So here’s the “bombshell” as I understand it. Please tell me what I’m missing and what we’ve actually learned with the Twitter email releases which is new. I’m not seeing much.
So in 2020 the FBI caught wind of a potential Russian social media misinformation campaign and wanted to avoid a repeat of 2016 so warned several major platforms to keep them from being played the way they had been the first time around. The FBI provided no specifics and certainly made no mention of Hunter Biden.
A few days later the right wing tabloid, known for posting crap they don’t bother to verify when it suits their agenda, broke the Hunter Biden laptop story – revealing basically that H. Biden is a B.S. artist who convinced a Ukrainian corporation that by paying him a large salary they would be buying influence with then VP Biden. For this, they got a five minute conversation in an airport. The NY Post falsely reported that VP Biden had lobbied to get the Ukrainian prosecutor fired because of an investigation involving his son and his company (the prosecutor had actually ended the investigation, which had pertained to the company prior to H. Biden’s involvement, and when VP Biden and some European leaders got the corrupt prosecutor fired, there was actually a chance that the new prosecutor would reopen the investigation – which he sort of did and came to the same conclusions as the first prosecutor).
Executives at Twitter assumed that the tabloid’s story was based on the warned about misinformation or a Russian hack job and based upon its policy regarding hacked materials, suppressed posts about it. The suppression lasted for a few days before caving to pressure to forego censorship without more information – including pressure from the very liberal Congressman Ro Khanna (so far the only pubic official doxed by the story, and he did exactly the opposite of what Democrats are accused of doing – arguing the First Amendment “principles”, though the Amendment doesn’t apply to a private entity as a matter of law).
Ro Khanna may possibly become the Bernie’s heir as leader of the Democratic left, and I agree with his statement: “A journalist should not be held accountable for the illegal actions of the source unless they actively aided the hack. So to restrict the distribution of that material, especially regarding a Presidential candidate, seems not in the keeping of the principles of NYT v Sullivan.”
His protest against the Twitter policy is really the only meaningful revelation I’m finding in the story. I liked him before. I like him even more now.
The most notable suppression was of Kayleigh McEnany’s account when it was suspended for a day under the policy. This actually drew more attention to the laptop story as I remember. The whole policy lasted about three days, from October 14 to 17.
Despite Musk’s promise of providing evidence that Twitter acted “under orders from the Government” (which was being run by Trump at the time – I guess he forgot that), no evidence has been produced so far, and Matt Taibbi says there isn’t any. Musk is whining about the shoulder-shrugging of the media treating it like a “nothingburger” (Musk’s term) and even the NY Post is referring to the dump as “a dud.” Meanwhile, Twitter employees across the board are really angry that Musk and Taibbi felt it necessary to reveal names (who will now be threatened by crazies) as well as private email addresses.
However, Trump thinks this is all evidence that the election was stolen and is calling for the election to be overturned pending a new one, and “termination” of all rules, regulations, etc., “even those found in the Constitution.” And Republicans are silent about that even as they’re feeling let down by Musk.
Am I missing anything?
For the record, Twitter ought to have consulted the FBI as to whether the Post story about the laptop was part of the misinformation campaign they were anticipating, and should not have drawn conclusions about the story even knowing the unreliability of the source. It was an overreaction. But did it have any impact on the election? Only to the extent that the NY Post’s lying innuendo about the Ukrainian prosecutor and Biden’s involvement in his firing might have misled voters the same way Comey’s last minute statement did. We all knew abou the laptop then, and we know about it today. And we’ll be hearing about it ad nauseum for the next two years.
Meanwhile, give Ro Khanna his due!
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December 4, 2022 at 5:15 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
Am I missing anything in the Musk/Taibbi dump?
Yes, you are missing the forest for the trees.
Taibi is as great of a jerk, as you’ve put it in the past, as Musk. Personal traits aside Taibi has long ago crossed a line and isn’t someone to be trusted. The thread below tries to articulate or define this quality that so many of us “know it when we see it”.
