Somebody reviewing one of Michael Moore’s movies once commented that while Moore’s ability to drive entire audiences to a standing ovation is a notable feat, a film maker who is a true artist ought to prefer that his/her film has audiences arguing in the aisles as the credits roll. I thought it was a good point, but I was hard-pressed to come up with a documentary film which could accomplish just that. And then, recently the recommendations robot at Netflix directed me to a documentary film entitled Arguing the World. In terms of stimulating thought and argument about the larger political issues, I can think of no more effective documentary film.
The film focuses on four dynamic figures of a group which became known as the New York Intellectuals, characterized primarily by Jewish ethnicity, radicalism in youth tempered by anti-Stalinism, cultural critique in middle age, and anywhere but anywhere in old age. The four are Irving Howe, Irving Kristol, Nathan Glazer, and Daniel Bell. They were all raised in poverty in Jewish ghettos in New York City. They met at City College of New York during the 1930s. City College became known as the “Jewish Harvard,” because of the prominence of working class children of Jewish immigrants who would ditch poverty as adult career intellectuals. As legend has it, the professors themselves were mediocre, but the students would read and learn through arguing with each other. The dining hall contained various horseshoe shaped alcoves, and each one was claimed by some sort of clique (jocks, Catholics, etc.). As it happens Alcove One was perennially occupied by anti-Stalinist socialists, either Trotskyist or Second International variety (the SWP and SP actually merged for awhile, weird as that sounds to modern students of sectarian politics), while Alcove Two was occupied by the Communist Party activists and their fellow travelers. Often there were arguments and even altercations between the two, but more often each group kept to itself. The Alcove One denizens infused literature readings into their politics, lacing their Marxist analysis with smatterings of Dostoevsky, Proust, T.S. Lewis, the Bronte sisters, etc., and moved beyond even the Frankfurt School of Marxism in the blending of cultural criticism with politics. The subculture was also characterized by intense arguments, sometimes stimulated by alcohol consumption (a darker aspect of the old left which is known to the families but not often discussed even in the narrative histories).
These four began as Trotskyists, which leads me to my favorite quote in the film (I’m not quite remembering who said it): “We didn’t know he [Trotsky] was right. We only knew he was interesting. And in the Village then, to be interesting was to be right. Certainly to be uninteresting was to be wrong. And I’m not sure I don’t still hold to that.” I have to admit that I probably hold to that as well, as I frequently find my self disagreeing even when I agree. And Trotsky was a more interesting figure than Stalin, or even Lenin, and certainly more interesting than Norman Thomas (you get to see a rare clip of a Thomas speech in the film), though maybe not quite as interesting as Debs or Shachtman.
As they got older and left CCNY, the four, and others, pooled resources and joined as writers a magazine entitled Partisan Review – intending to be a literary magazine with a political philosophy emphasis. Now the film doesn’t get into the history so much, but Partisan Review actually has roots in the Greenwich Village intellectual milieu, which included John Reed, Max Eastman, and the Masses Crowd, and it may overemphasize a bit the divide between Alcoves One and Two in the broader sense, but perhaps not as it applies to these four individuals.
They were integral to the formation and development of Commentary Magazine, which began as an attempt to integrate Jewish radicalism into American democratic culture with complex cultural criticism, but the magazine ultimately slid into a more straight-jacketed ideological neo-conservatism, and exists now as a shadow of its more intellectually challenging past. But by the time the four were writing for Commentary, all of them, including Howe, had abandoned their CCNY-era radicalism and embraced a more skeptical and pragmatic liberal outlook, which sent them into different directions. The film examines the directions they took and attempts to find answers to the question of why like experiences could leave Irving Howe in the socialist fold (even if most self-proclaimed socialists regarded him as neo-conservative) while pushing Irving Kristol into the the Reagan camp.
When McCarthyism came into full swing, these intellectuals found themselves in a tight spot. They had become anti-communist to the point that they were slamming not only the C.P. itself for its ties and loyalty to the Soviet Union, but also the liberals who downplayed the American communist’s complicity with the mass killings carried out by their more “successful” Soviet counterparts. None of the intellectuals’ was particularly enamored with McCarthy as a matter of style, but while Kristol protests that he referred to McCarthy as a “vulgar demagogue” while implicitly supporting the carnage McCarthyism was wreaking on innocent people and the culture at large, he and other Commentary writers did not object to the underlying witch hunt process which ruined the lives of people who had been guilty of nothing more than attending socialist meetings while in college. At this point, Irving Howe broke away from many of his friends; and while slamming communism and even to some extent defending American culture, he attacked McCarthyism on civil liberties grounds- a frame that the others were unable or unwilling to adopt. Their defensiveness as exhibited in the interviews of the film is remarkable. On the one hand they protest that they did in fact “question” methods being used, but on the other felt that some sort of process was necessary.
Howe and other anti-Stalin socialists started the independent socialist quarterly Dissent (there is a recurring theme in the film that when Intellectuals don’t know what else to do, they start a magazine). The idea was to revisit socialism as a goal or a hope in a non-ideological manner, and outside of the auspices of any particular organization or program, while maintaining critical independence of thought and analysis. Kristol dismissed it as ideologically anachronistic and irrelevant, but by the time he was asked to comment he had already turned to the dark side and it’s unclear whether he was at that point unable to segregate his personal opinions from his political agenda. But the debate raged and an indication of the prominence of the debate in the NY Jewish subculture came a couple of decades later when Woody Allen, either unaware or uncaring that the reference was somewhat obscure on the national level, dropped a line into his acclaimed movie Annie Hall referencing a peace reached between Commentary and Dissent so that they merged to form the magazine Dysentery. Of the millions who have watched the Academy Award winning film over the decades since, probably only a fraction of them understand the reference. But that it made it into the movie is an indication of how strong the debate was in NY Jewish subculture.
The documentary then moves into the 1960s and the contentious relationship between the NY Intellectuals and the New Left. It doesn’t go into the initial discussions where Howe’s protege Michael Harrington attended the Port Huron conference and left with some frustration. The episode is described in some detail in Maurice Isserman’s If I had a Hammer, which is a brilliant summary of the history of the American Left. The film covers mostly the summit talks between Dissent and SDS. Howe and Glazer describe their interactions with upstart activist Tom Hayden, whom they regarded as a potential totalitarian – romantic utopian politics within a good looking guy completely into himself. The Intellectuals were paternalistic and condescending. The New Lefties were charged and emotional. It didn’t go well. There are interviews with New Leftists including Hayden and Todd Gitlin, and you can tell that it’s still a sore point.
(More below the fold)
The film provides a framework – the NY Intellectuals were never known for their social graces in arguing with each other or anyone else. As Diana Trilling noted, “they didn’t know how to behave.” But they were frustrated at the oversimplifications and the refusals of the New Left intellectuals to grasp the dangers of moralistic politics at the expense of self-criticism and, more importantly, critical examination of the opposition to the forces you are opposing. In other words, they saw the New Left embracing Castro and Mao as better alternatives to Stalin, while rejecting anything positive about American culture (except as certain histories of protest might conform to the governing ideology), and became frustrated with canned political responses about “the establishment” and accusations of compromise motivated by vested interest in the system.
Not mentioned in the film is an anecdote (a short version found in his NYT obituary) where he spoke at Stanford (as told by Michael Harrington) and encountered a noisy Maoist group. One of them accused Howe of becoming a lackey for the status quo, and he turned to the student and said (paraphrasing from memory), “I have been a socialist all my life. In ten years I will still be a socialist. You know what you’re going to be? You’re going to be a dentist!”
From the Intellectuals’ perspective, the youngsters were making the same mistakes the Alcove Two folk had made in the 30s. Ironically, two of the four found themselves in critical battlegrounds during the 1960s. Bell became bitter and left Columbia State for Harvard, later joining Kristol at The Public Interest. Glazer had similar experiences at Berkeley when he criticized the Free Speech Movement, and one has to wonder if Dylan’s lyrics were in any way indirectly inspired by this particular conflict.
But here is the power of this documentary. They interviewed just about everybody. They didn’t take sides. And each side had its point of view, neither totally in the right nor totally in the wrong. Both sides were still sore about it decades later. Both sides feel things deeply. Both sides evolved. And at this point, audiences with any depth should have been arguing in the aisles. Except that the film was not over, and the storytelling took a fascinating turn.
The last part of the film covers Kristol’s final slide into what Michael Harrington would coin “neo-conservatism.” Frustrated with the left’s backing of McGovern, he tried to get his fellow Intellectuals to sign onto a NYT ad supporting Nixon. That was too much for Bell, Glazer, the Trillings, and many, but Kristol did get a significant number of signatures, and the movement was started. What characterizes the neo-conservatism of the time (it would later come to have a different meaning) is the birth of what Glazer described as the Bolshevik approach to conservative politics. Buckley, Kirkpatrick, and other conservatives are interviewed in the film, and credit Kristol for developing right wing think tanks and employing conventional left social analysis to apply to advancing the conservative agenda. He is credited as one of the architects of the Reagan and Gingrich revolutions. And when the Cold War ended, Kristol talked up and called for a “war on liberalism.”
This freaked Bell and Glazer out. They had plenty of criticisms of liberalism, but they still considered themselves liberals. Glazer had become very critical of the social welfare system, being directly involved in Moynihan’s findings that the loss of family rather than poverty was the primary issue for African Americans (and feminists have ever since slammed the report as an attack on black women for being too strong and thus driving off their men). But Glazer felt that the welfare system needed reform, not dismantling, and he felt that if Kristol was going to emphasize the moral decline in America that he ought at least raise the issue of corporate morality. Bell had set aside ideology for what Marx called a “rigorous critique of everything existing More importantly, they felt that Kristol had reclaimed his ideological youth trading for a new ideology, and had abandoned his skepticism and critical thinking. But what was especially fascinating to watch was Kristol’s clueless responses to those accusations, betraying filters very typical of a Trotskyist. He had become a true believer, and pursued his agenda with zeal, ignoring the data and facts which would undermine or even merely obscure the agenda. Kirkpatrick, from her point of view, may have continued to see him as an intellectual, but his friends did not.
So what does the Bolshevik approach to conservatism look like? Well, everything from a Marxist is argued in historical context. As Michael Walzer says in the film that you have to understand how these intellectuals view the world, “you can’t begin to analyze, say, the most recent strike in Detroit without starting from the division of labor in ancient Babylonia and working your way up.” It rings true with my experience. One of my first research papers in college was on the Allende Coup in Chile. I found about eight books on topic in the library. About four or five of them were written by Marxists (James Petras, etc.). I think I had three written by liberals and one or two by a conservative. What was interesting is that all of the liberal or conservative books began in 1969, when Allende won his first term election. All four or five of the more radical analysis books began with the colonization of Chile by Spain and worked their way up. Of course, it laid some important context the more conservative books left out, such as the fact that the laws Allende used to seize factories shut down by corporations in protest of his policies were actually passed in the 1920s and not arbitrarily passed by him. It helped to know that Chile had been a three party system for decades and that therefor the conservative criticism that he was elected with only 38 percent of the vote was less compelling when you learned that such numerical results were routine in the country’s political history. But you also learned about the extraction-based economic developments – the country losing its salt-peter monopolies once a German scientist learned how to synthesize it, and a country saved by the ascent of electronic technology because it has one-third of the developed copper reserves. If you study the history, all of these developments become integral to understanding the coup. And so as a freshman in college, I correctly concluded that Marxist historians tend to address political issues with more historical depth. And yet, these were biased histories. They chose the facts which suited their arguments. That didn’t make them wrong about the coup, and I happen to agree with them about the coup. But the conservative intellectual approach, which was to consider primarily the US geo-political considerations in moralizing about the “radical” Allende regime, seemed anemic to me. I imagine that Kristol and others like him, have changed that equation. There are probably many more opportunities for students to come across histories in which facts are laid out to suit a conservative political agenda. A framework, as Walzer puts it, to analyze to answer the “largest questions: where are we going? Where have we been?” It captures the imagination. And thanks in large part to Kristol and others like him, there is a bona fide young conservative movement, even if it’s smaller in numbers than the progressive youth movement. That was a game changer, especially as the progressive youth movement doesn’t really know how to approach the culture war except to alienate just about everyone who doesn’t listen to Democracy Now regularly.
So, in the view of liberal/moderate Bell and Glazer, while Howe had not embarked far enough with them from idealism to skepticism, Kristol had traveled the skeptic road with them and abandoned it for an ideology as pure as the one they had left – perhaps even more so as even in their radical youth they would venture out of the box to see each issue in a new light. Kristol had no use for skepticism in his later life. He had unlocked the secrets of the universe and discovered that what he had been as a young man was the greatest danger to freedom and virtue. And he does not appear to have passed any nuance on to his son William Kristol, a frequent commentator on Fox News whose greatest moment of nuance thus far was to have candidly admitted that the whole “liberal media establishment” meme has been overblown by the right to “play the ref” and ensure coverage more to their liking. Other than that and his vocabulary, there is little to distinguish him from Sean Hannity. Kristol, Sr. was trying to be flippant early in the film, but it might have been stronger to put at the end his comment: “Ever since I can remember, I’ve been a neo-something. A neo-Trotskyist. A neo-liberal. A neo-conservative. A neo-Orthox, even when I was a neo-Trostkyist. I’m going to end up a neo, that’s all: neo dash nothing.”
The film ends with closing thoughts from all of them, including some very interesting comments from Howe shortly before he died. Part of his memorial made it into the final edit of the film.
These four were not young. Only Glazer is alive today. Bell died earlier this year. But the journeys they took intellectually in response to the events of their lives is compelling, and timelessly relevant despite the apparent demise of the subculture. They made an art of political theory, and a livelihood of intellectualism despite very limited academic credentials, and their writings are still with us waiting to hatch a new renaissance of thought, reflection, and critical self-examination of the left. These are people who reversed the Marxist admonition to philosophers, suggesting that before we try to change the world, we ought to learn more about it- and more about ourselves. They won’t make it into the bulk of history books, but they impacted that history in ways in which the film only touched on.
It’s available on instant Netflix, and I strongly recommend it to anyone who thinks about politics (as oppose to those who merely partake in them). I’m ordering the disk because I want to see any outtakes or other special features. I am also looking forward to reading the book, which was actually published after the documentary and no doubt benefited from some intense input.
You can take the Arguing the World interactive quiz to determine your ideology. It turns out that I remain 54.5 percent socialist, and 45.5 percent liberal, but as usual I have some problems with the wording.
The only clip I can find is on youtube.

438 comments
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December 18, 2011 at 2:50 pm
Erasmus
I recommended that you see this film ….. a couple of years ago, I believe. — My admiration of it equals yours.
December 18, 2011 at 3:31 pm
Mitch
I’m 2/3 socialist, 1/4 liberal, and 8.3% conservative, if such dreck is to be believed. Of course, it was agony answering the multiple-choice questions, as half the questions didn’t have ANY choices I liked. So I guess I’m 99% Jewish and 1% stockholder.
December 18, 2011 at 3:34 pm
Eric Kirk
Erasmus – That’s right, you did! I wondered how it got on my list.
It truly is the best political documentary I’ve seen.
Ironically, I think it was also you who referred me to the review of the Michael Moore film.
Mitch – I think most of these tests are silly, and especially any which are only 10 questions long. It just happened to be on the PBS link for the film, so I linked to it for fun.
December 18, 2011 at 4:21 pm
Anonymous
I tested out at 1/3 Socialist, 1/3 Conservative, and 1/3 Liberal. What does that make me, moderate?
I am curious, without a facist option where do the Arcata elitists fit in?
I have the movie on my list and better yet a couple hours free tomorrow. Thanks for the recomendation.
December 18, 2011 at 4:40 pm
Eric Kirk
Well 4:21, I think you’ll like it. I think pretty much anyone of any political outlook who is thoughtful about politics will like it.
December 18, 2011 at 5:58 pm
Anonymous
hmm. i’m a 50/50 liberal socialist. who’d a thought. nice write up,e.
December 18, 2011 at 6:37 pm
Steve
More 2% world’s richest minority group promoting themselves again and again and again. Failed Jewish activism, it could only be of interest to Jewish intellectuals with too much time on their hands, and Jewish publishers and Jewish movie makers out to make some cash, and of course, Jewish wannabes, like Eric here, our local boy. Don’t get me wrong, I’m Jewish, but really do you want to see more of us aggressive social tweakers running around behind the scenes if not in front of the cameras trying to run everything of importance?
