Whom real neo-Nazis support &#8211; in their own&nbsp;words

“pro-Hamas”

OMG you nailed it Mitch in real time!! From the other thread…

In Hitchen’s view any blow back from the left was a sort of left wing anti-imperial thinking which was for Hitchens morally corrupt and ultimately complicit in the crimes of these barbaric people

June 3, 2024 at 7:01 am

https://x.com/realpeteyb123/status/1797112676159738043

Bolithio, as I’m sure you know, it is not a coincidence that we are communicating with people who quote Christopher Hitchens in is Islamophobic years when he voted for George Bush in 2004 and those who unironically post a tweet from someone associated with Commentary Magazine. These good people do not represent even mainstream liberalism, at least with respect to Israel and at least how they frame their arguments.

And it seems they are more interested in defending Israel and current U.S. Policy rather than winning in November. Which is fine, I agree with that, if you believe in something pursue it elections or not. Just strange that in this case it’s a right wing position.

A majority of Americans disapprove of Israel’s military actions in Gaza, in a pronounced shift from November, according to a (March) new poll released by Gallup on Wednesday

(from March). https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/27/world/middleeast/military-action-americans-gaza.html

June 3, 2024 at 7:30 am

Mitch

I continue to hold the following values dear: women’s rights, LGBTQ rights, opposition to governmental enforcement of religious beliefs, opposition to authoritarianism, opposition to acting with the purpose of murdering, raping, and kidnapping innocent bystanders.

I continue to believe that a safe Israel is a reasonable goal, and that the future existence of the Jewish people is dependent on the safety of Israel.

I continue to believe that Islamic fundamentalism is a danger to my values.

I continue to believe that Christian fundamentalism is a danger to my values.

I continue to believe that Jewish fundamentalism is a danger to my values.

I continue to believe that trump fundamentalism is a danger to my values.

I continue to believe that declaring a site “sacred” late in the process of permitting wind turbines on private property, and having a government then fold to a religious assertion unsupported by shareable evidence, is a danger to my values.

June 3, 2024 at 7:37 am

Mitch

Further, I recognize that there have been many periods in American history when large groups of people have become supportive of leaders and groups which do not share my values. This includes the support for Communist dictatorships by many in the post-war left, and the MAGA movement.

Pretty words and walls of political and/or academic jargon do not lead me to question my values.

June 3, 2024 at 7:39 am

Mitch

Nor does the racist designation of certain religion’s assertion of areas as being “sacred” lead me to question my values.

Religious beliefs are fine. Operating a government on the basis of things not based on shareable evidence is not.

June 3, 2024 at 7:41 am

Mitch

Correcting 7:39. Nor does the racist decision to accept the word of certain “approved” religions, while rejecting the word of “unapproved” religions lead me to question my values. One of the founding principles of my country was the separation of church and state, and I interpret that as meaning that in order to make a political claim, you must present evidence other than god says so, regardless of what name you use for your god or gods.

June 3, 2024 at 8:20 am

Eric Kirk

Just Trollin – I didn’t say that all of MAGA are Nazis. I said that many Nazis are supporting Trump and none are supporting Biden and I provided direct evidence – their own words.

For instance, Petey B – whom I linked in the OP – supports Trump. Here is one of his pro-Trump posts.

Why do you think that is?

June 3, 2024 at 10:06 am

John

“many Nazis” ?

How many ? Two dozen, three dozen. For that you smear the 80 + Million who are supporting Trump ?

June 3, 2024 at 10:14 am

Mitch

trump’s supporters smear themselves. How many Americans supported McCarthy? How many Americans supported Father Coughlin?

June 3, 2024 at 10:48 am

Just Trollin

Don’t be too rough on him John. He’s pretty proud that he nailed Petey B…….

June 3, 2024 at 10:56 am

Just Trollin

And this was the guy that founded “Unite the Right”…..

https://gazette.com/opinion/editorial-a-racists-endorsement-of-biden-comes-as-no-surprise/article_4058411e-e6f8-11ea-a8d2-633192d81b82.html

June 3, 2024 at 12:00 pm

Eric Kirk

80 million John? I really doubt it. And if it was true a week ago, it’s not true today.

But the thread gets larger by the moment. Still not one of them supporting Biden.

found this on the thread.

Candace Owens in part of her explanation as to how Margaret Sanger’s alliance with Jewish elite scientists in generating a backlash that helped the Nazis consolidate power.

“Candace Owens is digging into The Weimer Republic and what lead to the rise of the National Socialist (aka Nazis). Owens found out that Jewish elites and scientists played a major role in movements for birth control, abortion access, sexual evolution and normalization of LGBT.”

So there you have it – blame the Nazi takeover on intellectualism, Jews, LGBTQ, and feminism.

You can’t make this stuff up.

https://x.com/Klaus_Arminius/status/1761412814919311454

June 3, 2024 at 12:01 pm

Eric Kirk

So at least one guy is okay with a black woman, as long as she doesn’t like Jews and gays.

June 3, 2024 at 5:25 pm

Those seem like laudable values Mitch but there is one problem. Our ability to enforce our chosen values ends at our border.

How do we stop China’s genocide? Should we have tried to change Afghanistan with hindsight?

We are spending money to have Israel occupy Gaza and continue ethnic cleansing and further expand its borders both in Gaza & in the West Bank. Those are the only values that matter wrt Israel/Palestine, our foreign policy for the region and if we prioritize defending Israel or human rights for all to include disproportionate or asymmetric warefare. You and I both know where the U.S. stands.

June 3, 2024 at 5:40 pm

https://x.com/lexaphus/status/1797730352636809399

It’s cool to see specifically somebody who is simultaneously:

proudly Jewish, and
treated by mainstream Jewish orgs as not really “one of us” (a direct quote from a recent article in a Jewish publication)

…be elected president of Mexico. Congrats Claudia Sheinbaum!

June 3, 2024 at 5:46 pm

Anonymous

As I’ve expressed before, Hamas started this war, and they must be exterminated once and for all. Talk of rebuilding Gaza should take place only if they rename the finished product “New Israel”.

June 4, 2024 at 5:33 am

Anonymous

Obvious troll is obvious. ↑↑↑

June 4, 2024 at 5:38 am

Hamas started…lol…

IDF let Hamas in with the priorhand knowledge of the attack, just oozing cyprine to sacrifice 1200 for the sake of a greater genocide…🤷‍♂️

June 4, 2024 at 5:45 am

Mitch

Once again, a new Anonymous, clearly not PA.

June 4, 2024 at 5:59 am

Mitch

Our ability to enforce our chosen values ends at our border.

That’s not true. As a trivial example, if the United States seized the accessible assets of any corporation doing business with Russia or doing business with any nation (read: China) or entity continuing to trade with Russia, the war against Ukraine would be over in about an hour.

If the United States refused to import goods from any nation which did not provide labor protections equal to or greater than those legislated to apply in the United States, the world would become enormously more just in about an hour.

The idea behind using trade to connect the world was to raise up the rest of the world. The reality is it raised up the top one in a thousand by knocking down all the work that had been done in an attempt to make the United States more fair, by moving production to places where we pretend our values cannot be enforced.

Wealth rules, not values.

June 4, 2024 at 6:52 am

Mitch

As for Gaza becoming “New Israel,” when the United States won WW2 in the Pacific theatre, the Japanese nation worshipped the Japanese emperor as a god. That changed. It may have changed because of the demonstrated destruction that belief brought upon the nation.

Gazans are now faced with a similar situation. They can continue to follow those who tell them they must devote their lives to the killing of others, or they can reevaluate their belief system. The removal of Hamas from power is only a potential starting point that might allow those in Gaza to lead decent lives.

It will not be easy, because Israel is not and can never be in the position that the United States and its allies were in at the conclusion of WW2. If Israel tried to impose terms similar to those imposed on Japan by the allies after the allied victory, the nullities of the world would destroy Israel.

June 4, 2024 at 6:59 am

Mitch

Just as the central tenet of Christianity is not “don’t bake cakes for gay marriages,” the central tenet of Islam is not “kill all Jews.”

When religious institution leaders are faced with removal or the loss of their base, they often discover that their religion is more flexible than they’d thought.

In the best of all possible worlds, they’d start preaching the universal, unlimited love that they claim to preach but rarely do.

Every religion ends up with its idiotic elements (like traitorous trees, like “rape my daughters instead of the angels,” like here’s your land title). It’s only sheer hypocrisy that allows religious leaders to push political agendas based on the crap that gets baked in, while always being able to hide behind the non-superstition-based, simple morality of love your neighbor as yourself.

June 4, 2024 at 7:08 am

By “enforce” I mean by legal and military action. Commerce, well that would be a neoliberal solution, I think we could all agree with that and I’m all for regulating trade towards our internal political interests.

June 4, 2024 at 7:12 am

Mitch

Once again, a change to the legal rules around commerce would have immediate and certain (to me) impact. The problem is both we and China are controlled by the greediest. Every change any democratic government implements is easily subverted. Because both we and our production centers are under the control of the greediest. Until a democracy is able to bring greed under control and reduce its power, same old same old. This really isn’t particularly hard to understand.

June 4, 2024 at 7:12 am

Mitch

For most people.

June 4, 2024 at 7:22 am

Just Trollin

I agree with Mitch, although when it comes to the convoluted musings of Jon, that’s an easy choice.

June 7, 2024 at 10:01 pm

Anonymous

“The pro-Hamas Left” is a figment of Mitch’s imagination. How about the anti- genocide Left to be more accurate? And how many more Palestinian children need to die or have their limbs amputated before you and Mitch say, “Enough!”

June 8, 2024 at 6:20 am

Mitch

Who you gonna believe, Anonymous or your lying eyes?

June 8, 2024 at 6:25 am

Mitch

June 8, 2024 at 6:49 am

https://www.newsweek.com/israel-has-created-new-standard-urban-warfare-why-will-no-one-admit-it-opinion-1883286

It’s not in Mitch’s imagination anon, he’s repeating the lies of AIPAC, DMFI (I’m making an assumption there), and most importantly nearly the entire right wing media machine. And the most insidious thing is when the substitute pro-Hamas for pro-Palestinian every time, repetitively hundreds or thousands of times a day. It has an impact and when it comes down to it, even tho Mitch will disagree with nearly every else they will say, on this the right will get a pass.

Clearly there are pro-violence against civilians death cult pro-Hamas people across the world including in pro Palestinian protests, but those people, those that would advocate terrorism against civilians is infinitesimally small compared to those outraged at Israel, both before & after 10/07.

But that is part of the trick, no not one unique to Israelis or Jews, but to political causes that include Zionism. In order to get public opinion on your side for people who might not be paying close attention, conflate, call, or define your political opponents as extremists, or better yet mass-murdering antisemitic extremists. It’s much more effective than, say, #BastionOfNeoliberalism. If THEY are the TRUE extremists, then that gives you a lot of room to navigate, including the mass-murder of 35,000 people defined as defense.

