Kym has done an excellent job of pulling together what information is to be had. I’ve been content to leave the coverage in her excellent hands. I don’t know any of the people involved, but it’s all very sad.
And please spare us the posts about how marijuana growers are bring this onto themselves. It’s really not productive.
Sohum Parlance II 
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March 21, 2011 at 7:10 am
Anonymous
It may not be productive but alas it is true. You can’t live that way and escape it Eric.
March 21, 2011 at 7:42 am
WTF
“And please spare us the posts about how marijuana growers are bring this onto themselves. It’s really not productive”
Then at what point do you talk about it? What would make you say that? So much for the Wine Counrty feel of Weed? As hard and unthinkable as this all is, it should not be a way of life or death. At what point do you face the good, bad and ugly truth about an underground, outlaw and blackmarket way of life?
March 21, 2011 at 7:50 am
Eric Kirk
Then at what point do you talk about it?
How about at the point where it doesn’t hurt the families of the victims even more just so that a few anonymous posters can pursue their narrow but obsessive agendas? This isn’t about you and your agenda WTF, and you really don’t know what happened anyway.
March 21, 2011 at 8:41 am
Plain Jane
Maybe they think the only people who get robbed and murdered are pot growers. It seems like denial to me.
March 21, 2011 at 9:04 am
Anonymous
Not productive?! But accurate, true, a fact of life in the underground ecomomy of marijuana growers.
It is also sad that people were killed and injured.
March 21, 2011 at 9:37 am
Eric Kirk
The point is, the motive of the killings is only speculation. Mental illness is also a strong possibility.
March 21, 2011 at 9:41 am
Ernie's Place
I know some of the people involved and I feel nothing but compassion for them. We all know that there is an underground economy here, and sadly, most people are involved in some way with it. Many people are not given choices. Good Jobs are not all that plentiful. Let the first person to offer a better job cast the first stone.
March 21, 2011 at 10:43 am
WTF
1. Denial. 2. Anger. 3. Bargaining. 4. Depression. 5. And in your case Eric, least of all, Acceptance?
What narrow but obsessive agenda? You think the rest of the world view is different outside the box? You think weed is viewed the same as in your backyard? That it’s only grown for medical use? Check out what the rest of the world gets to think about the Emerald Triangle.
http://stonerfilms.info/the-emerald-triangle-the-three-biggest-marijuana-producing-counties-in-the-usa/
March 21, 2011 at 12:13 pm
Eric Kirk
You are one callous person WTF. Can;t you put aside your agenda at least long enough to let the bodies cool off?
March 21, 2011 at 12:24 pm
Plain Jane
sooo…… whether or not you believe the sheriff or the neighbors, if they hadn’t gone to check, the killer might have gotten away and killed more people. In areas like that with law enforcement hours away, its good to have neighbors who care. I hope they recovery fully from their horrific injuries, physically and mentally.
March 21, 2011 at 1:13 pm
Eric Kirk
They should receive some recognition. It’s truly amazing that they’re alive. Fortunately, the guy didn’t really know how to kill.
March 21, 2011 at 1:32 pm
Ed Denson
Surely the story here is really about the bravery, and luck, of the Gunds. It is an incredible tale and I can but hope that in similar circumstances I would be able to act with anything like such courage and endurance. To respond to such a situation so that one could be compared with James Gund in this case would be extraordinary, and it is a tribute to our way of life here that such people are attracted to come and make their lives among us.
March 21, 2011 at 1:46 pm
Not A Native
Eric, you going to respond to Sims’ OP-Ed piece? I assume that when writing it, he had this in mind. Its been over a week, the bodies are cold.
You reap what you sow. Just who do people think are the purchasers of the large quantities of illegal pot grown here? Clue: they aren’t Mother Teresa. They’re lifestyle criminals for whom violence is an essential part of survival. And yeah, they’re often mentally ‘off’, because being ‘off’ makes criminal life seem like its a good thing.
Those who sow contraband pot, reap a world of hurt. If those pot growers had earlier been prosecuted, gotten probation and been truly remorseful, they’d be alive today. And their neighbors wouldn’t have received horrific and likely disabling injuries.
If Cody Baker had been given more stringent punishment and rehab for his earlier DUI’s, three more Ferndale teens would have graduated High School.
The sheriff deputy who recently played with fireworks reaped some tragedy too. Anyone express their compassion and sorrow for him lately? Oh yeah, he’s facing punitive action, and thats a good thing. It really is,
March 21, 2011 at 2:06 pm
Eric Kirk
NAN – this situation appears to have been something completely out of the pale. They were friends.