Let’s see some history of the Christian Communitarians for example here whose ideas, unlike Jewish “Scientific” Socialism–you gotta chuckle at that Orwellian absurdity–i.e., state Communism, are still very much alive in the self-sufficient cooperative community movement and still very much needed for developing a sustainable world economy.
December 18, 2011 at 6:55 pm
RTC
Isn’t that Robert Bork sitting with Irving Kristol in that clip?
December 18, 2011 at 7:01 pm
Eric Kirk
Yes, I think so.
December 18, 2011 at 7:15 pm
Eric Kirk
Normally I block Steven’s anti-Semitic crap, but I’m letting this one through because I believe it’s instructive in a way that’s on topic. If you watch the film, you’ll understand.
And yeah, Steve’s Jewish. He had a blood test which says so.
December 18, 2011 at 8:18 pm
Steve
Oh, how ever so kind of you, slanderer Eric, the Voice of ADL in SoHum.
Yep, it was a surprise in our family us raised without any knowledge of my mom’s Jewish heredity so we avoided all the Cult indoctrination that turns otherwise ordinary Gentile human beings into Jewish beings, paranoid of and at war, openly or covertly, with the majority of the human race. The aggression coupled with indoctrinated belief in racial superiority propels Jewish activists into conflict with Gentiles wherever they go believing themselves the unique bearers of universal truth and culture from Solomon to Einstein to Bob Zimmerman to Steve Lewis. And we are. Genetically selected over a thousand years, like breeding dogs or horses but with inbreeding you also get the diseases specific to such genetic manipulation and thus the medical diseases specific to us Ashkenazim. All in all, I say chuck it. Chuck the whole deal and join the human race as equals. Those who still want to play “Us” vs “Them” let them do so but the natural trend is intermarriage with Gentiles and the natural ending of “Jewishness” as minority genes do not the majority make. Judaism was a bad deal all around from the get-go and when taken seriously, as the core fundamentalists of every religious cult do, Jews no exception, it is highly dangerous, e.g. Israel, pushing and teetering America on the brink of world war with all Muslims over Jewish hubris and religious narcissism and inherent racism that thinks Jews from any place on earth have more right to Palestine than do Palestinians who have lived in Palestine for generations. I know some of them personally and can vouch for family histories going back generations.
Eric can call me the Jewish Orwellian double-speak, “anti-Semitic” which is absolutely a slanderous lie as anyone who pops over to my blog will see in a second as I support real Semitic peoples and have for years, unlike Eric who cozies up to the persecutors of Semitic peoples, phonies calling themselves “Semitic” when again, anyone can check our Ashkenazim dna and see in a second genetically we are Europeans primarily, that’s why we look European.
But then for all my humanitarian wisdom that wants to see an end to Jewish monopolization of social, financial, cultural power positions in Gentile societies, I’m stuck with this spiritual prophesy stuff..that salvation is of the Jews and it’s still bearing true in my personal spiritual life. But luckily, the Jewish prophesy line seems to have gone native. See what the Jewish Christian prophesy bearer was up to in finishing a 13 year old vision quest along with spiritual brother and sister.
Josephine
There have been several blendings of Christianity with mostly African religions with some parts of Central American Native traditions included in Catholic missionization, but this marks the first time any European religion vision has spontaneously melded with Native American spirituality, two prophetic traditions becoming one.
December 18, 2011 at 8:28 pm
moviedad
I’m a 100% ripped off, pissed off American.
December 18, 2011 at 9:03 pm
Mitch
Thanks for clarifying Steven, Eric.
December 19, 2011 at 5:01 am
Steve
Thanks for showing how it works, Mitch. Jews promote Jews, Jews pat Gentile Jewish wannabes on the head for good toady work. It wouldn’t matter to anyone that Jews do this as most minorities do, but I can’t think of a single other minority group in America which has so many members active in high government, financial, and American media management. Is it a “coincidence” then that America stands alone in most world opinion for supporting Jewish racism rampant in Israel which is out to rid Palestine of Palestinian Arabs? I protest this particular Abrahamic organized religious group which is just like the other Abrahamic ones, religious covers for political ambitions of territorial conquest and supreme social control. The Jews aiming to take away Canaan/Palestine for themselves, Evangelical Christians in America supporting this racist aim as do all Jews who try to defame us anti-Zionist Jews, btw, like here, although these days Evangelicals are not as aggressive in seeking world domination for Christianity as the Muslims are who’ve taken up the Abrahamic religious territorial war goal with everyone not a true believer.
I’m sorry, Mitch, Eric, but after much research and thought I cannot support the Jewish faith. It was always based on racial selection and therefore racist to the core and this core element is being acted out in Palestine. It’s why I am not a practicing Jew but a Christian. Once you decide to help everyone in need as God’s commandment, you have to choose between serving fellow Cult members as prescribed by religious commandment or serving everyone without discrimination of race or creed. You can’t serve two masters at the same time and do justice to both. Simple as that. I choose to serve humanity, all of it without prejudice.
Besides, Judaism, Pauline Christianity, Islam, they’re all still fighting Star Wars with each other and don’t know it, e.g. Christians having no idea Jesus Christ of the Gospels is a classic Sun God, Jews having no idea that they are commanded to worship the planet Saturn or die, Muslims having no idea their Moon God stands at war with Sun god religions so they choose Venus’s Day for their holy day leaving Saturn’s Day to Jews, and Sun’s Day for Christians. These Star Wars became obsolete when the Southern Hemisphere started filling up with Abrahamic believers still using Near Eastern stellar coordinates for religious calendars. Now the Abrahamic religious calendars are completely obsolete as we enter space travel. It’s a New Aeon. No place in it for walking dead religions.
December 19, 2011 at 5:04 am
Steve
Also to show all of you how it works, I had to switch email accounts here in order to post the above. Eric once again tried to stop my posting by blocking my isp. He and Heraldo are the only ones who stoop to these petty censoring tactics. God help us if they ever get into public office.
December 19, 2011 at 8:52 am
Ernie's Place
I went to the test, I couldn’t get through it. Not one single answer would represent any of my thoughts. It would be like asking the question “How would you like to stop beating your wife” A,B, or C?
If the test would represent any of what is in the movie, I can’t imagine myself being able to sit through it.
We need to stop the intellectual masturbation and start participating in solving the real problem… Our leaders don’t represent America, they only represent themselves and the people that fund their elections.
The Occupy Movement with all of it’s warts and filth may be our last hope. Hidden in it’s insanity is the last hope of a desperate proletariat. When you are drowning, even a dead bloated cow looks like a great life raft.
December 19, 2011 at 9:39 am
Mitch
Laughing, crying, and agreeing, Ernie.
December 19, 2011 at 10:02 am
Anonymous
Intellectual masturbation so describes eric.
If you really want to make a difference eric, stop talking and go do something good, something that doesn’t stroke your bloated ego.
This movie, and all that you have written, is meaningless clap-trap.
December 19, 2011 at 10:29 am
Eric Kirk
The test has nothing to do with the film really. It was something PBS tacked on.
I’m all for action Ernie, but action without reflection can be very dangerous. There are seven to 20 million killed in the Soviet Union who might say something about that if they could. If action does indeed lead to power, power with good intentions can actually be more destructive than power for the sake of greed. The film is about trying to find ways to change the world for the better without repeating horrible historical mistakes, which is easier said than done.
December 19, 2011 at 10:48 am
Anonymous
I watch a lot of movies. A LOT. French movies of the late 60′s-early 80′s are especially intellectual. Lots of talking. Their documentaries are often like field studies of humanity. I don’t know much at all about their politics, but to stereotype their philosphy is to say they’re not afraid of civilized yet cut-throat discussion. They’re not easily offended, as they’re prepared to defend themselves and understand talk is just talk while keeping a straight face. It’s an activity and an excercise unto itself.
December 19, 2011 at 10:56 am
Mitch
There are decent steps that can be taken now. I’m sure they will seem trivial to many, but they have the advantage of actually being doable, and by an individual who does not need to coordinate with anyone. Closing bank accounts and opening replacement accounts at responsible credit unions like Provident (not Coast Central) is one very concrete action that anyone currently banking with a large bank can take.
I suspect people who feel that such actions are meaningless have rather bloated egos; they won’t be happy just being one drop in an ocean because it seems so miniscule. They want to do something big! Let’s nationalize this! Let’s destroy that! The only catch is, they actually have no power to do the explanation point things, but that never stops the demands.
Actually those drop by drop changes are the real way in which non-violent change happens. Then, when there’s an avalanche as a result of all the drops accumulating, a pol steps in to take credit, and the gasbags debate whether it was this pol or that pol. No drops, no avalanche; no avalanche, no hero.
I think it may have been the Laurel’s Kitchen cookbook that pointed out how, in 1960s activist communities, the activist men made all the important decisions, like what our foreign policy should be, while the women made the unimportant decisions, like what food to buy and cook, and how they would live. I smiled for months after I read that.
December 19, 2011 at 11:07 am
Anonymous
I saw the movie a few years ago. I agree that it was well done but I am not as enamored with those four as you are. Irving Howe was the only one who still had a soul intact and even he became a passive supporter of Israel and military cold war policies. Nathan Glazer is just another advocate of the war on the poor. I don’t even understand what Bell thinks. Irving Kristol was just a plain sell-out.
The “new left” like Tom Hayden may have made mistakes but at least they were trying.
December 19, 2011 at 12:01 pm
Eric Kirk
Saying someone is a “supporter of Israel” can mean many things. He actually didn’t write about it all that much, certainly not as often as Michael Walzer and other Dissent writers who can fairly be described as within the tradition of the old Zionist left. I’m not sure Howe even really belongs in that class.
This from the Dissent Blog:
http://www.dissentmagazine.org/atw.php?id=172
In 1967, in the wake of the Six-Day War, Irving Howe and Stanley Plastrik wrote a short article for Dissent addressing the new importance of Israel even for Jews who, as Howe would write fifteen years later in A Margin of Hope, “had no intention whatever of buying a one-way ticket to Israel.” While the political circumstances of 1967 are in many ways different from our own, Howe and Plastrik’s sentiments do not feel so dated:
“We support the survival of Israel as a people, but that in no way signifies acquiescence in the ‘tough’ and chauvinist outcries that have emerged among certain Israeli political and military leaders…If a return to the old borders seems unrealistic insofar as it would leave Israel once again open to terrorist harassment, the Israelis would nevertheless do well to forgo the temptation of large-scale territorial conquest….Israelis should take a constructive and humane attitude toward the problem of the Arab refugees—who, even if exploited by the Arab governments, are suffering human beings and deserve more sympathy and active help than they have gotten from a nation itself comprised of refugees.”
You can debate whether in 1967 Israel had attacked out of aggression, ore preemptively, but Egypt, Jordan and Syria combined had well over 200 thousand troops massed at the borders (in Egypt’s case, about 2/3 of its entire force), and it’s unlikely they were there for show. Reasonable minds could have differed on the intent, but what was clear was that if the intention was to invade, a lot of Israelis were going to be killed. So ambivalence with regard to that war was hardly a crime, and could hardly be defined as an unquestioning support for anything Israel did. There were plenty of Israelis who probably took Howe’s words as an attack on them.
December 19, 2011 at 12:21 pm
Eric Kirk
I’ve allowed those two posts to go through Steven, but that’s probably going to be it. The thread isn’t about you nor your anti-Semitism, and the fact that somebody drew your blood and says you have Jewish ancestry does not make you Jewish, and in any case does not excuse your bigotry nor make it more palatable for the rest of us.
If you want one more post in response to mine, I’ll send it through and not respond further. But I blocked you because you have a habit of monopolizing threads with your own anti-Jewish agenda, and those days are over. I think one of the last straws for me was when you posted the Nazi propaganda unquestioningly taking if from a Palestinian activist website which had unfortunately and unquestioningly accepted it from a Nazi source. It contained made-up and out-of-context passages from the Talmud designed to paint the faith as racist.
Not here.
Lest anybody think I’m being unfair, here’s the old post.
http://kunsoo1024.wordpress.com/2007/11/16/more-rumors-and-innuendo/
There was a thread, which is probably available on the old blogpost blog, but for some reason WordPress left a number of threads back there. I think it got overloaded.
December 19, 2011 at 1:03 pm
Anonymous
Before you boot him, eric, let’s read Steve’s take of his own race. What are those of his ethnicity up to these days? What are his ethnic/religious allegiances? What are the differences between birthright and declerative allegiance, and when do they matter in conspiracies like he describes? Just what kinda bigot is Steve, is what I wanna know. He’s gotta at least know he’s a bigot.
December 19, 2011 at 1:21 pm
Eric Kirk
You can go to his blog for all that. For the record, Judaism isn’t a race.
December 19, 2011 at 1:25 pm
Mitch
For clarification, I’m not anti-Zionist. But I won’t be pursuing that here.
December 19, 2011 at 1:48 pm
Anonymous
steve’s own blog? Nevermind, I don’t even care what it’s dedicated to, hopefully not the tripe he wrote above. He’s what I write off as “crazy”.
December 19, 2011 at 1:52 pm
Ernie's Place
Eric said: “action without reflection can be very dangerous. There are seven to 20 million killed in the Soviet Union who might say something about that if they could. If action does indeed lead to power, power with good intentions can actually be more destructive than power for the sake of greed. The film is about trying to find ways to change the world for the better without repeating horrible historical mistakes, which is easier said than done.
“
The starvation in Russia was an act of war by Joseph Stalin. He staved his own people in an undeclared act of war against the Ukrainians. It was known as the “Holodomor” (Death by hunger) There is a loosely held theory, here in the United States, that Obama wouldn’t do that. However, one in four children in the U.S. go to bed malnourished. That’s up from one in six a few short years ago. There is a bunch of talk about that.
However, we have been “talking” about what’s wrong with America since the 1980s. Talk doesn’t seem to have much effect. We ALL know that we have sold our souls to China, a communist country that doesn’t play well with others. Most of us without their heads up a very dark place can see the problems in dealing with China, but the people in power are in a position to profit from the unfair trade with China, and other less-than-fair offshore markets.
Any true intellectual should be able to perceive that we are kept at each others throats while arguing about Democrat, Republican, Liberal, Conservative, Tea Party and Occupy, by the ultra wealthy, who also own the media, which feeds our small minded intellectual arguments, while they pull all strings.
I’m reminded of the two very skinny buzzards sitting on a limb. One says to the other, “Tell me again… why do we have to wait? Why can’t we just go kill something?”
December 19, 2011 at 2:16 pm
Eric Kirk
Stalin did that and much more in the name of a better world. He first studied to be a priest, and then became a bank robber for the revolutionaries. By many accounts, he “meant well” until power corrupted him.
Mao and Pol Pot also meant well at certain points in their lives.
We do have a quasi-democratic system which limits the power we can achieve, but a little bit of reflection along the way doesn’t hurt. Where are we coming from? Where are we going? Etc.
December 19, 2011 at 2:20 pm
Eric Kirk
Mitch – It would be a bottomless pit, even with Steven out of the discussion. I may start up a thread on progressive Zionism some day, but it’s a fairly complicated subject for a blog discussion.
December 19, 2011 at 2:31 pm
Steve
Eric, have you ever read the Talmud? You know when you rush to judgment about “anti-Semitism” you are only showing your own bigotry because like it or not, Judaism, the religion you aspire to it would seem, is based on RACISM, pure and simple racism. You can’t erase all those Torah, Tanakh, Talmud scriptures that command Jews to marry only Jews and to shun contact as much as possible with Gentiles and this is RACISM, Eric, racism. It doesn’t matter to those of us who judge organized religions by their actions and not words that modern Jews renounce the racism of their ancestors, not enough of them do this as modern Israeli apartheid policies show. So stop your whining about my so-called “bigotry” when you yourself are the bigot here, parading Jewish culture, Jewish intellectuals, Jewish politics, over and over and censoring the supporter of real Semitic peoples. You’re actions speak for themselves, Eric. You are a bigot prejudiced against Semitic peoples as you defend, apologize for, Zionist Jews.
