honor is pretty telling about “democratic jon” . That either says that he’s not very ambitious in life and prefers his downwardly mobile unemployed lifestyle, or maybe, for reasons only he knows, he can’t even hold down a cab driving job. Either way, when he touts his opinions about how humboldt county should be or how people should live, he shouldn’t be surprised when people don’t take him very seriously, since he doesn’t seem to have his own life together.

September 12, 2013 at 1:36 pm

suzy blah blah

“you may be a millionaire or you may drive a cab –but you’re gonna have to serve somebody”.

September 12, 2013 at 2:02 pm

Just Watchin

I’m curious suzi……who am I going to have to serve?

September 12, 2013 at 2:33 pm

suzy blah blah

–somebody –duh.

September 12, 2013 at 2:58 pm

Ask Suzy

I’m curious suzi……who am I going to have to serve?

-it’s good to be curious JW but the song says clearly who you have to serve, it’s a paraphrase of bob dylan’s Serve Somebody in case you didn’t get that::

you may be the supervisor of Humboldt or Mendocino
you may drive a cab or you may play the casino
you may be a billionaire or you might have to work
you may be an attorney or you may be a clerk

you may be a blog addict typing on the page
spellcheck at your command, italics in a cage
you may use fake names so nobody knows who you are
posting on another blog using a different gravatar

you may be in Redway or you may be in Key West
you may drink rotgut or you may enjoy the best
you may be the manager of the local Radio Shack
you may be on the corner hustling and dealing crack

it may be d’evil or it may be d’good but you are gonna have to … (etc.)

September 12, 2013 at 10:36 pm

"Henchman Of Justice"

AH, an interchange at Indianola cut-off at HWY 101 and those pesky HWY 101 corridor signs that destroy a bay view, just as HOJ lamented often…..and surprise, surprise, Coastal Commission resoundingly approves (only one “no” vote).

Not so much the surprise – the “pay-off”

What is the “pay-off”?

a pledge of $1,000,000.00 to go toward a “Trail System”…….AND, all signs removed within the bay corridor. Without the pledge of “money” and sign removal, what would the “shifted political vote” have been at the Coastal Commission???????????????????????????????

Groupees create subsidies from government hand-out programs, yet CalTrans is apparantly operating with updated “tacts” because of the “alternative modal transportation groupees”. The two sides just bonded through John Q Taxpayer

The pay-off,

HOJ

PS. Safety should have never even been considered for the removal of signs or the addition of a seperated walking trail (THAT WAS POLITICAL LEVERAGE USING OTHER DISPUTES). Safety is about vehicles (including bikes), not pedestrians (unless of course they are high on shrooms or acid and already jaywalking, then, at that point, who really cares except the insurance companies and unfortunate driver who hits and kills SAID “drugged-out pedestrian”). There is not a pedstrian problem along WHY 101, but the speed limit is too low and an interchange was needed twenty years ago!

September 12, 2013 at 10:40 pm

"Henchman Of Justice"

In other news,

Rob Arkley writes a letter on homelessness but fails to see that his delapidating properties draw these homeless crowds of disidents too.

Hypocrisy and Wealth,

Smoke and Mirrors,

Up ass, Out mouth,

In mouth, Out ass,

Bipolar Disorder,

Arkley,

HOJ

Ps. Didn’t Miss Arkley serve as an elected councilwoman, but refuse to “encourage” a solution to “homlessness”? Was the wrong Arkley serving as an elected official because Mr. Arkley sure cares much on the topic.

September 14, 2013 at 4:32 pm

Cookie

My partner and I went shopping today. It seemed like there were more homeless than tourists. It seemed like there were almost more homeless than locals. In Redway, we were told a story by a checker, homeless people were really bothering customers. The cops were called, no one from the dept. showed up. This is one of the reasons the homeless do what they do. No repercussions.

September 14, 2013 at 6:37 pm

"Henchman Of Justice"

In McKinleyville, a homeless guy was looking at people reach into their pockets, waiting to see any sign of money. Then, the panhandling started.

In one sense, if the person is really in dire need for help, and that person has been trying to better themself, ya might fel bad.

In another sense, if it is a moocher, screw ’em.

In yet another sense, how many look the part and just want to grovel?

In the end, people without disabilities, but are able-bodied will emit their own character and personalities as either someone who is independent or dependent, for any various reasons,

HOJ

September 15, 2013 at 10:11 am

suzy blah blah

-I support Estelle’s position on the homeless.

September 15, 2013 at 12:42 pm

Cookie

And just exactly what is Estelle’s position on homeless suzy blah blah?

September 16, 2013 at 5:53 am

September 16, 2013 at 12:14 pm

Where is everybody? Is it gardening season? I am getting some delicious tomatoes right now. In Eureka! Thank goodness for global warming. (sarcasm, AND poor science – but still – it was warm)

First time I had a decent tomato since I can remember. (I don’t go to the farmer’s markets as often as I should) Still, even with harvesting all those tomatoes I still have time to comment here and there – common people.

September 16, 2013 at 12:21 pm

. . .well, this ‘everybody’ could go for a bloody mary, as reminded by HOJ.

September 16, 2013 at 1:24 pm

~oh yeah, the topic is Garberville, since the mid 80’s always been a favorite and unique place to me – obviously community oriented.
Ernie@ comment one seems to have the right slant on it.

Anonymous

Did anyone catch Monday Morning Magazine on KMUD this morning, Estelle was telling Dennis all about her walk-a-bout around Garberville with two Sheriffs, too see for herself and talk with people living and camping on the streets and woods around and in Garberville? She said the first place they visited was the Garberville Cemetery and watched a man peeing on a grave! One would think you would get arrested for doing that in front of two Sheriffs, she did not say. She also said in talking with people living on the street, they were mostly from out of town or state and also not homeless, just traveling around from town to town………..

September 16, 2013 at 5:11 pm

Not A Native

I’m trying to embed a video but here’s a link if it doesn’t work.

I’m continually amazed at the easily voiced hypocrisy surrounding drug use that’s displayed locally by the exact same people who extol being non-judgmental and totally embracing of diversity and individual expression. These are self described “good people” who cite their moral roots in pacifism, “hippie” values, and Sunday school lessons of Jesus’ parables.

As long as someone’s drug of choice is pot and a few others, they’re welcomed as fellow travelers and their quirks and sometimes bad behavior are accepted in the name of tolerance. But if someone’s drug of choice isn’t on the ‘acceptable’ list then they are vilified, demonized and said to deserve the worst sorts of treatment including inflicting physical pain. Just check out a few of the posters at the Outpost for hateful dehumanizing and stereotyping. And its all purely selfish and fear based. These ‘good people’ are just as mean, xenophobic, and fear based as their antagonists, the so-called “rednecks” who have only alcohol and nicotine on their ‘acceptable’ list and moral roots in militarism and judgmental Church dogma.

The whipping boys are meth, cocaine, heroin. Drugs that the 60’s middle class baby boomers largely didn’t get access to and therefore retained the fear and horror lies they were told about them by the mainstream that they supposedly rejected.. Well now, here comes a scientist who’s debunked all that,

“Eighty to 90 percent of people who use crack and methamphetamine don’t get addicted,” said Dr. Hart, an associate professor of psychology. “And the small number who do become addicted are nothing like the popular caricatures.” Crack and meth may be especially troublesome in some poor neighborhoods and rural areas, but not because the drugs themselves are so potent.

September 17, 2013 at 5:56 am

Bunny

I’m speechless.

September 17, 2013 at 7:55 am

Cookie

Molly/MDMA is the drug that needs to be totally feared.

September 17, 2013 at 4:06 pm

Just Watchin

Google Dr. Hart……what a freakin moron….

September 17, 2013 at 4:20 pm

Narration

I’ll say (noting Bunny’s).

I guess you can see when the real drug culture writes here.

September 17, 2013 at 4:34 pm

Not A Native

WNYC writes about Dr. Hart:

His credentials are sterling: Hart has studied addiction and the brain for the last 25 years. He has tenure in Columbia’s Psychology Department. He’s on the National Advisory Council for Drug Abuse. His book, High Price, questions the War on Drugs. But his insistence on using lab research to advocate for changes in how drugs are dealt with in courts like this one is what makes him stand out.

“Drugs are not as dangerous as we have made them out to be,” Hart says. “I’m trying to get people to use the data, the empirical evidence, and when you do that, you realize that we have been lied to, the public has been lied to.”

Professor Hart has been taking the stand and submitting written testimony in family courtrooms around the city, advocating for children to stay with their parents, even if their parents have tested positive for using marijuana.

Hart says the belief that casual marijuana use impairs your parenting has no scientific basis — and pot use that isn’t excessive is on par with having a drink now and again: “We don’t remove children because their parents drink alcohol,” Hart points out. “My kids would be removed if that was the case.”

September 17, 2013 at 5:04 pm

Narration

Do you remember the alcohol culture, Not a Native?

This was not too pleasant for parenting either. This guy is misguided at best.

In an internet-communicating world, you are going to hear from lots of edge cases. As many wil suggest to you, judgement is advised.