As for the Simms article, if it’s true then we’re headed for a rough storm locally. There’s not much we can do about it in the short run. I started typing something up, but while it’s all speculation I just don’t have anything profound to say. If I can think of something, I’ll let you know.
March 21, 2011 at 2:12 pm
Ernie's Place
NAN, Eric… Can we get a clue? Where can we find Sims earth shaking editorial? Link???
March 21, 2011 at 2:18 pm
BillBo
Native, you are a MAJOR league a@#hole.
Did you know that California allows medical marijuana? Did anyone say whether this was an illegal grow op or a legal medical farm? You can’t prosecute someone operating within the legal parameters of the law. Nor does operation of a medical farm mean you deserve to have your throat cut.
But a@#holes like yourself like to look around details like that and just condemn people because you don’t fully understand how things work these days.
Grow up, or else you may just reap what you sow, too…jackass.
March 21, 2011 at 3:37 pm
tra
Fortunately, the guy didn’t really know how to kill.
I find that statement a little bit odd. Obviously the attacker did “know how to kill” well enough to kill Sky and Chris. He nearly killed a third, Mrs. Gund (slashed her throat right through to the windpipe), and almost certainly he would have finished her off if Mr. Gund hadn’t been able to wrestle the knife away from him.
And that may only have been possible because Mr. Gund happened to be wearing thick rubberized gloves, and was able to grab the knife by the blade to disarm his attacker.
It seems to me that it was a very close call for the Gunds, with a combination of luck and Mr. Gund’s heroic efforts narrowly preventing them from suffering the same fate as the earlier victims.
All in all, a truly horrific incident.
March 21, 2011 at 3:38 pm
Not A Native
Eric, I was thinking here about Sims admonition about the meaning of the local culture’s venal acceptance of regular local homicides as being a part of ‘normal’ life.
You’ve mixed your irrelevant metaphors here: Should it have been “Something out of the blue”. I assume murder is always “beyond the pale”(except among drug traffickers, where its an accepted practice).
Is “out of the blue” a legal justification/defense? As unpredictable, are these murders an Act of God? Or maybe the Devil? The victim in Kettenpom was quoted to say he looked into the eyes of the killer and saw “He had no soul”. Too bad for you the accused won’t be needing a lawyer. I think you’re the right guy to make “The Devil made me do it” defense.
Friends you say? Khadaffi also has friends. Guess that means he’s a reliable person. Wasn’t the guy that killed the girl and threw her body off the bridge in Del Norte also friends. Wasn’t Shin, friends with his killers? Gee, aren’t most all wholesale drug deals among ‘friends’?
Maybe all the ‘friends’ in this case were capable of ‘coming out of the blue” and it just happened this guy was first. After all, people who choose criminal lives aren’t known for having great mental stability.
March 21, 2011 at 4:37 pm
Eric Kirk
The point is NAN – you don’t know what led to these murders. Because it happened in these hills you assume it was about marijuana. But you don’t know. Neither do I.
March 21, 2011 at 4:44 pm
Ernie's Place
Forget NAN and Eric, does anyone else have a link to Sim’s Editorial? Pretty please?
March 21, 2011 at 5:11 pm
tra
Murder is never acceptable, no matter what the motive is.
I don’t think anyone is denying that prohibition and the black market can lead to violence, including murders. That was certainly the case with alcohol prohibition — at least until the voters wised up and realized that the cure was much worse than the disease.
In the case of this Kettenpom incident up in Trinity County, we don’t yet know whether this was a prohibition-related murder, or whether the motive may have been something completely unrelated.
Frankly I don’t think anyone will be surprised if it turns out that some kind of blackmarket dispute played a role in the killings. But there’s no need to rush to judgement — that part of the story is still being investigated.
Sadly, but predictably, some folks just can’t wait to blame the victims, who of course are not available to defend themselves — not that fairness to a dead murder victim matters to those who are already blaming them for “bringing it on themselves.”
March 21, 2011 at 5:12 pm
Not A Native
Guess you didn’t get Sims’ point Eric, or just don’t like it.
The report is that pot found in the car of the murderer was packaged for resale identicaly to pot found in the house of the folks murdered. Either the murderer bought or stole the pot he had with him. Or perhaps it was his property, as a partner. In any event, the public evidence is that pot for profit was an aspect of their relationship. I think it likely that pot was the basis of their relationship. You allege the victims and murderer were ‘friends’. Its reasonable to believe that monetary gain is the only purpose to be ‘friends’ with someone who ‘has no soul’. And around here, relationships based on pot trafficking are regularly associated with violence.