June 8, 2024 at 7:26 am

Mitch

You cannot elect an eliminationist government in land your neighbor unilaterally returned to you, put hundreds of miles of military tunnels under your civilian population, hide your fighters and their food and military supplies under those tunnels, launch thousands of rockets against your neighbor over decades, and then, one day, send your fighters out to slaughter a 1,000 of your neighbors at random, take hundreds more hostage, and not expect your neighbor to respond in order to completely destroy your military capability, doing its best to minimize the enormous civilian casualties you’ve lined up as necessary.

This would not be hard for students to see, but the people protecting themselves are Jews. Yes, in my mind, it’s no mystery at all, and it has nothing to do with AIPAC.

From the Hamas Charter, at https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

“The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.” (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).

Article Eight:

Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.

June 8, 2024 at 7:29 am

Mitch

By John Spencer

chair of urban warfare studies at the Modern War Institute (MWI) at West Point; served for 25 years as an infantry soldier and two tours in Iraq

June 8, 2024 at 7:49 am

Mitch

For once, the BBC quotes Gazans other than the Hamas leadership. It seems I’m not alone in thinking Hamas behavior is “abnormal.”

Gazans criticise Hamas after release of hostages

Rushdi Abualouf

BBC News Gaza correspondent

“Gazans seized an opportunity following the release of hostages in Nuseirat to direct rare criticism at Hamas. Some vented anger and frustration, though others rushed to defend the group.

“Hassan Omar, 37, lamented the unnecessary loss of lives in Israeli strikes. He told me: “For each Israeli hostage they could have freed 80 Palestinian prisoners and without any bloodshed – [that] is a million times better than losing 100 dead.

“”My message to Hamas is stopping the loss is part of the gain, we should get rid of those who control us from Qatar hotels.”

“Muhammad Diab wrote from Gaza: “Hiding hostages near a vital area and a commercial market crowded with people is abnormal behaviour and confirmation that these people do not value our blood and lives. They will continue this nonsense until the last child dies.”

“However, Hamas supporters rushed to defend the movement, arguing that the release of hostages was not a significant achievement in the overall conflict with Israel. Uday al-Rantisi stated: “It was a small victory in the midst of larger defeats.””

June 8, 2024 at 8:00 am

Mitch

Gosh, I came back and re-read this, and I’m just floored that the BBC calls this a “release of hostages.” It was a military rescue, not a release. Unbelievable. All too believable.

June 8, 2024 at 8:09 am

Mitch

And, probably my last comment for the morning, I am both pro-Palestinian and pro-Israeli.

That is, I would like to see Palestinians and Israelis living side by side without killing one another. I would like to see settlers who have committed violence against West Bank Palestinians be punished, I’d like to see all West Bank settlements dismantled and removed as obstacles to peace.

I’d be fine with a Palestinian state if it would not put the safety of Israelis at risk. I don’t know any longer if that is achievable, and I lay the blame on Islamic fundamentalists and militants who have created a nation of people who think killing Jews is just.

June 8, 2024 at 8:17 am

bolithio

If this is the new standard, god save us.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/jun/08/israel-destroying-schools-scholasticide

In the first 100 days of this war, all 12 universities in Gaza were bombed and wholly or partly destroyed. Alongside this destruction, numerous libraries, archives, publishing houses, cultural centres, activity halls, museums, bookstores, cemeteries, monuments and archival materials were turned to rubble, ruins and dust. The attack on Palestinian education and knowledge systems and destruction and looting of rare artefacts, books, manuscripts and cultural and archival materials isn’t new: it has been documented since the 1948 Nakba.

Recently, Israeli soldiers set ablaze the remaining parts of the al-Aqsa University’s library in Gaza City and photographed themselves sitting in front of the burning books. Similarly, an Israeli soldier recently filmed himself walking through the ruins of al-Azhar University, mocking scholasticide and rejoicing in the occupation’s destruction of the university. “We’re starting a new semester,” he said, adding: “It’ll start never.”

June 8, 2024 at 8:20 am

bolithio

The new standard of modern urban warfare. Precise and Just.

June 8, 2024 at 8:23 am

bolithio

At least one bad guy was killed during this bombing. This is is the new standard, the most morale bombing since Dresden. 20,000 lbs of American liberal democracy.

June 8, 2024 at 8:29 am

Mitch

The nullity has seen pictures of bombed buildings. Ignore the guy from West Point, with decades of infantry experience, who studies urban warfare.

June 8, 2024 at 8:33 am

Those 20,000 lbs of death were delivered by Trump Twin Bibi Netanyahu, the right-wing extremist still running Israel. It does not surprise me to read you twisting the facts inside out, but in case anyone less informed actually read this, that is Bull Shit.

June 8, 2024 at 8:38 am

bolithio

The other nullity looks at these pictures and still believes the guy from west point. The guy from west point looks at the infantry rolling into the ruble after mass bombing, filming themselves laughing as they light fires and control demolitions of libraries and schools and declares a new standard of modern urban warfare. Brilliant.

June 8, 2024 at 8:43 am

bolithio

Correction:

Israel has dropped more than 70,000 tons of bombs on the Gaza Strip since last October, far surpassing the of Dresden, Hamburg, and London combined during World War II.

A new standard in urban warfare no doubt.

June 8, 2024 at 8:47 am

Mitch

There are two ways to argue. One is to hear what someone says and point out what you believe to be in error, so they can respond. And so on. The other way is what is seen here.

June 8, 2024 at 8:57 am

Argue? We shout past one another.

June 8, 2024 at 9:00 am

bolithio

“Those 20,000 lbs of death were delivered by Trump Twin Bibi Netanyahu, the right-wing extremist still running Israel. It does not surprise me to read you twisting the facts inside out, but in case anyone less informed actually read this, that is Bull Shit.”

Turtle, you are aware of who makes those bombs, right? Hint, its the reason we dont have health care.

June 8, 2024 at 9:26 am

https://www.jpost.com/international/article-803703

bolithio, I am old, and began studying war in the middle east (at Humboldt) when Nixon was president. You are correct, and this is still on Bibi.

June 8, 2024 at 10:02 am

bolithio

Turtle, yes, its Bibi and his coalition who are pulling the trigger. I would argue that America is complicit in the same way the Sackler’s are in the opium crisis, or Chevron in the climate crisis.

June 8, 2024 at 10:18 am

Anonymous

“The pro-Hamas Left” is a figment of Mitch’s imagination.

Pretending something doesn’t exist doesn’t keep if from existing.

Meanwhile, back in the real world:

Michigan congresswoman Rashida Tlaib spoke on Saturday at a Detroit Pro-Palestinian conference that advocated on behalf of terrorism, honored terrorists, and featured a member of a terrorist organization as a panelist….

…Palestinian Youth Movement Houston’s Mohammed Nabulsi, who served as conference MC and led the attendees in chants of, “There is only one solution, intifada revolution,” said at the opening ceremony on Friday, “We also want to take a moment to honor our brave and noble resistance that defends our people from beneath the ground.”

Are we really supposed to pretend that by “brave and noble resistance that defends our people from beneath the ground,” he didn’t mean Hamas in their tunnels?

And, no this wasn’t some random guy ranting on Twitter, he was the Master of Ceremonies whipping up the crowd at the People’s Conference for Palestine in Detroit last month.

June 8, 2024 at 10:49 am

https://x.com/BarakRavid/status/1799534011380879488

Actually, we do have health care, most of us anyway. And yes, our country’s industrial complex makes a whole lot of weapons of war. But those who are without health care did not get that way because of the weapons industry. Quality of care is a whole different subject. So is the availability of weapons of war to the general public.

Your complicity analogies are fair enough. But it ain’t Biden. Bibi is a Trump fanboi and is betting it all on Trump becoming president again. Like Trump, he is boxed into a corner and faces the end of his power.

June 8, 2024 at 2:30 pm

Mitch

Four kidnappers rescued. Unfortunately, as is generally the case, Hamas his them in a civilian neighborhood and also fired from behind civilians. Eight months and tens of thousands dead, and Gazans haven’t thrown off Hamas and returned the people who Hamas kidnapped. A person might begin to suspect Gazans support Hamas’ activities.

June 8, 2024 at 2:31 pm

Mitch

kidnapped people, not kidnappers, of course.

June 8, 2024 at 8:17 pm

Anonymous

“The pro-Hamas Left” is a figment of Mitch’s imagination.

Sadly, nope.

“Protesters near the White House express support for Hezbollah and Hamas’ military wing the al-Qassam brigades who are designated as terrorist organizations by the U.S. government.”

June 9, 2024 at 8:05 am

Climate Change being put onto consumers, families

likely should only be put onto “INDUSTRY”…🤷‍♂️ ya know, the billionaires and multi mega millionaires and fraud investment securities that are super-majority industry scam artists and swindlers… looking out only for themselves as THE ONLY profiteers…

Mental Retards will vote, High IQer’s will not vote…

June 10, 2024 at 5:04 am

Four hostages rescued, and I’m glad, in lieu of stating how many Palestinians died in the rescue operation we got a report that Hamas hid them in a civilian neighborhood.

Can anyone come up with a similar disparity between lives saved & lives lost within a community we value? One that is not othered?

June 10, 2024 at 6:11 am

Mitch

A person might begin to suspect Gazans support Hamas activities. Refuse to hide the kidnappers. Problem solved.

June 10, 2024 at 7:05 am

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2020-03-06/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/42-knees-in-one-day-israeli-snipers-open-up-about-shooting-gaza-protesters/0000017f-f2da-d497-a1ff-f2dab2520000

In the liberal world order as we know it, could you imagine the problem being solved that way in the Western world? In, say, Ireland for example?

Clearly Palestinians and Muslims are seen differently. You can see and you know the people in our society who do see them differently so I know you know what I’m talking about Mitch. And perhaps you don’t like to admit that you are within their circle on the Venn diagram.

Someday, and this day will come, when there is a free Palestine or Israel/Palestine if you like, we in the Western world, the one that distinguishes itself from countries like Russia or Iran or China, we will value the life of a Muslim or a brown person as much as we do a Judeo Christian person or a brown person.

June 10, 2024 at 7:38 am

Mitch

After fifty years of occupation, I don’t know how the typical Israeli sees Palestinians. I’m sure the occupied territories have eroded Israel’s soul.

But from everything I know from every Jewish person I grew up with, Jews do not hate Palestinians, they hate murderers.

The reason for the high death count is there is no other place on earth governed by an organization that seeks the eradication of its neighbor, using religion to justify the murder of those on its neighbor’s land, and with the murderers surrounded by either a supportive population or one which fears the murderers more than it has feared their victims. And, Israel is the only place on earth with a Jewish majority, it is the majority state of 0.2% of the world’s population, a tiny fragment of humanity composed substantially of survivors of the intentional murder of about a third of that population, and also made up of others who never before had an opportunity to live as anything but second or third class citizens of countries in which they were hated.

I believe Israel has tried to the extent humanly possible, and I understand that’s a tiny-minority opinion among the people I’m surrounded by. Am Yisrael Chai.

June 10, 2024 at 7:43 am

Mitch

Also, this “brown person” bullshit is wearying. Much of the Israeli population was forced out of the surrounding Arab countries upon Israel declaring independence.