September 17, 2013 at 5:49 pm

Anonymous

Different drugs affect different people differently. That said, different drugs still affect people differently. Hence…the difference in “drugs”. How much sugar do you consume every month? How much salt? How much caffeine? How much alcohol? How much monosodium glutamate? How much xanthan gum? How much steroid-pumped meat? How much laboratory food? How many prescription or otc narcotics? What, exactly, is a “drug”? How and why is alcohol not commonly refered to as a “drug”? Not that I give a shit…shoot your newborn full of smack for all I care to care…everybody’s life goes on without you. A kid in Africa just died from aids while you read this…I don’t hear any sympathy calls.

September 17, 2013 at 6:16 pm

hillmuffin

Hart makes sense…

September 17, 2013 at 8:06 pm

Unk John

Just Watchin – I Googled Dr. (Carl) Hart and read some of the on-line info. I would like to know what you read that makes you believe he is a “moron.” I found nothing to indicate low mental ability and although I presently have no way of confirming his statistics on addiction, I think what he says could be true.

Maybe you found something I didn’t. Maybe your Google is better than mine. Let me know.

September 17, 2013 at 9:16 pm

suzy blah blah

-good points NAN. The local pot heads looking down on the tweekers smells like a type of class-ism reminiscent of Reefer Madness. Hart’s findings, in the studies providing alternative choices along with the drugs, are important.

September 18, 2013 at 7:45 am

Cookie

suzyblah blah: you never said what Estelle’s position on homeless is, the position that you support.

September 19, 2013 at 10:49 am

Cookie

Bunny: After listening to last nights KMUD news, I think Estelle’s position on the homelss population is to have the cops deal with them. Get rid of them. I feel your position is a lot softer. How do you feel about Estelle’s position on the homeless? Especially since you voted for her, and I think her position has changed since being in office? I would truly appreciate your thoughts.

September 19, 2013 at 1:26 pm

suzy blah blah

-Cookie, just in case you just woke up or something we have homeless camps in our bushes, we have transients roaming our streets, we have panhandlers panhandling our tourists, there’s urine and feces all over our towns, human and dog … and Estelle’s position is that she feels that ideas addressing these issues are needed to be looked into.

September 19, 2013 at 2:23 pm

Cookie

Bullshit suzy blah blah. The transient camps have been a problem for years. It was a discussion during the last election. Estelle has changed her tune. She wants the cops to deal with it. She never once said or asked for ideas to look at the issue and how to deal with it. That was Clif who said that.

September 19, 2013 at 3:36 pm

suzy blah blah

-what are you afraid of Cookie? All i can do for you is state the obvious facts. Estelle herself said that she was interested in looking into the homeless/transient issue.. But it seems quite obvious by now that you have personal issues with Estelle that prevent you from hearing her. Sorry, suzy has answered your questions honestly to the best of my ability, but i simply can’t help you if you refuse to listen to the truth.

September 19, 2013 at 4:23 pm

Cookie

Estelle did not say that suzy. Estelle said she wants the Sheriff to do foot patrols in Garberville.
On another note, remember the 101 project that Estelle was so against back in 2011? The one that Ernie got his feathers all in a ruffle, that both he and Estelle said that Clif had taken away funding from our rural roads by voting for this? The big STIP funding controversy? Guess what? Estelle just voted for this same project. The one was against, she is now for. The same exact thing Clif voted for. You suzy, are the one who doesn’t hear the truth.

September 20, 2013 at 7:48 am

townie

As a long time Garberville business owner and resident ( who, like many, has had to hose off human and dog feces from my front and back entrance manny many times) I and many others appreciate what Supervisor Estelle has been doing in helping all of us deal with our ongoing “travelers” problem in town. Many of these travelers come in and have been extremely disrespectful and hostile. Estelle has been outreaching to many segments of our community to help us get a handle on this. She did a tour of Garberville where she engaged with many of these out of town travelers, she showed pictures of people illegally camping at our garberville cemetery. They had dug a hole next to someone’s grave and was using it to sh#t in and also showed a picture of a man actually urinating on someones headstone. This is the kind of disrespect that these travelers have for us and our town.

If foot patrols would help minimize that disrespect and bad behavior in our town then that would be great, it’s a good start. Anybody that would have a problem with that is not part of the solution.

September 20, 2013 at 10:55 am

Joe Blow

People have to live. So, what are you saying needs to be done?

If you don’t like crap on your sidewalks, etc. maybe some of you community minded business people, like say… Ernie Branscomb should come together and provide, at the very least, toilet facilities. And I mean something more than toilet paper and a shovel. Sicking the dogs on people in need only makes them mean and you know what happens then.

September 20, 2013 at 11:56 am

HUUFC

How about the bums go home, make peace with their families, get a job and become productive members of society? Stop wandering from handout to handout, town to town, complaining that you don’t have a free toilet. Guess what if you buy gasoline you can use the bathroom. If you buy lunch you can use the bathroom. Try the concept, it’s called civilization.

September 20, 2013 at 12:05 pm

Cookie

Supes to Take One Last Look at Guiding Principles
Posted by Ryan Burns on Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 10:45 AM
click to enlarge Humboldt_County_ca_seal.jpg

On Monday evening, the Humboldt County Board of Supervisors will revisit the highly contentious issue of guiding principles in the (on and on and) ongoing general plan update.
Back on June 6, as you may recall, the board voted 4-1 to swap out the existing list of 12 guiding principles, which had been developed through a long and robust public process, with a new set of 11 principles that had been written behind closed doors.
The new versions were put forth by 2nd District Supervisor Estelle Fennell, who worked for almost three years as executive director of the private property rights group HumCPR before being elected.
Her reworded principles featured weaker language about planned growth and environmental protections while suggesting the county should “honor landowners’ right” to live where they please and “incentivize” production on resource lands.
The board majority — Fennell and 1st District Supervisor Rex Bohn in particular — argued that the original principles seemed to have been written by a staff that had an agenda, but 3rd District Supervisor Mark Lovelace urged both his fellow supervisors and the public to review the documented public input and key findings developed through a series of 27 public meetings held all over the county. ( Here’s a big pdf file of a 2004 staff report, if you’d care to do just that.)

Following public outcry over the sudden and dramatic switch, the board agreed to hold one more meeting before finalizing the principles. That meeting will happen Monday from 6 – 9 p.m. in the supervisors’ chambers at the Humboldt County Courthouse.
If you’re looking for more background information or want to submit a comment, the county has a website devoted to the general plan update.

September 20, 2013 at 12:42 pm

September 20, 2013 at 4:16 pm

Thanks Cookie! I’ll check that out.
I agree with you in general HUUFC. But we can’t force them to do that, and they may not have the capacity for one reason or another to do that. That’s why I disagree with you on policy apparently.

That Other Anonymous

“… if you buy gasoline you can use the bathroom. If you buy lunch you can use the bathroom. Try the concept, it’s called civilization.”

So “civilization” means… no public restrooms? Huh? Sounds kinda backwards to me.

September 20, 2013 at 9:29 pm

Bunny

I just saw this now Cookie. The truth is I as far as county politics and issues go I do not pay any attention. I’m kind of embarrassed to say it but my days of caring are over. It just doesn’t interest me. I know much more about national issues and politics. So I don’t know if she has changed her opinions because I never really listened hard to what they were. Really truly. As far as our transient issue she’s between a rock and hard place. Damned if she does, damned if she doesn’t. Everyone wants answers and a solution. She hears that we are outraged and has to do something to help the citizens she hears from. I was on the Chamber board for years, this was always in the agenda. I remember way back that she got involved in finding answers to help solve, went to the county, held meetings etc. You can try but it’s mostly not going to work and we will always be trying. I do not think she has a hard heart about them. I think she would try any good idea. Do you have one? I don’t. But I do know toilets are a good idea. I wonder how the bathroom committee is coming along.

September 21, 2013 at 1:54 am

suzy blah blah

-i’m afraid to say your jealousy about being snubbed sometime in distant history is petty and is of little concern to us Cookie. You are a filthy liar falsely accusing suzy of saying that others have said things that i have NEVER said that they have said. And your dirty slimy mouth and name-calling, your foul words that are full of disrespect towards good intentioned people in our community who are actively doing things with the concerns of the seventh generation in mind and who have the good of the people of the community and lives of our amazing and wonderful children that are being raised here in our hearts, are a foul stench in the face of the love we have for humanity.

But, other than being a mosquito to be swatted, your negative attitude toward these and other issues on the table is of little concern and does not matter nor will it be of hindrance to those of us working on community issues like the clothing, feeding, providing living space, and employing of the transients and fulfilling their other bodily needs. In other words our love for humanity and those without housing rises above the juvenile jealousy. lies, name-calling and hissy fits that you wallow in almost daily. We are here acting from the overflowing love in our hearts, doing something which will benefit the race for generations to come. We are far above you and have nothing to do with your selfish, greedy, narrow minded hatred my dear.

September 21, 2013 at 2:18 am

Buffy

What is Estelle’s position on a public restroom?

September 21, 2013 at 3:21 am

suzy blah blah

-Buffy, i’m not sure what exotics you have in mind about Estelle, but i’m sure she sits down on it just like you do.

September 21, 2013 at 9:09 am

Cookie

Game on suzy. I will spend however long it it takes to find the post where you said you voted for and supported Clif.

September 21, 2013 at 11:10 am

suzy blah blah

showed a picture of a man actually urinating on someones headstone.

-awesome! And thanks Townie, i hadn’t yet heard about that episode. If the picture is available to view online please post a link to it. Photos are much more valuable than mere talk. Suzy commends Estelle for going right to the center of the conflict and getting this golden evidence.