In this thread they are described as red-pilled or alt-left (which I of course reject b/c their politics has nothing to do with the left) or “Joe Rogan Culture Warrior Republicans” and include Musk, Gabbard, Greenwald and now definitely Taibi too.
Also, you are dead wrong about Khana and I’d never support or trust him like I do Sanders. He’s something, I don’t know what yet and I can’t remember the policies and votes where he’s been wrong, but he is no Sanders. Imo, the best we have as an heir, one that could never be president but understands progressive principles while not giving into the despair or stubbornness of the DemExit is Pramila Jayapal.
I’m hopeful that in the end Ro Khana can do more good than harm to progressivism, and I do believe he is on an political arc of sorts but we don’t yet know the end of his story. Time will tell and I hope for the best.
December 4, 2022 at 5:34 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
I disagree will the Tweeter Will that the Musk/Tiaibi/Greenwald/Gabbard/Rogan types represent a faction. I think the better way of understanding the phenomena, imo, is human nature. They all are people who demonstrate anti-establishment politics but are not so involved or committed or dependent upon big “D” Democratic or small “l” liberal politics that they don’t see when they’ve crossed a line.
I think this tweet from the thread above gets to the heart of that crossed line and I’ll also say it also represents an important difference between Eric’s politics, and most of his readers, and my own. For example, what exactly is meant when we say we we shouldn’t write the white working class off? And I’m not taking the moral high ground there, I’m asking for specifics, how do we go about “not writing off the *white* working class?
December 4, 2022 at 5:39 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
December 4, 2022 at 5:59 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
From Jeet Heer “they aren’t capable of shame”.
And the capability for regret or remorse is important if one doesn’t want to go through life being seen as a jerk , or more importantly being a jerk. And honestly, for people like Trump or Musk or Taibi I think an important aspect of their being red-pilled is their personal grievances against their own cancellation; cancellation with just cause btw (see tweet below). The way out of cancellation is a reversion to the mean of being a compassionate human. They’ve all chosen the other route, “it’s them, not me”.
December 4, 2022 at 9:17 am
Eric Kirk
Musk’s “evidence” of government official involvement is the Biden campaign’s reporting the HB dick pics as violating terms of use. Even if such reporting could be construed as “collusion,” the Biden campaign is not a government entity. Musk is confused.
Taibbi says that he’s seen no evidence of actual government official involvement. And even the NY Post is “underwhelmed” by what appears to be a Musk PR stunt in an attempt to keep Twitter relevant.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/deeply-underwhelmed-right-wingers-on-musks-overhyped-twitter-files
December 4, 2022 at 9:31 am
Mitch
Follow the money. Musk is a billionaire. As a result, his next step is to capture the means of communication. Billionaire life must be boring until you begin to work on next steps.
December 4, 2022 at 9:55 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
Take a step back Eric, there is no need to get in the weeds on this. It’s more important to take a look at the big picture. What this is about is the right wing is desperate to have the Hunter Biden story be a thing. It’s good ole entirely or largely distractive negative politics 24/7 to both attract eyeballs, which you are doing too btw, and to distract all of us from focusing on good policy which might have a chance of improving our lot. It’s trying to give credence to their upcoming hearings to try to play the same game we were on impeaching Trump and the Jan 6th hearings.
“Well”, you might say, “we had a reason and a responsibility to hold those hearings and this is so much b.s.”. Yes, this is the point of why the right needs Hunter in the zeitgeist, to give their upcoming distractive hearings some wisp of credence. Welcome to a preview of the next two years with a GOP controlled House.
December 4, 2022 at 10:09 am
realitymonger
…”treating it like a “nothingburger” (Musk’s term) and even the NY Post is referring to the dump as “a dud.”…
I think you summed it up there.