And when you stoop to censorship like Heraldo, you are also being an intellectual coward afraid to face debate on your prejudices. I will give you another source of the same Talmud quotes that you in AIPAC/ADL toady form label “anti-Semitic” but this source is not Muslim, doesn’t like Islam, isn’t Christian, doesn’t like Christianity, isn’t Jewish, doesn’t like Judaism. It’s Atheist, Eric, deal with it. Prove to us the anti-Gentilism does not exist in the Jewish Scriptures. It does and you know but are afraid of being exposed here as a Jewish wannabe bigot against Gentiles.
December 19, 2011 at 2:52 pm
Mitch
Basically, Eric, I’ve got to say Steve is not far off base in some facts, though I’ve never heard it put quite this way. After all, the Jewish faith considers Jews “God’s chosen people” — thus, the Jewish joke “why, god, why can’t you choose someone else for a change?”
There is an element of tribalism or race in it — the twelve tribes of Israel, with some tribes being able to do some things that others could not. I think this is why Judaism has never evangelized. I know people convert to Judaism, but I have no idea how this is reconciled with the “chosen people” stuff.
I think Christianity today inherits some of this chosen-ness, but my understanding of Christianity is light. Don’t Christians think that they are now chosen by God, due to their acceptance of Christ as their savior?
Steve, you’ve got an interesting understanding of all this. I don’t think you’ll find many Jews today who consider themselves chosen by God, but maybe I just grew up in a smarter and more atheistic group of Jews than most. I’ve never understood how any Jew with an IQ better than that of a squash can believe in a benevolent God after the Holocaust. In any event, the ancient mythical belief that one’s tribe was chosen 6 millennia ago hardly seems worse to me than the Christian doctrine of the rapture. And, in all seriousness, I wish God would choose someone else, if he exists.
As for Jews being surprisingly more heavily represented in government, medicine, and banking than would be proportional to our population, I think that might be true. I’ve always chalked it up to an extremely heavy emphasis on education in Jewish families, and I’ve always chalked that up to the awareness that any material item or worldly wealth you think you possess can be taken away by the majority at any moment, with or without any reason, while education cannot.
The mid-century genocide conducted by Europe (Germany, Poland, Austria, etc…) and now being paid for by the Palestinians was only the most recent example of this for Jews. Go back a few decades and you’ve got the pogroms that caused my grandparents to flee Russia. When a culture is aware of ancestors having their property stolen and their lives taken, literally over multiple millennia, it tends to impact the culture.
December 19, 2011 at 3:14 pm
Eric Kirk
You don’t debate Steve. That’s the problem. You dominate threads with your weird narrow agenda. I once posted a video of Simon and Garfunkle and had to turn it into one of your wackoid conspiracy theory threads about Kazars disguising themselves as Jews and whatnot.
Mitch – Christians view themselves as individually chosen, not collectively. At least the Protestant variety.
Everything in your post, I’ve said to Steven over and over again. It doesn’t impress him. He thinks that Huns as Jews have come back to take over the world, and obsesses over the fact that as a group Jews have been economically and politically successful, for whatever reasons.
December 19, 2011 at 3:20 pm
Mitch
Well, yeah, Eric, there’s that thing about taking over the world, too. But I thought that was The Gay Agenda, not The Jewish Agenda. It’s so hard to keep my minorities straight.
December 19, 2011 at 3:38 pm
Eric Kirk
Well, with Simon, Garfunkle, and Steven Spielberg on your side, how can you fail?
December 19, 2011 at 3:40 pm
Mitch
You had me up to Steven Spielberg, Eric.
December 19, 2011 at 4:04 pm
suzy blah blah
… view themselves as individually chosen, not collectively
-HUGE distinction.
December 19, 2011 at 4:19 pm
Ernie's Place
I came to the conclusion that NO religion can be healthy if it excludes the rights of others, which pretty much describes ALL religions. My own family was torn apart by a cult religion in the form a “Bible study group.” I firmly, and soundly, reject all religions.
I fully believe that you should treat others as you would want to be treated yourself. That would automatically reject any Holocaust. My friends are far more important to me than any religious, or political differences that I might have with them. In the end, friends and family is all you have, the rest is just ill advised superstition.
You won’t find me in any argument supporting any religion over another, or even suporting relgion at all.
December 19, 2011 at 4:23 pm
Ernie's Place
Come to think of it, that’s pretty much how I feel about political parties also…
December 19, 2011 at 4:59 pm
Mitch
Ernie,
Eastern religions are somewhat different. It’s not considered odd to accept multiple faiths, because the faiths are not mutually contradictory. While monotheism may have the advantage of offering a common creator god, polytheism offers the advantage that you can believe in A and don’t have to fight with everyone who believes in B.
I like Buddhism a lot, but that may be because I’m experiencing it as an American. In America, it’s a religion of choice, chosen by people who have given the issue some thought. For most people, their religion is just what was assigned by the lottery of birth. Buddhism in its birthplace may be just as void of thought as modern-day Christianity is in Pat Robertson’s church, or Jerry Falwell’s.
Not to mention that Buddhism’s as trendy as a cello concerto.
December 19, 2011 at 5:05 pm
Anonymous
Any justification for Israel’s actions in the six day war are motivated by zionism. There is no other rational explanation.
December 19, 2011 at 8:55 pm
Stephen
Mitch, some brains for a change showing. Eric doesn’t really get it that his blog is for public show, like courtroom show, where the Law is determined by which lawyer can sway the jury his way using whatever tactics work that are legal. Defamation of character is his strong suit dealing with me so I do appreciate it when someone actually takes the time to and intellectual courtesy to respond to debate points as such that come up in these discussions. Israel coming up a lot on Eric’s blog. Mine is swarming with the subject.
When I post something negative about Judaism, I am here, I am on my blog, to be available for source I get the negative stuff. It exists and you or anyone now can access it and the site I use now to vet the authenticity of the Talmud verses against Gentiles for example, is by one of the historians used for the Zeigeist movie material. D.M. Murdock, is nothing if not loaded with scholarly references for her published works.
When I say Judaism is based on racism that is correct as far as I am concerned speaking from anthropological point of view. Judaism in the Torah/Tanakh/Talmud commands, not urges, but commands Jews to be separate from Goyim, i.e. the great majority of humankind. Yes, here and there in the Jewish Scriptures, who knows the real history.., there are token Gentiles taken into the Jewish fold, especially those who betray their Gentile fellow-countrymen. Look at Jewish holy days and see more celebration of punishment of Gentiles. My friend Siena tells me her grandparents would have disowned her if she had married a Goy and this was evidently the majority Jewish view up until the ’50′s when Jews were accepted into American business as equals. Israel foundation may have influenced the acceptance of Jews in America. My mom married into a very Protestant Evangelical family. Two missionary aunts to scary places, pre-Communist China where her husband was taken POW, another to Bolivia in one of those incredible First Encounter deals, missionaries two weeks ahead of this aunt being killed and head-shrunk. So my stuff is tame by comparison. But back to my mom, we kids had no idea of her Jewishness. My uncle, her brother, was very dark skinned and my mom was supposedly the lightest skinned of her family. My mom liked Manichivitz kosher wines was the only clue I figured out 50 years later. My dad’s family didn’t seem to like my mom so who knows..anyway, we did find out and confirm her Jewish heredity through her mom’s side. Ashkenazim relatives all over Europe, especially Poland naturally, Lithuania going to Uzbekistan but no further. Some traces of Sephardic Mizraim from Tunisia and Libya but the ridiculous “Right of Return” is too socially, ecologically absurd to contemplate except by a religious fanatic group who believe themselves really Chosen of God and can do whatever they damn well please.
My slogan for years has been We are Holy One and you can’t believe in this if you divide your loyalty between Us and Them. A kingdom divided will not stand and that’s a truism.
Palestine for Palestinians. Jews living in Palestine prior to 1948 were called “Palestinian Jews” and that’s how it should be because Palestinians should be the people who live in Palestine but outside interests, Ashkenazi European Jewish led, pushed the Zionist agenda and so Israel, the last vestige of European religious colonization happened and it wasn’t acceptable this time around. You will note that when Europeans failed to become the majority population in the non-European lands they colonized their colonization failed and the natives took back their own countries. Israel is trying desperately now to out-populate Palestinians in Israel, in the West Bank but they are doomed to failure. There’s just no enough Jews in the world willing to go to Israel to become cannon fodder for Jewish colonization so by 2050 I’ve read Palestinian Israelis will become the majority population in Israel! So long, Israel, as the name of the Holy Land.
Again, only religious narcissism and hubris keeps these facts from being rationally discussed by Jews. And you get the sides formation on which I usually can be found supporting the victims of another European racially based genocidal aggression on another non-European country. The Abrahamic religious myths are just that. Myths of origin and not history. People shouldn’t be dying for ancient myths. My Christianity is not traditional in the least so I work against all Abrahamic religions promoting religious war, Judaism is just closest at hand..e.g. Eric, is still trying to censor my posts–had to use another ISP to get around ADL Eric..
December 19, 2011 at 9:52 pm
Bolithio
Where did the inspiration go from religion? When I see the wonders of the past, in the form of art and engineering, done with divine inspiration, I wonder what happened? What inspires us now? I believe this has to do with the fact that religion has not kept pace with culture. Religion as it was is obsolete. Religion attempts to explain our origins, purpose, and destination. It can no longer do that, and we see it cling to the last relevant threads of its existence. The scientific process will guide the direction of culture in the long run. We just all happen to live in the period in between.
December 20, 2011 at 3:39 am
Stephen
No Bolithio, atheism doesn’t step into the spiritual vacuum being experienced by intellectuals worldwide because atheism too is a religion that can only be held by fundamentalist belief. Logic was never on the side of atheism because logic re God and spiritual reality says there’s not enough data to make any permanent judgment, i.e. agnosticism is the only scientific point of view, not atheism, which has already made up its mind. For example as brain science continues to explore the human conscious we don’t find atheistic consciousness as the inherent human tabla rosa slate but the reverse, definite brain structuring that is associated with religious consciousness, e.g. the “God gene”. When you look objectively at the human record one sees over 40,000 years of human history showing human beings structuring their social lives around spiritual events, the astro-theology systems showing this worldwide.
We are in one of the Progression of the Equinoxes phases where we are changing astrological Signs, going from Pisces to Aquarius, the Mayan calendar ending on their calculations of this Progression of the Equinoxes and my own spiritual experience having it end traditionally at the year 2000 which is when God confirmed the basic idea behind the Gospel of Humanity for me, that We are Holy One. God is the Great Spirit of Humanity that has already evolved into God at the “End of Days” in this Creation that exists for the purpose of evolving Life into God. You see, it’s only been the lack of substantive religious vision in our times that have given the illusion that religion is dying when it never can, being that awareness of the universe that is beyond time and space, i.e. “supernatural” from our point of view.
December 20, 2011 at 8:11 am
Mitch
Eric,
We watched it last night. It’s a good film, though more gossipy than I’d expected.
For me, it’s biggest value was in showing the war between the generations. Youth brings passion, the generation 40 years older brings some combination of sellout and experience, with the balance always subject to individual opinion, and always looking more like sellout to the youth. Although I know nothing of Tom Hayden, I’ve seen many young radical leaders who I can easily imagine turning fascist; the tragedy is that they honestly don’t know that themselves.
It’s also a morality tale, in Kristol, on what can happen once you’ve got a comfy chair to sit in. It’s hard, for me, not to feel great fondness for the other three.
It’s also fun, from my comfy chair in California in 2011, to watch a large group of people who don’t care what they look like. Such a relief! And even though I was born in 1957, some of the scenes of the Lower East Side in the 30s were recognizable; I’d swear some of those yiddish street markets were around when I was 5 or 10.
December 20, 2011 at 8:46 am
Ernie's Place
“Youth brings passion, the generation 40 years older brings some combination of sellout and experience, with the balance always subject to individual opinion, and always looking more like sellout to the youth”
I was having some trouble with my cell phone the other day, I asked “The Kid” what I was doing wrong. He mused, “why do old people have so much trouble with cell phones?” I replied,because when I was his age instead of screwing around with electronic gadgets I built my own house. That seemed to quite him a bit.
December 20, 2011 at 11:13 am
suzy blah blah
Religion attempts to explain our origins, purpose, and destination. It can no longer do that
-neither can science. But spirituality can, and does..
December 20, 2011 at 11:33 am
tra
I think it was Tom Robbins who said something along the lines of “religion is to spirituality as a goldfish bowl is to the ocean.”
December 20, 2011 at 12:28 pm
Mitch
You don’t have to go very far down this link — http://jesuskoan.blogspot.com/2011/11/robert-baker-aitken-roshi-june-19-1917.html — to see a picture of what a responsible spiritual leader looks like today. Aitken Roshi happened to be Buddhist, but it’s the smile and the sign that are the proof of his spirituality. The text isn’t bad either.
December 20, 2011 at 12:56 pm
suzy blah blah
@ Tra, If one yearns to see the face of the Divine, one must break out of the aquarium, escape the fish farm, to go swim up wild cataracts, dive in deep fjords. One must explore the labyrinth of the reef, the shadows of the lily pads …
Tom Robbins
December 20, 2011 at 1:36 pm
Erasmus
Some very insightful comments here, and I wish that this thread could somehow be joined to the one on Hitchens. On spirituality and religion, he was tone-deaf: the subtitle of his atheist manifesto is “How Religion Poisons Everything,” an absurd statement that I doubt he would have had the courage to defend in the presence of Martin Luther King, Jr, Dorothy Day, or the Berrigan brothers. Every atheist is a village atheist, and by that I mean “provincial” in the sense that Edna St. Vincent Millay used it: The world “is not all;/Is harsh with envy, greed, assault, — or blooms/With friendship, courage, truth, is beautiful;/Yet is at best but an inn on a thoroughfare:/P r o v i n c i a l, one might call the mind contented there.” — Hitchens would have loathed being called ‘provincial’ — I heard him use the word “invigilate” in an interview (recently aired) and understood why he would use such a recherche word on the radio —- he reveled in his sophistication, his “knowingness.” Not for him the humility of the true scientist or philosopher. He became a celebrity, a “go-to” guy for quotable comments, a media star whose simplistic thoughts were masked by a literary style far above the norm. I’m afraid that his response to a question about “daisy-cutters” (a bomb designed to maim its targets) several years ago soured my perspective on him: in short, he loved them. — No, M. Hitchens, there are mental habits other than religion that can poison our world.
December 20, 2011 at 1:45 pm
Mitch
Erasmus,
MLK, Dorothy Day, the Berrigan Brothers: good. X, Y, Z: bad.
The question you are answering seems to be: “are there people who have done amazing things drawing on the inspiration provided by their faith in Jesus Christ?” The unchallenged answer is yes.
A more sensible question is: “does a faith in the divinity of Jesus Christ (or “your name here”) lead one, on average, to behave in better ways than one would behave if one did not have that faith?”
December 20, 2011 at 2:13 pm
Bolithio
And that answer might be no Mitch. If the dogma clings to outdated ideas that have evolved in our culture; such as how we deal with other races, the opposite sex, homosexuality, application of the latest science etc… the teachings become confused and inconstant. As it stands the major religious institutions cost our society an untold cost in inefficiency and slow us from progressing while we waste time trying to sort our their discombobulated views.
I dont think the generic ‘good rules’ of religions are ever in question. But considering behaviors we see our moral leaders engaging in, there is a good argument that our children learn more about morals and good ethical behavior from Sesame Street than in church.
December 20, 2011 at 2:47 pm
Anonymous
Religion is instinctual. Everybody satisfies their religious instinct, regardless of upbringing. There are infinite manifestations of peoples’ religious instinct. Popularity has nothing to do with what religion satisfies within us.
December 20, 2011 at 3:02 pm
suzy blah blah
does a faith in the divinity of Jesus Christ (or “your name here”) lead one, on average, to behave in better ways than one would behave if one did not have that faith?
-i think what youre talking about is what i’d call false faith, a mere proclamation of faith, ie those who may think they have faith cuz they choose to have faith. And of course the answer is no. But if you were to be able to investigate those who have a “real” faith (no choice involved) then you’d come up with a different average.