September 21, 2013 at 1:04 pm

Joe Blow

HUUFC :: Perhaps it’s time people like you practiced what you preach – it’s called self-deportation.

September 21, 2013 at 2:19 pm

HUUFC

Or, perhaps not.

September 21, 2013 at 7:48 pm

Joe Blow

Take a hint, buddy. Your days are numbered in this society.

September 21, 2013 at 8:06 pm

HUUFC

Well I can’t deport anywhere, I’m a citizen of the United States and California, and don’t plan on going anywhere. (except vacations and Giants games) LOL

September 23, 2013 at 7:25 pm

suzy blah blah

Game on suzy. I will spend however long it it takes to find the post where you said you voted for and supported Clif.

-ooooh, a game – a game – suzy loves a game, Cookie. So i’m sorry i missed your post about “game on” til i just noticed it now. First, i never denied saying that suzy voted for Clif. So there’s that. Second i don’t know why you should want to pretend i did, or why you care to torture yourself chasing down that meaningless bit of trivial data, but anyway i’m happy to save you the trouble of “tracking me down” LOL! Although i am sorry if i took the excitement out of the chase scene for you and your partner.

Maybe you can rally and call a foul and take her down the lane. Then you can throw a forward pass and hook it into the paint. Then when you reach first base you can pass an airball and dunk it home after which you can knock one out of the park. That will give you a season’s high biggest lead and when you do the ally oop back door pass and split defenders with a spin move to sacrifice a bunt the scorer’s table will call it a technical knockout against suzy on the game clock. End of the first half.

And as for positions, Who’s on first, What’s on second, and I Don’t Know’s in the porta potty.

September 26, 2013 at 12:04 pm

Anon.

Check out the front page of the redwood times this week. I just saw the photo of the dude takin a piss on someone’s grave. What a complete a- hole. No respect for the living or the dead.

September 27, 2013 at 1:27 pm

Anonymous

http://www.redwoodtimes.com/garbervillenews/ci_24165356/supervisor-fennell-takes-guided-tour-garberville-rsquo-s?source=most_viewed

September 27, 2013 at 6:15 pm

suzy blah blah

-suzy’s disappointed with Estelle’s low quality camera. I don’t see any pee. Do you? All i see is a guy standing with his back to me. He could be peeing and certainly was caught in a posture that suggests that. But i know of someone who was photoed in that exact same posture, and we all laughed at the pic when we saw it, but the truth is he was NOT peeing but only adjusting his belt.

September 27, 2013 at 8:14 pm

Not A Native

Its just ignorant to not know the local ethos. Its much more Humboldtian to desecrate and rob Native American grave sites than to pee in graveyards. Anyway, I saw the picture and my take is if he WAS peeing, he was doing it onto the ground not on the headstone. No worse than what passing animals and birds do every day. But I understand people’s sensitivity and hope those offended now understand and support the need for public toilets.

September 27, 2013 at 8:46 pm

suzy blah blah

No worse than what passing animals and birds do every day

-it’s not seen as a desecration to them. It could be seen in a different light to us too. Humboldt is known for finding the positive side. If Estelle dies, once a year on her birthday, suzy would be willing to go out of my way to pee on the grave to honor her memory. I would be willing to do the same for Doug Green, or Rod Deal or any other community hero that i admire. There’s a lot of good people who died and are buried around here. I wonder where one could get a map? Maybe we could organize a tour, charge 50$ per pee and give the money to a porta potty fund.

September 27, 2013 at 8:57 pm

suzy blah blah

-for Narration:

September 28, 2013 at 6:54 am

September 28, 2013 at 7:58 am

~i haven’t been reading this this thread . . . i gotta take back my “surrounded by Dead Men Walking” remark, when instead, we’re imbedded/immersed in infinite intelligence – now, if we can just get motivated enough to be on the same page 😀

September 28, 2013 at 8:38 am

The fiction, US democracy “government” is well and good, moving along its path of destruction and mayhem as it wages war on the world and American people -the true owners. Under the “color of law,” the fiction -the De Facto government, has hijacked the country. Time for the saints to come marching in and restore our de jure government of the people . . .living womb/men, not actor fictions, such as ‘judges,’ policy/Police men, and representatives of Corpse orations, etc.

They could not have done this without the ‘willing’ peoples help – the true owners and beneficiaries of America that have been trained and programmed, “dumbed down” to give up their Source-given UN a Lien able rights, thru registering, “liening,” their property and being required (asked) to apply for a “license” – licentious behavior.
(Lacking moral discipline or ignoring legal restraint, especially in sexual conduct, having no regard for accepted rules or standards), to do the things they have a full right to do without the state’s interference or fees, and asking/begging for, permission or permits-REGIStering-certifying-applying-licensing, etc.

It’s all about offer and acceptance – contract in maritime admiralty, law of the sea Merchant. Politely reject the offers.

The people are the owners, and the “Trustee” -U.S. INC. Government, has done a miserable job of over seeing the Trust. There is no trust in the US Government, the Trustees have “sold-out” their duty and run a ‘For Profit’ game for themselves “Treason” with the determent of the people, and when accused, have thrown the owners in jail, and stolen their property for their gain.

The people have collateralized birth certificates “special funds account” which has more than enough lawful currency of exchange to settle the accounts “AFV” – but are being stopped by Government Agents/employees/servants of the people, from exercising this duty and right, to protect against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

Remove the despots before they do more damage, and appoint new honorable trustees. We don’t need any election to do this, “if one is voting in the De Facto government elections, then you are committing treason against America, by election of your jailers that enslave you and your neighbors.” The owners/beneficiaries/executors have the right, responsibility, and duty to appoint their own trustee/agents to run their affairs honorably and without being enslaved by their servants.

hillmuffin

Slightly Off Topic:

who do you think will be Time Magazine’s Man of the Year ?

(i know, they call it Person Of The Year now)

could it be anyone other than Edward Snowden?

Eric?

September 28, 2013 at 8:45 am

That Other Anonymous

“The people have collateralized birth certificates “special funds account” which has more than enough lawful currency of exchange to settle the accounts.”

See what a lot of people don’t realize is that if you simply renounce the ALL CAPS name, invoke Maritime Law, decline to Contract with the Trustee/Agents and send Appropriate Notice to the Constitutional Sheriff, then you can file a Redemption Claim and receive the Full Balance of the Special Funds Account established as a Collateralized Birth Certificate under your Real Name when you were Born.

However, please Be Advised: This is a Highly Specialized area of Lawyering, requiring Extensive Legalistic Experience, so I strongly Advise you to Contract for my 12 part “Redeem Your Self!” videocassette series, in which I give Step by Step Instructions and Many Important Details. All this for only $19.95!!! Call Today, Supplies are Limited!!! 1-800-LAW-SUKR

September 28, 2013 at 9:02 am

Mitch

TOA,

“Highly @Specialized@,” not “Highly Specialized.” You may need a refresher.

September 28, 2013 at 11:17 am

September 28, 2013 at 12:14 pm

~ and, drum roll, it’s the three-week DiCK wavers – clockwork.

Banker owns the Judicial system. Judicial system works for the Bankers. Legislative is owned by the Federal Reserve, and the Federal Reserve Bank dictates to the bankrupt Executive Branch. What is there to not ‘get?’

You have to become acclimated with the language of a sovereign. Only goats have kids. That’s a fact whether type frustrated or not. We can’t get around that.

First and Last commandment – Keep your hands to yourself.
Second, never play another’s game.
The End

If one can find the resurrection for its’ self then all the rules are for naught. Mind control ‘government’ is for the government on their terms. If one is trapped in the physical and has no chance at redemption then that is the way it goes, the sheep will stay in their pens and like it, public policy is for the good of the masses, the convoy only travels at the speed of the slowest vessel. If one is in the public then their rules are your rules, if you don’t like it get out of the kitchen because the buck stops here. Who is the shepherd, and what is the flock?

suzy blah blah

-here’s a photograph of a beautiful innocent man seen walking naturally in Eureka yesterday. Now he’ll likely face charges dealing with mental illness. But suzy thinks it should be looked at as a case similar to Forest’s charge of driving without a license. In effect the only thing he did that could be considered by society as being objectionable is not having a “proper license” ie, an officially approved fig leaf. Which brings up Forest’s assertion that you don’t need a driver’s license. And i would agree and add that you don’t necessarily need clothes either. It’s another case of natural freedom being suppressed by corrupt law.

September 28, 2013 at 1:10 pm

Narration

suzy, ??? presumably this was the guy doing the peeing, though it doesn’t exactly look it, but don’t think I was in this discussion

Hope you got the drawings-with-Kerouac on the other long trail.

September 28, 2013 at 1:11 pm

Narration

I meant where you passed me a pic above this present one.

September 28, 2013 at 2:10 pm

suzy blah blah

-that’s Ginsberg and Dylan visiting Kerouac’s grave.

September 28, 2013 at 10:12 pm

Narration

oh. (!)

😉 Cheers then, s…

September 29, 2013 at 1:03 pm

September 29, 2013 at 1:37 pm

Forest, is it unfair to be amused by TOA’s and Mitch’s and even JW’s posts in the other thread. You know the oNe WIth ThE caps? As someone who has a really hard time remembering when and when not to capitalize, I think they are a little funny? But if you don’t like them, then I’ll ignore them too.