June 10, 2024 at 8:57 am

bolithio

One might suspect that increased support for Hamas among Gazans is related to Israel murdering 30K people, devastating their homes, and starving them. If your Palestinian, the conflict didn’t start on 10/7. Over 100 Palestinians where killed in 2023 prior to 10/7. Also in 2022 and 2021.

In Gaza, widespread peaceful demonstrations occurred in 2018 and 2019.

The Great March of Return (GMR) saw thousands of Gazans protesting near the fence between the artificial borders of the Gaza Strip and Israel. The demonstrations occurred weekly, every Friday, between March 30, 2018, and late 2019, demanding to return home—or more precisely, to march home to nearby villages depopulated of their Indigenous people during the Nakba of 1948 and claimed by Jewish settlers. The protest was also aimed against the ongoing land, air, and sea blockade of the Gaza Strip imposed by Israel. Peaceful and unarmed for the most part, Palestinians in Gaza challenged Israeli soldiers and snipers posted 700–1,000 meters away from them, fully protected and armed.

Israeli forces responded with excessive, lethal force, including rubber bullets and live ammunition, mostly fired by snipers. As a result, 214 Palestinians, including 46 children, were killed, and over 36,100, including nearly 8,800 children, were injured. One in five of those injured (over 8,000) were hit by live ammunition. Over 7,000 of the live ammunition injuries (88%) were limb injuries, followed by injuries to the abdomen and pelvis. Amputations were required in 156 of the limb injuries (126 lower limbs and 30 upper limbs). At least 94 of the 156 cases involved secondary amputations due to subsequent bone infections

And much like the IDF of today, bragging and laughing about the suffering of Palestinians is nothing new.

What would a legitimate response to the killing and maiming of people during these protests be? Whats should these Gazans actually do? Another protest? File a complaint and wait for an “instigation”? Or did this fuel the rage that ultimately exploded on 10/7? Is it such a stretch to consider that the possibility that killing, maiming and depriving people of dignity is unsustainable? Its very convenient to sum it all up into racial hatred, and play on the western guilt over what what happened in Europe. But this is disingenuous and totally ignores the reality that Gazans live with under occupation.

One might suspect that if your Gazan, all you know is violence at the hands of an occupying force. And those hands are largely invisible. Most Gazans have never even seen an Israeli. All they see are drones, auto gun turrets, bombs from above, and sniper fire.

If you suspect that people who live under such trauma might be primed for radicalization, you might start to understand why reactionary violence is inevitable under a brutal, inhumane occupation and apartheid. This is what Hamas thrives upon. This is how they fill their ranks, with the orphans left after IDF killing sprees. Just as today, Hamas fighters, or any resistance fighters are not having trouble finding new recruits. If anything, their are more people wanting to sign up than they can arm.

It seems fairly clear to me that the “war cabinet” knows this, and once again they see this as an asset. By taking a place in Gaza, they can claim progress. When they promptly withdrawal, instead of keeping these locations secure, they know that fighters will retake those places, and since “eliminating Hamas” is the esoteric goal they have claimed, they can continue the war as long as possible. There goal is not to eliminate Hamas, its make Gaza, once and for all, unlivable.

June 10, 2024 at 9:07 am

Mitch

https://www.newarab.com/news/israeli-snipers-brag-about-deliberately-crippling-gaza-protesters

I can’t read the article in Haaretz, as presumably the nullity also could not, but it may have been copied to the link above, at which I found it included this:

“Itay was a sniper in the ultra-Orthodox Netzah Yehuda Battalion. “I saw a guy who was about to light a Molotov cocktail. In a case like that you don’t do calculations. I got on the radio, described the target and got an ‘authorized’… I shot at the knee and he fell.”

“The snipers told Haaretz the ideal position to hit a Palestinian, which is the “kneecap”. “If you see blood, that’s not a good sign, because you probably hit too high,” Itay said.

“But another sniper interviewed said the kneecap is not a desirable place to hit.

“”The objective is to cause the inciter minimal damage, so he will stop doing what he’s doing. So I, at least, would try to aim at a fattier place, in the muscle region,” he said.

“According to IDF protocol, a minor shouldn’t be considered a major inciter at the protests, the newspaper reported.

“”The goal is not to hit minors, but a Molotov cocktail is a Molotov cocktail, and the bottle doesn’t know whether the person holding it is a man of 20, a teenager of 14 or a kid of 8,” Itay said.”

June 10, 2024 at 9:14 am

Mitch

So, same story. If you don’t want to get shot, don’t visibly threaten an armed soldier with death. If you do, and the soldier shoots you, be sure to get maximum publicity from it, and be sure to leave out the part about where you wanted to kill them.

June 10, 2024 at 9:16 am

Mitch

This is a really great example of the nullity at work. It sells well, I’m sure.

June 10, 2024 at 10:39 am

June 10, 2024 at 10:53 am

because the leading edges of surrounding countries are formerly parts of the larger Israel historically… but nazi jews only want to wage war with the weaker palestinians in the territory of Israel that remains…

Also, this “brown person” bullshit is wearying. Much of the Israeli population was forced out of the surrounding Arab countries upon Israel declaring independence. – MBJ

bolithio

Im a sniper positioned 700 meters away from a impenetrable fence and my life is threatened by a teenager throwing a Molotov cocktail at it.

June 10, 2024 at 11:08 am

Mitch

June 10, 2024 at 11:22 am

Mitch

The nullity explains that Molotov cocktails are nothing to be afraid of, but does not appear to understand that it is humanly possible, especially at a non-violent demonstration, not to prepare to light a Molotov cocktail. See how it works? Don’t prepare to throw a Molotov cocktail and you won’t risk being a martyr.

June 10, 2024 at 11:24 am

Mitch

Here, I’ll try to be more concise. Molotov cocktail does not demonstrate non-violence. MLK Jr never used Molotov cocktails. Gandhi never used Molotov cocktails. When you use a Molotov cocktail, you may get shot at, and you should not use that as an example of being shot while being non-violent.

June 10, 2024 at 11:27 am

Mitch

For anyone who wonders how Israel could be responsible for the death and injury of so many non-violent protesters, now you know. You just have to define non-violence properly.

June 10, 2024 at 11:40 am

bolithio

The other nullity learns that in a two year period of protests:

214 Palestinians, including 46 children, were killed, and over 36,100, including nearly 8,800 children, were injured. One in five of those injured (over 8,000) were hit by live ammunition. Over 7,000 of the live ammunition injuries (88%) were limb injuries, followed by injuries to the abdomen and pelvis. Amputations were required in 156 of the limb injuries (126 lower limbs and 30 upper limbs). At least 94 of the 156 cases involved secondary amputations due to subsequent bone infections

and actually believes all these people where threatening the lives of soldiers positioned 700+ meters away on the other side of a militarized boarder wall. Also believes that all these killings and injuries are justified because some small portion of them threw things at the wall. Also totally ignores the reasons these walled in people are angry and blames them for the conditions imposed on them.

What even worse is when you look into many of those injuries, many of the amputations could have been prevented if not for Israels draconian and arbitrary bureaucratic system they have for Gazans applying for medical treatment. Where they have all the power to allow – or much more commonly – deny permit applications for treatment of easily preventable conditions. This to will also be blamed on these people by the nullity, because 40% of their parents voted for Hamas.

June 10, 2024 at 11:44 am

Mitch

Yeah, not to worry. The population of Humboldt is totally on your side, and not antisemitic at all.

June 10, 2024 at 11:45 am

Mitch

It’s because mean Jews shoot at nonviolent protestors, as everyone’s been taught for fifty years.

June 10, 2024 at 11:47 am

Mitch

June 10, 2024 at 11:56 am

Mitch

June 10, 2024 at 12:02 pm

Mitch

Look! It’s non-violent rockets!

June 10, 2024 at 12:03 pm

Mitch

Seriously, it’s just not worth the bother. Nullity, carry on with your crap. I’m just Has Barry.

June 10, 2024 at 1:25 pm

bolithio

Being critical of Israeli war crimes is not antisemitic. Conflating the actions of Israel will all Jews is literally in the definition of antisemitism.

June 10, 2024 at 3:42 pm

Anonymous

Let’s review:

Hamas terrrorists kidnap innocent people (a war crime), hold them hostage in an area densely populated by civilians in order to use those civilians as human shields (also a war crime). In addition to the actual civilians, there are of course also the fake “civilians” such as the Al Jazeera “journalist” who was holding 3 of the hostages in his home (you guessed it, a war crime).

Israel finds out where 4 of these hostages are being held, launches a rescue operation to free them, and the rescuers come under heavy attack from Hamas fighters dressed as civilians, hiding among the civilians, and as a result, many civilians (and an unknowable number of Hamas-supporting fake “civilians”) are killed in the resulting battle.

Naturally, the Justified Anti-Semite immediately, reflexively and mindlessly blames Israel for the deaths of the civilians. Because of course he does.

Apparently the IDF should be obliged to leave the hostages in captivity, because there’s no way to guarantee that the nonstop, multi-level war-criming of the Hamas terrorists wouldn’t lead to civilian casualties in the course of any rescue attempt.

And of course there’s no chance that immunizing Hamas kidnappers and hostage takers from any chance of being attacked, thanks to their evil, cynical, cowardly strategy of hiding behind and among civilians, might incentivize more behavior of the same kind, both in Gaza and elsewhere. No chance of that at all.

June 10, 2024 at 7:46 pm

Anonymous

Today protesters chanted “Long Live the Intifada” outside an exhibit in New York about the Oct 7th massacre at the Nova music festival where Hamas murdered hundreds, and kidnapped many others.

But sure, tell us again how “there is no such thing as the pro-Hamas left.”

June 11, 2024 at 4:56 am

Resistance, even violent resistance against violent occupation is =/= Hamas. Intifada is one of your red lines PA but because you conflate intifada with supporting 10/07 doesn’t mean the rest of the world does or should. The question remains, how exactly are Palestinians meant to resist? International diplomacy? International laws? Protest? Boycott? Divest? Physical & violent resistance against military targets?

Answer is of course that they are not, they only can surrender to a more powerful military which can inflict greater damage while countries justify the mass slaughter.

June 11, 2024 at 5:21 am

Also, this “brown person” bullshit is wearying. Much of the Israeli population was forced out of the surrounding Arab countries upon Israel declaring independence.

So, it’s not that you don’t see the double standard based on the “otherness” of Palestinians compared to us in the West, but that THEY did it first, so we now are completely justified in doing the same thing.

Well, now that I think about it, to use your justification, what Israel is doing is worse, isn’t it?, b/c Gazans don’t have somewhere to flee to to be safe and they don’t have the money & power behind the U.S. to support them under they are slaughtered in the tens of thousands.

June 11, 2024 at 5:23 am

My guess that part of the reason it is wearying is because there is a part of you, as a marginalized (and good) person yourself, who sees the truth of it.

June 11, 2024 at 5:28 am

https://x.com/AOC/status/1800599178424516934

But what you can do that I can’t is blame all of Israel’s heinous actions over the past 8 months solely on Hamas. That’s how you can sleep at night, being the good person you are, supporting what Israel is doing.