But you’re absolutely correct Eric. There’s doubt in the public record. We don’t know, FOR SURE that these murders/assaults were an outcome of pot trafficking and the murderer was just as likely to murder/assault any person he encountered in public or his other ‘friends’. Just like we don’t know FOR SURE where Obama was born, who directed the 9/11 bombings, who killed JFK, what objects were recovered in Roswell, and what is the effects of those chem trails.
March 21, 2011 at 5:22 pm
Not A Native
BTW, sorry Ernie.
At the present time it seems Sims’ writing are considered sufficiently valuable that they aren’t being put online. You should buy a copy of the McK Press or Arcata Eye to both receive Sims’ pearls and show financial support for his contribution to local journalism.
March 21, 2011 at 6:35 pm
tra
Anybody know what the murder rate is for rural residents in the “Emerald Triangle” of Humboldt, Trinity and Mendecino? And how those rates compare to the murder rates among rural residents in other counties around California?
March 21, 2011 at 7:08 pm
Anonymous
let’s put a few more names of people murdered because of pot..
it has been happening here for decades.
March 21, 2011 at 7:36 pm
Bolithio
I visit Zenia/Kettenpom several times a year. It is a very pleasant community with lots good people. What a terrible story. =(
My thoughts go out to all involved.
March 21, 2011 at 9:41 pm
Ed Denson
NAN – “packaged for sale” is a term the police use for “put into ziploc bags” often. Often it means 1 pound lots, but they use the term to describe a group of bags of pot each of which has a different weight, even when the weights are not typical sale units Almost all processed marijuana thus is “packaged for sale” in police reports.
And, to jump from “sales” to “profits” is not justified, even if the pot is, in fact, for sale. Profits require sales prices that result in more income than costs, including the costs of the time, effort, skill, and risk that the grower puts into the growing. Medical sales are prohibited by law from creating profit, and there are thousands of such legal sales daily in California.
Finally, what factual basis have you for stating that around here relationships based on marijuana “trafficking” are regularly associated with violence? I deal with marijuana in the courts all over Northern California, and I have the opposite impression. How about a list of known violence associated with such relationships in the past year (or whatever period you choose) and an estimate of how many relationships existed in that period without violence? I did such a study in the pre-215 era, in preparation for Federal Court testimony, and found that in Mendocino and Humboldt counties together there were, then, 1 or 2 serious violent crimes associated with marijuana, every 18 months. These were mainly murders or attempted murders – not bar fights or lesser violent crimes. Obviously this study is only of historic value today since the situation has changed so much. I conducted the study by calling the Sheriff’s offices and getting lists of such crimes. You could too, if you want to see if the facts support your statement.
March 21, 2011 at 10:08 pm
tra
Ed,
Those number would be interesting, but I don’t think they would quite get to the heart of the matter — whether, as a result of the cannabis industry, we’re experiencing more murders, per capita, than similar rural areas that don’t have a large presence of the cannabis industry.
In other words, does a rural population made up of loggers, ranchers, non-cannabis farmers, and other occupations actually have a lower (or for that matter, higher) murder rate than a rural population with a lot of cannabis growers?
It would also be interesting to see a comparison between a cannabis grower’s risk of being a victim of a violent crime or a murder, compared to other occupations, including such things as taxi driver and convenience store clerks.
Unfortunately, I suspect the numbers for cannabis growers would be hard to come by, since I assume most people aren’t telling census takers that they grow cannabis for a living. But if those numbers were available, I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that, on average, cannabis growers are at less risk of violence than many other sorts of workers. But are they at more or less risk than the average Californian? I wonder.
March 22, 2011 at 6:34 am
Ed Denson
tra – I agree with you about the interest of the project and foresee practical difficulties in finding the non-cannabis growing rural population of loggers &c anywhere in California. Perhaps before and after comparisons in some of the Sierra counties over the last 10 years, with consideration of the increase or decrease in the state wide rate. Now, if we could just find an HSU student in need of a thesis project with a good background in cannabis and statistics…..
March 22, 2011 at 10:09 am
WTF
tra-
I don’t know if this would help, its from Oregon. It might provide some insight and information you are seeking. There is not a lot of information about the subject online, more urban than rural. There are other articles online from different parts of the state, pacific northwest and elsewhere. They all speak to the same issues.
http://www.neighborhoodnotes.com/news/2010/01/growing_medical_marijuana_bringing_crime_to_a_neighborhood_near_you/
March 22, 2011 at 12:03 pm
Not A Native
Ed, more later but since the authorities weren’t investigating these folks for illicit pot trading, they hadn’t developed evidence necessary to prove any charges. I didn’t bring up the fact that $17,000 was found in the residence, I’m sure you’ll say there could be many lawful reasons for them to have that amount of cash. At this point its reasonable to believe that these folks would be alive today(but perhaps without a handy $17,000 lying around) if they weren’t trafficking pot.