September 29, 2013 at 2:19 pm

~of course funny, that’s what J.W. is . . .funny ha ha.

TOA/ Mitch – arrogant to a fault. Not funny, but i do reply and it some how slows them for 3 weeks.

suzy blah blah

TOA/ Mitch – arrogant to a fault. Not funny

-it may have been sorta funny the first time or two djon, but any humor in mocking Forest’s writing by mimicking her style has lost its flavor long ago. It’s one of Mitch and Tra’s stock jokes that they have been pulling out for years. But the joke is really how foolish they look elbowing each other in the ribs like clowns, beeping their little horns, and high-fiving themselves at how clever their very stale humor is –as though everyone hasn’t already heard the same dumb joke many many times.

September 29, 2013 at 2:48 pm

September 29, 2013 at 3:04 pm

OK, got it. I’m actually on your side on this one suzy and FQ. Ignore.

Mitch

DJ,

The truth is neither TOA’s comment nor mine were funny. It’s curious, but some of us apparently find it difficult to read through the absurdity of FQ’s comments without responding in some way. Consider it a character flaw on our parts.

I think if everyone here acknowledged that FQ is simply nuts, the pressure that leads TOA and me to make our unfunny comments would go away without further comment from either of us. But viewing “debate” hear just leads some of us to attempts at sharing the absurdity.

For myself, it’s a bit like what I feel when I’ve read the latest from Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell, or when I hear someone like Dick “other priorities” Cheney cheerleading the latest war. I mock because I feel helpless in a world where others look soberly on and take it seriously.

September 29, 2013 at 3:05 pm

Mitch

here not hear.

September 29, 2013 at 3:22 pm

Just Watchin

Don’t leave me out Mitch. I’ve always said that FQ was nuts. And btw…….it strikes me as odd that dJ defends FQ and suzi, when all they ever do is insult him every chance they get

September 29, 2013 at 3:35 pm

September 29, 2013 at 3:38 pm

For Richardson Grove . . .

The playing field cont’d:

Methods are based on some truths, maxims of law, and knowledge of self. To go thru the motions and not know why is depending on fate or luck. That can cause damage or unwanted results.

By going to ‘court,’ it gives credence to the fact we recognize their power over us – CAN’T START THE SHOW UNTIL THE MAIN ATTRACTION SHOWS UP! It is an offer to play in their sandbox filled with sharp objects and unknown hazards to our well-being. It’s another’s game, a game of unknown rules, or how to play, a game that they may at a moment’s notice change the rules and don’t have to tell us. It is a game in which they speak a familiar language to the ear but cast spells over us with their words only they know the meaning of. If there is one moment of trepidation, one restless night, or a rapid heart beat when thinking of this situation, then ego is dragging spirit where it knows it doesn’t belong.

This is a chance to make good on something they do every day, day in and day out, it’s their job and they are very familiar with it, it moves very fast for them, they have a lot of customers to take care of.

September 29, 2013 at 4:53 pm

~he said, she said . . .who cares?

suzy blah blah

-it’s funny how commenters Mitch, Tra and Jw always whine and complain about the style of Forest’s writing, but when it comes to challenging the content they switch gears into insults –like FQ’s “nuts” or ” “one marble short of a happy meal”, etc. Djon, although you have a lot of learning to do concerning these matters at least you don’t indulge in the lightweight intellectualisms and crude sadistic mockery that some of the others do. My advice to these boys –if Forest’s mastery of law is over your head then either shut the fuck up, or shut the fuck up and listen, you might even start to get it. But puleeeze, check your stupid jokes at the door.

September 29, 2013 at 5:13 pm

Just Watchin

It’s one “frie” short of a Happy meal. Geeeeez.

September 29, 2013 at 5:44 pm

Mitch

Regarding the content of FQ’s comment stream:

http://abovethelaw.com/2013/09/the-stupid-pro-se-legal-theory-making-the-rounds/

September 29, 2013 at 5:54 pm

suzy blah blah

It’s one “frie” short of a Happy meal. Geeeeez.

-in advanced stages the illness progresses to a point where they start complaining when their own insults are not represented perfectly, like JW above. They’re sick. In fact their childish insulting and mockery demonstrate the same personality traits as a psychopath. If you look into it seriously you will find studies have been made showing how the use of mimicry is maliciously employed often by rapists, and in some cases serial killers, when ravaging a victim. It starts with mockery of their pets, playmates, schoolmates, etc. A careful analysis of the obtained data in one study shows significant evidence of sadistic cruelty being the prime motivating factor in mimicry. Typical results in other studies indicate that as the nation and world moves into an ironic era concerning moral dictums a definite trend towards the use of mimicry as a tool of evil is observed to be increasing on social networking forums. From my observations this has been the case.

“It is believed that cruelty by use of mimicry shows early tendancies of sadism within an order of magnitude inducing paranoid reactions accordingly. Typical findings reveal that in case after case the subject was deemed psychologically disturbed.”

This research confirms what has long been known instinctively, that mocking by means of mimicry is a symptom of perverted morals in the subject. A projection of the significance of this is sobering. I am hoping that the recent findings in this field will stimulate further investigations.

September 29, 2013 at 7:43 pm

September 30, 2013 at 5:12 am

~cheers suzy.

It is not my intent to bring up anger/hate out of others, but then that would be their choice to feel like that.

Mitch,
i see in your, extra-poor-try, posted link the word pro se. Meaning . . . you are clueless what it means or you wouldn’t have chosen that link.
“When words lose their meaning, the people will lose their liberty.” Confucius

Just Watchin

Awfully nice of suzi to come to FQ’s defense. Even she noted that her behavior was similar to that of the mentally ill guy walking naked thru town. Sad though that she has to resort to making up research results to justify her support. Maybe she can read to FQ when she visits her in jail.

September 30, 2013 at 6:11 am

September 30, 2013 at 9:00 am

Thanks Mitch – I think that link takes the right tack. I think it is OK to use humor against movements you might disagree with, but it isn’t OK to use humor against individuals – if I can make up a rule of political etiquette on the fly.

FQ, I love you, but there is an issue of eccentricity here. You know this and this is why suzy and HOJ love you too. The eccentricity is impossible to address in this forum, as I’ve discovered because we are going to have the Matrix conversation you will feel I’m taking the blue pill, I will say that Morpheus is selling you a dangerous lie and the red pill is only fiction.

The thing is there is a right and wrong, and I really think/know you are wrong on this. Posts like Mitch’s links should make this clear, but of course they just feed the fire. I don’t blame Mitch or TOA for their attempts at humor, I get it because they do care about you to and that is a sign that they have given up for the moment together and have chosen to share a giggle at the absurdity. I see that giggle but I don’t want to have it at your expense – unless you are giggling too. It’s a simple and simplistic deal, but it gets complicated.

Just Watchin

Mitch…… that link was almost as if it was directed at FQ. Maybe she could get the salamander to represent her in court.

September 30, 2013 at 9:05 am

Just Watchin

Speaking of HOJ…….has SP invoked the HOJ rule to it’s fullest and banned HOJ? http://lostcoastoutpost.com/2012/oct/9/introducing-new-henchman-justice-rules/

September 30, 2013 at 9:33 am

September 30, 2013 at 11:39 am

Jon,
You keep flip-flopping.
What exactly is it that you’re making a feeble attempt to defend? If everything is so great we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

I didn’t write the California Vehicle Code.
Section 260(a):
A commercial vehicle is a motor vehicle of a type registered under this code used or maintained for the transportation of persons for hire, compensation, or profit, or designed, used, or maintained primarily for the transportation of property.

I do not “Drive” commercially for profit.

Have you been sold the biggest lie, or did you buy it?

suzy blah blah

You keep flip-flopping.

-typical behavior of untrustworthy two faced lying politicians. Nonetheless suzy likes djon a lot and i don’t mean anything personal by this. I’m only aiming my criticism at his naive politics and ignorant immorality.

September 30, 2013 at 11:53 am

suzy blah blah

-djon, there has been research done showing that individuals who are considered to be eccentric by the masses are often highly creative. Studies in brain imaging, creativity research, and molecular biology suggest that these perceptions are not just based on a few anecdotal accounts of “weird” scientists and artists. In fact, they’ve found that creativity and eccentricity often go hand in hand, and researchers now believe that both traits may be a result of how the brain filters incoming information.

September 30, 2013 at 1:45 pm

Joe Blow

September 30, 2013 at 9:05 am
Just Watchin

Speaking of HOJ…….has SP invoked the HOJ rule to it’s fullest and banned HOJ? http://lostcoastoutpost.com/2012/oct/9/introducing-new-henchman-justice-rules/

Why I personally boycott anything that has “anything” to do with Hank Sims. That way his sewer scum stink can’t inadvertently rub off on me.

September 30, 2013 at 2:46 pm

suzy blah blah

morality

-Forest, dJon once drove taxicabs for a living you know. And he beLIEves that for anyone to drive they must have an official government issued license. He sees it as a matter of right and wrong –very deep. Oh, and no red pills either. That’s also something he believes. Besides that, it’s, er, The Matrix is, only fiction! So that’s the end of it. Anyway it’s too x-ENDtrick to debate.

Good to see you here Joe.

September 30, 2013 at 3:03 pm

September 30, 2013 at 3:14 pm

suzy – yes. I don’t disagree with everything in your last post. I’m not saying FQ is not awesome, I’m just saying she is wrong.