June 11, 2024 at 5:43 am

Anonymous

Again, they were literally chanting “Long live the Intifada!” outside an exhibit in New York about the Oct 7th massacre at the Nova music festival where Hamas murdered hundreds, and kidnapped many others.

You’re welcome to pretend that it’s somehow unreasonable to interpret this as overt support for the 10/7 massacre and Hamas, but that doesn’t even come close to passing the laugh test.

Still, it’s always interesting to see just how far the Justified Anti-Semite is able/willing to twist logic and engage in risible displays of obfuscation in order to deny, excuse or explain away the disgusting behavior of Hamas supporters.

June 11, 2024 at 6:02 am

Mitch

No Jon, it’s not they did it first. It’s that Israelis are as brown as Palestinians.

June 11, 2024 at 9:59 am

Anonymous

The question remains, how exactly are Palestinians meant to resist? International diplomacy? International laws? Protest? Boycott? Divest? Physical & violent resistance against military targets?

Answer is of course that they are not, they only can surrender to a more powerful military which can inflict greater damage while countries justify the mass slaughter.

LOL…You literally just answered your own question with multiple other approaches that Palestinians and their supporters can utilize (and sometimes do), all of which are far preferable to the demonstrably failed, inarguably evil strategy of murder-rape-and-kidnap-as-many-random-Jews-as-possible that these Hamas-supporting lowlifes in New York lent their support to by chanting “long live the Intifada!” outside an exhibition about the Oct 7th Hamas massacre at the Nova festival, where the method of “intifada” was, in fact, murdering, raping and kidnapping random Jews.

June 11, 2024 at 5:21 pm

Anonymous

AOC not on board with Jon’s theory of Justified anti-Semitism.

The callousness, dehumanization, and targeting of Jews on display at last night’s protest outside the Nova Festival exhibit was atrocious antisemitism – plain and simple. Antisemitism has no place in our city nor any broader movement that centers human dignity and liberation.

June 11, 2024 at 5:29 pm

Anonymous

The comments on AOC’s Tweet are really something. Just about evenly split between some version of “you’re not fooling anyone by pretending to be against anti-Semitism all of the sudden” and “Did AIPAC write this post for you, you genocide supporter?”

June 11, 2024 at 5:47 pm

Anonymous

#NOW Protesters unfurl banner that reads “Long Live October 7th” in Union Square NYC

https://x.com/i/lists/967503259777798144

June 11, 2024 at 7:26 pm

June 12, 2024 at 12:07 pm

Neo nazis support both democrats and republicans…

…silly to think that in USA, a nazi party exists or could exist when it is vastly much easier to join democrat and republican parties…

June 12, 2024 at 5:31 am

Mitch

bolithio

Whats the point you are trying to make? The left supports Hamas? Is that your claim? You want to kill “the left” too? Is that it?

Yes, there are reactionary people who have behaved poorly in reaction to this crisis. OK. Now what? What do you want? Whats your point?

How do university protests, making people uncomfortable with slogans and signs, and tweeting online “support Hamas”? I dont get it. Like Hamas is sitting there in a tunnel getting powered up by American student ‘nullity’s’ chanting something on the other side of the planet? WTF is your point?

I for one find a demonstration at a memorial for Hamas victims to be totally stupid and counter productive. Im not arguing to support that action. Obviously such actions feed into the reactionaries who are searching for any all material to post: See! See! OMG, Antisemitism! OK so?

Yet where is your angry post reaction to the Israelis who have been camped out for months now blocking, looting, and destroying what little food is allowed to enter Gaza, while dancing to rave music and celebrating the starvation of innocent civilians?

Whats worse? People reading uncomfortable signs, hearing slogans and getting their feelings hurt in the united states, or millions of people literally starving?

June 12, 2024 at 12:09 pm

bolithio

June 12, 2024 at 12:17 pm

Mitch

June 12, 2024 at 1:50 pm

Mitch

The nullity could, incidentally, find answers to some of his questions if he listened to the Glick show I posted at 12:17. John Spencer of West Point makes it clear that Hamas’ strategy includes maximizing Gazan civilian deaths, that Hamas wins the war if any bit of Hamas survives, and that its approach is to turn the world against Israel in order to survive and thereby become a major power. He also makes it clear that if Hamas does survive, the entire world is in big trouble, because this approach will be used by every terrorist group. In the course of saying this, he more or less points out that the story being told is nothing like the reality of what is happening.

The question is, will the nullity listen to what Spencer says before dismissing it and noting that Gazan children are being harmed, as if those who support Israel approve of that. I know Jon’s too busy to devote the time; he has his own sources to scour.

Although Prof. Spencer is more informed about warfare and the actual events on the ground, the strategy is basically what Argumentative Penguin was saying a half a year ago. I posted that on this blog several times.

June 12, 2024 at 1:52 pm

Mitch

One point Spencer makes is that, based on his understanding of the tunnel network, the entire two million population of Gaza could be protected in the tunnels. But they are for Hamas’ fighting forces. Civilians have a different role for Hamas.

June 12, 2024 at 3:12 pm

Anonymous

Whats the point you are trying to make? The left supports Hamas? Is that your claim?

Someone claimed above that “there’s no such thing as the pro-Hamas left” and said it was just a figment of Mitch’s imagination.

I’m simply pointing out how demonstrably false that is.

I have no desire to “kill the left,” nor does pointing out when people who call themselves “the left” are going off the rails hurt “the left” as a whole. Quite the contrary — ignoring stuff like this and failing to speak out against it does.

AOC did the right thing by denouncing these cretins. Is she trying to “kill the left?” Presumably not, despite all the “she sold her soul to AIPAC” nonsense she got in response.

June 12, 2024 at 3:19 pm

Anonymous

One point Spencer makes is that, based on his understanding of the tunnel network, the entire two million population of Gaza could be protected in the tunnels.

That seems highly dubious. But also kind of beside the point: If Hamas hadn’t attacked Israel on October 7th, hadn’t taken hostages and wasn’t continuing to fight — for absolutely nothing other their own chance of returning to power — Gazans would have no need for underground shelters in the first place.

June 12, 2024 at 7:03 pm

bolithio

I read the Spencer piece and listened. Sorry, I totally disagree with most of his “anylisis”. Spencer, in a appeal to authority as the ‘professor’ of ‘urban war’ is engaging in all kinds of spin and cherry picked takes. Glick doesn’t know how to ask proper follow-up questions – (rather, as a conservative agitpop commentator just isnt going to) and is obviously puffing him. She writes for breightbart and has some…lets just say great takes. Like recently when she was “honored to meet with Trump” she tweeted:

No US president has been a better friend to Israel, or American Jewry.

LOL, mmk.

Back to neocon Spencer. Its really interesting that through his scholarship he has figured out gorilla warfare. This whole tactic of “what everyone gets wrong” and “what they aren’t telling you” is such a low rent, infomercial, attempt to discredit what people are watching with their goddam eyes.

One of my favorite takes is when he says something like “this is no insurgency, like in Iraq. I mean they may be terrorists but they are huge force, an army! a government!”

The ‘military’ wing of Hamas was tops 30K. The Iraq insurgency was made up of over 100K sunis and shi’its. They, like hamas used gorilla tactics and improvised weapons. Hamas did not invent striking at a superior military and winning attrition. It happened in Veitnam. It happened in Afghanistan. In Yemen, the huthis beat back the far superior Saudis with major American support and hardware. It happened in the American revolution. Yes, there are differences between these conflict zones, but the parallel is the same, where you have inferior armed groups disrupting major 1st world militaries.

he doesn’t really say anything “analytical” at all other than his weird ‘comparison’ rambling ad making these claims that facts aren’t facts and that people just aren’t looking at it right. With the usual BS about how ‘only Israel faces such criticism”.

Nonsense. The stark, obvious difference in these conflicts, is the level of destruction and death, and the intentional starvation of millions of people. America has not operated like this since Vietnam. Razing entire villages to get 1 target? Instigating a fight in crowded area than bombing it? No sorry, bullshit, that’s not how our military operates.

The unique aspect of this conflict is the conduct. Bombing every single hospital? Seriously? Air striking over 100 ambulance? Are you kidding me?

Killing 250 and injuring 800 more to rescue 4 people is the new standard of OK? As if there is no other option? As if there is not a hostage deal on the table that would get ALL of the hostages back and would kill no one? Lets risk the lives of hundreds of people, and killing even more hostages ourselves?

Just like Hamas, Bibi and the government of Israel, dont care at all about the lives of their hostages or their families and are more than willing to risk their lives and kill countless others for the very same exterminationist goals of Hamas. Why the fuck would they need to starve and entire population? Everyone knows this is not impacted Hamas at all. There is no ‘good’ reason. Just the one that is as insidious as Hamas’s goals.

The main difference for Americans, is that our money is only funding one of these genocidal agendas. Its Israel. Everyone (other than a few radicals) condemn Hamas. Like 95% of people in this country codemn Hamas. Yes we know. The endless hamas hamas hamas when we are talking about a bombed hospital.

Y’all have lost your minds defending this shit.

June 13, 2024 at 3:27 am

Anonymous

Therer have been ceasefire hostage deals “on the table” for months, and Hamas has rejected all of them, after breaking the last ceasefire, and the one before that — the one that was in operation when when they kidnapped all these hostages in the first place. So no, when Israeli has a chance to rescue hostages, they understandably are going to take it, not just wait and hope that the sociopaths holding them hostage might eventually release them.

Not one single innocent Gazan would have died in the hostage rescue operation if either (1) Hamas had not kidnapped them in the first place (a war crime), (2) Hamas had not continued to hold them hostage (a war crime) in a densely packed civilian area (a war crime), and (3) Hamas fighters in civilian clothes (a war crime) had not attacked the rescuers, who had every right to both rescue the hostages, and defend themselves and the hostages. Hamas had absolutely no right to kidnap these people, nor to hold them hostage, nor to endanger civilians by holding them in a civilian area, nor to attack their rescuers.

As always, you remain a 100% perfect tool for Hamas propaganda, heaping all blame on Israelis for the tragedy that Hamas has brought on Gazans and continues to impose on them every day due to their continued nonstop war criming.

June 13, 2024 at 3:36 am

Anonymous

“The endless hamas hamas hamas”

The endless Nazis, Nazis, Nazis! If only the allies had agreed to let Hitler remain in power, think how many civilian lives could have been saved!

June 13, 2024 at 3:37 am

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/arab-funding-of-american-universities-donors-recipients-and-impact-may-2024

I for one find a demonstration at a memorial for Hamas victims to be totally stupid and counter productive. Im not arguing to support that action.

…and…

Y’all have lost your minds defending this sh*t.

Nailed it bolithio. Thank you SO much!

June 13, 2024 at 3:42 am

Anonymous

Sorry, that’s unfair…to the Nazis, who unlike Hamas, did not (at least to the best of my knowledge) use hospitals as military bases.

June 13, 2024 at 6:09 am

Mitch

PA,

Spencer talks of 400 miles of tunnels. You can do the math. No, it would not be feasible, but two million would fit. The more important point is that they are not, as far as Spencer says, used for civilian protection at all. The reason for their existence is the support of military aggressors, not civil defense.

