On the Middle East in general, and what he argues is the deep threat of Islamism. 7:00 to 8:00. Call-ins welcom.
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18 comments
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December 27, 2012 at 5:15 pm
grackle
I’m really sorry that you are (again) giving this ignorant bigot a platform.
December 28, 2012 at 8:17 am
Mitch
Mr. Stunich’s perspective becomes clear when you read his book reviews on Amazon, particularly his review of “The End of America.” How anyone could complain about the violence of one fundamentalism while immersing himself in another that has brought us 2,000 years of violence is beyond me.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A35X24QDAQBNHB/ref=cr_cm_rdp_pdp_see_all?ie=UTF8&sort_by=MostRecentReview
December 28, 2012 at 11:30 am
HUUFC
Ah yes, an intolerant post about a uncomfortable subject.Must be a liberal.
December 28, 2012 at 3:11 pm
bolithio
I see all fundamentalist religions as a deep threat to mankind.
December 29, 2012 at 4:43 pm
Andy Stunich
You say that you see all fundamentalist religions as a threat to mankind. How can Jesus’ commands to love your neighbor as yourself and to do unto others as you would have them do to you be a deep threat to mankind? Is it somehow lost on you that secular atheist government in the 20th century directly and indirectly caused the slaughter of hundreds of millions of people?
December 29, 2012 at 7:13 pm
Anonymous
The danger, Mr. Stunich, is not in the commands themselves. They are beside the point. The danger is in the group identification of self-designations such as “saved” or “chosen” which set you apart from the rest. The moral certainty which inevitably breeds a sense of superiority, and a righteousness which breeds totalitarianism and violence. It is the secularization of society which keeps them in check, or I have no doubt that every physician who has performed abortions would be hanged publicly.
December 29, 2012 at 8:16 pm
Mitch
I’d be curious to hear Mr. Stunich’s response to the points made here:
http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/04/jesus-loves-his-enemies-and-then-kills-them-all/
December 29, 2012 at 9:08 pm
Andy Stunich
I certainly will if Eric wants to have a show on the topic.
December 29, 2012 at 9:31 pm
Eric Kirk
I think the argument Mitch, would be that while the imagery of Jesus’ return is violent, it doesn’t call for any violence from his followers in the meantime – until Jesus actually shows up in person to give the orders.
And the sword was a metaphor for the truth, which would divide families, etc.
But is the imagery conducive to peacemaking? I leave that to the people of the faith to work it out. Robert McSorley’s “The New Testament Basis for Peacemaking” made a very convincing case for Christian pacifism, using scripture – arguing that the OT passages apply to a bygone time in which a small tribe living in a desert and constantly set upon by larger enemies needed a harsh doctrine to survive.
What Andy argued on the radio is that Christianity has the NT as mitigation for the old warrior passages, and so Christian violence does not find scriptural justification in light of the changes of approach to the OT as any kind of manifesto. Because Islam only has the harsh passages of the Quran to rely on, with no mitigating subsequent scripture, the doctrine is of necessity violent.
Two responses, but we were having technical difficulties which made it difficult to discuss anything coherently, were that Judaism also has no mitigating scripture, except for the Talmud, but that also has its harsh elements. The second is that I feel that Andy puts scripture paramount in his own faith and assumes that most Muslims do as well. But there have always been three elements to any faith, or doctrine for that matter. You have the text the faith or doctrine relies upon. You have the institution which takes upon itself the power and right to interpret the text. And you have extra-textual tradition. The fundamentalist expression of any faith or doctrine focuses almost exclusively on the text, or claims to, even though there is strong argument that a given fundamentalist interpretation is dictated more by tradition than any clear reading of the text. However, it’s my contention that most of any faith or doctrine operate primarily upon tradition – and the longer the traditions persist, even as altered over time, the more stable the society is, and so the more likely that scripture or other aspects of doctrine are going to be interpreted with stability and social function in mind. And therefor, the vast majority of Muslims are not fundamentalists, and not governed by the literal interpretation of the text as motive for action.