The specific story is meaningless, but I think that it brings up larger questions of tech power, which is bound to be an ongoing discussion in the future, so it seems like a bigger story than it really is to some people.
Hunter Biden is most likely a f@ck-up. And he may have tried to use his father’s power for his own gain. Many presidents have had derelict children. Not a story.
December 4, 2022 at 10:11 am
realitymonger
Also, let’s be honest here. Any reporter would jump at the chance to break any story about Elon Musk. Especially in today’s click-for-profit media environment.
Putting down Taibi for releasing information is reactionary and spits in the face of journalistic freedom.
December 4, 2022 at 11:20 am
bolithio
Its mere spectacle. It also distracts from the fact that anti-imperialist, anti-capitalist, and other actual left content is routinely nerphed on all the major platforms. Google, youtube, FB and twitter etc etc demonetize and down-rank this type of content. Allot of content is 4, 5 pages deep, or only is found with a specific type of search.
Read through this thread:
Remember this when ever you hear right wing people cry about content moderation. Also, dont fool yourself into thinking that the state apparatus is not working lock-step with big tech. Its not about topical politics. Its about serving and protecting capitol and imperialism.
I find this a much more serious and worrysome problem than the firework-show distractions the media is peddling. Here is a link to the video that earned JT the knock by state department goons to harass and intimidate him:
December 4, 2022 at 12:33 pm
Jon Yalcinkaya
They know how to play the refs (remember the “liberal media shtick?), and when that fails, they just buy the entire platform.
The good news, the disinformation industry acts as an unemployment program for losing Trumpist Republicans.
December 4, 2022 at 12:56 pm
Jon Yalcinkaya
Also, let’s be honest here. Any reporter would jump at the chance to break any story about Elon Musk. Especially in today’s click-for-profit media environment.
Putting down Taibi for releasing information is reactionary and spits in the face of journalistic freedom.
What you are missing RM is this isn’t *about* Musk, the story was provided to Taibbi *from* Musk. No reporter or journalist worth his or her salt would go near it as they would understand themselves to be pawns in this right wing nothing burger.
In other words Taibbi’s role here isn’t to shed light or investigate anything, the story is already known, Taibbi acts as a rube so next week conservative blow hards can revisit this story for the umpteenth time and this time include Taibbi’s name while adding “who is no conservative this weekend broke that…”.
December 4, 2022 at 5:40 pm
Mitch
bolithio’s 11:20 link to JT Chapman is, to my knowledge, both accurate and excellent. I recall being taught much of the material from the 50s and 60s during college in the 70s, and the video accurately presents information made public by the mid-70s Church committee.
A few things.
First, I find it hard to believe that it would have earned anyone a visit from DHS. If bolithio has more to offer on that subject, FWIW, I’d be interested.
Second, the result of much of this information being disclosed was that the American public turned its backs on those who exposed it and instead elected Reagan. I wish that this video were required in high school history classes, but the American public appears to hate the idea of being presented with the truth, and that is the sad truth. Except for those who have joined intentional tax-avoidance communities, we are participants not stooges.
Third, not one bit of this speaks to the current Russia Ukraine conflict, where a different capitalist kleptocracy than ours has gone in militarily and attempted to absorb a neighbor, and in which the US and NATO have provided military and other aid to the neighbor. That conflict is real, and when we weigh the desirability and undesirability of having an agency to bully and torture others, it does not help in the weighing to ignore that conflict, and the idea that if the United States did not behave as it behaves, the result might be more dystopian than utopian.
December 4, 2022 at 6:02 pm
Mitch
I understand how desirable it is to feel that one is the cavalry coming to save the maiden in distress. Or, at least, to feel that the cavalry must be on its way to make things right. Unfortunately, for the most part, when the cavalry appears it just shoots the rightful owners.
I actually stood in front of the courthouse dressed up like that torture victim, as part of a group that, I guess, was properly embarrassed that America was fine with torture. But America is fine with torture, and with starvation, and with colonialism. It means cheap clothing among other things. It’s who we are.