I find it interesting to hear a teacher from West Point, one who has served as a soldier and made the study of urban warfare his specialty. I find it interesting how his views of the situation differ from the understanding people like college protesters have.

unfortunately, we are now living in a country where different people believe in contradictory sets of facts. When people like the nullity say “x” and evidence is presented for “not x,” there is no longer an acknowledgement of error, or additional evidence. Instead, the discussion is changed to “y.”

This can go on indefinitely, which makes debate pointless. X: non-violent. Not x: Molotov cocktail. Y: 700 meters.

I don’t have a clue if the apparent decline in the usefulness of bringing facts to a discussion is due to trump and MAGA. It feels to me like they took a standard tendency and made it much more controlling, but perhaps it will turn out that was others, or both MAGA and others. I had associated it with the extreme right, but no longer do.

If Spencer is lying, or misinformed, then it is a mistake to rely on what he says. (“Duh.”) But in today’s world, how would a person find out? Only by listening for contradictions and evasions of the sort offered up by the nullity. But in the echo chambers such people create for themselves, pointing out contradictions and evasions is a reason to ignore a person as being unwoke.

On reflection, it is the same dogmatism I’ve always found repellent and embarrassing in religious fundamentalists.

June 13, 2024 at 7:00 am

bolithio

Going full circle, I think Glick demonstrates the Israel delusion in America perfectly with this statement:

No US president has been a better friend to Israel, or American Jewry.

She is talking about Trump. Let that sink in. Trump, has done more the awaken, enable and embolden white supremacists and neo-nazis in this country than anyone in modern history. The people who actually do violent hate crimes in this country. “good people on both sides”? No.

Whats more, Biden has given unwavering support to Israel including using executive powers to side step congress to provide them with weapons during this onslaught. He is still repeating the debunked IDF propaganda about the 10/7, he obviously has no “red line”, and announced a $1B weapons package days after the Rafah invasion. What more could Israel ask for?

He has muttered only the most tepid, weak criticism of Israel. This is what makes him ‘not a friend’? This is his great sin? Its insane. Say one single thing about Israel and we will destroy you. Spend millions to defeat you in your congressional district.

Israel, a foreign government, is spending 100s of millions of dollars to influence elections, influence lawmakers, right out in the open. Where are the hysterical Russia meddling freak our people?

When it comes to Israel, yes, it absolutely gets special treatment that no other country gets. The idea that is somehow negative for Israel is total projection.

June 13, 2024 at 7:06 am

Mitch

June 13, 2024 at 9:25 am

Anonymous

Israel, a foreign government, is spending 100s of millions of dollars to influence elections, influence lawmakers, right out in the open. Where are the hysterical Russia meddling freak our people?

There may be a valid point to be made here about Israeli attempts to influence US politics, but as someone who has spent years downplaying Russian meddling in US politics as no-big-deal-everybody-does-it — and who just dismissed such concerns as “hysterical” — you’re in absolutely no position to make it.

June 13, 2024 at 3:29 pm

Anonymous

Bad news, good news, in most recent poll of Palestinians.

Bad news: Most Palestinians still support the Hamas and their October 7th orgy of atrocities.

Good news: That support is falling pretty fast.

A recent survey conducted among Palestinians in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip indicates continued public support for Hamas and its October 7 attack on Israel, although support for the terror group within the Gaza Strip has decreased compared to previous surveys.

The Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research polls about 750 West Bank and 750 Gazan citizens every three months.

The main decrease in support for the October 7 attack among Palestinians, according to a new survey, is in Gaza, where it stands at 57 percent compared to 71 percent three months ago.

https://x.com/haaretzcom/status/1801385308019187896

Contradicts the anti-Israeli dogma that asserts that fighting Hamas only increases support for Hamas.

It seems that a growing number of Palestinians are beginning to realize that Hamas cares nothing for their wellbeing, has accomplished nothing for them, and only brought disaster upon them.

Not nearly enough yet, but at least headed in the right direction.

June 13, 2024 at 3:41 pm

Anonymous

Likely related:

‘What is Hamas waiting for?’: Palestinians in Gaza beg terror group to take truce deal.

In rare criticism, Gazans slam Hamas leaders in Qatar, ‘sleeping comfortably, eating and drinking’, say terror group doesn’t care about ‘ending suffering of the Palestinian people.’

In a rare reproach of Hamas from within Gaza, some Palestinians have voiced criticism of the terror group for failing to bring an end to the war with Israel that has devastated their lives since October 7.

Hamas has “led the Palestinian people into a war of annihilation,” said Umm Ala, 67, who has been displaced twice during more than eight months of war between Hamas and Israel.

“If the Hamas leaders were interested in ending this war and ending the suffering of the Palestinian people, they would have agreed [to a deal],” added Umm Ala, who has now sought refuge in Khan Younis, the main city in the southern Gaza Strip.

Some Gazans, who have lived in a climate of fear and restrictions since Hamas seized power in the territory in 2007, blame the Iran-backed terror group for the vast destruction caused by the war.

Hamas has made a “mockery of us, our pain and the destruction of our lives,” said Abu Eyad, 55, who lives in north Gaza.

https://x.com/TimesofIsrael/status/1801316384091345385

These are some brave people, who will most likely be hunted down and killed if Hamas and its supporters, bolstered by their chorus of useful idiots, achieve their aim of returning to power so that they can resume their brutal, dictatorial rule over Gazans.

June 13, 2024 at 3:56 pm

Anonymous

But I should have also noted that the survey was by a Israeli news paper, so it’s doubtful that the results can be believed.

June 13, 2024 at 4:17 pm

Anonymous

Obvious troll is obvious at 3:56.

And is lying. As noted above, the survey was conducted by The Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research which is neither Israeli, nor a newspaper:

PSR is an independent nonprofit institution and think tank of policy analysis and academic research. PSR was founded with the goal of advancing scholarship and knowledge on immediate issues of concern to Palestinians in three areas: domestic politics and government, strategic analysis and foreign policy, and public opinion polls and survey research. PSR research units conduct and organize four types of activities: research and policy analysis, empirical surveys and public opinion polls, task forces and study groups, and meetings and conferences. The units focus on current public policy issues with a special reliance on empirical research as a tool to advance scholarship and understanding.

PSR is dedicated to promoting objective and nonpartisan research and analysis and to encouraging a better understanding of Palestinian domestic and international environment in an atmosphere of free debate and exchange of ideas. PSR is registered as a nonprofit institution in the Palestinian Ministry of Justice.

Board of Trustees:

Dr. Mudar Kassis, associate professor of philosophy and cultural studies at Bir Zeit University and director of Muwatin Institute for Democracy and Human Rights at the university
Dr. Yezid Sayigh Senior fellow – Carnegie Middle East Center in Beirut – Lebanon
Dr. Azmi al Shuaibi AMAN’s commissioner for Combating Corruption, and former member of the Palestinian Legislative Council

Researchers and Administrators:

Dr. Khalil Shikaki , Director and Senior researcher: Associate Professor of Political Science, Ph. D. in Political Science, graduated from Columbia University in 1985
Mr. Alaa Lahloh , Researcher: Masters Degree in Political Science
Mr. Waleed Ladadweh , Researcher: Masters Degree in Sociology
Mr.Jehad Harb, Researcher: Masters Degree in Political Science
Ms. Amani Jamal , Research assistant: Bachelore’s degree in Pshycology, minor Education. Preparing for a Master’s degree in Community Mental Health.
Mr. Omran Nasser, Accountant: BA in accounting.
Mr. Hamada Jaber, Administrative & Financial Officer: master degree in Peacekeeping & Security Studies

June 13, 2024 at 4:23 pm

Mitch

But I should have also noted that the survey was by a Israeli news paper, so it’s doubtful that the results can be believed.

What have you seen from which Israeli newspapers that has been established as false?

June 14, 2024 at 6:56 am

June 14, 2024 at 12:47 pm

Weird, the inveterate media skeptic has finally found a media source worth trusting, and at all times when the death tolls of one side are 30 times those of the other, not to mention the razing of Gaza.🤨

June 14, 2024 at 6:59 am

Mitch

I trust Israel and Israelis far more than I trust America and Americans. But that, as it happens, is not what I said. I simply asked for known falsehoods propagated by Israeli journalists, and pointers to the evidence that they were false. I’m aware that there are endless lists of the way “devious Israelis lie;” I’d simply like the opportunity to investigate them myself before taking them at face value.

June 14, 2024 at 7:04 am

Mitch

And, once more again with feeling, the imbalance in death tolls has everything to do with the fact that one side has chosen to embed itself in a civilian population whose lives it does not value. To use the imbalance in death tolls as evidence that the side with the lower death toll is somehow “unfair” is something that is understandable until you understand the nature of what Hamas is doing.

But assuming you understand that Hamas actually seeks the death of its own civilian population, the high death toll is on Hamas. For example, the rescue of the four hostages, three held in the apartment of an Al Jazeera “journalist,” did not lead to any civilian deaths. Once the removal of the hostages from the apartments was a fait accompli, if Hamas had not chosen to fire on the departing hostages and their rescuers, there would have been no civilian deaths at all. But it is convenient to Hamas to cause a firefight in a heavily populated civilian neighborhood, and then blame Israel for hundreds of civilian deaths.

June 14, 2024 at 7:14 am

Mitch

Ah, and reading back through the thread, I see PA pointed out (4:17) that the poll results, supposedly false because Israel cannot be trusted (different anon, 3:56), were not generated by an Israeli source.

June 14, 2024 at 7:19 am

Mitch

“We have the Israelis right where we want them,” says Yahya Sinwar: https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/11/middleeast/sinwar-hamas-israel-ceasefire-hostage-talks-intl/index.html

He’s right, if John Spencer’s analysis is correct. Hamas’ goal is to separate Israel from its support, and survive with an element of its fighting force. It knows a high civilian death toll is a means to that end, and it even says so.

June 14, 2024 at 7:20 am

Mitch

And, again, this was all explained as clearly as I’ve seen anything explained, months ago, by Argumentative Penguin, in their Medium piece “The Accidental Endorsement of Terrorist Warfare.”

Exactly as with trump bringing America down to his level, Hamas is relying on prejudiced emotion to make easy what might otherwise be challenging.

June 14, 2024 at 7:27 am

Mitch

And I’ve yet to hear an explanation of how an Israeli sniper shooting to disable someone with a Molotov cocktail represents shooting at a non-violent person. This is relevant, because there’s an endless stream of disinformation about how Israelis shoot at non-violent Palestinians, and when Israeli newspapers report that they were not non-violent, they are not believed by student movements. This is where the nullity excels.

We are in a society in which truth has genuinely been crippled. The root cause is probably the technology that has changed the way we receive information, for generations now. Confirmation bias (if you doubt the students have it, just look at mine instead) leads to groups with completely different, enormously confident outlooks on reality.

June 14, 2024 at 7:31 am

Mitch

And this is how, despite the evidence before our eyes that most people simply adopt the religion and religious dogma that dominates their place and time, despite the religions of different places and times being mutually contradictory, people remain confident that their religion is the One True Religion. It’s built into our natures.