Flip flop, simplistic, politician, whatever. It’s a really difficult situation imho and different people handle it differently. JW uses humor to bully, I don’t know what to do. I can’t persuade, we speak past each other – and who am I to say what’s what. No-one.

So I wish her the best, try to be constructive, but also be strict about defining reality – because despite everyone having their own perception of reality, there also IS a reality out there too.

FQ, I won’t go back in at least not today. I’ve put in my time. I just wish you the best and will be here to advocate for the @system@ like I always do. You’ve taken the red pill, I’ve taken the blue, we are just going to speak past one another. It doesn’t mean I’m not interested, b/c I am, it just means that our conversations have limits. We speak past one another.

But I think it is valuable when Mitch or TOA bring in evidence of reality. I wish you would listen, b/c there are frauds out there who take advantage of people for a living. That’s my two cents, I know you have the same concerns for me living a lie in the @system@.

suzy blah blah

there also IS a reality out there too

-but you don’t know what it is. Even though you like to capitalize it you can’t define it. In your own words all you have is “your own perception”. That doesn’t mean the majority is “right.”

September 30, 2013 at 5:04 pm

October 1, 2013 at 6:17 am

. . . evidence of reality, you mean like facts? You guys haven’t brought anything to the table but your flag opinion.

October 2, 2013 at 12:39 am

This is my point about the pills suzy. Red pill, blue pill. I think I have a grip on reality. I have a science background. It doesn’t mean I’m right, it just means I have a limited training in understanding objectivity. Empirical evidence, controlled experiments, etc. It’s why I understand why scientific polling is more accurate than KINS’ daily phone “polls”. It’s also why I understand that anecdotal evidence (including’s one’s own experiences) are highly subjective.

It’s also why I respect that guy you were discussing with Narration when I came in – E.O. Wilson. I think you said he was OK, but boring or something like that. It was during the Gauguin discussion. Science is extremely boring and it does not answer questions we yearn tor, but it is the closest thing the animal kingdom has developed that helps us to describe our surroundings and pass that information on to other animals and actually begin to understand our environment in a way that is predictive.

There IS a reality out there. I do work hard to make sure my perceptions of reality match the actual reality. AND I am very cognizant that science does not cover all the spheres of existence. It doesn’t cover (well) spirituality; love, hate, beauty; it struggles in the social sciences, and it can’t explain the most fundamental whys. And, also, it can often be VERY wrong or misguided.

And, btw, I do think I’m right. It’s why the School Board Election is important to me. I would be very concerned if you or FQ were running. I’d like to see your policies before I pass final judgment, who knows, maybe we would agree? I notice a couple of School Board members on the board ran unopposed. There actually is a chance I might have voted for you over your opponent if I had the chance and knew your plans.

Ultimately, that is the reality we are talking about. The one in the paper’s and the blogs. The one that is discussed during election campaigns. The one that elected officials create rules, regulations and laws that govern our behavior. That is the reality I am discussing.

And I agree. The majority isn’t always right.

October 2, 2013 at 7:05 am

Alright, good. I told you all I was right. Last comment in the thread proves it.

Any further comments of course do not count toward establishing correctness. Correctness has now been established.

October 2, 2013 at 10:00 pm

boy democRATicJon are you ever full of sh*t today.

“Ultimately, that is the reality we are talking about.” “We”?
(BAR) fly paper laws “are designed to appeal to the simpler-minded part of the gene pool.”

No wonder people are losing their rights. It’s deserving of an idiotic society that can’t self-govern.

suzy blah blah

-once again Forest has won the argument hands down djon. She has shown factual evidence supporting her case whereas you have presented nothing that i have seen to disprove her statements. All you have done is claim there is a right and wrong … and, of course, you are right and she is wrong, so therefore -na na na. Pitiful.

October 3, 2013 at 5:49 am

democratic Jon

Strip existence down to words on a SP thread and you are right suzy. I think this is what Mitch and TOA were reaching for with the humor (and JW with the tough love) It’s just the red pill vs blue pill. What our perception of reality is. Facts and evidence and truth are on my (our) side. Why? because of the source of information. For one I don’t look to blogs for facts and evidence. They are a good place for a conversation though.

I suppose the “na na na “was appropriate given my last post, but I’m not coming from that place. I take this conversation extremely seriously because to me it represents a societal failure. Reality is a complex thing and I don’t pretend to have all the answers, but there has to be some foundation to the discussion and down at the end of these SP threads the foundation is gone.

But we are discussing it, which I like. I compare this to LoCO where there is no conversation, it’s just blah, blah, blah. My fear is that entertainment and what we enjoy (or is convenient) reading/discussing/believing is what we read/discuss/believe. News as infotainment. Infotainment as the foundation for our politics. Politics as the driver of policy. It’s a foundational problem.

October 3, 2013 at 6:40 am

Mitch

DJ,

You know science is not boring to those who devote some effort to understanding it, so why pretend it is boring? To say something is boring to the lazy or stupid is meaningless — the boredom is within their subjective unfortunate selves.

The Soviet Union discovered what happens when you try to replace reality as scientifically observed with truth-by-ideological-consistency.

You’re exactly right that science doesn’t pretend to answer all questions, or even any of the most important ones. For people who have healthy curiosity, numeracy, and an honest sense of their size versus that of the universe, though, it does allow a deeper understanding of the way the world moves.

October 3, 2013 at 10:13 am

HUUFC

Another nail in the coffin of civilization called California, Governor Brown just signed legislation allowing illegal aliens to receive driver’s licenses in California. Another bill on his desk would prohibit law enforcement from notifying federal authorities of an arrest of an illegal.
That’s one way of reducing crime. Here’s another suggestion, raise the blood alcohol limit to 50%, like magic,no more drunk driving.

October 3, 2013 at 2:12 pm

suzy blah blah

-djon, it is language that mainly creates the problems we are having in communicating higher truths. We talk past each other because we are talking about two different realities and there is little if any place for them to meet. For convenience sake we will call yours -reality, and suzy’s Reality. Although the real difference in scale between the two is far greater. Yours is a teeny tiny speck of insignificance in a vast meaningless universe. Only useful relative to a very limited understanding. But you have no idea of the extreme reaches of meaning and purpose that suzy has secured.

I have found that to people with your meager experience in this field that there is very little to communicate. In your reality, my Reality might seem like trying to understand a foreign language. You might understand a few of the sounds and meanings but the overall picture is beyond your grasp. Your reality compared to suzy’s is like comparing a glass of water to the ocean. That’s how much further advanced i am in this realm of study than people like you. That’s the reason it seems like i’m talking past you. On a blog like this i have to reduce the powerful thrust of my communication down to a thin stream of knowledge that isn’t too fast and overwhelming for you to handle. Yet it still it goes over your head. And so we are stuck with talking past each other. But if you focus you’ll see that what we have here is your reality, and suzy’s Reality, with the capital. I have suggested these language modifications as an introduction of a more focused understanding on your part.

So then, i have discovered a Reality that transcends language. If you suspend your smaller understanding for a moment and listen suzy’s “language” you may get a glimpse although i doubt you can get any more than that because the Reality suzy’s referring to is beyond language. IE there is as much or more truth between the lines as contained in the words themselves.

This understanding is deep, there’s no doubt about it. It is absolutely beyond your wildest dreams. I’ve touched on this with you before but it went over your head and past you, so before reacting i suggest that you sleep on it … and in closing i want to wish you the best. I never mean any harm towards you, i only critique your positions. And yes djon, there IS a realm beyond language –but it’s hard to talk about 😉 It’s a little like trying to be conscious of your own consciousness. To do anything meaningful you have to leave language in the dust the with self-consciousness and ego.

October 4, 2013 at 3:47 pm

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/robertson-if-you-tithe-you-wont-have-health-or-financial-problems

suzy you may be right. I deal with truth instead of Truth as I consider myself agnostic. So I have no problem admitting I deal with reality instead of Reality. We can measure and address truth and reality. I’ll still be taking that blue pill though. My plan is to do the best with what we have on this blue planet and deal with the other realities, realms of existence, dimensions, etc. when appropriate (ie when I’m dead and in Hell? or wherever? or in the ground becoming food for worms?). I can only work with what we as a society know and that we can pass to each other through language. I am proud of my meager existence because that’s who I am. I try to remain humble and do what I can. What I learn through this existence and understanding through language is the only reality where I can to decipher right and wrong. And I’m not willing to do or advocate for something that I feel is dreadfully wrong in our reality for the sake of understanding or partaking in a larger Reality. I am happy being small, meager, humble, one of many. Because that who I am, that’s who, in the end we all are.

(btw, we are also at the same time each an amazing individual, an universe on our own in many ways. It’s complicated.)

On a related note. Pat Roberton’s Reality vs your Reality vs my reality. I’m sure we are on the same page on this one and I’m not comparing Pat Robertson to you. My point is there are a bunch of different Truths and Realities out there. In this clip Pat tells a caller that with tithing, along with other stuff as well God you should not have to worry about health related expenses when you are on a limited budget.

I bring this up because I think we would agree this is absurd, cruel and selfish of Pat Robertson to say, and I kinda just wanted to share it.

HUUFC – undocumented immigrants.

Mitch. You are right. That sentence was unfair to my own beliefs. A great deal of the day-to-day work of science is boring in my experience, but that may be a function of my poor decisions in the field or my limited understanding, etc. I think if you are in the field you love, like I imagine EO Wilson was or Richard Feynman and you have an understanding of the scientific frontiers and can address them then I’m pretty sure most days at work would be amazing.