December 20, 2011 at 3:07 pm
Erasmus
I really don’t care for “on average” questions because they are designed more for statisticians than for philosophers, but I will reply by pointing out that, under the Roman Empire, people were killed by wild animals in public arenas for entertainment, that actual murders were enacted on stage as an additional frisson for theater-goers, that new-born infants were routinely abandoned in remote areas when their lives were rejected, and that these (and other) practices slowly died away with the ascension of Christianity. I can’t compute “averages” but I can smell a trend.
December 20, 2011 at 3:22 pm
Mitch
I could similarly point to the behavior of Christians in their encounters with Native Americans, Jews, etc…, but will restrain myself. I’ll just point out that I don’t see the same trend.
December 20, 2011 at 3:26 pm
Mitch
blah,
Let me choose the valid subset of the experimental population, and I’ll give you whatever experimental results you pay for.
December 20, 2011 at 3:36 pm
suzy blah blah
-you missed the point Mitch. Which is that there’s a humungous difference between what you refer to as faith, and real faith.
December 20, 2011 at 4:17 pm
Erasmus
Ditto, Suzy.
December 20, 2011 at 4:45 pm
Anonymous
Imagine Hamish McDonald, a Scotsman, sitting down with his Glasgow Morning Herald and seeing an article about how the “Brighton Sex Maniac Strikes Again.” Hamish is shocked and declares that “No Scotsman would do such a thing.” The next day he sits down to read his Glasgow Morning Herald again and this time finds an article about an Aberdeen man whose brutal actions make the Brighton sex maniac seem almost gentlemanly. This fact shows that Hamish was wrong in his opinion but is he going to admit this? Not likely. This time he says, “No TRUE Scotsman would do such a thing.”
—Antony Flew, Thinking About Thinking
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
December 20, 2011 at 5:11 pm
Mitch
I’ll have to take both of you at your words. I am envious, but suspicious.
December 20, 2011 at 5:34 pm
Dave Kirby
The movie is a snapshot in time. They began as Trotskyites and all morphed into something else. Their journeys are a record of some really smart guys in interesting times.
December 20, 2011 at 8:13 pm
Eric Kirk
Dave – that’s really what it’s about. It’s natural to become more “conservative” as you get older and materially as well as institutionally vested, but these four each had a commonality of experience up into the 1950s and took dramatically different paths by the end of the 60s.
I disagree with the take on Kristol re the comfy chair. Whatever else you want to say about him, he went out on a limb with a new passion for his new cause, and it worked out for him. But he sacrificed his critical thinking for the new cause, and that was mildly tragic. I’m thinking of an old Sartre play in which the main character becomes a socialist and joins a revolutionary party, and is essentially required by the revolutionary cause to give up the very virtues and critical thinking which had led him to become a revolutionary in the first place. I think Kristol found himself in a similar situation, and accepted the cognitive dissonance in the name of the cause.
December 20, 2011 at 8:28 pm
Eric Kirk
For me, it’s biggest value was in showing the war between the generations. Youth brings passion, the generation 40 years older brings some combination of sellout and experience, with the balance always subject to individual opinion, and always looking more like sellout to the youth. Although I know nothing of Tom Hayden, I’ve seen many young radical leaders who I can easily imagine turning fascist; the tragedy is that they honestly don’t know that themselves.
I’m certain that some of the elders’ concerns had merit. And I’m sure the younger generation’s claims that the elders were condescending and patronizing had merit as well. It was a valuable part of the film. I appreciated the McCarthy discussion as well.
Howe’s last pithy remarks about Kristol and Kristol’s eye rolling dismissal of Howe earlier in the film were also powerful. If they were still alive, I would have loved to see them debate face to face.
I’m glad you took the opportunity to see it Mitch. I thought you’d appreciate it.
December 20, 2011 at 8:30 pm
Stephen
Too bad that enlightenment does allow you to see how much time and mental energy you put into an obviously failed ideology. It’s a fault of the Left’s parentage in militant socialism that went to ideological war right off the bat with Marx both using mainly Christian communitarian socialistic ideas (just look at Acts 2:44,45 and compare to Marx’s Communist Manifesto slogan) and miltarizing them, thus throwing the whole idea of voluntarily changing one’s ways out the window allowing fascism to replace individual choice. Without spiritual commitment human beings just do not want to share their wealth in my experience and it will take armed force to make them do so. That’s why I long ago went the spiritual activist route instead of the militant socialist one that is the basic foundation of the Left past ideology. And it’s a failed ideology. How long will it take the Left to understand they took the wrong road back in the 1800′s under Marx’s condemnation of communitarian socialism as “utopian socialism” i.e. fantasy vs. Marx’s “scientific socialism”, ..as if…
Eric continues the Left’s glorification of their failed history while at the same time recognizes the need for a new new new Left movement. Can’t go right but we can go cooperative instead of military, i.e. the way the communitarian movement has always gone forcing no one into any set ideology except cooperation, networking cooperative alternatives that when done right will perform far better than capitalist market economies in the long run which is the mark of sustainability. Old Leftist ideology missed ecology completely while your communitarian socialists are living it.
December 20, 2011 at 11:18 pm
Mitch
Thanks, Eric and Erasmus, for the suggestion. On top of everything else about the movie, it had no Tom Cruise and no car explosions. That alone made it delightful.
December 21, 2011 at 12:11 am
Anonymous
John Reed was a communist.
December 21, 2011 at 1:18 am
Stephen
Well, so much for keeping intelligent dialogue going on this blog..
December 21, 2011 at 5:42 am
moviedad
“under the Roman Empire, people were killed by wild animals in public arenas for entertainment, that actual murders were enacted on stage as an additional frisson for theater-goers,…”
And today, in imperialist America; young men and women in prisons are brutalized and tortured on prime-time tv for “entertainment.” Those not currently incarcerated for crimes associated with the violent conditions of their environment; are humiliated and mocked for their poverty and lack of education.
We’ve lost no savagery in the last couple of millenniums. It’s just become more sophisticated and subtle.
Yes, it’s true; mostly people are not being killed, but yes they are. Its just done with Special Effects nowadays, look at our movies; it’s the same blood-lust.
Not quite ‘recherche’; is it? Good Grief, Charlie Brown!
December 21, 2011 at 8:06 am
Anonymous
Thank you for the link to Irving Howe’s obit. Obviously he was not into political correctness.
He could be abrupt and flinty when confronted with what he regarded as stupidity or sanctimoniousness. The story is told, for example, of his response when a woman, attending a lecture he gave on “The World of Our Fathers,” criticized him for not titling the book “World of Our Fathers and Our Mothers.”
” ‘World of Our Fathers’ is a title,” Mr. Howe responded testily. ” ‘World of Our Fathers and Our Mothers’ is a speech.”
I was also interested to read that he is the one who discovered Isaac Bashevis Singer. Also that he predicted Ronald Reagan’s election as President ten years before it happened.
December 21, 2011 at 8:16 am
Dave Kirby
E…I absolutely agree. The elders were put off by the 60s “new left”. In the case of the neocons they found the anti war leftists un patriotic. The irony is that many of the “yippies” became “yuppies” and laid the foundation for what became the “me” generation.
December 21, 2011 at 8:27 am
Eric Kirk
Dave – that was the point of his “dentist” remark, though he probably should have said that the kid would end up working the PR department in Lockheed.
December 21, 2011 at 8:48 am
Eric Kirk
8:06 – Howe is credited for introducing Yiddish culture to the American mainstream, though I think there are others who deserve credit there as well.
It is a tetament to Howe’s intellectual independence that he promoted Singer, who was a conservative – always.
December 21, 2011 at 8:49 am
Erasmus
Although I don’t have TV in my house, I would nonetheless like to know when the “prime-time” show of prisoners being tortured is shown — I’ll notify my friends and we can get together to indulge our barbaric proclivities and salivate when the blood starts dripping. — After watching the spectacle of late-capitalist savagery, we’ll gloat over the imperialist dominance which the USA exercises. If you’ll provide a list of the countries that comprise the American Empire, you’ll make our job much easier. Remember: in every Empire in world history, there was no ambiguity about whether a country was part of an Empire — the educational system was designed and run by the Empire, the composition of the legislature was controlled by the Empire, the military was run by the Empire, and the citizens of the country did not doubt that they were but a piece of much larger entity. I await the list (which should be a snap to compile).
December 21, 2011 at 8:53 am
Mitch
“Without spiritual commitment human beings just do not want to share their wealth in my experience and it will take armed force to make them do so.”
It’s not that black and white, Stephen.
I know many people who contribute money and time where they see they can meet needs — you can call it a spiritual commitment if you want, but they certainly don’t all believe in God, and many would make frown-faces if you told them they were demonstrating spiritual commitment.
I think many people are happy to do what they consider their share, even more than their share, but don’t want to increase their own contributions further until they see themselves joined by others. In other words, they’d be happy to see themselves and others in their situation taxed more in order to assist those in need, but are not willing to be a small voluntary minority bearing the burden on their own.
Individual spiritual commitment is all well and good, but a societal commitment to defend the vulnerable and assist those in need has the potential to accomplish far more than waiting for individuals to become enlightened — among other things, a societal commitment is a demonstration to individuals of what behavior is expected of them, and people often live up to and down to a society’s expectations.
The US could double humanitarian foreign aid and we’d barely notice the tax increase.
December 21, 2011 at 8:54 am
Mitch
Erasmus,
Pick up the North Coast Journal from a few weeks ago and read the article on “Ultimate Fighting” on the North Coast. No, no one is intentionally killed.
December 21, 2011 at 9:00 am
Anonymous
Sorry Eric but if the movie Yentl was any indication, Singer was boring.
December 21, 2011 at 9:03 am
Anonymous
Erasmus, I don’t watch TV either but I’m pretty sure you can rent or download episodes of COPS to satisfy your barbaric fantasy. You can watch foreigners slandered on the news on a regular basis…those insane and murderous “terrorists” being blasted to hell by God Lovin’ GI Joes, etc. Everything you ask for is there.
December 21, 2011 at 9:38 am
Anonymous
Religion is believing in something you know can’t be true, and used by the rich to keep the poor from killing them. Religion=brainwashing
Wasted time. Has this conversation made any difference? Except to satisfy some over bloated egos?
I’m surprised your hands haven’t fallen asleep from all this intellectual masturbation.
How about telling me why the hospital administrator at Jerold Phelps is making $200,000 per year? And has an ad in the local peper looking for an administrative assistant. That is both absurd and obscene.
December 21, 2011 at 10:59 am
Anonymous
“Religion is believing in something you know can’t be true”
Religion is believing in something you know to be true. Regardless of how ambiguous, you somehow satisfy your religious instinct as well…the big answersto the big questions…
December 21, 2011 at 11:21 am
Stephen
You may know “many people” I assume to be atheists happy to contribute their share, whatever that means, but statistically such people are a drop in the bucket in overall national populations. And when atheism is at the helm of national interests we got even more hideous fanatical death-dealing national policies, e.g. the Communists countries and the French Revolutionaries.
Until proven otherwise with statistical evidence, I will stick to my opinion that it takes a spiritual consciousness for a society to commit to sharing society produced wealth.
December 21, 2011 at 2:00 pm
Eric Kirk
Sorry Eric but if the movie Yentl was any indication, Singer was boring.
I never read the novel, but I seriously doubt Singer had intended for it to be filmed as a musical.
December 21, 2011 at 3:02 pm
Anonymous
Atheism is religion. “religion” doesn’t necessarily mean praying to gods through a jesus cross at a temple of some sort. It is a place in our psyche…a literal yet metaphysical place where our thoughts wander with whatever words or images or senses we choose, to answer questions nobody can guarantee an answer but to speak for themselves.
December 21, 2011 at 4:19 pm
suzy blah blah
Religion=brainwashing
-the big difference between spirituality and religion is the freedom to choose your own path towards recognition of our Divine selves. The suspicious no-nonsense skeptic is just as naive as the air-headed new age believer.
December 21, 2011 at 4:59 pm
Mitch
FWIW, I know many spiritual atheists.
Perhaps we just don’t have a shared language with which to communicate with “believers.”
I would recommend Lewis Thomas’ “Lives of a Cell” to anyone who thinks a belief in God is necessary in order to have a spiritual sense of awe. I have no idea whether Thomas was a believer, and I don’t really care.
I view spirituality as an awareness that there are things of greater importance than ourselves, or our selves. I view religiosity as a willingness to accept the explanations of someone who asserts they are “in the know” about such things.
You can be perfectly confident that there are things that matter more than your own material satisfaction, and you can be equally confident that most people peddling belief systems are in no better position than you to understand such matters.
December 21, 2011 at 5:00 pm
Eric Kirk
John Reed was a communist.
Missed this one the first time around. Um… Duh?
December 21, 2011 at 5:01 pm
Mitch
P.S. My largest complaint against the school I attended after high school was that it willingly drained the spirituality out of biology — it was infuriating, and I fought with my advisor over it.
December 21, 2011 at 5:09 pm
Anonymous
“I view religiosity as a willingness to accept the explanations of someone who asserts they are “in the know” about such things.”
I dunno how I’d define religion, but I know it would always be plural…as in, more than one person’s gotta know what it means. A person can claim themselves the sole practitioner of their own religion,..the definition isn’t broken, because anybody who understands what that sole religious perspective might be, confirms its existence. Hardcore dictionary detail stuff.
December 21, 2011 at 5:31 pm
suzy blah blah
… believing in something you know to be true. Regardless of how ambiguous,
-important point. Anyone who cant hold an ambiguous image in their mind is an idiot.
December 21, 2011 at 5:34 pm
Anonymous
again with your rorschack tests, suzy…it’s two spiders hanging laundry.
December 21, 2011 at 5:44 pm
suzy blah blah
I view religiosity as a willingness to accept the explanations of someone who asserts they are “in the know” about such things
-our whole life IS unknown ( you dont know what might come around the corner at you tomorrow) … so a feeling of unsureness is much nearer to the truth than the illusion and bluff of sureness. People who fancy they are sure of themselves are a drag.
December 21, 2011 at 7:23 pm
Mitch
suzy,
Forgive the Amazon link — but they let you look inside books they sell:
Only Don't Know: Selected Teaching Letters of Zen Master Seung Sahn
December 21, 2011 at 7:50 pm
Stephen
Mitch, you’re further explaining is putting you into the spiritual believer category so you are making my point for me. When I am talking about religion I am coming from a Gnostic Christian p.o.v. which still views our life in Creation following definite spiritual direction, for most people, not all, but most people. So while I follow what’s known as a Gnostic Solitary Path, i.e., it’s not part of any organized religion, it still follows spiritual directions found within organized religions as they are found universally, i.e. the “theotropism” concept I found right away without knowing anything about Gnosticism, the “turning to God” that is natural to human consciousness, plus the idea that salvation comes through knowledge of God as opposed to the Pauline Christian demand for using Jesus Christ as a sort of Jewish version of the classic dying/resurrection sun gods, e.g. Mithra for vicarious sin atonement, a logically senseless doctrine since by definition god men are immortal and therefore can never experience mortality, especially fear of death as mortal humans do. But for all it’s errors the basic Messianic Message has been carried through to our times via the Judeo-Christian tradition and that of course puts even us Gnostics in the messianic spiritual tradition if not the formally organized traditions. My own particular “Biomystic” Christian path now uniting with the Lakota tradition around the messianic prophesy which goes to show how far towards universalism Christian visionary spirituality has moved since the time of Christ. Mormonism tried to incorporate Native Americana but Joe Smith was too tied to the Abrahamic traditions, too early to know of the fatal flaws in that tradition, so Mormonism remains Old World centered. I want to say here, btw, I believe Joseph Smith fell short of the spiritual mark because he wasn’t Jewish and the true Messianic prophesy is that salvation is of the Jews. And that if my critics would ever allow me discernment between anti-Judaism and “anti-Semitism” is why I cannot ever wish for or work for the elimination of Jews. It’s not Jews that are the problem but Judaism. God, were it not for Israel and Zionism, I would be proud of my Jewish cultural influence on America, but as long as that monstrosity exists in the Middle East under the banner of Judaism, I will work to defeat this and Evangelical Christianity and Islam from keeping our world in constant Abrahamic warfare. And would only that atheists get organized and hold conferences not about the existence of God but about the Myths of Abrahamic believers being used to kill people with. Destroy the myths and you change the religious beliefs of the practitioners. It wasn’t that long ago fundamentalists were still running around telling the world dinosaurs didn’t exist. There’s no real social activism directed towards demystifying Abrahamic mythologies and there needs to be. Just some thoughts..