If you think it can be fought, I can imagine few things more just than fighting it. But to fight it, you have to know what you’re fighting, and it’s not just George W. Bush and his parents; it’s the largest portion of the people around you, fat and happy and actively hoping to maintain plausible deniability. Win a fight against that and you’ll have won something to be proud of, until a would-be dictator knocks down your attempted utopia, constructs a gulag, puts you in it, and wins the cheers of his people.
December 4, 2022 at 8:20 pm
bolithio
Mitch, I listed to an interview with JT. They came to his house and have him the old intimidate/harass visit. No charges obviously. He later tried to get paperwork on the incident and was stonewalled. He FOIA a request and learned they had a several hundred page file on him, but came up with a ridiculous excuse to not provide it, or rather told him it would take 5 years for them to review and make copies.
I have to ask, after watching the video, knowing what you know, is it really that hard for you to believe that DHS would not harass a popular content creator pumping out leftist agitprop?
Mitch, in reference your 5:40 third bullet. Reread that. Then please remind yourself of what you just said should be taught in schools about our history. You basically are saying, hey look, there are other imperialisms in the world (putin etc), if not for our willingness to do war crimes, just think of what people would do to us. At least we are ‘safe’. Thats what Im reading. Am I miss reading you?
“”the idea that if the United States did not behave as it behaves, the result might be more dystopian than utopian.””
I just dont even know what to do with this statement. I can tell you, I hold the polar opposite viewpoint.
December 5, 2022 at 6:48 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
We have (one of) the most defensible countries in the world yet we spend nearly 10x what others do on defense. Even a Republican President, one of our nation’s greatest military leaders warned us about the danger of the enormous standing Army that was largely kept in place post WW II.
Ironically, the one bit in the Constitution that addresses this is and suggests some organized militias could hang on to their muskets as there was no provision for a standing army is also used to prevent our government from banning guns.
Finally, add in our mass incarceration state that both parties were tripping over themselves to grant even more funds because of a narrative that somehow we are not safe.
Violence sells in our society and we ask our politicians to tell us we are not safe and need protecting, if this is questioned within the party that should question it that populist faction is quickly dismissed.
Some thoughts:
A) Republican’s agenda favors military spending, hard vs soft diplomacy, America First, fight over there so we don’t have to fight over here, and no gun control other than investigating gun buyers.
B) The military is a tool, imo, and we’ve spent the money, where we can we we can and should use it to help naked and unwarranted aggression based on a power imbalance, if asked. Ukraine Bosnia come to mind as do Libya and Syria and if I’m honest, Kuwait too. But there are limits, even with all our spending such as doing anything to protect Uighurs from genocide and our own limits of caring such as the Rwandan genocide.
C) Democrats, in an effort to win around half of the elections, are afraid to really flip the script as we need to if we really want to divest in our military spending not to mention divesting from our prison-industrial complex. BTW, the clear injustice of the latter is a great & righteous way to make inroads on an others\wise largely conservative Democratic Party in states like SC and GA with large African American populations.
D) Leftists interested in non-revolution solutions should know better than to entertain hopeless or stridently anti-American rhetoric without offering hope or a path to a clear solution. Hatred of America is what the Reagans, Trumps and even Bush’s, McCains and Romney’s of the world use to win elections and usher in more of the same. (Arguably, at least in the violence of foreign policy, Trump was a partisl exception which was probably integral to his right-wing populist appeal.)
December 5, 2022 at 6:51 am
Mitch
Thanks for the additional information, bolithio. The reason I am doubtful that this episode triggered a DHS visit is that I don’t think it said anything that hasn’t already been said in a 60 Minutes segment on network television. I don’t doubt that he was visited by the DHS, but I do doubt that it was due to this video. And I don’t think this information is unavailable to the American public, it’s just largely ignored or approved of.