The fakery can only be overcome by rigorous intellectual effort, the sort that is demeaned in America — even, sadly, at our universities today.

June 14, 2024 at 9:23 am

Mitch

Interesting conversation today on the Ezra Klein show:

June 14, 2024 at 9:59 am

Anonymous

Weird, the inveterate media skeptic has finally found a media source worth trusting

The media source in question is Haaretz, a left wing newspaper that is often highly critical of the Israeli government, including in the conduct of this war.

However, even if you are unwilling to give any credence to any Israeli newspaper, no matter how closely they may actually align with many of your own concerns, in this case particular you don’t need to “trust” any newspaper, since the survey in question was conducted by a well-respected Palestinian polling organization, and the results are easily available online.

Of course if you’re a Justified Anti-Semite hunkered down in your “informational bunker,” looking for reasons to ignore or discount anything that doesn’t advance your chosen narrative, naturally you’re going to miss a lot of stuff.

bolithio

“And I’ve yet to hear an explanation of how an Israeli sniper shooting to disable someone with a Molotov cocktail represents shooting at a non-violent person. This is relevant, because there’s an endless stream of disinformation about how Israelis shoot at non-violent Palestinians, and when Israeli newspapers report that they were not non-violent, they are not believed by student movements. This is where the nullity excels.”

From one nullity to another, sure. Here is the explanation you have been waiting for:

First of all, it is clear from the reporting on these protests that they were overwhelming peaceful, however I do not argue that during the March of Return protests there were some violent actions, such as throwing rocks and burning bottles. This is very well documented.

I argue that rock and even burning bottles thrown at a militarized wall that is unpentatrable – poses no threat to Israeli snipers positioned 100s of yards on the other side of it.

I argue that people throwing things, even motov cocktails, should not be getting ‘the death penalty’.

When the IDF soldier bragged about shooting out 50 kneecaps in one day, are you saying that everyone of them was throwing a bottle and thus deserved to have their legs amputated?

No evidence presented. No court, no judge, no jury. The IDF sniper is the judge, jury and executioner, 700 yards away, behind a militarized unpenetrable wall.

And even if you believe that a teenager throwing a burning bottle deserves to die, no questions asked, it doesn’t change the fact that there is a ton of evidence of people killed, maimed and injured who were 100% not doing anything violent (other than the inherently violent act of demanding an end to Israeli brutalization).

From amnesty:

The organizers of the “Great March of Return” have repeatedly stated that the protests are intended to be peaceful, and they have largely involved demonstrators protesting near the fence that separates the Gaza Strip from Israel. Despite this, the Israeli army reinforced its forces – deploying tanks, military vehicles and soldiers, including snipers, along the Gaza/Israel fence – and gave orders to shoot anyone within several hundred metres of the fence.

While some protesters have engaged in some forms of violence including by burning tyres, flying incendiary kites or throwing stones and Molotov cocktails in the direction of Israeli soldiers, social media videos, as well as eyewitness testimonies gathered by Amnesty International, Palestinian and Israeli human rights groups show that Israeli soldiers shot unarmed protesters, bystanders, journalists and medical staff approximately 150-400m from the fence, where they did not pose any threat.

Doctors in Gaza have told Amnesty International that many of the serious injuries they have witnessed are to the lower limbs, including the knees, which are typical of war wounds that they have not observed since the 2014 Gaza conflict. Many have suffered extreme bone and tissue damage, as well as large exit wounds measuring between 10 and 15mm, and will likely face further complications, infections and some form of physical disability, such as paralysis or amputation. According to the Palestinian Center for Human Rights, during the six months of demonstrations at least 76 Palestinian demonstrators have had their lower or upper limbs amputated. Reports of the high number of injuries to the knees, which increase the probability of bullet fragmentation, are particularly disturbing. If true, they would suggest that the Israeli army is intentionally intending to inflict life-changing injuries.

According to military experts as well as a forensic pathologist who reviewed photographs of injuries obtained by Amnesty International, many of the wounds observed by doctors in Gaza are consistent with those caused by high-velocity Israeli-manufactured Tavor rifles using 5.56mm military ammunition. Other wounds bear the hallmarks of US-manufactured M24 Remington sniper rifles shooting 7.62mm hunting ammunition, which expand and mushroom inside the body.

The nature of these injuries shows that Israeli soldiers are using high-velocity military weapons designed to cause maximum harm to Palestinian protesters who do not pose an imminent threat to them. These apparently deliberate attempts to kill and maim are deeply disturbing, not to mention completely illegal. Some of these cases appear to amount to wilful killing, a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions and a war crime.

On 1 June, 21-year-old Razan al-Najjar, Palestinian paramedic, was shot in the chest and killed by Israeli sniper fire while providing first aid to injured protesters at the Gaza/Israel fence east of Khan Younis, in southern Gaza. Razan was wearing her white coat, clearly identifiable as a medic.

On 10 August, Israeli forces fired live ammunition towards the protesters east of Rafah, fatally injuring a volunteer paramedic Abdallah Sabri al-Qatati, 22, who was shot in the back while he was about 100m away from the fence, and was pronounced dead in hospital less than an hour after being shot.

Several videos posted on social media have shown unarmed protesters – men, women and children – being shot by the Israeli army. In some cases, people were shot while waving the Palestinian flag or running away from the fence. For example, video footage widely circulated on social media showed Ahmed Masabah Abu Tuyur, aged 16, being shot on 7 September as he was waving his hands at a great distance from the Gaza/Israel fence, east of Rafah. He was shot in the chest and died. On Friday 14 September, 12-year-old Shadi Abdul Aal was also killed by a gunshot wound to in the head.

On Friday 28 September, Mohamed Naiyf al-Houm, 14, was shot and killed by Israeli live ammunition, which struck him from behind in the abdomen, east of al-Boreij refugee camp while attending the 27^th “Great March of Return” demonstration.

On the same day, Nasser Azmi Mosbeh, 12, was shot in the head and killed by Israeli live ammunition in eastern Khan Younis. He was immediately taken to the European Gaza Hospital where he was pronounced dead an hour later. Nasser had been attending the “Great March of Return” demonstrations since they started on 30 March. Both of his sisters are volunteer paramedics in Khan Younis and were colleagues of Razan al-Najjar.

June 14, 2024 at 12:58 pm

Mitch

The simple solution? Don’t fly incendiary kites, don’t bring molotov cocktails, don’t throw rocks. Use your police forces to ensure that no threat can be perceived by the enemy, since your enemy will be on high alert following your government’s launching of unguided rockets into their territory or your government’s murder, rape, and kidnapping of their civilians.

I refuse to second guess a military that is attempting to defend itself from people which have caused it harm, by firing at attackers. It would not surprise me if there are some soldiers that brag about exploits; this could be due to personal sadism or it could be due to intense emotion from having had friends lost or wounded as a result of prior attacks.

If your goal is to get yourself killed, sure, heading to your border with the enemy and then holding a weapon and acting in a potentially threatening manner is a great way to achieve that, and a great way to get publicity for your cause.

If your goal is to protest peacefully, see my first paragraph.

Even gathering a large peaceful group by a border following an invasion in which people were murdered, raped, and kidnapped is a threatening gesture. I guess it makes for better visuals.

June 14, 2024 at 12:59 pm

Mitch

It continues to leave me slack-jawed that I even have to say what I’ve just said.

June 14, 2024 at 1:09 pm

bolithio

I would be slack jawed too if I was defending unjust murder.

June 14, 2024 at 1:16 pm

Mitch

The death of Mohamed Naiyf al-Houm was during a large series of marches from 2018-2019, the Great March of Return.

There’s a large review of the various events at Wikipedia, which shows how the Palestinian and Israeli accounts differ.

According to a contractor who built the fence near which the 2018 demonstrations took place: “A crowd surging towards the fence could cross the fence in some 30 seconds.”

And this “peaceful, non-violent” protest was taken over by Hamas, which ordered its own soldiers to take part:

“The organizers tried to keep the protest independent from Hamas and other political groups, but by March 2018, Hamas had become heavily involved in organizing them.^[64] Local newspapers, television and social media mobilized Gazans to join the March. Hamas also ordered its own soldiers to take part. To maximize the credibility of the protests, it reportedly planned to keep the peace by having plain clothed security personnel move among the protestors.^[67]“

I think this is unchallenged:

The first protest took place on 30 March 2018, around 500 to 700 metres (1,600 to 2,300 ft) from the Israel–Gaza border fence.^[75] The date was chosen to coincide with Land Day. 30,000 Palestinians participated.^[25] The majority of the demonstrators in the encampments were away from the border security and did not engage in violence.^[57] Hundreds of young Palestinians, however, ignored warnings by the organizers and the Israeli military to avoid the border zone.^[76] Some began throwing stones and Molotov cocktails, to which Israel responded by declaring the Gaza border zone a closed military zone and opening fire at them.^[57] The events of the day were some of the most violent in recent years.^[77] In one incident, two Palestinian gunmen approached the fence, armed with AK-47 assault rifles and hand grenades, and exchanged fire with IDF soldiers. They were killed and their bodies were recovered by the IDF.^[78][79][80]

So this is actually quite consistent. Even in 2018, Hamas’ strategy was to win world sympathy by attempting to get its civilians killed, and it was successful.

June 14, 2024 at 1:23 pm

Mitch

(Footnotes and links removed in hopes of getting around automatic moderation.)

The deaths of Mohamed Naiyf al-Houm and Nasser Azmi Mosbeh were during a large series of marches from 2018-2019, the Great March of Return.

There’s a large review of the various events at Wikipedia, which shows how the Palestinian and Israeli accounts differ.

According to a contractor who built the fence near which the 2018 demonstrations took place: “A crowd surging towards the fence could cross the fence in some 30 seconds.”

And this “peaceful, non-violent” protest was taken over by Hamas, which ordered its own soldiers to take part:

“The organizers tried to keep the protest independent from Hamas and other political groups, but by March 2018, Hamas had become heavily involved in organizing them. Local newspapers, television and social media mobilized Gazans to join the March. Hamas also ordered its own soldiers to take part. To maximize the credibility of the protests, it reportedly planned to keep the peace by having plain clothed security personnel move among the protestors.“

I think this is unchallenged:

The first protest took place on 30 March 2018, around 500 to 700 metres (1,600 to 2,300 ft) from the Israel–Gaza border fence. The date was chosen to coincide with Land Day. 30,000 Palestinians participated. The majority of the demonstrators in the encampments were away from the border security and did not engage in violence. Hundreds of young Palestinians, however, ignored warnings by the organizers and the Israeli military to avoid the border zone. Some began throwing stones and Molotov cocktails, to which Israel responded by declaring the Gaza border zone a closed military zone and opening fire at them. The events of the day were some of the most violent in recent years. In one incident, two Palestinian gunmen approached the fence, armed with AK-47 assault rifles and hand grenades, and exchanged fire with IDF soldiers. They were killed and their bodies were recovered by the IDF.

So this is actually quite consistent. Even in 2018, Hamas’ strategy was to win world sympathy by attempting to get its civilians killed, and it was successful.

As we’ve seen with their use of journalists, they’ve made their own paramedics unsafe by creating situations where people in paramedic uniforms can no longer be firmly believed to be paramedics.