BTW the statistics of crimes associated with illegal pot growing aren’t reliable because most of the crimes go unreported. Just as the economic effects associated with pot growing in HumCo can’t be well quantified, so too is the associated violence and criminality. I personally know of scores of pot crimes, some violent(brandishing guns, battery) that weren’t reported by the victims because they were trafficking. As you well know, the Shin murder, for one, was covered up by the perps, only family intervention uncovered it and the cause of the conflict. The recent violence on Kneeland was also reported only because the victims were unable to hide. Of course, I’m sure you’d say there’s lots of doubt that Jimmy Hoffa was murdered too.
March 22, 2011 at 12:46 pm
Ed Denson
No opinion on Jimmy Hoffa, but nice to know someone else is old enough to remember him.
I’m surprised to hear that $17k was found at the victim’s home. If the motive for murder was robbery, that is surprising. If the event was a marijuana deal gone bad and the perp brought the cash you’d think he would take it with him. I understand he had some cash in the car? So, for me right now the $17k makes the whole thing more of a puzzle.
It does not necessarily suggest anything illegal, however. Aside from the fact that cash is available in ways that do not involve marijuana sales, it is also true that in many cases marijuana sales are legal in California (if both parties are medical users with physican recommendations and associated to collectively cultivate – not a difficult standard to meet).
I wonder to what extent all crimes are underreported and if it would not be possible to factor than in to a rigorous analysis? It is a shame that law enforcement does not universally take the position that pot crimes by victims of violence discovered during the investigation of the violence will not be investigated. I represented a victim where the criminals missed $2000. When the police came, they took it and the victim never got it back. He lost his house thereafter, and clearly would have been better off not reporting the armed burglary. So, I agree somewhat about underreporting – but anecdote is not a good substitute. Gotta go, radiation is calling me.
March 22, 2011 at 10:05 pm
Not A Native
Well at least you recognize this was a drug realted crime. Its not clear that the $17,000 was in plain sight. It may have come from an earlier transaction. And like I wrote, of course you’re going to suggest that having a large amount of cash and pot packaged in salable quantities is purely coincidental. You’re playing defense lawyer and creating doubt. But they never got to the point of being charged. If they had been prosecuted, they might still be alive. So the evidence we know didn’t come about as the result of a solid investigation into their drug trafficking. Its reasonable to expect loose ends concerning what the victims were doing with their pot. Though I’d expect a truly legal(not a dispensary front) buyer of pot would pay with a check or bank transfer, not cash.
March 23, 2011 at 10:10 am
Ed Denson
NAN – I recognise no such thing, I have no idea if “this was a drug related crime.” I am interested in the question of such crimes and violence associated with them, of course, and have been discussing ways of determining if marijuana growing creates them in unusual numbers. As to doubt, I’m not creating it. It is there. We lack facts in this case and making them up does not clear away doubt. It is a sad affair however you look at it, but the lesson to be learned is not clear.
March 23, 2011 at 1:39 pm
friend
Where are you getting the $17k cash information from. I have not seen that anywhere?
March 23, 2011 at 2:39 pm
Not A Native
Funny, this posting is now on Craigslist. Life goes on, there’s nothing more to see here. Maybe the tenants will ‘be smarter’ and have more higher powered armaments and stricter security discipline. But if they also become part of a story like the last one, where will the responsibility lie?
Rent 40 Acres for $4000 Monthly- Huge Garden Area- Always Succesful (Kettenpom Area)
——————————————————————————–
Date: 2011-03-21, 11:04PM PDT
This is a very unique secluded area. Very comfortable, safe and laid back . There is unlimited water from multiple sources, including a year round creek and spring with a small pond. There is 8000 gallons of water storage You will have a private road and gate. There are four small outbuildings. This is the easiest way to get on a property. Plenty of room to go huge. Serious inquiries only.
March 23, 2011 at 6:54 pm
Jeff
A statistic is not a human being. It does not bleed, die or feel pain. What has happened in Kettenpom: the death of three, the injury of two others is a tragedy. Can we do better than this as ‘human’ beings?