Fundamentalism is certainly a powerful force, because it tends to be the most intense manifestation of the faith – excepting perhaps direct religious experience (or the perception thereof). But it does not define the faith. It is one aspect. Millions of Muslims can’t even read, so how can scripture be such a governing force on all those individuals?
I see fundamentalism as a threat, but not in terms of converting the whole Middle East to the fundamentalist doctrine. There are other forces at work, and they are in conflict. Egypt is a front line of that conflict. I don’t want to sound like Karl Rove on election night, but I think it’s way too early to call it in Egypt, or most of the rest of the Middle East.
December 30, 2012 at 8:16 am
Mitch
“Andy puts scripture paramount in his own faith”
OK. Matthew 7:1-5.
And, to assist in its implementation: http://www.religioustolerance.org/isl_hadiq.htm
(I do not believe in Yahweh or other human-styled gods. I do not believe that Jesus was God’s special son, or that Muhammed was his special prophet. But I believe each religion that has survived scores of generations has wisdom to offer, if it can only be recovered from those who abuse religion.)
December 30, 2012 at 10:22 am
bolithio
Andy said: You say that you see all fundamentalist religions as a threat to mankind. How can Jesus’ commands to love your neighbor as yourself and to do unto others as you would have them do to you be a deep threat to mankind? Is it somehow lost on you that secular atheist government in the 20th century directly and indirectly caused the slaughter of hundreds of millions of people?
First, what Jesus theoretically said doesn’t seem to matter to fundamentalist Christians who have been led to believe that this world is temporary and their actions here only matter to appease the eventual judgement of god. This belief system is what allows them to justify an existence which spoils the environment, causes genocide of savage cultures, puts material gain and the accumulation of wealth as major goals, protest the funerals of gays, bomb abortion clinics, etc… even though the teachings of Jesus apparently shun such practices and lifestyles. Not to mention the erosion of science, which robs society of cultural innovations.
I am not talking about people who have faith in god and follow jesus teachings. I am talking about fundamentalist versions of these faiths, religions – which are institutions, not a happy hippie belief system that everyone claims Christianity is. Mega churches telling you who to vote for is not what jesus had in mind. Erics last two paragraphs above at 930 are in-line with what I am saying here.
—
Second, it is crazy (and incorrect) to suggest that our so-called secular government, and its role in slaughter, is because it is atheist. Our government isn’t atheist, it is supposed to be free from, and tolerant of, all religious beliefs -including atheism. I also take offense to the notion that atheism doesn’t have morals or ethics. As if our moral compass is attained only from gods.
Regardless of the fact that our country allows freedom of religion – the rulers of this county have been 99.9% Christian. Atheism did not destroy the millions and millions of indigenous Americans. Christian manifest destiny did.
Power, more than any written doctrine that justifies violence, is what I see as a deep threat to man. The willingness to cling to quitoxic beliefs even when they have been proven otherwise is a primary symptom of fundamental religions. They prey on the weak and vulnerable, from the obese jelly-brain in Iowa to the 14 year old suicide bomber in Gaza. Meanwhile the leaders of these institutions bask in the delicious waves of power.
December 30, 2012 at 10:28 am
bolithio
Naming Rights…
I have shared this before, please watch it this time. Its only ten minutes and it illustrates – much more eloquently than I can – how fundamentalism can lead to bad things in a society.
December 30, 2012 at 10:49 am
moviedad
Ya’ know, “Yahweh, Mazda, Baal” are all primitive “gods” of war. Priests and kings associated with those “gods” encouraged slaughter and genocide. By the time the Nazarene came along, Judea had been so beaten and subjugated that the old notion of “god” leading the army and participating in the killing of women and children had worn thin. Many Jews began to identify with the Psalms and the notion of forgiveness. They turned away from the archaic notions of death and slaughter. That is, some did. While some did not, I’m thinking of Zealots then, and Zionists now.
Lots of X-tians still identify with the “gods” of war. Westboro in Florida is a good example. Whenever you hear X-tians talking about punishment and retribution, or good ol’ redemptive violence; you can be sure they are identifying themselves with the “gods” or war, and not with the prophets of peace.