As for the rest, I’ve said what I can say about as well as I can say it, and I do not believe I am pro-war-crimes.
December 5, 2022 at 6:59 am
Mitch
Jon,
You don’t agree with my solutions. Expand the Social Security tax to include corporate profits, remove the cap on income subject to the tax and apply it to all types of income, add a bit of progressivity on the employer side so that it costs employers more to provide salaries greater than one million dollars per year, and redistribute the result equally among the population without any worthiness tests.
Until that’s done, the US has a regressive or flat tax system that is called progressive due only to labeling.
December 5, 2022 at 10:29 am
bolithio
Jon, “We have (one of) the most defensible countries in the world yet we spend nearly 10x what others do on defense.”
More irony. Is it double-speak to call our country defensible? Sure seems like this is offensive spending. And the USA is the most offensive country.
December 6, 2022 at 6:25 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
I agree that it’s offensive spending b. We are clearly projecting military strength for strategic “America First” reasons like keeping shipping lanes open, influencing the governments choices of smaller nations, protecting the interests of large multinational companies, etc. Assuming for a moment that the red scare was more reality than fiction, outside of course of the very real nuclear threat, why didn’t the collapse in the Soviet Union result in a proportional collapse in our military spending?
That all should change but clearly the party that should be making the case for it isn’t and it depends on eclectic populist Republicans to give us permission.
But in the end, the reason for any military spending, the “good governing” aspect of a military is defense. I’m happy to participate in, fund and support a national defense, in fact it is without a doubt the first and most important function of a government as, sadly, Ukrainians understand all too well right now.
Imo, a national defense would cost about 1/10 of our current military to get in line with the rest of the globe.
December 6, 2022 at 6:46 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
I deleted a post Mitch. I got roped in. We have a perfectly good discussion on UBI going (the last, almost hidden bit of your comment – “worthiness tests”). Currently the discussion is about particulars. Didn’t I read something about a local UBI pilot project? If I did I could likely refer to that critique I wrote about the Stockton pilot program you brought up. That’s where the conversation stopped. It seems you thought my critique was disingenuous or wrong-headed or something.
December 6, 2022 at 7:16 am
Mitch
Jon,
You pointed out, IIRC, that a UBI would be very expensive in terms of money collected and redistributed. I neglected to agree. But it would be. I feel that it would more than pay back its costs. I need not point you to various experiments, they are easy to find.
The point of using UBI as a tool, rather than a web of means-tested services and payments, is it has the potential to unite the 95% (or 99%) rather than divide us. It is far from a solution to all our ills, but since dollars are votes in a capitalist system, it redirects investment and attention to serving the needs of the vast majority.
It also becomes a statement, like Social Security, of what we value. It will be attacked by a part of the billionaire class, which thinks it is entitled to keep all gains from automation and outsourcing (not to mention the clearly violence-based exploitation that bolithio’s video accurately documents.) Like a union movement that would not pit industry against industry, but instead invite all workers to unite, I think it would begin to turn the country back towards acting from the better instincts that I know everyone has, but that are buried at the moment under fear and greed.
December 6, 2022 at 7:32 am
Mitch
And it would accomplish that by pruning back the vast wealth of the top kleptocrats, wealth that (as you can see in the 2012 video I’ve posted several times) most Americans don’t even understand exists. So even a losing campaign for UBI would highlight the degree to which income and wealth inequality have risen to levels dangerous for democracy.
So if the goal is to reduce or eliminate poverty with a minimum of infighting and minimal actual, material pain, UBI works. (Yes, there’d be psychic pain amongst the billionaire class as numbers went down on various documents that seem to control their lives.) If your goal is to have a huge government controlling things — based on a belief that the poor will spend money on the wrong things unless the government steps in — it’s a terrible idea.