June 15, 2024 at 6:44 am

June 15, 2024 at 10:47 am

Me: Weird, the inveterate media skeptic has finally found a media source worth trusting

Anon: The media source in question is Haaretz, a left wing newspaper that is often highly critical of the Israeli government, including in the conduct of this war.

That’s not what Mitch said but you, assuming it’s still the person who is such a stickler to accuracy, should know this. I tend to like Haarertz but would question any source of polling of a population under seige and desparate for food shelter and their very lives. In general I’d also question any Western polling of any non-Western country. I’m dubious of the value of polling in our own country and all but completely dismissive of it;s value outside the Western world.

Here is what Mitch said (or asked)…

What have you seen from which Israeli newspapers that has been established as false?

Ah, but I now see that it was a trick question. Mitch wasn’t REALLY asking for evidence of how an Israeli newspaper is lying, but trying to eek out latent antisemitism.

Mitch, I trust you remember our conversations about what is the unit underlying the political system, is it simply the vote, or is it something deeper, something like trust or credibility.

Mitch

Jon,

I don’t view what is happening as latent antisemitism. I view it as the result of clear antisemitism from people who deny to themselves that they are antisemitic. Including some Jews, for anyone who finds that pleasing. And, while I expect that the vast majority of claims of false reporting in Israeli newspapers are themselves false, I am open to finding out what actual falsehoods may have been published and not corrected.

October 8th was the end of the last shred of trust I had in the American electorate. And I don’t care. What will be will be. This is a country that would not bomb the rail lines leading to the death camps, so my expectations have been low, and were lowered upon the election of trump. There wasn’t very much distance to fall.

June 15, 2024 at 10:51 am

Mitch

A picture of the founding of Tel Aviv, 1909. Look at all the displaced people:

https://images.app.goo.gl/3doA93QsLdAsbt1N7

June 15, 2024 at 11:32 am

Anonymous

I’d also question any Western polling of any non-Western country

As noted several times above, this survey was done by a respected Palestinian public opinion pollster, surveying Palestinians.

June 15, 2024 at 2:01 pm

I view it as the result of clear antisemitism from people who deny to themselves that they are antisemitic. Including some Jews for anyone who finds that pleasing.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen you admit this Mitch. Does that admission please me? Not in the least and what a strange thing to say. I’m here to understand and this has always been one of the most confounding aspects of the accusation of antisemitism to me.

Can you explain to me how a Jewish person could be antisemitic, and I’m not talking about the rare person who might be suffering some psychological problem, but some who loves themselves and humanity, the ones typical of organizations like Mondoweis, Jewish Voice for Peace and many Haaretz contributors who are frequent guests on Democracy Now?

Are anti-Zionist Jews more likely than not antisemitic and if so, what percentage of the sorts I post here (loud, counter-cultural & empathetic) if you had to wager a guess.

June 15, 2024 at 2:12 pm

Is Katie or @sexualityscholar on TikTok antisemitic? Because it’s people like her whom I’ve encountered IRL and online that remind me that what binds us is our shared humanity and also that those that would ask us to disassociate ourselves from one another, even if it from retribution from 1909 or 2019 or A.D. 00 for any other reason that has nothing to do with Israel but might have to do with race, gender, gender identity, nationality, religion or socio economic status can go straight to hell for all I care. Or they could have a wonder Saturday too, I’m not wasting my emotional energy on them.

@sexualityscholar

Like, I’m 30.

♬ original sound – Katie

June 15, 2024 at 2:18 pm

June 16, 2024 at 12:33 pm

As noted several times above, this survey was done by a respected Palestinian public opinion pollster, surveying Palestinians.

It’s so cool that in a region without dependable food, water, energy, schools, hospitals, or shelter, not to mention any economy to pay for any of these, that we have such reliable polling. Whoop whoop for newspaper readers and politicians & pundits with a story to tell.

June 15, 2024 at 2:41 pm

Mitch

Can you explain to me how a Jewish person could be antisemitic,

Maybe an easier question is how can a gay person be homophobic, and the same answer applies in both cases. When you are swimming in a set of societal assumptions, you are likely to take them on-board to some degree. Even when you disagree with the assumptions intellectually, the need for acceptance can lead you to grant them more credence than you might expect of yourself. So I think a lot of gay people of my age grew up with internalized homophobia.

The same applies to Blacks. The same applies to Jews. Unfortunately, the same applies to just about every group deemed minority. Even as a member of the minority, you still incorporate the assumptions of the majority about the nature of the minority.

In the case of Israel, you have a half-century of images provided by the BDS movement of the inevitably unpleasant behavior of an occupying authority. That is what the students of today are exposed to, while I was primarily exposed to a very different understanding of Israel as I was growing up.

I’ve never been to Israel, but my understanding of it has always been as a place where kibbutzniks were demolishing the old image of the scholarly weak Jew who couldn’t work with their hands, where people were building up a nation against impossible odds and bravely responding to terrorism that would bring down any other nation. A nation that was the only democracy in the region, surrounded by Arab dictatorships. A nation that had made the desert bloom.

I still believe essentially all of that. Today’s students never had that experience.

Instead, today’s students grow up hearing nullities talk about non-violent people, who happen to have non-violent molotov cocktails to throw, being shot at, for no reason at all, by the mean Israelis. It never seems to rattle their convictions when it turns out that hospitals are used as military headquarters, or that missiles attacking hospitals turn out to come from Hamas and not Israel. I can see that at work when people automatically blame Israel for hundreds of Palestinian casualties resulting from a hostage rescue, when the hostages had already been rescued with no civilian casualties before they and their rescuers came under attack. There is a set of assumptions that are not questioned.

Empathy calls for alignment with the victims of the occupation; it takes education to understand the history and realize that things might not be as simple as a bully beating up on a victim. No college student wants to be seen as siding with the bully rather than the victim, so in the absence of any understanding of what has been going on other than the pictures people have been shown for fifty years, people will drift towards an anti-Israel stance. And I feel confident that this drift is made easier by antisemitism embedded in society.

Unfortunately, a lot of propaganda has gone relatively unchallenged for a half century, and today’s students are being taught be people who were themselves heavily influenced by the sad pictures they were seeing 25 years ago.

And then Israel itself has moved to the right, and a subset of Israelis do things in the occupied territories that are indefensible. It all makes it challenging to get what I would consider a fair overview of the actual situation.

June 15, 2024 at 2:45 pm

Mitch

To be clear, I think the main reason Israel has moved to the right is its inability to find a partner for peace. Eventually, you give up and just want to feel safe in your country, and if that means an iron boot on others, too bad for them.

June 15, 2024 at 2:50 pm

Mitch

Somewhat off topic, which I realize is par for the course, I’ve been gratified to see all the historical dramas where Black actors play the roles of white people, with no in-drama note that the people are being played by actors of a different color. It’s not that “I don’t see color;” it’s that finally Black kids and white kids grow up seeing Black people on TV in roles other than gang-banger, cop, or Magical Negro. I think that can only help the coming generation. I can’t imagine what sort of twisting it does to people’s minds to see only yesterday’s stereotypes on TV.

June 16, 2024 at 9:10 am

Anonymous

It’s so cool that in a region without dependable food, water, energy, schools, hospitals, or shelter, not to mention any economy to pay for any of these, that we have such reliable polling.

Do we known for a fact that this polling is 100% accurate? Of course not. But since this not the first survey these folks have done since Oct 7th, presumably using the same methodology, the direction of change is likely to be fairly accurate, even if the topline numbers are not perfectly so.

Personally I don’t find it particularly hard to believe that the percentage of Gazans who still support Hamas’ Oct 7th attacks is falling. Seems perfectly rational to me, given that those attacks started a war that has caused widespread devastation in Gaza, while accomplishing nothing useful for the average Palestinian.

But it’s certainly possible that the survey is wrong, even directionally, and that in fact the number of Palestinians supportive of the Oct 7th attacks is actually be growing. That would be extremely unfortunate for all concerned (except, of course, Hamas and its supporters). But I suspect, and certainly hope, that most Palestinians are smarter than that.

June 16, 2024 at 12:35 pm

Thank you for the thoughtful answer Mitch.

https://x.com/etanetan23/status/1802310599776276750

But back at it. Here is some Israeli news coverage & punditry …

On @N12News Israel’s most watched news show, former Likud MP Moshe Feiglin invokes Hitler to justify Gaza resettlement:

“As Hitler said, ‘I cannot live if one Jew is left,’ we can’t live here if one ‘Islamo-nazi’ remains in Gaza.”

June 16, 2024 at 1:08 pm

Mitch

Feiglin is a great demonstration that a person can be Jewish and utterly despicable. I would never deny that some horrible Israeli Jews exist, or that they are dangerous. It is awful that this man had a seat in the Knesset.

Here’s an extract from Wikipedia:

Hitler comments

In an article in Haaretz, Yossi Sarid quoted Feiglin, in the context of demonstrations against the Oslo accords, as saying, “Hitler was an unparalleled military genius. Nazism promoted Germany from a low to a fantastic physical and ideological status. The ragged, trashy youth body turned into a neat and orderly part of society and Germany received an exemplary regime, a proper justice system and public order. Hitler savored good music. He would paint. This was no bunch of thugs. They merely used thugs and homosexuals.” Feiglin clarified his position to the Maariv newspaper that just because he considers Hitler a military genius, this does not mean he admires him.^[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moshe_Feiglin

June 16, 2024 at 1:13 pm

Mitch

Here’s a rule-of-thumb I think I may have just created. When you find a Jew quoting Adolf Hitler in an admiring way, repeatedly, you can safely assume the Jew is nuts.

June 16, 2024 at 2:47 pm

oops sorry, is the proper #BastionOfLiberalism terminology “pro-Hamas”?

Large procession of pro-Palestinian students just walked out of Stanford University’s graduation

June 16, 2024 at 2:48 pm

https://x.com/metzgov/status/1802406495260418509

June 16, 2024 at 2:56 pm

https://x.com/metzgov/status/1802406495260418509

This poor, dear man’s (Corey Balsam of Jewish Voices Canada) intellect is overcome by his need for acceptance by Canadians, the nullities and BDS types all.

June 16, 2024 at 4:05 pm

Mitch

I see nothing wrong with walking out of an event, as long as it isn’t accompanied by an attempt to drown out speech. That’s the opposite of other campus protests.

June 17, 2024 at 9:27 am

bolithio

“In the case of Israel, you have a half-century of images provided by the BDS movement of the inevitably unpleasant behavior of an occupying authority.”

If only no one saw the pictures of occupation, knew about the occupation, or learned about the occupation. If only “BDS” had not provided the images from 50 years of occupation. The dispossession, the destruction and dehumanization of a people. So unpleasant.

This is essentially what I am hearing. If only you believed in the Zionist dream, the one where the homeland for jews who fled persecution was peacefully founded and “made the desert bloom.” Because the people who occupied the land before do nothing beautiful. They could not make the desert bloom, or have any meaningful culture. In fact, they have no culture at all, other than being “Arab”. They are not even real. Let me show you a picture. In my picture, the Palestinian doesn’t exist. Their story and history is inconsequential to people who survived the holocaust, made a home in this place, and who can do wrong now.