December 21, 2011 at 9:13 pm
suzy blah blah
-thnx 4 Nothing, Mitch
December 22, 2011 at 4:04 am
anon
Mitch, you’re further explaining is putting you into the spiritual believer category so you are making my point for me. When I am talking about religion I am coming from a Gnostic Christian p.o.v. which still views our life in Creation following definite spiritual direction, for most people, not all, but most people. So while I follow what’s known as a Gnostic Solitary Path, i.e., it’s not part of any organized religion, it still follows spiritual directions found within organized religions as they are found universally, i.e. the “theotropism” concept I found right away without knowing anything about Gnosticism, the “turning to God” that is natural to human consciousness, plus the idea that salvation comes through knowledge of God as opposed to the Pauline Christian demand for using Jesus Christ as a sort of Jewish version of the classic dying/resurrection sun gods, e.g. Mithra for vicarious sin atonement, a logically senseless doctrine since by definition god men are immortal and therefore can never experience mortality, especially fear of death as mortal humans do. But for all it’s errors the basic Messianic Message has been carried through to our times via the Judeo-Christian tradition and that of course puts even us Gnostics in the messianic spiritual tradition if not the formally organized traditions.
My own particular “Biomystic” Christian path now uniting with the Lakota tradition around the messianic prophesy which goes to show how far towards universalism Christian visionary spirituality has moved since the time of Christ. Mormonism tried to incorporate Native Americana but Joe Smith was too tied to the Abrahamic traditions, too early to know of the fatal flaws in that tradition, so Mormonism remains Old World centered. I want to say here, btw, I believe Joseph Smith fell short of the spiritual mark because he wasn’t Jewish, didn’t have the right credentials, and the true Messianic prophesy is that salvation is of the Jews. And that if my critics would ever allow me discernment between anti-Judaism and “anti-Semitism” is why I cannot ever wish for or work for the elimination of Jews. It’s not Jews that are the problem but Judaism. God, were it not for Israel and Zionism, I would be proud of Jewish cultural influence on America, but as long as that monstrosity exists in the Middle East under the banner of Judaism, I will work to defeat this and Evangelical Christianity and Islam from keeping our world in constant Abrahamic warfare.
And would only that atheists get organized and hold conferences not about the existence of God but about the Myths of Abrahamic believers being used to kill people with. Destroy the myths and you change the religious beliefs of the practitioners. It wasn’t that long ago fundamentalists were still running around telling the world dinosaurs didn’t exist. There’s no real social activism directed towards demystifying Abrahamic mythologies and there needs to be. Just some thoughts.
Eric, why do you continue to engage in these infantile censorship games with me? Had to do yet another end run around Eric’s blocking my posts. Censorship of ideas, it’s so intellectually cowardly, Eric, why do persist in it? Are you that insecure of your popularity you have to resort to chickenshit tactics to keep your clique together here? Mitch isn’t going my way, he likes posting on your blog too much. Just stop censoring me. It isn’t adult behavior as you can’t point to any reason to do such censoring here except pure childish spite on your part..
December 22, 2011 at 6:08 am
moviedad
“I await the list (which should be a snap to compile).”
Just cuz’ you’re educated; don’t think you can assign homework.
The shows I’m talking about are: “Hardtime-NGC”, “Lockup-MSNBC”, “Women Behind Bars”-A&E
I don’t think there is a more pompous or smug statement than: “I don’t own a TV.” Great! Good for you. What the hell does that mean? Are you immune to corporate-bullshit? I doubt it.
Do you own a laptop, you know that notebook looking thing? Then you own a tv.
Do you own a smartphone? They you own a tv.
Do you own a Prius? then you own a Tv.
Do you own a radio? They you are subject to the Networks.
Do you shop? Then you’re subject to the networks.
People who brag about not owning a TV are implying that everyone else is somehow and idiot, who “Archie Bunker”-like, comes home and plant’s himself in front of it and gets drunk till bedtime.
In my opinion the only channels on the tv that represents free-speech is LINK-TV and Free SpeechTV, and local community-access channels.
As far as the rest of my assignment goes…If you think American Imperial control and influence is “ambiguous” Then you’d better go buy yourself a TV.
December 22, 2011 at 6:10 am
moviedad
Two typo’s: “Then” instead of “they” and “Are” instead of “is” I hope this won’t hurt my grade too bad professor.
December 22, 2011 at 8:25 am
Erasmus
I didn’t mean to “brag” about not having TV in my house — I simply stated a fact, and I’m not ashamed that, before I moved into my current house 4 years ago, I watched some TV every evening. — My only beef with you, Moviedad, is perhaps pedantic: definitional differences over what words such as “imperial” and”socialist” mean. I admire your passion and would prefer a world ruled by your values to one subject to right-wing ideology, but I believe that progress in thinking will accelerate once precision in language is attained.
December 22, 2011 at 9:55 am
suzy blah blah
-there is no change from darkness to light or from inertia to movement without emotion. Passion comes from emotion. Our passion, not our reason, defines us. Following ones passions makes one an individual, whereas following whats reasonable does not. Following ones reason makes one a banal mediocre person. Follow your/the light. Passion will accelerate.
happy solstice!
December 22, 2011 at 5:42 pm
moviedad
I did not mean any offense. sorry…
December 22, 2011 at 6:14 pm
Mitch
Mitch isn’t going my way, he likes posting on your blog too much.
Well, Stephen, insulting me won’t help.
Gnosticism, at least as I’ve read about it in books like The Gnostic Gospels, has great appeal. If I remember correctly, as presented in Pagels’ book, it had a Jesus who did not claim any special divinity, and it lacked the misogyny that some find in Pauline Christianity (and, yes, Orthodox Judaism).
I support Israel as a homeland for the remnants of European Jewry, given that due to the racism of the first world, the land of the defeated German nation could not realistically be handed over as a new Jewish homeland. The result — a tiny new nation in a convenient spot without any “important people” to worry about — was yet another injustice piled onto the Holocaust and the world’s non-response to the Holocaust. I don’t know how Israel’s existence can be made compatible with the legitimate rights of the Palestinians, given that the Palestinians have not (as we would not have) yielded to the new arrivals. But I support Israel.
There are few things in modern politics that I find more disgusting than the first world’s plopping down of a homeland for remnants of Europe’s Jews in Israel/Palestine and then pompously calling those remnants “Nazis” because they would not politely die when the Palestinians fought to get their land back.
(I’ll stop, Eric. This will be my last comment on this thread. Just allow me to suck up to you a bit: Love your blog, adore posting here, you’re right about everything.)
December 23, 2011 at 10:55 am
Anonymous
you’re right about everything.)
NO WAY.
December 23, 2011 at 12:54 pm
Erasmus
I, too, Mitch, support the legitimate rights of the Palestinians, and that is why I wish they had accepted the UN partition of 1947, which would have provided them with a country — their very first. (The Kurds would have jumped at the opportunity!).– Well, they (and their Arab brothers) thought they could dispossess the Israelis and occupy the entire state (i.e., both countries) and keep the Jews as a minority (once again). They failed. — 19 years of wasted chances followed — a Palestinian state could have been created with the stroke of a pen … there was no Israeli occupation. — Jordan,meanwhile , (a country much larger than Israel) acquired a majority-Palestinian population. (So the Palestinians don’t have a state? Only if facts have no meaning.) — The sad history of the region from 1967 onward is too familiar to need repeating. — There has been a sizable Jewish presence in the Middle East for many centuries. Implying that the future citizens of Israel were dumped there by Europeans does a disservice to history. The Jews have more of a right to statehood in Israel than I do in America or the Aussies do down under.
December 24, 2011 at 10:19 am
Anonymous
Eric right about everything? ho ho ho ho
December 26, 2011 at 9:42 am
Percy
I have the answers to everything you seek, all of life’s mysteries, and can help all of you find your spiritual path, inner awareness or rebirth. Alas, I will need a small donation……
December 26, 2011 at 11:19 am
Eric Kirk
So my parents and brother came to visit for Christmas and we watched the film. It’s not hard to instigate a political argument in my family anyway (even though we are roughly near the same point on the political ideology continuum), but this one led to hours of discussion. Naturally they will show it to other members of the family later, and I expect to hear about it.
First off, my mother got so pissed off during the last segment dedicated to Irving Kristol’s final conversion, and lost patience when Jeanne Kirkpatrick’s mug came on to talk about Kristol’s intellectualism (simply to juxtapose that while Bell and Glazer thought that Kristol was abandoning intellectualism, there were still those in the trenches who thought Kristol was still singing from his ivory tower). She said basically that she’s spent too many years fighting the murder that these people have wrought to patiently listen to them pontificate intellectually about it. That there is a rational intellectual framework from which they can operate and justify fascinates me, but not her so much.
Naturally, my parents identified more with the new left cause in the OL/NL debate covered in the film. He did remember older leftists telling him that the demonstrations weren’t going to do any good without a clear popular front electoral strategy, yada, yada, yada – and like Tom Hayden arguing with Irving Howe, he felt like they were more apt to lecture than actually do anything. But he also identified with the elders’ resistance to overly-romanticized support for third world revolutions, and mindless oversweeping rhetoric.
But my father came up with something that I want to think about. His criticism of the NY Intellectuals is that while combining politics with cultural analysis and philosophy has definite virtue, it is limited in value absent the crucial dimension of science – something he criticized all political ideologies for. Marxism has made pretenses as “scientific socialism” while trying to frame “dialectical materialism” into some pseudo-scientific explanation of how everything in the universe works, it does not look to what we have learned about biology, environmental decline, behavior, and the workings of the mind to integrate and refine political ideology so that the universe isn’t so apathetic to it.
He makes a good point. Irving Howe talks about his fear of linear algebra and calculus in his interview, but I don’t remember too many hard science articles in any of the the publications at their intellectual hey day. I’ll have to look.
But we do know more about population issues, the limitations of material abundance (Marxism and classical free market ideologies are both premised on the assumption of unfettered abundance simply requiring proper exploitation), and most of all behavior. If Howe and Bell had the information which was beginning to be available at the time, he would have known that you really can’t teach a 20 year old anything he or she doesn’t want to learn (due to causes both sociological and biological), especially if you lecture or yell at them. You can only put ideas in front of them, entice and challenge them, and give them the opportunity to reach the conclusions you reached, hopefully at an earlier age.
My father has always been more impressed with people like Carl Sagan, Isaac Azimov, and E.O. Wilson than strictly humanities oriented political thinkers. The old left is still invested in Freud for instance, because they read Civilization and its Discontents as young people and it’s imprinted. Two elderly Trotskyists I know read the NY Review of Books and other papers regularly, and while they detest the politics of Irving Howe and the rest, they respect the literary criticism (it’s weird how some politically charged people can discuss science and literature with depth and nuance, but the minute the subject matter moves into politics, their eyes glaze over and their ideological autopilot kicks in – very true of lifelong left sectarians). But my father feels that the political/science overlapping is of more value, because by necessity it has to move forward and integrate changing realities, or changing understanding of old realities, into the mix. Sagan, for instance, proposed that the social improvements must come from experimentation – intentional communities and cooperative economic institutions – and those with the best models (and best ability to adapt) would survive, flourish, and expand, while those that didn’t would simply die on the vine. If you’re talking about “scientific socialism,” ironically it’s the more utopian ventures that have the best success. You need data points. You need to exclude variable factors. You need to draw hypothesis
and analyze them.
Again, I’m going to review some of the old Dissent articles. I have an anthology entitled “25 years of Dissent” which I’ve had on my shelf for two decades, but never cracked. It’s time. I will read them with my father’s question in mind.
December 26, 2011 at 11:33 am
Mitch
I said I wouldn’t comment, but if you’re going to show that batch of Jews to your parents and the world, you owe it to Jews everywhere to show this too:
December 26, 2011 at 12:19 pm
Erasmus
I don’t see how science — with the possible exception of ecology, and I’d like to underline ‘possible’ — is at all useful in political discussion. It’s an unfortunate fact that most universities call their ‘politics’ departments ‘political science,’ but most college graduates (I hope) are too savvy to fall for that self-serving language. — Darwinism proved to be heartless when imported into the world of politics, and a rigid ‘deep ecology’ could prove even more murderous.
December 26, 2011 at 1:13 pm
Anonymous
“That there is a rational intellectual framework from which they can operate and justify fascinates me, but not her so much.”
I bought two tickets on ebay for $200…was completely ripped off. I can sit around and think about the reasons the person does things like that, but it’s beside the point.
i’m curious, you describe political/philisophical/etc. imprinting via early exposure. Do you, eric, recognize your own imprinting, and what are they? I see polar politics dominating…you definitely play a left/right game. There’s absolutely no sense to discuss the “left” or the “right” whatsoever, having had to deconstruct my own imprinting (pretty universal in any day and age in the US). In all fact, most of our concrete ideas about “the way things are” are completely arbitrary. Math, for example, is as arbitrary as any language, yet people think math supercedes the human element that invented it. bla bla bla….
December 26, 2011 at 2:11 pm
Mitch
Science is not a few men in lab coats running expensive machines.
Science is the process by which hypotheses are confirmed or refuted by available evidence, in public, with anyone able to present evidence or invalidate evidence already presented. It makes a very bold statement: “it doesn’t matter how smart, rich or pretty you are; your evidence will be examined by the interested community on its merits, not your popularity.” That is, of course, the ideal.
Science is democracy.
“Survival of the fittest” is not science; it is a bumpersticker. It has zero relevance to politics and is, in fact, a tautology. It does not say “survival of the best.” It says “survival of those most able to survive.” It’s not a moral judgement, it’s an explanation. It does not say it’s good, bad, or indifferent — it explains organisms which have natural variability evolve to fit the evolving environment.
It is scientific illiteracy that allows science and politics to be abused by people like “social Darwinists” or “tobacco defenders.” The sort of scientist that might end up in a legislative body might bring arrogance and hubris, but that’s not the fault of science.
December 26, 2011 at 2:20 pm
Mitch
“Deep ecology” is not science — it is a statement of values. AFAIK, a “deep ecologist” asserts that organisms (“lilies,” for example) have value independent of their usefulness to humankind (they “neither toil nor spin”.)
That is not science; it is a religious/spiritual/ethical statement. Until lilies can speak for themselves in courts of law, we have no evidence regarding their value independent of their usefulness. Yes, they’re pretty — that’s a form of usefulness to humankind. But deep ecology states lilies would still have identical value even if they were not clothed in glory. It states, in the ideal, that humans have no business destroying things.
It is not unreasonable that as science reveals more and more about the intricacies of the web of life in which we find ourselves embedded, the values embodied in deep ecology may seem to become more and more reasonable.
In my opinion, that would be a good thing.
December 26, 2011 at 3:15 pm
Anonymous
I agree with the jist of that, mitch. Political philosophy is also bunk, every action by government should be strictly per immediate need. The problem we’re in right now (to say the least) is the length of time SPECIFIC PEOPLE have been conspiring to deceive and murder to achieve as much control as possible. It’s a disease, a sickness…just about nobody rapes or murders eachother through aggression. Only an extremely tiny portion of the population acts on such impulses. People are naturally passive and practice live and let live. The diseased people are in control, and they manipulate the behavior of others. A large way they do that is to have us believe “we” are out to get eachother…as if their own psychology is the norm.
December 26, 2011 at 3:42 pm
Eric Kirk
Well, a few points. Basically, without some science within the intellectual framework, humanities oriented people who take over risk more Lysenkos. But it’s more fundamental than integrating it into a political program. The point is that these magazines don’t discuss science. It’s not on the radar. The New Yorker will. Even to some extent Nation and In These Times. Partisan Review did not. I don’t know about Dissent.
The point is that if you seek a holistic view of the world, you can’t completely avoid the dimension of science. And I don’t sense that the left bohemian intellectuals, of any stripe, have exhibited as a whole even a curiosity in it. And therefor, when the issues come up, they are unequipped to deal with it except at the literary/political critique level.