It was an imperfect thought that I wrote trying to empathize with the non-geeks out there. Of course you are right, and I’m glad you called my out on it.

But I have to disagree with the stupid or lazy sentence too. My opinion is that we all could appreciate science for what it is. We are failing as teachers and as a society. Some of that is intentional by monkey wrenchers like Pat Robertson who wrongly feel that science is a threat to religion.

Other than that one sentence, I really agree with what you wrote. I especially like the CCCP example and the mention of numeracy and our insignificance. I think both of those are hard to wrap our collective minds around. Evidence? How long it took Western civilization to understand we were not the center of the Universe.

Finally, back to sbb: I am happy and proud for you and your understanding of the ocean – truly, respectfully. However, a glass of water is a beautiful thing and truly remarkable in it’s own right. If I could understand that glass, I’d die happy. So even though we speak passed each other, I think we are both OK with that.

So sbb, I’ll meet you when our realms cross. Is that in the political realm? Maybe. Should make for some continued interesting conversations.

October 4, 2013 at 4:14 pm

Joe Blow

Forest Queen says: “No wonder people are losing their rights. It’s deserving of an idiotic society that can’t self-govern.”

Their losing their rights because they are totally illegitimate entities. They never had any “rights” to start with. You have to be able to self-govern yourself first and that takes legitimacy. Such reality totally eludes these nutjobs and idiots.

October 4, 2013 at 7:51 pm

suzy blah blah

I am proud of my meager existence because that’s who I am. I try to remain humble and do what I can …I am happy being small, meager, humble, one of many

-slave-speak..

October 5, 2013 at 6:11 am

Mitch

“But I have to disagree with the stupid or lazy sentence too. My opinion is that we all could appreciate science for what it is. We are failing as teachers and as a society.”

DJ,

We have already failed as a democracy and as a society, if you define success the way I do. The results of that failure couldn’t be more in our face. from the melting icecaps to the mentallly ill persons stuck wandering the streets of Eureka.

I used to believe everyone could understand science — I no longer do. Yes, everyone except the extremely disabled is born with the necessary equipment. Unfortunately, when a society prioritizes wealth, power, fashion, celebrity, “faith,” looks, sports prowess, and clarity of thought in roughly that order, the equipment gets pretty rusty society-wide.

It’s pretty important to the powers that be that the inherently dangerous public believes in special punishment and reward after death, when the guarantee is expired. That will always be at war with science, whose answer to questions of punishment and reward after death is a collective shrug of the shoulders, and a suggestion that if it looks like you’re being screwed, you’re probably being screwed. It’s all in literature, philosophy, and history books — the only thing new is that (thanks to science, damn the irony) we’ve learned how to destroy our home in a blink of time.

October 5, 2013 at 7:20 am

October 5, 2013 at 7:54 am

Great post Mitch as always. Thank you! I can’t tell you how important your voice is, at least to me.

I don’t remember how old you are Mitch, I think I’m remembering a little older than me? I was born in ’67 and grew of in the Bay Area (with a stint in North Africa). Growing up in the 70’s and in the Bay Area is essential to who I am. If you are older, you remember a time also when the classes were not as different as they are today and we had a strong middle class. I think that is an experience that is critical to pass on to those who are younger than us.

I have two brothers 5 and 15 years younger than me. Reagan and the post-Reagan years (read Gordon Ghecko, Yuppies, the early Michael J. Fox, materialism) were formative to them – although we all share pretty similar politics, I think they, their generation and those younger missed out on a post WW II understanding of the US which is I think is critical to our understanding of who we are as Americans.

We are not a Cadillac/Lexus society. In our hearts we are a Ford society.(ie we really don’t require the bells and whistles we are just vulnerable to Madison Avenue) Like you’ve so eloquently said, we’ve been sold a bill of goods and for 30 to 35 years have just let go of the steering wheel and allowed our plutocrats to drive.

Having lived in the 70’s, I have a vision of what we can be (again). The seventies were by no means idyllic, but they were much more equitable with a bunch of jobs that could support a family with one income. Of course there was always the Rockefellers and Koch’s, and Arkleys, but the rest of us used to share a life experience and we used to vote our interests. Then the Rockefellers, Koch’s and Arkley’s discovered they could sell a dream to just enough people to rip apart the fabric of our society

The result is the two America’s that Edwards was speaking about. (it’s the 99%, 1%) You may be right, you may even probably be right about the failure. This is where MY capital letter Faith comes in. I have Faith we can turn it around. If for no other reason that it does no good to not give it one’s best effort while we are here. It’s that blue marble,”our home”, phenomena. We have to get everyone on board, somehow, someway. I think our best shot is through democracy. It’s inefficient, it has a good chance for failure if past is prolog, but it’s also our only shot – imho.

suzy. I had forgotten about this particular conversation. We’ve had this before. I realized that there IS a cruel streak in your Reality and it’s on display again. Forget about me, I do not take offense as this is part-and-parcel of being in the comment zone – just think about how much you are diminishing the actual slaves we’ve had in our own county by using “slave-speak”. I think we also had this ‘inappropriate use of slave’ conversation when I just got in too. IMHO, demonstrates a big hole in your understanding of history and/or use of language. And again, thanks but no thanks. I am happy not having JW’s wealth AND I’m happy understanding only a glass of water. In both cases my life is just fine. I’m also happy in a sincere and non-patronizing way for both you and JW as you both have seemed to achieve what is important to you too. I still think our differences should allow for interesting conversations and I look forward to them.

my literal bumper sticker motto “live simply so all may simply live”. I believe in it and try to live by it. Don’t always succeed, but I have always found that life’s greatest rewards are all pretty simple so I do not feel this is at all a sacrifice.

Erasmus

Mitch is such an obviously intelligent person that he deserves a reprimand for his naïve scientism — his belief that our understanding of our place in the universe is best furthered by adherence to the modern scientific method and by downplaying the contributions of culture as exemplified by religion, art, and philosophy. No comment of mine will dislodge his faith. He has expressed his admiration for Richard Dawkins’ ‘The God Delusion,’ a book I found tediously monomaniacal in its straw-man attacks on religion and which I would rate far below a book that reaches a similar conclusion but which evinces a deeper comprehension of what religious thought has attempted to achieve: Walter Kaufmann’s ‘The Faith of a Heretic.’ If Mitch continues to prefer a shrug of his shoulders to a humble openness to the patrimony of tradition — if he refuses to acknowledge that science can deal with means but that religion and philosophy are concerned with ends — he will remain locked into a stultifying world-view that will provide only one certain benefit: the feeling that he is superior (intellectually and morally) to the dupes of organized religion. That is small reward. Better to pay heed to what scientists like Erwin Schrodinger have written: “the acceptance of a really existing material world ,as the explanation of the fact that we all find in the end that we are empirically in the same environment, is mystical and metaphysical” (‘My View of the World,’ p. 94). I urge a reading of the entire 110-page book. ————————–By the way, DJon: medieval man thought he was the center of the universe because his feeling of self-worth was far lower than ours — the “center” was distant from God and was therefore close to Hell. As Lovejoy writes in ‘The Great Chain of Being’ (p. 102) “the geocentric cosmography served rather for man’s humiliation than for his exaltation … Copernicanism was opposed partly on the ground that it assigned too dignified and lofty a position to his dwelling-place.”

October 5, 2013 at 9:05 am

Mitch

DJ,

I’m a decade older than you.

Jimmy Carter seemed to be a very decent man. We replaced him with GE’s spokesmodel, largely because sand disabled some helicopters and the Sabbath gasbags didn’t think Carter looked or sounded appropriately presidential. (Sure, there was a terrible combination of inflation and no-growth during his term, but anyone who thinks a President controls that over periods of a few years is just silly.)

The rest is history.

JW thinks I blame everything on George W Bush. Dubya was just proof of the old chestnut about history repeating itself as farce — Reagan was the front man for the folks who killed the US, while Bush was just proof that they are contemptuous enough of us that they realize they can elect practically anyone, even a draft dodger in a flight suit.

October 5, 2013 at 9:22 am

Just Watchin

Such bitterness Mitch. Let it go. With nine figures of net worth, I would think you could buy a little happiness. ( yea dJ…..Mitch’s money makes mine look like small change)

October 5, 2013 at 10:53 am

HUUFC

Sabbath gasbags? Liberals are sure nasty. At least Jimmy Carter knows he isn’t the worst president in US history anymore. (although his mental illness may prevent that) Before there are any other suggestions, the worst is our current occupant of the White House, Barack Hussein Obama, the community organizer, the voting “present” Senator. The most destructive man in the United States.

October 5, 2013 at 11:41 am

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2013/10/1/reporting-governmentshutdowndemocracy.html

All the talking points in one comment HUUFC. I’m impressed. Rush would be proud. (xcpt I haven’t heard the mental illness one. That’s rich, AND ironic.)

Since you added the Hussein, that leaves me a great opening to link to this great story on Al Jazeera.

But the political media’s aversion to doing anything that might be seen as taking sides — combined with its obsession with process — led them to actively obscure the truth in their coverage of the votes. If you did not already know what this was all about, reading the news would not help you understand.