As far as Islam is concerned, all any westerner seems to know about it is contained in Montgomery Watt’s biography of Mohammed. I work with some educated Pakistani folks, who all seem to go ballistic when you reference Watt’s book.
This kind of subject is what’s great about this blog. None of the other local blogs take on this kind of stuff. It’s a good idea also, since everyone has an opinion about it, it usually means a lot commentary.
Mitch, I checked out the “Loon” site, and I wish I hadn’t. I’m probably in “Homeland Security’s” data base now. Of course, I might already be in there since my post condemning the United State’s murder of Bin Laden. If in fact he actually was killed. They sure are expending a lot of energy to make everyone believe it went down just as they said. But just like most of the big stories of the last twenty years, there are some huge, glaring inconsistencies.
Sorry to go off topic…
December 30, 2012 at 11:05 am
Mitch
“I’m probably in “Homeland Security’s” data base now.”
Say it with some pride.
December 30, 2012 at 11:08 am
moviedad
So I’m cruising the ‘Ranting-Ravers’ and some god-fearing X-tian posted what I think is a good example of what most X-tians believe about the Bible. Thought it might add to the conversation.
Here it is:
“Jehovah God is not hatefull, spiteful or tortorous. He is a God of love. If people believe in the bible that was penned by man as much as a secratary pens a letter for her boss, does that make it written by her ? If you read Bible prophecy I think people would think differently. the bible has proven itself over and over to fortell events that man would have no knowledge of. The Bible contains information not provided anywhere else. How to deal and cope with all our life problems. The bible written over a 1600 year span also happens to be scientifically accurate.Also contaianing historical accuracy and its accounts are specific down to dates and names of people. If people want todisregard the bible as mans word you are throwing away your opportunity to learn about our creator and see how loving and caring he is. He doesnt hate gay people at all he see’s each of us as worthy individuals who he wants. people shouldnt blame God for any of he badness and suffering going on we should blame the real culprit and ruler of this world satan. The Bible explains why this is all happening and when it will end. Why he is allowing all this suffering.Its important that all this happens, a great question was brought up there in the garden of eden. People should read the Bible and actually find out what its all about. Blind faith isnt faith. You need to actually believe something is there to actually have any hope of having him actually be there for you. How can you expect to get close with someone you doub even exists?”
(Redding Craigslist)
January 4, 2013 at 12:55 am
moviedad
Oops, I didn’t mean to kill your thread. Sorry.
January 5, 2013 at 1:20 am
Anonymous
the fact is there are all kinds of religions on the face of the earth. and some of them try to demonize the others. these demonizers justify going to war, suicide bombings, terroist attacks all in the name of god, jesus, or jack in the box. whatever floats their taco. i’m related to a lot of these people. some of them have banned me from their blog because they can’t handle the truth. its all about fear and loathing in america or not. slavers and non slavers. fear mongers and warriors of the heart. every breath i take is full of love for you and all sentinent beings. no matter how stupid and pig headed you are.
January 19, 2013 at 2:30 am
Dora Guerra
Thou hast given Thine only-begotten Son as a ransom for us, and through the mystical communion of Thy Spirit hast made us share in Thine own divinity; forgive, we pray, the multitude of our sins in the far greater multitude of Thy mercies. O Thou Who washed away the sins of humanity through the Cross and the Blood of Thy Son, restore the world of nature, which has been grievously disturbed into an unnatural state because of the unruliness and disorderliness of our lawless and corrupt behavior, and bring it back to its natural harmony and order: make the great ocean return to its usual calmness, and bring to end the tempest and the disturbance of the elements that threaten us. Order the winds to blow once more with gentleness and moderation: rebuke the raging of the sea and the unnatural violence of the gales; let the Spirit of the storm be stilled and the tempest return to tranquility, that those who cross the sea in boats and work on the many waters may again see Thy deeds and wonders. Set them in order, O Master, Lover of mankind, through Thine unapproachable love for mankind, Thou Who didst deign to allow Thine only-begotten Son and our Lord Jesus Christ, through Thy good will and the cooperation of Thy Holy Spirit, to become man and sail together with His holy disciples and apostles, and rebuke the stormy winds, and command the waves of the sea to be still.