Example. Some basic feminist assumptions about the behavioral differences between men and women have been trashed by certain developments in science. The framework of rejection doesn’t incorporate science, but is instead based on political critique, as in “the conclusions reached imply such and such, and we cannot accept that implication and believe in the equality of the sexes” to put it in vulgar terms. Fortunately some, like Barbara Ehrenreich and Carl Sagan, were curious enough to learn the science, but retain feminism as a value system, and proposed a more complex science than offered by conventional sociobiology. It’s very dangerous terrain to traverse without a scientific framework, and you have to approach it with a mind open enough to accept conclusions, true or false, which may be uncomfortable – as in, is there a biological basis for male dominance and female submission, or are they merely “social constructions?”
The left intelligentsia without a framework can’t accept that there is a biology to the question any more than homophobes can accept that there is a biology to homosexuality. It infers not just inevitability, but a sense that forms of oppression are “natural” and therefor should not be changed. And it seems to surrender to an inevitability not palatable to someone with progressive values.
But with a science background, even a minimal one, you can first of all challenge the assumptions about the data which may fail to ask why there are submissive tendencies in men and dominant tendencies in women which we exhibit in everyday life. The right wing sociobiologist, having believed to have discovered a natural basis for sexism, just assumes, unscientifically, that the occurrences of what I’ll call “reverse dominance/submission” for this context, are merely “social constructions.” Except that they won’t use that term, because of implications they want to avoid. And when most of the agenda-suppressed science reveals that each human organism is governed by a large and complex web of instincts, impulses, and conditioned behavior, it becomes simplistic to pick and choose which impulses appear to be natural, when the conclusions are based on conventionality of what is viewed as natural – as if the 1950s represents some paragon by which society had been in tune with nature.
Which brings us to the key point, which is that even if we did determine that biology somehow reinforces oppressive tendencies, whether sexist or other forms, it’s really irrelevant anyway, because in many ways civilization in general is a rebellion against nature – that maybe our nature is more prone to fascist, racist, sexist, or simply barbaric existence, we have set norms and values by which ritual, tradition, and cognition can overwhelm them and create a new reality, and suggest that maybe it’s much easier to establish sexual egalitarianism than it is to suppress sexual activity of teenagers.
Erasmus – that certainly would not amount to deep ecology, since the desire of any ideology is to believe that it is in tune with the fundamental workings of the universe.
Anyway, that will be the subject of my reading. How do the NY Intellectuals and others like them deal with science which generates uncomfortable inferences?
I bought two tickets on ebay for $200…was completely ripped off. I can sit around and think about the reasons the person does things like that, but it’s beside the point.
As for the rejection of survival of the fittest, well, if Lysenko had not rejected it, millions of Soviets might not have starved.
I think politics is different because reasonable minds can differ. It’s doubtful (though possible) that the individual had noble reasons for ripping you off. But once can have noble reasons for adopting a conservative ideology. I don’t buy into the opportunism argument. It may have been a factor in Kristol’s transformation, but I don’t think it’s that simple.
Still, I hear you. It can be frustrating to listen to, just as it is no doubt frustrating to conservatives to hear Kevin Phillips espousing social democracy decades after he helped to engineer the Nixon win over Humphrey.
i’m curious, you describe political/philisophical/etc. imprinting via early exposure. Do you, eric, recognize your own imprinting, and what are they? I see polar politics dominating…you definitely play a left/right game. There’s absolutely no sense to discuss the “left” or the “right” whatsoever, having had to deconstruct my own imprinting (pretty universal in any day and age in the US). In all fact, most of our concrete ideas about “the way things are” are completely arbitrary. Math, for example, is as arbitrary as any language, yet people think math supercedes the human element that invented it. bla bla bla….
Yes, I do recognize it, and I endeavor, with mixed results, to transcend it. I don’t think anyone can completely transcend our biases and imprinting, nor the ideas we have vested so much emotional energy into. But it’s in the earnest attempts that magical things happen.
As for “left” and “right,” I think it’s a useful model of understanding politics, with limitations. I’ve discussed it in much more detail and from many different angles. However, while there are many phenomenon which are too complex to predict, we do have some useful frameworks to predict the impacts of ideology. But maybe if you tell me how you understand the “left/right” model, we can start from there.
As for whether math is “as arbitrary as any other language,” I might agree with you if I knew what it meant. Unfortunately, it sounds to me so much like the liberal arts students in college who read maybe the Tao of Science or the Dancing Woo Lee Masters and then thought themselves experts in quantum physics when they really didn’t get the point of the model of Shroedinger’s Cat nor its implications for science. Some elements of math may be arbitrary. Other’s not.
December 26, 2011 at 3:44 pm
anon
t
December 26, 2011 at 3:44 pm
Eric Kirk
Mitch – love the video. Do they have one for Yom Kippur?
I think Howe would be proud. Maybe Kristol too.
December 26, 2011 at 3:53 pm
Eric Kirk
Anonymous 3:15 – so who exactly are “they” who are diseased and whatnot?
I actually believe that there are many in power who really believe they are doing the right thing. And that’s more problematic than any disease. The assumption that people are naturally passive is also a mistake. To a certain degree, the status quo is maintained because the majority are satisfied with it. And that’s something that progressives have a very hard time accepting, because it suggests that action is going to be useless until more people are convinced of the action’s virtue and support it.
December 26, 2011 at 4:45 pm
Mitch
113:
“Math, for example, is as arbitrary as any language, yet people think math supercedes the human element that invented it. bla bla bla…”
Just noticed this statement. Oh, come on! You can use that philosophical argument against science and come off sounding like maybe you know something, but to use it against math?
Birds and primates have a sense of number already. Math is what you get when you study where that sense leads. Perhaps the choice of paths that have been explored has been arbitrary, but the results are anything but.
Eric, I’m glad you enjoyed the Maccabeats. I think they have a number for Rosh Hashana, but Yom Kippur would be, well, hard. I’m hearing a capella Stravinsky. They’re at http://www.maccabeats.com.
That cover of a cover of Taio Cruz’ Dynamite has had more than 6 million views. The original cover (by Mike Tompkins at http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=qjCLQaTFXx0) has had more than 10 million views.
The internet is remarkable.
December 26, 2011 at 8:49 pm
Bolithio
Thank you guys for the interesting ideas.
Kirk, your part about our rebellion from nature, I think about allot. To fully embrace science, you have to be able to discover and accept some uncomfortable truths. When I consider our evolutionary history, and our sudden and radical departure from our past 99% of our existence, I really have a hard time believing that we have any real handle on how to govern ourselves. In theory, as we continue to wake-up, we should be able to refine our cultural efficiency as to always improve. Yet we remain prone to long periods of retrogression. At this time, with my understanding of the world, I have to believe that ‘science’ is our best chance for the future.
December 26, 2011 at 9:20 pm
Anonymous
I disagree completely, bolithio. The 99% of history you speak of had 99% less “science”. It’s common sense, less is more. Less is sustainable. All we need is very little, but we are conditioned from birth to believe in all we are surrounded by. Your own personal livelihood would be impossible if you didn’t somehow believe local “timber” industry is somehow “green”. Obviously, if the forests weren’t being chopped up and complete restoration were implemented, things would improve. That process could begin tomorrow. You can talk circles around it, in your heart you know it’s true. You absolutely have to believe that in working for the “timber” industry, you are doing something good. You also can’t talk shit about the industry. You simply don’t. If you realy cared, you would focus on all that is fucked up about it, but you don’t. You do the opposite. You’re a cheerleader, an internet PR chump.
“Our” best chance for the future is a moratorium on more more more, which is entirely not up to us, as in you or I, proven by all of the you’s and I’s of today and history. First world society as we know it is the brainchild of greedy powermongers exploiting you’s and I’s at maximum. They’re in it for themselves, not us. “We” owe it to eachother to acknowledge “them”, that as “we” become increasingly desperate, “we” understand why.
December 26, 2011 at 9:41 pm
Anonymous
haha, mitch, I knew you’d jump on the math thing. Yes, math is completely arbitrary, it’s a very long discussion that I’ve engaged in countless times over the years, no simple way to sum it up, but that numbers only exist in the mind of the human beholder. Animals don’t see two things, they see the one thing that we divide. Give me an example of animal behavior based on math and I’ll gladly elaborate.
December 26, 2011 at 10:16 pm
Anonymous
“I think politics is different because reasonable minds can differ. It’s doubtful (though possible) that the individual had noble reasons for ripping you off. But once can have noble reasons for adopting a conservative ideology. I don’t buy into the opportunism argument. It may have been a factor in Kristol’s transformation, but I don’t think it’s that simple.”
I guess my point is, I only had to think about it once…ever thereafter, it becomes an encapsulated post script within a bigger understanding…I don’t have to think about why not to shoplift…been there, done that…”beating a dead horse” is the catch phrase…like the friend who tells you the same anecdote over and over and over, every time something seems relevant among what’s happening at the moment.
December 27, 2011 at 7:10 am
Bolithio
Anon, you completely missed my point, which was about our ‘rebellion from nature’ as Erik put it. We have a 100K+ year evolutionary history, which we have divorced ourselves from in the last 3000 or so years. As such, the behavioral tendencies of our species has ‘quarks’ that are hard to understand or explain without that evolutionary context. Science allows us to explain why we may have these tendencies (such as inequality of the sexes) and make better choices for our ethics in our culture (e.g. feminism).
no simple way to sum it up lol, isnt that math?
For the record, I do criticize my industry, which is a green industry. Find me in the next thread about forestry/logging and we’ll talk about it. =)
December 27, 2011 at 8:23 am
Mitch
9:41,
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=how-animals-have-the-ability-to-count
December 27, 2011 at 12:12 pm
Anonymous
ah geez mitch, that’s not math, that’s noticing something missing, like if you lost your foot you’d know you were missing “one” foot. The monkey example in that article is the same deal…it wants the koolaid, it doesn’t comprehend math, but the image of a thing that gets the koolaide. They don’t exhibit “math” by themselves whatsoever, they don’t need it whatsoever. Math is language, nothing more. There is stuff, then using language to describe the stuff, math is our language for specific activities. Again, numbers don’t exist anywhere whatsoever…they’re an entirely human concept.
Bolithio, you’re a cheerleader for the tree cutters nothing more. I don’t care to discuss it with you, I’ve read your tripe for years. It’s like my point above…I don’t need to think about why somebody would ripe people off on ebay anymore. I’ll call a ripoff artist a ripoff artist when I encounter one.
December 27, 2011 at 12:51 pm
Anonymous
…mitch, consider pi. An “irrational” number (yet how can there be a numerical paradox?) such that it needed it’s own name (language). Zero is similar. You can’t have “one” thing that is “no” thing. Likewise, you can’t have “two” things that isn’t “one” thing of “two”. It’s not deep, it’s really simple. Math, like science, is human language for human activity.
December 27, 2011 at 1:18 pm
Bolithio
Thanks Mitch. We seem to constantly be discovering that things we assume to be just human, are not. Agriculture for instance, widely believed to be discovered only by humans, is now known to also have been discovered by ants:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/01/030120100451.htm
December 27, 2011 at 2:16 pm
Mitch
“numbers don’t exist anywhere whatsoever…they’re an entirely human concept.”
There’s a famous quote from a German mathematician that “god created the integers, all else is the work of man.” You’ve taken it even farther.
I challenge you to draw a circle where pi does not correspond to the ratio of diameter to circumference. I challenge you to demonstrate continuous growth where e does not come into play.
that’s not math, that’s noticing something missing
Noticing something missing IS one of the foundations of modern math: it’s the concept of zero, which took humans a long time to grace with a symbol. I’m still in awe of whoever it was that first drew an empty circle to visualize the previously hard-to-conceive idea of nothing at all being a quantity, like a half dozen eggs.
Your disparagement of animal understanding of number carries on a long history of humans refusing to acknowledge behavior as intelligent once it is exhibited by animals or computational devices.
Sure, we have developed more and more complex concepts, and the symbols we happen to use are arbitrary. But that doesn’t make the concepts arbitrary. They are as baked into the known universe as anything can be baked in.
If I’m religious about anything, I’m religious about this. The idea that finding two lengths that can NEVER be represented by whole multiples of a single smaller length is as simple as drawing the diagonal of a square is my constant reminder that the world is enormously more complex and interesting than might be obvious at the surface. Similarly, the unbelievable complexity and beauty of representations of the Mandelbrot set, which can be defined in only a sentence or two, is a modern equivalent. We see and know very little compared to what is out there — math is the proof.
December 27, 2011 at 2:18 pm
Anonymous
Here is a Dissent article on science Eric. Brought to you by the awesome power of Google.
http://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/?article=372
December 27, 2011 at 2:31 pm
Mitch
Incidentally, although 12:51 probably already knows this, I’m compelled to point out that “irrational” is just an unfortunate choice of words for the concept I mentioned above — two quantities that cannot both be represented as whole multiples of a smaller whole number. Literally, it means you can’t come up with a ratio for the two numbers; thus they are a-rational or ir-rational.
A number representing such a relationship, like pi or the square root of 2, is not a paradox, though our unfortunate choice of language might make it sound so. It’s just surprising, at first, to realize that the whole numbers and fractions we are taught as children are not particularly representative of quantities in the actual world.
December 27, 2011 at 3:25 pm
Bolithio
Whats more, I am always surprised at how people will abandon science in favor of their pre-held misconceptions about the world. Ive already decided that math only fits into the box i made for it. I have decided all logging is bad. Therefore, anyone who believes otherwise is either irrational or a cheerleader.
I blame religion for perpetuating this kind of thinking in mankind. The scientific process forces us to accept failure and change our ideas. It allows us to step outside of our own personal bias’s and explore the world more creatively. If we continuously reject this model of thinking, we are only extending the stagnation of our species, and likely at great cost for us and all that depends on us to get it right.
December 27, 2011 at 3:35 pm
Anonymous
“I challenge you to draw a circle where pi does not correspond to the ratio of diameter to circumference.”
That’s actually part of the point…mathematically, the number is infinite…an exception, thus, it gets it’s own. Where did the need for pi come from? Somebody gave “it” a specific label for specific activity. Math is just like language, basically a categorical and compound labeling system. Same with continuous growth and “e”. The sun rises over there, and sets over there….sun + rise = sunrise. sun + set = senset. sunset + sunrise = day. day x 7 = week…observational labeling, nothing more. There’s nothing saying a day can’t end when the sun is at it’s highest point, or that the year doesn’t end on april 1st, or that “april” even has to exist. Calendars are great examples of how arbitrary math can be.
“But that doesn’t make the concepts arbitrary. They are as baked into the known universe as anything can be baked in.”
But it’s not a matter of which came first, the chicken or the egg…it’s that the universe came way way way first, and humans have labeled very specific activity within it “math”. I absolutely know animals to be intelligent, they animalize us as we anthropomorphise them, but that’s it. We can immitate their sounds and behavior to elicit specific response just as they do us. We can “bond” emotionally and otherwise. Only a human, however, would call a dog choosing to eat the larger steak instead of the smaller steak “math”. Only a human would call a dog’s curiosity as to where his stolen steak went “math”. Humans are animals, before we were taught “math” we behaved “mathematically”, as humans who have adopted that otherwise arbitrary language call it.
Dont’ even get me started on fractals…as best as the universe can be described with language is fractalinear. Everything is fractalinear, including time. Psychedellics have proven it to me through and through, I’d challenge you to eat a quarter ounce of magic mushrooms, contemplate the universe and argue otherwise thereafter.
“We see and know very little compared to what is out there — math is the proof.”
People looked at what we now call “pi” for a very very very very long time before shrugging and calling the thing they were looking at (and for) “pi”. Such is all math. The scientific concept of the cat in the box. Is the cat dead or alive? until the box is opened to reveal the cat, it is both dead and alive. Why does the popular anecdote have to be dead or alive? can’t it be black or white? or a dog or a cat? part of the arbitrary rule that is the absolute fractal of interpretation. If the universe is infinite (which I believe it to be, common sense) then there’s nothing saying your left shoe isn’t the center of the universe, and that everything revolves around your shoe. A model of the universe based on your left shoe being the center of the universe could easily be created, but everybody would have to agree to that arbitrary conclusion, just as they do the rules of language and math.
December 27, 2011 at 3:41 pm
Anonymous
“I have decided all logging is bad. Therefore, anyone who believes otherwise is either irrational or a cheerleader.”