October 5, 2013 at 12:35 pm

Mitch

“Sabbath gasbags” is Calvin Trillin’s term for the folks who make the rounds of the Sunday morning talk shows. I think it’s perfect.

October 5, 2013 at 4:20 pm

suzy blah blah

-Erasmus, in the west in recent centuries values have been inverted and the secular movement is replacing religion as the dominant belief/faith system. The typical modern person has confused the sacred heart with the “sacred product.”

“The democratic movement is the heir to Christianity.” Nietzsche

djon says, In our hearts we are a Ford society

A self-destructive belief as far as i’m concerned. But i’m sure in djon’s case the masochism is unconscious as it is with the typical Christian. His ford vision is a product of the kind of mentality that so many have been “voluntarily” conditioned into submitting to. Chasing after illusions they call reality, enamored with ideals of equality,

I respect you djon and regard your position, but i don’t respect the stereotype you seek to fulfill.

October 6, 2013 at 6:39 am

Mitch

Erasmus,

You speak of straw man attacks, then assert that I exhibit “naive scientism” and believe “our understanding of our place in the universe is best furthered by adherence to the modern scientific method and by downplaying the contributions of culture as exemplified by religion, art, and philosophy.”

Yet this is what I said to DJ up-thread:

“You’re exactly right that science doesn’t pretend to answer all questions, or even any of the most important ones. For people who have healthy curiosity, numeracy, and an honest sense of their size versus that of the universe, though, it does allow a deeper understanding of the way the world moves.”

As I said, I don’t believe science has the answer to any of the most important questions. Science versus “art and philosophy” is a false choice — I’ll leave religion aside for the moment. All are valuable and they are completely compatible with one another. To understand “how” is not to understand “why,” but it’s an honest response to curiosity, and it can in the best circumstances move us at least in the direction of more reasonable “why” questioning.

Religion is a different case — religion in my experience is a classic case of bait and switch. Its defenders generally offer non-literal interpretations of its texts and show their own deep understanding of the important teaching their choice of religion has to offer by way of mythological stories. Yet in the actual world as played out in history, religion is a mechanism of control, and most adherents think of it as a set of instructions from the ruler of the universe, as issued by those who have her ear.

As one example, I find the idea that the Pope is God’s representative on Earth to be repellent. That’s not to single out Catholicism, it’s to point out the untruthfulness of those who think religion is not about control. Either you do believe the Pope is God’s representative on Earth, or you do not. If you believe you have identified God’s representative on Earth, you have surrendered your personal responsibility to decide what you should do or how you should vote — it would be far more honorable to submit to what the Pope says in all things. Or, to choose a similar example, if God’s personal rep the Ayatollah says go out and commit mass murder, who am I to think for myself as opposed to submit to God’s will? What would be more arrogant than to argue with God’s rep?

And yet, when it comes to matters that can be put to the test, God’s supposed representative knows no more about material things than the scientists of his day. That’s because the papacy is nothing but a fraud, as is everyone who believes they receive special instructions from a particular omniscient and omnipotent being. Nothing but self-deception and fraud, emerging from our desire to imagine outside support for our own inner beliefs.

Many good people support “religion,” but the thing they support is completely different than “religion.” Words are always a problem.

October 6, 2013 at 7:05 am

Erasmus

It ought to go without saying that I oppose bureaucratic religion and unquestioning submission to a book or to a leader as much as you do. But “outside support for our own inner beliefs” can be found anywhere — even in science. (The Nazis weren’t the first nor the last to devise a version of science to fit their preconceptions.) And what is the point of bringing up our “size versus that of the universe”? Are human affairs less important because the universe is expanding and because its dimensions are vastly greater than medieval man thought they were? Are fat people more important than skinny people? So what? I prefer Emily Dickinson’s outlook on the supposed “vastness” of the exterior world: “The Brain — is wider than the Sky –/For — put them side by side –/The one the other will contain/With ease — and You — beside.” Words that Schrodinger might have echoed. (Read his book.) The material world is not as solid as once thought, and consciousness is increasingly being seen as something other than an epiphenomenon. (Owen Barfield’s classic ‘Saving the Appearances’ is more relevant than ever). That is why religion, in all its various manifestations, in all its repugnant and soothing shapes, has been making a comeback over the last few decades. Karen Armstrong’s ‘The Case for God’ is the best book I know of for anyone who is puzzled or dismayed by this trend. (And what she means by ‘God’ is not what Pat Robertson or an ayatollah would mean by the term. Even Mitch would, I’d wager, find her ‘God’ plausible.)

October 6, 2013 at 7:50 am

http://www.mondomedia.com/videos/about-authority/

I’m agnostic which to me means I’m staying out of the debate between Mitch and Erasmus (for the most part). I actually have a deep affinity for both posts if that is possible. For example I am extremely opposed to the Catholic region’s position on contraception, but I am learning to trust, admire and love Pope Francis. I am not Catholic, but I can imagine being Catholic (or Jewish, or Muslim, or Buddhist, or Pagan (etc)). I have been in the European cathedrals (and have absorbed the awe they inspire) and I understand and empathize with someone who has a Catholic worldview (Stephen Colbert is a perfect example – his love for his Religion is infectious)

One thing though; I will not budge on this. Religion has no place in science class. The teacher can spend a lesson describing the overlap of Religion and science if he or she chooses but ‘intelligent design’* is bogus and needs to be called out as such. To bring religion into science class is a disservice to both. (my opinion is the same regarding religion and politics – but I allow for more wriggle room there as for many people religion is fundamental to the policies for which they advocate).

Erasmus, you seem thoughtful and wise on this topic (as does Mitch). I’ll put Walter Kaufmann’s ‘The Faith of a Heretic.’ at the top of my reading list. I am fascinated by the interface of religion and science and appreciate listening to different and thoughtful voices.

*http://www.discovery.org/

Here is a video I may or may not have posted already. It’s may approach what Mitch is speaking about. It’s easy for an agnostic to see the truth in this. I enjoy it, but I’m not going to pretend I know this to be true. It may be, it may not, who knows. (does it matter? let’s work together toward achievable policies)

Re-reading your post, one more thing, Erasmus, I appreciate you point about geo-centrism. However, I think it still exists in an analog in human centrism. I think both Islam and Christianity (the two religions for which I have an above average understanding) have a certain divinity of humans over other species. I do think this hierarchy has value, but it’s also problematic for our planet’s future. We are actually going to be discussing this fairly directly in the GPU GP debate in Guiding Principle #7. We will not be approaching protecting “natural resources” for their own sake. They will still at best be “ecosystem services” which are still human-centric. I think this view precludes an important perspective that threatens our future.

October 6, 2013 at 11:50 am

Erasmus

DJon: I agree with you about keeping religion out of science classes. Unfortunately, writers like Richard Dawkins have interjected religious issues into scientific discussions and have attempted to identify their worldview with a form of dogmatic atheism. It is not surprising that religionists are fighting back and that “intelligent design” has become a Trojan Horse in their arsenal. (By the way, Darwin himself said that he was “inclined to look at everything as resulting from designed laws, with the details, whether good or bad, left to the workings of what we may called chance” (in a letter to Asa Gray in 1860)). ——————As for a “human-centric” view of the natural world, I see no alternative. What we need is a perspective wider and deeper than what we currently have, and the needs of other species must be taken into account — for the long-term interests of ourselves. Anything beyond that should be regarded with suspicion: let us not forget “the key pin of the National Socialist ecologist platform: in it, man is no longer positioned as master and possessor of a nature which he humanizes and cultivates, but as responsible for an original wild state endowed with intrinsic rights, the richness and diversity of which it is his responsibility to preserve forever” (Luc Ferry, ‘The New Ecological Order,’ U. of Chicago Press, p. 107). Just because the Nazis were (in theory, anyway) forerunners of “deep ecology” does not automatically discredit the latter, of course. But it ought to give us pause.

October 6, 2013 at 11:57 am

Mitch

Erasmus,

You write, “It ought to go without saying that I oppose bureaucratic religion and unquestioning submission to a book or to a leader as much as you do.”

I’d hope, then, that you’d clarify what you are defending when you defend “religion.” For I love to think our lives have meaning, just as I’d imagine you do. I don’t object in the slightest when people point out that we are something greater than a random combination of molecules, and that our lives have something called “value.” I don’t know of any atheists who actually disbelieve that — if we did honestly believe that, we’d just commit suicide.

But once you’ve accepted a monotheistic religion which provides a group of people who are interpreters of God’s will, your choice is obedience (or disobedience at risk of eternal damnation).

You ask, “what is the point of bringing up our ‘size versus that of the universe.'”

It’s a perceptive question. My own feelings of awe often revolve around scale as a suggestion of significance. The feeling I get amongst the redwoods is an example, as is the feeling we (I trust) get when staring at the star-filled night sky.

The history of religion actually strikes me as a history of humanity’s attempts to magnify its importance by placing itself at the center of things. Imagine the arrogance, in a universe like ours, of positing a personal god who listens to our every need, from our desire to spare Aunt Louisa her cancer to our heartfelt hope that The Warriors will win by a touchdown. It’s loathsome.

I grant you completely what you admire in “religion.” But what you admire is not what most people mean when they use the word.

Pick a bunch of people attending worship at any mainstream Christian denomination and ask them if Jesus is God’s son, and if that matters to them. OF COURSE IT DOES. You only get to heaven if you’re on Jesus’ team. And it’s all made up. If you don’t defend that, please say so. Otherwise, please stop pretending you mean something wonderful when you talk about “religion.”