Never do I hear any honest reflection. If only Israel treated the Palestinian better, did not dehumanize them for 50 years, maybe in that context people would believe them when they complain they cant find a partner for peace. Like if only that happened, those images would not exist for students to see and learn about. If only Israel was not running an apartheid, there would not be a BDS movement against them. Never are these reflections made. Instead its all about smearing everyone who calls out these actions as antisemitic or whatever. Its denial at the base level. And to look at slaughtering 10K children in response to a terrorist attack as in any way OK, its pure evil. In every way as evil as the terrorist attack.

Israel is never going to recover from this. Not only are they not making their rouge state any safer, or the region, they have completely shown their true colors. A blood red stain that wont wash away from a long, long time. They are no better, or worse than the “Arab dictatorships” they deplore.

June 17, 2024 at 9:54 am

Mitch

No response needed.

June 17, 2024 at 2:41 pm

Anonymous

Israel will recover from this war, and so will Gaza, notwithstanding the hyperbolic ranting of this hopelessly biased, myopic blowhard.

June 18, 2024 at 6:04 am

What 30K murdered in a war with only one army? What Gaza Strip? They will recover like a million blooms in the crushed concrete and will live again to (probably) hate Jews (I mean it is in their nature, check out the 20th century).

Accountability for 1200 murdered & 200 hostages? Of course! Accountability for 40,000 dead? Nah, they’ll get over it. We’ll all get over it.

Is this good person antisemitic?

@fumptruck

#jewish #israel #freepalestine #palestine #rabbi #zionist #zionism #🇵🇸 #🍉

♬ original sound – Garage Gremlin 🍉

And I am so curious Mitch, of the thousands of Jewish people around the world who are either in the media or activist groups or posting thoughtful, heartfelt & caring online pro-Palestinian and anti-Zionist perspectives, how many of them do you write off as antisemitic? All? A small minority? Most? Halfish?

June 18, 2024 at 6:09 am

No lies detected.

@fumptruck

#zionist #israel #palestine #jewish #tikkunolam

♬ original sound – Garage Gremlin 🍉

June 18, 2024 at 6:20 am

I don’t know about homophobic LGBTQ people but I’d imagine it stems from literal self-hatred, a hatred of that within themselves that doesn’t conform to society. I don’t know of any pro-Palestinian Jewish people who condemn or hate themselves. They love and cherish their Jewish heritage, they decry and abhor actual antisemitism AND they base & root their pro-Palestinian & anti-Zionist beliefs in Judiasm &/or their Jewish heritage.

Frumptrucks TikTok above is a perfect example of this.

It seems to me there is a world of difference between what a homophobic gay man must contend with and what the pro-Palestinian Jews I’m aware of believe and that difference is on of one grappling with hatred and the other with love & empathy for Palestinians and it’s absence from too many their own tribe.

June 18, 2024 at 6:43 am

Mitch

The Jewish tradition is one of empathy for those who suffer. Palestinians have suffered and are now suffering, so young Jews become pro-Palestinian.

It is only with an understanding of what Israel faces and has faced since long before its independence that anyone can understand Israel’s behavior. Living in a fundamentally anti-semitic society, these Jews have not learned what Jews in Israel face and have faced, except perhaps from their “hopelessly unwoke” older relatives.

Their peers, the most important group in establishing a young person’s identity, have taught them that there is only one side in this conflict; the nullity demonstrates how it is done, as do you. It is a huge and horrible lie, but I completely understand how they have taken it in. And they have leaned over so far backwards to support a group that they worry has been “othered” that they’ve fallen flat on their butts.

June 18, 2024 at 6:45 am

Mitch

Also, lest you think my statement unclear, let me make it as clear as I can: I view and have always viewed American society as fundamentally anti-semitic. Americans can like Seinfeld and bagels and that doesn’t change anything.

June 18, 2024 at 6:46 am

Mitch

Home

June 18, 2024 at 6:50 am

Mitch

In short, I view Americans attitudes towards all “minorities” as basically the same as that of pre-WWII Germans. I don’t think America or Americans as in any way special; just the beneficiaries of the rape of a continent and the lucky last man standing in the last world war. So when I see the beneficiaries of every cruelty America has inflicted on the world and on its minority populations standing for terrorism against the world’s Jewish nation, it doesn’t strike me for a single moment as in any way exceptional.

June 18, 2024 at 6:51 am

Mitch

And having said that, I still think the enlightenment founders of America were part of the world’s progress. We’ve all failed them since.

June 18, 2024 at 7:27 am

June 18, 2024 at 10:05 am

Does anti-antisemitic dialog help the antisemitic nature of the US at all? Is there any “education” to be had? The reason I ask is what I hear on Glenn Beck everyday. In fact there is an advertisement for it for a Christian/Jewish religious non profit that helps build, for example, bunkers in Israel. And that is just the tip of the iceberg of “education” agains antisemitism throughout our society. I’m starting to get the gumption back to be able to listen to Medved and we both know he’ll be preaching the good word. And I don’t mean that sarcastically, as far as anti-semitism goes, up to the line of being Islamophobic or pro-Zionist, as an “older woke” person, I’m for the good word of shaming antisemitism.

June 18, 2024 at 7:32 am

Mitch

I don’t watch whatever stuff you watch. I’m aware that evangelical christians want Jews in Jerusalem to hurry up and rise to heaven, and I couldn’t give a shit. I can’t imagine anything more anti-semitic than wanting a holy war.

June 18, 2024 at 7:33 am

Mitch

Sorry, I typed that so fast I was unclear. “I’m aware that evangelical christians want to get Jews into Jerusalem so that they, the evangelical christians, can get to heaven faster.”

Fuck those motherfuckers.

June 18, 2024 at 7:35 am

Mitch

I am clearly angry enough it’s time for a timeout, though I am not at all upset with my 7:33 and I believe it is appropriate and accurate. But bye for now.

Anonymous

Person too stupid and/or lazy to aim her phone camera, has strong belief that Zionists, who fought British colonial powers to win their independence and then repeatedly fought off the combined armies of neighboring Arab dictatorships to defend their new (old) home, were cowardly and lazy. Okaaaay. But hey, she’s a Jew calling other Jews lazy and cowardly, so the Justified Anti-Semite absolutely loves it, because of course he does.

June 18, 2024 at 12:55 pm

Mitch

I hadn’t watched it, Anon. Most likely, she’s scared to show her face, which is understandable. What’s not understandable is the 1.2M, if that indicates 1.2 million views. If this video attracted 1.2 million views, that goes a long way to helping me understand the campus protests. Students are brain dead.

June 18, 2024 at 6:51 pm

bolithio

The Jewish tradition is one of empathy for those who suffer. Palestinians have suffered and are now suffering, so young Jews become pro-Palestinian.

Being anti Palestinian is not part of the Jewish tradition either. That is a Israeli tradition.

June 19, 2024 at 4:52 am

Focusing on the message rather than the messenger as always and as always so generous to those you disagree with anon. Mitch, that’s her at 6:04 am.

Which is it, is she brain dead or antisemitic or both? And what exactly is wrong about what she said about Zionism?

Interestingly, if I recall, pre-10/07 when we’d talk about Israel, you always brought up Europe to blame for drawing the lines. Do you remember those days? Herzl wasn’t mentioned nor was Zionism.

The heart of her rant that gets to the heart of Israel is that it is an ethnostate. That in and of itself is a problem which directly leads to the problems we see today with no resolution unless one side or the other surrenders . Now you all *might* concede that Israel is an ethnostate, but if you do, you will explain it away as realpolitik b/c the Arab world was the true instigator of ethnostates by expelling Jewish people from majority Arab countries.

(btw, a Bridgerton TikTok got 1.5 million views (also without her face centered btw, the Queen!), this one got 1.5k so that might buoy your feelings about our yuts Mitch.)

June 19, 2024 at 5:11 am

has strong belief that Zionists, who fought British colonial powers to win their independence and then repeatedly fought off the combined armies of neighboring Arab dictatorships to defend their new (old) home, were cowardly and lazy.

Not what she said, she said, and this is important, Theodor Hertzl was lazy b.c rather that fighting the good fight to to protect Jews worldwide from the scourge of antisemitism, something I think is underway, he instead focused on creating an ethnostate where Jews could live in peace. She is saying that idea is lazy annd innately harmful and imo she ain’t wrong.

June 19, 2024 at 5:15 am

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c2eem7e7v30o

Being anti Palestinian is not part of the Jewish tradition either. That is a Israeli tradition.

*likes* *retweets*

June 19, 2024 at 5:30 am

Anonymous

Focusing on the message rather than the messenger as always

Pretty hilarious coming from the guy who routinely dismisses and often refuses to even read anything written by and/or published anywhere he can even tangentially connect to one of his designated out-groups, and proudly asserts the rightness of his strategy of remaining in his “informational bunker” where he only takes in views he already agrees with.

Meanwhile Jon has trouble understanding what’s wrong with calling Zionists, aka the overwhelming majority of Jews, “lazy” and “cowardly.” Because of course he does, they’re Jews, oops, I mean Zionists, so they’ve got it coming, as always. Would he have any difficulty understanding the problem if these labels were applied to most Arabs or Muslims? Of course not.

But at least he seems to realize the utter hypocrisy of singularly complaining about Israel being majority Jewish, in a world with literally hundreds of majority Muslim and majority Christian countries, more than a few of whom continuously oppressed and periodically slaughtered or expelled their Jews. Of course he dismisses this as “explaining away” the existence of one tiny Jewish-majority state in the entire world. But clearly even Jon can’t quite escape the realization of just hypocritical and problematic the “ethnostate” complaint is.

June 19, 2024 at 5:33 am

Mitch

The BBC has an article about a 75 year old hostage released back in November. She no longer believes peace is possible. She is also one of at least ten hostages who indicates a hospital was a terrorist hub. But who are you gonna believe, a 75 year old former peace activist or a noble terrorist leader? Obviously the world will continue to take the Hamas hospital director at his word. Israel is genocidal and just kills Palestinians for no reason.

Truly, the world can and should go fuck itself, starting with the faculties of Harvard, CPH, and the other clown training centers.

“When they got into the city, Ms Sagi said, they were taken to a hospital – which she believes was southern Gaza’s main hospital, Nasser – and told: “You are staying here.”

“Ms Sagi said: “People say that they are not involved. They’re involved… and getting money for each of us.”

“Testimony from a number of other released hostages places 10 hostages in total at Nasser hospital, one of whom remains in captivity.

“When asked by the BBC to comment on Ms Sagi’s allegations, the hospital’s director, Dr Atef al-Hoot, denied that any hostages were kept there and said it only provided humanitarian services.

June 19, 2024 at 5:41 am

Mitch

As a simple statement of fact, as of yesterday afternoon I’ve stopped reading what Jon and the nullity post here. No point. Most likely I’ll continue to come here to share the latest atrocity news, just because. But if I no longer seem to be replying to whatever bullshit, it’s because I’ve stopped bothering to read it.

June 19, 2024 at 7:15 am