December 7, 2022 at 6:54 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
Mitch, I don’t have the time this morning so just two quick points.
a) I think you are probably right in my major critique and take away from reviewing the Stockton program. The other would be that all of these pilot programs are useless as tests because they provide the benefits but don’t and can’t address the costs as they are not truly universal and themselves must be means tested.
b) rather than a web of means-tested services and payments, is it has the potential to unite the 95% (or 99%) rather than divide us.
You are basing what would surely be the most expensive program US history on two fallacies, one is of course the one we have written tens or hundreds of pages on disagreeing with one another, Reagan’s government *is* the problem, but the other is this notion that this program would unite people. I think you’ve confused what the left-wing friends of your youth thought with the American people generally. Americans don’t hate the rich and they don’t want free money, unless of course they need it. What we want, at least as far as I can tell, is a fair chance at life throughout our entire lifetimes.
Through the majority of our lives that would mean time spent working. If you don’t believe me Mitch of course we have a real-time example in Andrew Yang. His principle platform idea was UBI which got him a modicum of success in the *national* Democratic primary but in the NYC mayor’s race he saw that otherwise he didn’t have much pull or sway in the Democratic Party. He then went back to the national well to sell a book and DemExit as a UBI guy, but even then, to attract independents and Republicans it seems that UBI will not be a major platform in the Forward Party.
In sum, it’s not just that UBI is expensive and undoable, a utopia when you so frequently use that concept to criticize democratic socialist, more importantly it’s that in selling this unobtainable goal with highly dubious merit you are also feeding the right wing narrative that govern can’t work to redistribute wealth do we need to spend 10 times the money to give money to everyone.
In short the net result of this politics is to support the most influential right wing narrative and thus, in the end center-conservative candidates. I think ultimately this is what most Democrats get which is why, thankfully, we never take the UBI bait when it’s offered. It’s not a conspiracy, it’s not that UBI needs more and better marketing, it’s just politically unpopular and, imo, unpopular b/c Americans understand in their guts that it’s horrible policy.
December 7, 2022 at 7:55 am
Mitch
> Americans don’t hate the rich and they don’t want free money…
Americans have no idea of the degree to which income and wealth inequality have converted capitalism from something that has a moral basis to something that is only the basis for kleptocracy. You can have variation in wealth and income without having the country’s decisions entirely made by the wealthiest one percent, due to their extreme wealth. The idea that redistribution is based on hating the rich is itself a right-wing lie.
As for free money, I agree, most people want to feel they’ve contributed in some way in return for their “compensation.” But most people, if they understood how much of their work effort did not actually contribute to society but only contributed to either the wealth of the one percent or the transfer of wealth within the one percent, would realize they are being robbed under the rules of the current system, as interpreted.
IMO, well-regulated capitalism can be compatible with democracy. What capitalism has morphed into is not.
But I thank you for mentioning “Reagan government.” Yes, that is what I think we now have, not democracy in any meaningful sense, but a bizarre system in which people are manipulated by campaigns into voting for their own impoverishment.
December 7, 2022 at 4:08 pm
Just Watchin
I guess she didn’t hear about him moving Tesla’s headquarters from California to Texas……
https://www.foxnews.com/media/elon-musk-fumes-san-francisco-mayor-city-opens-investigation-twitter-headquarters
December 8, 2022 at 10:09 am
bolithio
Help me out. What is the moral basis of capitalism?
December 8, 2022 at 10:36 am
Mitch
The moral basis of capitalism?
Imagine a pre-capitalist society where everyone has equal wealth. Introduce the following:
In order to increase the efficiency with which something is created, you need to have people who save rather than consume. The savers can then create efficient arrangements for workers, who voluntarily give up their own inefficient production methods to use the more efficient methods that can be created with the savings. The resulting additional wealth is held by the capitalist who installed the efficient solution, and who has to pay the laborer more than they would have earned working on their own, inefficiently. For example, a person buys a “steam shovel,” which multiplies the efficiency of a ditch digger by ten times. The capitalist hires a worker to operate the steam shovel, pays them what they would have made digging ditches without the shovel plus enough more that it is in their interest to put themselves under the capitalist’s business rather than their own, and keeps the rest.