March 24, 2011 at 1:52 pm
Not A Native
Dunno Jeff. But I do know that biologically we’re individually ‘human animals’ not ‘human saints’. And I also know we’ve come to be here through processes of selection involving both cooperation and competition. Finally, biologists have observed that intraspecies competiton is especially fierce and aggressive because the contenders are vying for exactly the same resources.
So ‘doing better as human beings’ must involve competitive behavior by individuals. The devil is in the details of deciding the mix of cooperation and competition. I thought that’s why we’ve constructed laws and social structures. When people act outside those constructions, unexpected events(sometimes appreciated, sometimes regretted) usually occur.
March 24, 2011 at 6:50 pm
Jeff
Yeah,
Mark Twain said to call an animal ‘almost human’ was an insult to the animal. I have the suspicion that this incident sheds nothing positive on the human conditon with the possible exceptions of the Gunds. It seems so senseless and meaningless.
March 25, 2011 at 1:16 pm
Not A Native
Well, if you’re seeking to find sense and meaning in life, I’d suggest newspapers and other media aren’t a good place to find it. Especially from individual news items.
Typically, searches for sense and meaning are considered ‘spiritual’ because those things are subjective, not the subject of objective scientific inquiry. Though in general, studies of philosophy analytically address those topics. You might benefit from taking up a study of philosophy.
Of course, there are a multitude of sources and venues that offer specific spiritual guidance. Its very popular, particularly in rural areas. Just take your pick or choose one you may have become familiar with in childhood.
March 25, 2011 at 6:40 pm
Jeff
We distill life to its essence, or try to. Binary logic is an elementary step: Cooperation vs.Competition. I bought that till M. raised a point I dismissed flippantly. She talked about sublime moments that opened her eyes. The Trouble with binary logic: It ignores the law of the excluded middle. So NAN elucidate as to what happened in Kettenpom-are u just BSing or do you really have an insight? Inquiring minds want to know.
March 25, 2011 at 8:22 pm
Jeff
Actually ” ignores’ was a poor choice of a word: I should have used ‘assumes’ as in binary logic ‘amuses” the law of the excluded middle is a ‘quote’!
March 26, 2011 at 3:54 pm
Not A Native
Jeff, thanks for your erratum., otherwise your post seemed hostile.
You ‘distill life to its essence’ in your way, I obtain meaning in life in my way. Frankly I wouldn’t use the term ‘we’ as if to imply everyone does or tries that consciously. I don’t think everybody has the perception that life is composed of essences. Thats an idea often associated as being originally from Plato, with adherents and detractors. I’m not competant to debate it.
I’ve explained that in my way of seeing life, this incident isn’t a window into any particular insight. With the few facts supplied we could empathize more or less with the individuals involved, imagine ourselves in their position, and ponder why they acted as they did and what we may have done. That would be drama. As stated at the close of the old TV show, The Naked City: “There are eight million stories in the Naked City, this has been one of them.”
I think of cooperation and competition as baselines that pretty much straddle the range of behavior with regard to acts by and between individuals. Science doesn’t postulate any ultimate meaning, its my opinion that whether ultimate meaning exists and what it might be, is a spiritual pursuit.
May 1, 2011 at 5:20 pm
Jeff
Supposedly the alleged killer was a knitter. This is an unusual skill for most males-Where did he pick it up? Think about it. It’s possible this crime was not about ganja at all but the killer was a steppenwolf: He appeared human but was hiding a dark soul. If you really loved someone would you hurt them in such a way?
May 20, 2011 at 7:02 am
stopthemadness
the killer was loved well by his close associates, except with a few notable exceptions: those of us who he decide were his enemies. then he treated us as “dead to him” i looked in his eyes once and also saw what the gunds described – he looked like he “had no soul”
yes, his method of killing was premeditated – he tazed both of the gunds before attempting to slash their throats. likely he tazed the dead victims too before killing them. he intended to get away with cold blooded murder, and when discovered by the gunds, intended to kill both witnesses, to leave no one to finger him later. we are lucky he did not escape, after killing 4 people, not 2. i wonder – has he killed others? are their unsolved, cold cases out there, people murdered similarly, that he got away with.
reliable friend told me the killer was dealing out east, was stiffed after making a deliver (not paid), then went to kettenpom to get more pot/money, probably to pay someone else he owed. he probably was in deep trouble not being paid out east, maybe involved with gang activity in sf or la. likely his life was on the line and that’s why he decided to kill sky and kristina.
and that friends, is why you don’t deal drugs. black market economy has lethal consequences. sure, legal pot transactions happen all the time in cali and oregon. but surely this went beyond the “legal” traffic, into the dark underworld.