October 6, 2013 at 12:11 pm

Mitch

As DJ has offered a video, I’ll relist one of my all-time favorites:

And, as DJ well knows, admiring and loving the lovely man Pope Francis is a very, very long way from declaring him God’s representative on Earth. If you accept that the College of Cardinals is the body that finds God’s representative on Earth, you have to accept that Francis’ predecessor was also God’s representative on Earth, along with the medieval clowns who bullied Galileo, and you might not have equally kindly thoughts towards them. Eppur si muove.

October 6, 2013 at 1:06 pm

Joe Blow

Mitch, you didn’t learn anything from the experience of our conversation when I directed you to Deepak Chopra’s book “God A Story of Revelation,” did you? SAD.

October 6, 2013 at 2:11 pm

suzy blah blah

what is the point of bringing up our ‘size versus that of the universe.

-their is no point because the human psyche is not confined to space and time.

October 6, 2013 at 2:22 pm

Erasmus

A fair request, Mitch. Here’s a partial list of what I admire in religion: the Bible-inspired passion of MLK, Jr.; the good-natured humanity of Thomas Merton; the dedication to the welfare of the least among us shown by Dorothy Day; the sacred music of Bach and Mozart, the religious art of Raphael and Chartres Cathedral; the humility of a genius like Pascal; the insight into the human soul as revealed in the Hebrew Bible, especially in the book of Job (where no white-washing of God takes place); the poetry of T.S. Eliot, John Donne, William Blake, and George Herbert; the writings of Simone Weil. —————You refer to humanity’s “arrogance” in placing itself at the center of the universe. On the contrary: as Lovejoy shows in his ‘Great Chain of Being,’ the opposite occurred: assuming that religion is a human creation, the belief that we occupy the center of everything was a demotion from whatever perch we sat on before the Fall. This passage from John Wilkins is representative of a pre-Enlightenment mind-set: he refers to “the vileness of our earth, because it consists of a more sordid and base matter than any other part of the world; and therefore must be situated in the centre, which is the worst place, and at the greatest distance from those purer incorruptible bodies, the heavens” (p, 102). In your mind, “center” connotes superiority; our forebears saw things differently. Is anything more arrogant than humanism (I ask, in all humility)?

October 6, 2013 at 3:34 pm

Joe Blow

My question therefore, Erasmus, is why hasn’t any of the admirable sentiments you mention above raised the conscious level of Americans or for that matter the World? Mankind today, despite religion’s best efforts, is no better off then it was 2000+ years ago when Jesus walked on this earth.

October 6, 2013 at 3:45 pm

Mitch

Erasmus,

First, you say “a fair request.” Then, you knowingly evade.

Instead of answering with what you find admirable about religion, you answer with the acts of creation of many fine examples of humanity, inspired by awe, mystery, and love, none of which are synonymous with religion as actually practiced by most. We’ll never truly know what their beliefs were, will we? Those whose beliefs were sufficiently non-conformist simply did not have their works preserved; others who may have believed something very different than the Church fathers may well have been “whitewashed” by history into true believers. Let’s remember that in the West, literacy was long reserved for those who bowed before the Church.

I’ll repeat my point with more questions — when Dorothy Day or Simone Weil spoke of god, was she referring to Jesus’ dad and a specific child of god-and-a-virgin who washed away our sins, or was she referring to mystery? Why pretend to know? What other socially acceptable paths were available to those who wished to exercise fierce compassion? How many popes, Chief Rabbis, Ayatollahs or Archbishops would have accepted Dorothy Day or MLK, Jr, or, for that matter, a nun spraying graffiti over nuclear weapons warehouses? How many wars have been fueled by religious devotion on the part of the faithful, and how many deaths caused? Can you balance those deaths against the works of a Bach?

As for the book of Job, what better way to say “shut up and do as I say.”

As for the center being vile, I’ll just confess my ignorance and my suspicion that you’ve cherry picked a quote or two. Medieval abyrinths hardly led to the vile.

October 6, 2013 at 4:07 pm

suzy blah blah

-consciousness is the center. The physical universe the quarterback. you are the deep receiver. Death is the goal line. Anyone want another beer?

October 6, 2013 at 4:11 pm

Erasmus

I’m sorry if you found me evasive; I have little competence to comment on “religion as practiced by most people.” — J.B. doesn’t see moral progress in the last 2000 years. I see evidence of some improvement (slavery is far less prevalent, women are much less oppressed, governments are less tyrannical), but there is room for much more, obviously. Whether secular humanism can provide the moral energy to fuel our progress is an open question. —- I did pick a cherry from Lovejoy’s great book, and I omitted to mention that he points out that simply casting the human race in a cosmic drama that determines the eternal fate of our souls is a way of underlining our importance as a species. But an arrogant species would not condemn such a sizable portion of its population to hell. Our place in the physical universe is irrelevant from a moral point of view, as is our size, our color, etc. “Religion” — for thousands of years — is a doorway out of the physical prison, and no science will replace it. Hoping for a world without religion makes as much sense as wishing that politics would disappear. Every thinking person subscribes to a belief concerning our place in the cosmos. Those who adhere to a particular faith are more explicit in their beliefs; the typical well-educated person is guided by implicit beliefs, by unacknowledged tenets inherited from our ancestors.

October 6, 2013 at 5:24 pm

Mitch

Erasmus,

You say “I have little competence to comment on religion as practiced by most people.'”

This might help, at least as regards Americans’ beliefs. Report #2 includes a question about belief in a “personal god.” http://religions.pewforum.org/reports#

I find I’m not dissimilar from other Jews and other Buddhists, who show about the same percentage of belief in a “personal god” as those characterized as “secular unaffiliated.” Can I also mention that I’m fascinated by the idea that 6% of atheists believe in a personal god, along with 14% of agnostics? Will an atheist god smite her enemies with more smite-power than a Mormon god?

October 6, 2013 at 5:34 pm

Mitch

Erasmus,

“Hoping for a world without religion makes as much sense as wishing that politics would disappear.”

Perhaps. I’d settle for a world in which Rabbi Hillel’s “torah in a sentence” was universally honored, and religion was not such a useful hiding place for scoundrels.

October 6, 2013 at 7:14 pm

suzy blah blah

-you have to be in the right endzone. I received an answer to a prayer once on an actual sheet of paper. It was written in gold font with illustrations and graphs. And that’s the fax.

October 7, 2013 at 4:42 am

October 7, 2013 at 6:15 am

“Is anything more arrogant than humanism?” I get that and am concerned about it. However it is the flip side of the question that concerns me. Again, I am no expert AND I will blur Islam and Christianity as religions which is I’m guessing anathema to you Erasmus. I think it’s Islam and I think the word is submit to God. I don’t know if that his how Christianity phrases it. I also submit myself to the universe. I don’t pretend that human’s are the top. I would think that most humanists or agnostics or atheists or whatever feel the same way. But isn’t the danger, if we are in Allah’s or God’s universe we forget about our role as stewards? I think most Christians at least use those words, but even so, isn’t there an edge to the stewardship that is lost if we in the end believe, “you know, God has his own plan” or whatever. Please, Erasmus I am not at all being disrespectful. In fact the opposite.

I feel incredibly inarticulate and,well, dumb trying to contribute to this conversation at the level you both are. Awesome and thanks to both of you for the comments.

Mitch

DJ,

You would probably love Wendell Berry’s writing; I’d imagine Erasmus does. Berry is very big on stewardship and it is from reading him that I learned the wonderful and important word “usufruct” — the right to enjoy something one doesn’t own, so long as one doesn’t damage it. As Berry views the Earth and all that is on it as God’s property, he thinks we have only the right of usufruct towards it.

I don’t know that Erasmus and I really disagree all that much; Erasmus is more comfortable than I in crediting religion with what is best about it, and I am more comfortable than he (or she, I suppose) in pointing out its abuses in practice, which seem to me to be plentiful. It seems clear to me that Erasmus’ “religion” is simply not the same as the “religion” behind certainty, intolerance, exclusivity, hierarchy and warfare. It’s the latter that seems to me to be far more active in the world.

October 7, 2013 at 10:39 am

bolithio

Mankind today, despite religion’s best efforts, is no better off then it was 2000+ years ago when Jesus walked on this earth.

Thats crap. Id way rather be in this time period then 2000 years ago when I was very unlikely to live past 35, and if I did, no matter where in the world I was born was most likely subject to intense brutality or a host for disease.

Life for the common man pretty much sucked when “jesus” was walking around. Science has obviously led to a much more comfortable life for most – however religious dogmas of the past were very civic in nature and should not be overlooked in our cultural development. Like kosher which prevented disease. And the thinking behind these rules and laws often relied on the left side of the brain. So really, science and religion should be merged. There is no threat to God(s) because of the application, use, and quest for science. That fear is what your spiritual quest should hopefully be curing – and allowing us to use both sides of our brain effectively.

Gods place in the universe and our origins though billions of years of energy and mutation are forever compatible. Its people who are not (due to our competitive evolution? Or do we blame God? Does it matter?)

October 7, 2013 at 7:29 pm

suzy blah blah

-here’s Bill O’reilly debunking Bill Meyer’s bullshit and laughing out loud at his childish understanding of God and the Bible. Hilarious:

October 7, 2013 at 8:10 pm