This additional wealth is then passed on to the capitalist’s desired heirs. Because no one has been harmed and everyone is better off, that additional wealth rightfully belongs to the capitalist and they get to say to whom it should go.
Unfortunately, now the heirs have wealth they didn’t earn directly. That means they can afford to invest to create more efficiencies, while others cannot. So the system breaks down without redistribution of wealth.
December 8, 2022 at 10:42 am
Mitch
There will always be people who prefer consumption to savings and investment. Capitalism rewards those who defer immediate consumption in favor of savings and investment, which is extremely important to a resilient society. Everyone, if starting from equal wealth, has equal ability to defer consumption, and so everyone has the opportunity to invest.
December 8, 2022 at 12:11 pm
Mitch
The socialist approach is that when the steam shovel is invented, society gets together and taxes everyone to buy steam shovels, then the workers use it and are able to produce more efficiently. But now everyone has been taxed, even those who didn’t want to invest in steam shovels. And the advantage of saving up for a steam shovel is lost, in that society provides “free” steam shovels.
We can see this in action today with public transit systems right here. The farebox only pays a small portion of the cost of the bus, meaning that no matter how inefficiently run the transit system is, no private entity can compete with it, because the private entity would not be subsidized in the way the public transit system is subsidized. So forget jitney transportation, a mode that might be suitable, unless you can convince either the transit agency or the BoS that they should extend public transit subsidies equally to private companies which have better approaches to transportation than the public agencies. And no one in the public agency will be rewarded for finding new modes of transportation, so they don’t really give a shit, for the most part.
The socialist response, generally, is “of course they will care.” I’ve never seen it happen. It’s when people can make a lot of money by introducing something new that they take risks. Public agencies reward being a quiet cog in the system, and absolutely abhor innovation.
December 8, 2022 at 12:20 pm
Mitch
And that, in a nutshell, is why I favor tightly regulated capitalism that favors individuals and smaller businesses over large corporations, that closely monitors enterprises and penalizes them for abusing external resources, and which is paired with efforts to regularly redistribute wealth back down, so that everyone gets a nearly equal playing field every generation.
December 8, 2022 at 3:32 pm
bolithio
Mitch, Im having trouble following your logic. But I guess somehow people making profits off of other peoples work, because they inherited the wealth of their ancestors who made their money by exploiting surplus value from others increasing efficiencies, is better because they are not taxed (as much?) by society for the collective good (things they dont want?). Also, privatizing everything, like transportation, health care, heck even social security, its going to be better because capitalists will take risks and innovate new ways to make money, ah-hem, I mean, help people. Strong moral foundations here.
And the alternatives, such as collective ownership of the means of production, democracy in the work place, de-commoditization of housing, health care, and other basic human necessities, these concepts are morally reprehensible. A planned economy just might prevent the wealthy from exploiting the boom bust economic crisis capitalist economies create every few years. It just wouldn’t be ethical to consider such things, or aim towards a sustainable economy that isnt striving for endless growth. That would be truly awful.
And if we did live in a society like that, I mean, innovation would cease to exist, because we all know that good ideas and talented people – the Einstein’s, Mozart’s, all the way back to Newton – their primary motivation was always money.
Most people think socialism is impossible. The end of the world is easier to imagine. After nearly a century of anti-communist propaganda its not hard to see why. What I do think is wild, is how people at the same time believe in that a well regulated capitalist society is a thing. Its never happened and crucially, never been impeded from developing. That is, nothing has stood int he way of this unicorn taking the stage. In contrast to the reality that every single socialist project has been attacked with the full might of the West.
Why is it that socialism, this economic system that is so doomed to fail and weak by its nature, that our government is so paranoid and afraid of it that they are willing to invade, overthrow, coup, assassinate and slaughter millions of people in the process, just to make sure that, … what? If some poor Latin American country wants this system, why does the USA care so much?