No, YOU are a cheerleader and THE COMPANIES YOU WORK FOR are bad. Specific words for specific activities, using the arbitrary language we mutually agree upon.
December 27, 2011 at 4:35 pm
Eric Kirk
Where did the need for pi come from?
It’s not a question of need. It represents the mathematical constant for a perfect circle whether we need it or not. And that was woven into the universe itself. It is independent of our conceptualization, and apathetic to our “need.”
And pi is not infinite. It’s irrational.
December 27, 2011 at 4:42 pm
Anonymous
“But maybe if you tell me how you understand the “left/right” model, we can start from there.”
It’s completely contrived to distract people from what’s really going on politically. There are specific people who call shots. The private does what the general says without question. Nepotism among greedy powermongers spans centuries through today. Love him or hate him (left/right) Al Gore had more votes than GW. GW was president. Why is it yesterday’s news? Because everybody’s been conditioned to shortsightedness largely based on left/right baloney.
December 27, 2011 at 4:53 pm
Anonymous
“It’s not a question of need. It represents the mathematical constant for a perfect circle whether we need it or not. And that was woven into the universe itself. It is independent of our conceptualization, and apathetic to our “need.”
And pi is not infinite. It’s irrational.”
I’m afraid pi was a matter of need, otherwise nobody would have invented it. Somebody needed to have a mathematical way of talking about circles. It is an invention, a label. Somebody told me pi, I have no need for it. I don’t disagree with it, but my life could go on just the same if pi was five. The number is indeed infinite, therefore irrational. Pi isn’t five, or it would be five. Do you know the George Carlin Joke about scientists discovering a new number, Bleen?
December 27, 2011 at 4:58 pm
Anonymous
http://6-bleen-7.livejournal.com/1075.html
December 27, 2011 at 5:22 pm
tra
“Psychedellics have proven it to me through and through, I’d challenge you to eat a quarter ounce of magic mushrooms, contemplate the universe and argue otherwise thereafter.”
Oh, well then.
December 27, 2011 at 6:05 pm
suzy blah blah
You can’t have “one” thing that is “no” thing. Likewise, you can’t have “two” things that isn’t “one” thing of “two”. It’s not deep, it’s really simple. Math, like science, is human language for human activity.
-well said. There is no zero. One is the only “number”. Math is nothing but an abstraction. Science is the religion of our time.
The scientific process forces us to accept failure and change our ideas. It allows us to step outside of our own personal bias’s
-youve got that backwards, science makes us step in to bias.
If I’m religious about anything, I’m religious about this. The idea that finding two lengths that can NEVER be represented by … yadda yadda yadda
-yep. (suzys emphasis)
December 27, 2011 at 6:52 pm
Bolithio
as best as the universe can be described with language is fractalinear
LMFAO
So you form your worldview from your intuitive thought process while on drugs while rejecting a thousand years of collective human intelligence. Brilliant! And we wonder why we cant advance progressive ideas in our society!!!
December 27, 2011 at 7:26 pm
Anonymous
“-well said. There is no zero. One is the only “number”. Math is nothing but an abstraction. Science is the religion of our time”
‘zacly. The “one” (math, numbers) versus the “zero” (to be ignorant of the language of math, conveniently symbolized as 0, a circle…a sought-after integer to which no single existing number could conclude, as by all prescribed language the number proceeds into infinity, thus it received it’s own number altogether, pi, described in fact as a formula to begin following the infinite line of integers that follow the nearest “total” single “number” that is symbolized as “3″ and written as “three”…followed by what was already a deciding integer differential at the time, the decimal/fraction system….
…etc. etc. etc…it’s a mathematical equation in itself, where you want to draw the “dividing line” between cause and consequence…hence it’s arbitrary. What you’re doing is what you’re doing…nothing else.
We all learned “math” in progressive stages at school, is it any surprise you now behold it as an absolute truth, integral with the entire universe as it exists without question?
December 27, 2011 at 7:41 pm
Anonymous
Bolithio, math began when somebody told you what it was and convinced you it was true. When we do what we call “die”, is when this hairless ape shell of activity permanently changes as we individually choose to know it, regardless of what anybody says. As our consciousness came into this universe that we mutually agree upon is entirely up to us to say as well. “Math” starts somewhere, it’s “1″…the first “number”. By its own definition, numbers span forever, having created the “irrational” number, “infinity”, to describe that which can’t be concluded by any number within the existing set. Sub categories of infinity have been created, like “pi”…they are “irrational”. If we were young before we were old, “math” started as a game, a sequence to follow…our choice in matters to begin with.
You say math rules the universe? Good for you, math head, all hooked on math. I must be some crazy freak to see something entirely different going on, and that’s how “math” is being used. It’s a game and it’s a tool. Human beings survive to this day without any concept of “math”.
December 27, 2011 at 8:12 pm
Mitch
3:35,
A model of the universe based on your left shoe being the center of the universe could easily be created, but everybody would have to agree to that arbitrary conclusion, just as they do the rules of language and math.
Yes, choosing a reference point as the center of an infinite space is completely arbitrary, just as using a greek letter to represent the ratio between circumference and diameter is arbitrary. But the examples don’t match: although there is no center to an infinite space, meaning that your choice of reference point is indeed arbitrary, there is genuinely a ratio we’ve called pi, and if you want to understand cyclic behavior, you have to use it, by whatever name you choose. You can change the name but you can’t change the rules.
Try legislating pi to be a convenient number like 3 (as a state legislature supposedly tried to do once) and you rapidly run up against the same issue as the Russians and Lysenko: you can force people to agree with you, using force, eloquence, money, or by manipulating our herding instinct, but that simply doesn’t make you right.
That’s completely fine as long as you are dealing with issues like when Noah’s Ark was first lifted by the flood, or whether an invisible, immaterial soul enters the egg at conception or the body at birth, but if you are trying to interact with the actual physical universe, you’ll find things falling apart if you don’t choose the value that actually corresponds to the way things are.
suzy wrote,
“yadda yadda yadda”
Yabba dabba doo, suzy. Yabba dabba doo.
December 27, 2011 at 8:23 pm
suzy blah blah
Yabba dabba doo, suzy. Yabba dabba doo.
-not only is Mitch narrow minded and full of bs, he’s a pompous ass about it.
December 27, 2011 at 8:47 pm
Anonymous
” there is genuinely a ratio we’ve called pi, and if you want to understand cyclic behavior, you have to use it, by whatever name you choose. You can change the name but you can’t change the rules.”
That’s a bunch of religious dogma (and irony!) if such a thing exists. Ultimately, we’re on the same page.
December 28, 2011 at 10:11 am
Ernie's Place
I’ve really been enjoying the scientific discussion. Having a rather simple mind, I try to reduce things to concepts that I can understand. 1/3 expressed as 1/3 is perfect. When you try to convert 1/3 to something that it is not, like a decimal equivalent. .333333… ad infinitum, it falls apart. You can’t express 1/3 as elephants either. So, you either have to accept that at some point you are close enough for all practical purposes, our use real values. Sometimes decimals are close enough.
Pi expressed as Pi is accurate, when it is expressed as a decimal, it is not. No amount of magic mushrooms will change that.
December 28, 2011 at 10:58 am
Eric Kirk
I’m afraid pi was a matter of need, otherwise nobody would have invented it. Somebody needed to have a mathematical way of talking about circles. It is an invention, a label. Somebody told me pi, I have no need for it. I don’t disagree with it, but my life could go on just the same if pi was five. The number is indeed infinite, therefore irrational. Pi isn’t five, or it would be five. Do you know the George Carlin Joke about scientists discovering a new number, Bleen?
You know, again, humanities majors really ought to stay out of the discussion. But if pi was “invented,” then let’s just change the value to 3 and see how that works. It’s our number after all. Or 5 as you say. I doubt your life could go on just the same if the tires on your vehicle were engineered by using that value for pi. Your life would become quite interesting in a hurry.
And infinity refers to numerical value, not how long it would take to write out a number in base 10 language.
December 28, 2011 at 11:12 am
suzy blah blah
“math” started as a game, a sequence to follow
-exactly, math may be a handy and practical concept within a limited structure, but humanity has forgotten that its just a game. Pi is not “real”. It’s not truth. It’s nothing but a cold abstraction.
December 28, 2011 at 11:18 am
Anonymous
“You know, again, humanities majors really ought to stay out of the discussion. But if pi was “invented,” then let’s just change the value to 3 and see how that works. It’s our number after all.”
In all fact, you can call pi whatever you want…see how arbitrary it is? But it’s not your number, you didn’t invent it or the number system that preceded it, in which it’s based. Somebody imprinted you with a belief that the thing they call math isn’t an abstract. Do you remember kindergarten? First, we were taught the number system….count 1-10…11 to be explained a little later. Simultaneously, we learned the alphabet, recite a-z….we were taught (though we didn’t necessarily have to believe it) that letters were not numbers, although like numbers they were written in different patterns for different purposes. I have no need for pi, do you? Make mine apple, hot and ala mode, please and thank you!
December 28, 2011 at 11:24 am
Mitch
This is sad, but not surprising. I think the problem may be a failure to understand the difference between math, science, and engineering.
Pi is actually Lord, suzy. It’s not a cold abstraction; it is the source from which we derive our sustenance, the fractalinear center of our infinitudinous ethics.
Next to pi, your gods are impotent.
The only reason you don’t see the power of pi is you were born in the wrong church, and our church doesn’t distribute “Pi is My Co-pilot” bumper stickers for free.
December 28, 2011 at 11:49 am
Bolithio
Speaking of Pi, have any of you seen that movie? Its a good watch!
December 28, 2011 at 11:53 am
Anonymous
“This is sad, but not surprising. I think the problem may be a failure to understand the difference between math, science, and engineering.”
So, to come to believe in this supposed absolute that is math, there are more information institutes to which I must subscribe and surrender my greatest understandings of the universe? No thanks!
This man came into the jungle, he pointed to the Suhn and said “Pye”…he pointed at an apple and said “Pye”…he held up a rock in his hand and said “Wun” and held up another rock with his other hand and said “Tu”. Then he put the rocks together and said “Tu”. Then he pointed to the electric pyramid beyond the jungle, and I later came to realize he had been born of its master’s beliefs. Everybody within the electric pyramid believed in Pye. Then they chained me to a table and made me memorize their beliefs, starting with etched symbols. Now I’m a file clerk in the electric pyramid, and those who don’t believe in its masters’ way of doing things are fast disappearing from the face of the planet.
“Look, Winthrop! The savage demonstrates an understanding of math! Good thing Bartholamewel isn’t here, he’d kill it without further study! Some say the savages are people, but look at them! They don’t even wear clothes!”
December 28, 2011 at 12:12 pm
suzy blah blah
Pi is actually Lord, suzy. It’s not a cold abstraction; it is the source from which we derive our sustenance, Next to pi, your gods are impotent.
-just because you believe in it doesnt make your pi in the sky a source from which suzy derives sustenance. It may be the center of your so called religious feelings, it may be the center of your world, but its not the center of mine. So dont power trip me with it. I dont buy your bias. You may be a true believer, but only a narrow minded manikin would call pi the Lord.
Which is all fine and good, its when you act as though your “religion” is the only true one, or when you make it the dominant one, when you think that your beliefs are the Truth. Thats when the problem comes in. Its when people are so brainwashed by their “religion” that they call something abstract a reality. When they think of pi as an absolute. And especially when, like you, they go on and on about the “truth” of it or the “beauty” or the religious feelings they get from meditating on it. And when they pompously condescend to others who dont see things their way. Then their religion has become their ego trip. And when they have the overweening presumptuousness to call the little box that they cant think outside of, the truth of the Universe, they have become a real menace. Mitch, your as full of bullshit and as full of yourself as the blog is long.
.
December 28, 2011 at 12:28 pm
Mitch
suzy,
I’m at peace, and I send you pi’s love. Once you’ve really studied the full first thousand or so digits, you begin to get it. I understand not everyone is ready, and I just want you to know that’s ok.
December 28, 2011 at 12:31 pm
Mitch
I send you groovy greetings from pi:
December 28, 2011 at 12:40 pm
suzy blah blah
-luckily not everyone’s “ready” for Mitch’s brainwashing. Happily not everyone can be dominated by his academic ruler. Unfortunately his “peace” is one of cold abstractions, lacking any emotion or human warmth. Unfortunately he has to keep puffing himself up with his belief in hallucinations like “pi’s peace” etc.to make himself feel anything. But worst of all, he then, from within his little narrow-minded nook, has the effrontery to send “love”. What a total ass.
December 28, 2011 at 12:44 pm
Mitch
Know you are forgiven, suzy. Pi never holds a grudge, and I try to live in his footsteps.
December 28, 2011 at 12:52 pm
Anonymous
Mitch, Eric, Bolithi, Ernie…”mathies”…if nothing else, answer me this question…
If the mudball we’re stuck to exploded and humans were no more, would math still exist? All of you are going to recite religious dogma! “Math is everywhere, you just have to open your eyes to it! It’s not something you question, it just is!”
I believe in music. You might tell me my sounds aren’t music, or that if I somehow “open my mind” to your sounds, I would hear music when I otherwise don’t.
Would you believe I’m very good at math? Very slow, but accurate. It’s entirely memorization, because it’s a specific invented labeling system that is applied to specific problem solving. Mathematics…”math” is completely arbitrary. You can apply math to anything, all the time. Therefore, you don’t have to apply it at all. Here’s a riddle the advanced math class received when I was in highschool…
You’re on a gameshow and there are 3 doors before you, only 1 of which opens to reveal a prize. What are the odds you choose the correct door? Now let’s say you choose a door and it’s opened and it’s the wrong door…no prize. The gameshow host gives you another shot and let’s you choose between the 2 remaining closed doors. What are your odds of choosing the correct door now?
December 28, 2011 at 1:32 pm
suzy blah blah
-Mitch doesnt believe in a personal god, but he has religious feelings about a mathematical formula. That says it all.
December 28, 2011 at 1:39 pm
Mitch
I believe in one God,
But then I believe in three.
I’ll believe in twenty gods
If they’ll believe in me.
That’s a pact. Shake on that. No taking back.
–Leonard Bernstein, Mass
http://www.bsomusic.org/main.taf?p=6,1,2,1,3
December 28, 2011 at 1:51 pm
Bolithio
Human beings survive to this day without any concept of “math”.
While that’s easily dis-proven, lets run with that concept for a moment. Math, and science, are tools we have developed to better our future (and immediate lives). This makes us a very interesting species in that portions of our tribe are trying to improve conditions for our offspring, and other organisms on this planet, knowing that they will be long dead when their discoveries or actions are realized.
If most of man lives only for today, and for their individual immediate needs, than no, they dont need science or math to drive their decisions. And the price we pay is what we are continuously mitigating in today’s world. The era of empire and pioneerism is over. Why extend the suffering when we know we can do better (though careful study). The tune-in drop-out mentality is an interesting philosophical exercise, but it fails to meet the obligations we have for future generations, and our fellow man now.
December 28, 2011 at 2:03 pm
suzy blah blah
Math, and science, are tools we have developed to better our future
-we may be able to bungle on for another 100yrs or so before we find that science’s “tools” and inventions have brought total devastation to the planet –bringing our “good life” to a permanent end.
December 28, 2011 at 2:14 pm
Mitch
Bolithio,
It’s always seemed to me that some people, seeing first-hand the disastrous mess that our technological society has made, blame the knowledge instead of the actors.
Some people take it so far that they decide math is not relevant and science is evil. You, Bolithio, work for the evildoers and so, of course, every thought you have, every tool you use, is evil. It’s a nice, simplifying assumption.
For someone who grew up not liking or understanding the math taught in schools, I’m sure it’s quite gratifying to decide that math is without real value, just cold abstraction. The really clever folks, these self-certified really clever folks decide, realize it’s all just human construction just awaiting their deconstruction project; only the fools think there’s anything real to it.
There’s definitely irony in all of this.
No scientist considers themselves fully educated without a background in many things unrelated to science or math. Yet many non-scientists, in the name of open-mindedness, have no problem trashing scientists and their vocations without making the slightest effort to understand the process.