The answer my friend, is the inherit moral basis of capitalism.
December 8, 2022 at 3:42 pm
Mitch
It’s not very complex logic, regardless of level of snark applied.
December 8, 2022 at 4:20 pm
Mitch
I’ll frame things in different terms. Would you rather make $20 per hour digging ditches, or would you prefer to make $30 per hour as Eric’s employee using a ditch digging machine he invested in (capital equipment Eric capitalized)?
You could save up for your own ditch digging machine, and make even more. Or, better, you could — under today’s system — join with others in a cooperative and pool your resources to buy and share a ditch digging machine, and earn $40 per hour along with your fellows in the ditch coop.
Or you could hope someone donates a ditch digging machine, and complain that no one ever does that, even though it’s the right thing to do.
Or you could fight to change the system to one that takes other people’s money to buy your ditch digging machine for you.
You asked for the moral basis of capitalism and I’ve now provided it, twice. I’m not defending things as they exist today, where the playing field is anything but fair. I’m just explaining that there is a perfectly reasonable and understandable moral foundation for capitalism growing from a society where all members of the society start with equal wealth, answering the question you asked. You’ve responded with what I’d consider, basically, nothing. That’s your right, but it doesn’t impress me at all.
December 8, 2022 at 4:20 pm
Anonymous
Countries like Sweden, Norway and Denmark seem like examples of (pretty) well-regulated capitalist countries.
Of course, folks like Bernie often point to these countries as examples of the kind of “socialism” they favor, so I’m not sure those folks would necessarily identify them as examples of well-regulated capitalism, but rather as successful examples of “democratic socialism.”
(And right-wingers, of course, also call them “socialist.”)
But depending on what label you prefer to hang on them, they seem like either examples of “well-regulated capitalism” that do exist in the world, OR as examples of (at least partially) “socialist” countries that have not been “attacked with the full might of the West.”
December 8, 2022 at 4:24 pm
Mitch
Yes, PA, labels suck.
December 9, 2022 at 6:37 am
Jon Yalcinkaya
Especially labels like “neoliberal” especially when making the case more a freer market, which UBI would epitomize. It’s not a coincidence that the moral basis of capitalism must come up in a discussion of UBI.
Imo, capitalism, or a free market, is a tool with a place and a function, as is socialism, or a government operated or controlled institution or even sector of the economy. Our modern economy should have both; UBI, ultimately, seeks to reduce the power and influence of government in favor of the free market.
December 9, 2022 at 6:44 am
Just Watchin
What you’re “missing” Eric is that there is more to the “dump” than just dick pics, and there is far more to come. But you already knew that….
December 9, 2022 at 9:28 am
Just Watchin
Schiffty gettin caught again…..
December 9, 2022 at 10:08 am
Anonymous
Just Trollin’ says there’s more nothing in that nothingburger, and even more nothingburgers to come!
Just like that Inspector General report and the Durham investigation and the endless claims of “irrefutable
evidence of massive voter fraud,” all of which the right wing hyped endlessl, and all of which came up empty.
There’s a pretty clear pattern by now: The more they’re hyping, the less (if anything) is there.
December 9, 2022 at 12:00 pm
Just Watchin
looks like this fruitcake has a fetish for luggage…..
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/biden-s-genderfluid-nuclear-waste-official-charged-again-with-stealing-someone-s-luggage/ar-AA155SVp?rc=1&ocid=winp1taskbar&cvid=42dd7121231b4246b19248d71b9ac395
December 11, 2022 at 6:50 pm
Eric Kirk
To answer a question asked somewhere around here – this is what Zelensky thinks of Biden.
https://thehill.com/policy/international/3771195-zelensky-thanks-biden-for-unprecedented-support-in-latest-call/
December 12, 2022 at 5:04 am
Just Watchin
What else would he say about his personal piggy bank?