Some study science out of pure intellectual curiosity. Others study science with the hope of making a contribution to human knowledge that will solve people’s problems. Most probably have some mix of both motivations, but few are motivated by money, let alone a desire to dominate others.
December 28, 2011 at 2:15 pm
Bolithio
Right, that good old life when we died from simple wounds, lived to be 35 if we were lucky and where at the complete whim of climate and the environment. No thanks, the garden is highly romanticized.
December 28, 2011 at 2:24 pm
Eric Kirk
I like this scene.
Fibonacci numbers – “the fingerprint of God”
December 28, 2011 at 2:25 pm
Mitch
Anon 12:52,
If the mudball we’re stuck to exploded and humans were no more, would math still exist?
Let me modify your question to more accurately reflect what I think you mean. Can we settle on “if there were no sentient beings in the universe, would math still exist?”
Yes, of course. The particles of the universe would continue going about their business. They don’t care whether we are around to watch. The way in which they go about their business reflects mathematical reality. It reflected that reality long before there were any humans around, and it will reflect that reality long after the last human has died.
You alluded earlier to Schrodinger’s cat. The lack of an observer might mean that things would never settle to states that (were an observer present) the observer could report. But the particles will go about their business, observer or no.
And, who knows, maybe the universe itself is sentient, in which case you can’t have a universe without an observer. Either way, it’s not about us.
December 28, 2011 at 2:26 pm
Mitch
Sorry if I left you in italics-world, Eric. Although maybe that’s appropriate.
December 28, 2011 at 2:38 pm
Eric Kirk
Either way, it’s not about us.
That is a core point here. The human-centric view of the universe. We have the power to weave circles into the fabric of the universe (because they never existed until we invented pi) is awesome.
I remember my mother coming home from college when I was very young. Her class had hosted a guest who argued that none of reality as we know it is real, but rather a collective illusion created by our minds. She replied that once he changed his first diaper he would learn just how real the universe is.
December 28, 2011 at 2:40 pm
suzy blah blah
It reflected that reality long before there were any humans around, and it will reflect that reality long after the last human has died.
-reflect to who?
December 28, 2011 at 2:53 pm
Mitch
Anon 11:53,
“So, to come to believe in this supposed absolute that is math, there are more information institutes to which I must subscribe and surrender my greatest understandings of the universe? No thanks!”
No. You needn’t subscribe or surrender. You’ve actually already got it; it’s not about the labels Unh and Tu, or even the Lord Pi. It’s that there is a series of rules that the observable universe follows with complete consistency, and for a long time, humans have been discovering those rules. Humans don’t create those rules, we just create the labels in the languages we use to discuss the rules.
Nobody is trying to boss anyone around, but the rules are out there for anyone who cares to invest their time in learning about them.
Are they incomplete? Yes — actually, as it happens, they are incomplete by definition. And that’s another of the incredibly interesting and potentially humbling things that a study of math (or even, as in my case, an amateur’s enthusiasm) can reveal. If you’re interested, 11:53, I’d urge you to check out a book called Godel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid.
By the way, I always get the Monty Hall problem wrong.
December 28, 2011 at 3:01 pm
Mitch
“reflect to who”
Probably a poor choice of words on my part.
To the extent that when I observe the particles they behave in exactly the same way as when you or Eric observe the particles, I believe they’ll continue to behave that way when you, Eric, and I are not around.
If that’s faith, I guess that’s my faith. I also think the refrigerator light stays off when the refrigerator door is closed.
December 28, 2011 at 3:22 pm
Bolithio
2+2 is always two. A tree falls in the forest, it makes a sound. These are the laws of nature, with or without man. We happened to discover some of these laws, and we call them math and science in our language. Have we killed this horse Mitch?
She replied that once he changed his first diaper he would learn just how real the universe is.
I love that. I heard John Stewart once saw that there is more fundamental difference between people with and without kids than between republicans and democrats.
December 28, 2011 at 3:26 pm
Mitch
Yes, Bolithio, it’s an ex-horse.
December 28, 2011 at 3:32 pm
suzy blah blah
when I observe the particles they behave in exactly the same way as when you or Eric observe the particles, I believe they’ll continue to behave that way when you, Eric, and I are not around. If that’s faith, I guess that’s my faith
-a true believer. One of the most dangerous animals in the universe.
December 28, 2011 at 5:05 pm
Anonymous
Corrected for Bolithio: “These are the laws of nature, with or without math.”
All that you mathers have reiterated is religious dogma. Please explain to me how that isn’t the case? The hiliarious irony is you also poo-poo “religion” in this very thread! Replace your words of math with words of religion, scroll up and read. Feel free to scroll up and read what I’ve already written in this thread as well, it answers your further preaching. Doesn’t appear you have seriously contemplated my many points in my many responses. I’d be happy to elaborate further.
A ratio is not math. A pattern is not math. A pattern on a seashell is not math. The refrigerator light is not math whether it is on or off. Math is only a specific language we have been taught, that some of you have since concluded to be an absolute. You choose to apply it to everything. The thing we call math is not absolute. Math is completely arbitrary.
I guess mitch, bolithio, eric and others don’t remember what life was like before they learned math? Do they at least remember being instructed to learn the language that is math, and what that procedure was like? The world’s best mathematicians are expanding the language to this day. When something doesn’t quite fit the existing rules of math, a new rule is invented….just like “science”…another language that is completely arbitrary as well. The parameters of existence as any of us choose to know them are as we choose to know them.
December 28, 2011 at 5:12 pm
Mitch
To my pleasure and surprise, MIT offers free online course lectures of a class on Godel Escher Bach for high school students. If you have a broadband link and the interest, consider checking it out:
http://ocw.mit.edu/high-school/courses/godel-escher-bach/video-lectures/
I’ve only listened to the first couple of minutes, but it sounds promising.
December 28, 2011 at 5:15 pm
Anonymous
“I remember my mother coming home from college when I was very young. Her class had hosted a guest who argued that none of reality as we know it is real, but rather a collective illusion created by our minds. She replied that once he changed his first diaper he would learn just how real the universe is.”
How is it a surprise that you don’t prescribe to the ideas the guest speaker preaches, and instead to the preachings of your mother? If your mother beat you, and you sought refuge in the hands of the guest speaker, you might vehemently argue differently.
December 28, 2011 at 5:22 pm
Anonymous
“But the particles will go about their business, observer or no.”
How is that math? You’re telling me, in no uncertain terms, the entire universe is the will of God…er….Math. You mgiht elaborate that there is no will involved, there is only the act of God…er…Mathematical Behavior.
December 28, 2011 at 5:34 pm
Anonymous
“If you’re interested, 11:53, I’d urge you to check out a book called Godel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid.”
I’ve read more white western philosophy than I care to yawn at anymore. If you’re more inclinded to contemplate the words of contemporary US scholars, check out Timothy Leary’s High Priest, old dog, and maybe learn a new trick.
Free reading: http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp_list.shtml
December 28, 2011 at 6:09 pm
Anonymous
MIT lecture #4 in the series mitch linked: The ability of humans to step outside of formal systems – meta thinking.
I understand math, I also know it is completely arbitrary. Can you imagine the first human to ever have experienced zoogaboogadoobliaphormorzosis? Imagine if nobody had ever experienced zoogaboogadoobliaphormorzosis, how ignorant we would all be!!! Wait, you all have experienced zoogaboogadoobliaphormorzosis, or at least tried to comprehend it, right? What’s that? You’ve never even heard of zoogaboogadoobliaphormorzosis??? I can’t take anything you say regarding this subject seriously because you’re ignorant of how the universe works. It’s not a matter of debate. It has nothing to do with my subjective perception, it’s entirely your lack of it…you don’t even know what zoogaboogadoobliaphormorzosis is, for crying out loud!
Fast fingers, was looking at the lecture list and thought I returned to this thread, posted in another instead…sorry for dupe, cut and pasted here. My mistake was either an act of god, or the way the infinite chain reaction of particles in the universe behaved through me at that moment, as prescribed by the infintesimal previous mathematical behavior of all other particles int eh universe and their neverending absolute behavior.
December 28, 2011 at 6:28 pm
Anonymous
Mitch, how is anything I’ve written summed up by this, your own words (((mine in parenthesis)))?:
Some people take it so far that they decide math is not relevant and science is evil. (((not talking about me!)))
You, Bolithio, work for the evildoers (((yep! clearcutting our forests!))) and so, of course, every thought you have, every tool you use, is evil (((uhhh…))). It’s a nice, simplifying assumption (((not one I’ve made whatsoever))).
For someone who grew up not liking or understanding the math taught in schools (((not talking about me, I’m very well educated in math))), I’m sure it’s quite gratifying to decide that math is without real value (((I said nothing of the sort))), just cold abstraction (((as opposed to heart warming abstraction?))). The really clever folks (((I’m flattered))), these self-certified really clever folks (((wait a minute, you just said I was clever, not me, I;m only stating what I understand as the obvious))), realize it’s all just human construction (((the language of math is, yes, what the heck are you talking about???))) just awaiting their deconstruction project; only the fools think there’s anything real to it (((do we not believe we exist in teh same reality?))).
There’s definitely irony in all of this (((you bet there is!)))
December 28, 2011 at 9:18 pm
Eric Kirk
A ratio is not math. A pattern is not math. A pattern on a seashell is not math. The refrigerator light is not math whether it is on or off. Math is only a specific language we have been taught, that some of you have since concluded to be an absolute. You choose to apply it to everything. The thing we call math is not absolute. Math is completely arbitrary.
You keep making the assertion as if it’s self-evident. Can you give an example of math which is arbitrary? And specifically what do you mean by arbitrary?
December 28, 2011 at 9:38 pm
Eric Kirk
Godel Escher Bach is an excellent book! I haven’t read from it in years. It takes some effort though.
And I’m thinking maybe we need a working definition of math. As I recall it is basically the study of patterns in quantity, structure, space, and change. While the symbolism we choose to apply to the phenomenon we have identified may be “arbitrary,” the concepts themselves are not, because they are observed in repetition and applied physically.
It may be arbitrary to name a cold-blooded scaled land-based animal with legs and a long tail a lizard. But the concept of a lizard is not arbitrary. It exists as a lizard regardless of our interpretations or subjective perceptions. It requires no consensus from us as to its existence. It has its own substance, and is distinguished from all the other phenomenon on its own terms.
The same with pi. We can name it anything we want, but if we change the value it will no longer serve as the accurate relationship between the radius and diameter of a circle. It is apathetic to our perceptions, and existed on its own long before human consciousness developed.
December 28, 2011 at 9:58 pm
Mitch
Anon 6:28,
I wasn’t talking about you.
You say,
“A ratio is not math. A pattern is not math. A pattern on a seashell is not math. The refrigerator light is not math whether it is on or off. Math is only a specific language we have been taught, that some of you have since concluded to be an absolute. You choose to apply it to everything. The thing we call math is not absolute. Math is completely arbitrary.”
I don’t even understand what you’re arguing about. If you want to call math a human activity, that’s fine by me. If you choose as your definition what you say above, we agree. Yes, what you define is human-created.
But the human language you talk about is not describing someone’s opinion — it’s describing aspects of physical reality as far as we can understand it. Given A, you can state B. Realizing that C is cyclical, it makes sense that pi comes into play. This pattern turns out to be a lot like that pattern, maybe we should look for a common underlying cause that generates both patterns. Hmm, this pattern isn’t quite the same — maybe we should investigate why.
Those patterns, for me, offer a sense that there is simplicity behind apparent complexity. And, in another way, they offer a sense that the apparently simple may be awesomely complex. I guess that’s why I use religious metaphors for the experience of seeing (and being aided in seeing) the patterns. Things that don’t outwardly appear related turn out to be different aspects of the same causes. Sometimes you need to use bigger tools to see the connections — some mathematical fields offer those bigger mental tools, but you can’t use the tools until you’ve learned them.
This is the first time I’ve heard GEB referred to as white western philosophy. Is that supposed to be an insult? Or have you just decided that five quarts of whatever “white western philosophy” is is enough yawning? Silly me, I hadn’t known that books could be substituted for one another.
You put words in my mouth or in the mouth of some other “mathy”:
“I can’t take anything you say regarding this subject seriously because you’re ignorant of how the universe works. It’s not a matter of debate. It has nothing to do with my subjective perception, it’s entirely your lack of it…you don’t even know what zoogaboogadoobliaphormorzosis is, for crying out loud!”
It’s as simple as my not being able to offer much useful commentary on the air quality in Fortuna if I have no interest or willingness to go to Fortuna to breathe the air, and no interest or willingness to read reports about air quality in Fortuna. I can offer my opinion, but people who have smelled something bad in Fortuna might not credit it very much. That’s not a personal slight, and it doesn’t mean I need to learn any big words. My opinions about good and evil and the nature of God are as valuable as the next person’s, but my opinion about air quality in Fortuna isn’t. Even if I learn the technical language used by those who study air quality, if I just choose to speculate freely about the air quality of Fortuna, my opinion is not going to be of much use or interest to anyone.
Would you really be interested in discussing the evolution of Spanish with someone who knew no Spanish, had no interest in Spanish history, but was proud of their opinions on the subject? Would it be terribly unfair to suggest to the person that their opinions on the subject didn’t matter?
December 28, 2011 at 10:14 pm
Mitch
Anon 5:34,
I clicked your link. If you think the path to reality is through mind-altering substances, we really can’t see eye to eye. I recognize that some drug experiences can be powerful and helpful, but I don’t believe they’re a short-cut to the secrets of the universe.
I guess by the rules I offered above, my opinion on the subject doesn’t matter. That’s ok with me.
December 28, 2011 at 11:56 pm
Anonymous
bleh.
December 28, 2011 at 11:59 pm
Anonymous
“the concepts themselves are not, because they are observed in repetition and applied physically.”
Not so. Ever had a “religious” experience? One would assign it a “mathematical” context, not the other way around.
December 29, 2011 at 7:39 am
Bolithio
Time for a song:
hey brother christian with your high and mighty errand
your actions speak so loud I can’t hear a word you’re saying
hey sister bleeding heart with all of your compassion
your labors soothe the hurt but can’t assuage temptation
hey man of science with your perfect rules of measure
can you improve this place with the data that you gather
hey mother mercy can your loins bear fruit forever?
is your fecundity a trammel or a treasure?
I want to conquer the world
give all the idiots a brand new religion
put an end to poverty, uncleanliness and toil
promote equality in all of my decisions
with a quick wink of the eye and a “god you must be joking!”
hey mister diplomat with your worldly aspirations
did you see your children cry when you left them at the station?
hey moral soldier you’ve got righteous proclamation
and precious tomes to fuel your pulpy conflagrations
I want to conquer the world
expose the culprits and feed them to the children
I’ll do away with air pollution
and then I’ll save the whales
we’ll have peace on earth
and global communion
I want to conquer the world!!!
December 29, 2011 at 9:02 am
Percy
This is an amazing thread. It gives me a whole new awareness of what Darwin and Galileo must have gone through trying to get their ideas out in their day.
December 29, 2011 at 10:21 am
suzy blah blah
(pi) …existed on its own long before human consciousness developed.
-nonsense. Just like the christians arrogant claim about Jehovah is. Jehovah didn’t create man but rather vice verse.
December 29, 2011 at 10:35 am
Anonymous
“I guess by the rules I offered above, my opinion on the subject doesn’t matter. That’s ok with me.”
I’m not offended whatsoever. Realize that you’ve spent the entire thread telling me it’s not a matter of opinion, whereas I’m saying it’s entirely a matter of opinion.
December 29, 2011 at 11:14 am
suzy blah blah
it’s describing aspects of physical reality as far as we can understand it.
-as you can understand it, Mitch, not we. Yet anther example of the arrogant presumptuousness of math/science.
December 29, 2011 at 11:25 am
Mitch
Find an aspect of physical reality that is unknown and can be replicated by others, and any scientific journal would be happy to publish you. Find an aspect of physical reality that is unknown and cannot be replicated by others, and maybe you’re just on shrooms.
Pi is a merciful god, though. He bestows his blessings on believers and unbelievers alike.
December 29, 2011 at 12:04 pm
Erasmus
Mitch would benefit from a reading of the chapter “Is God a Mathematician?” in ‘The Phenomenon of Life’ by Hans Jonas (Northwestern U. Press). (The answer is a resounding “No,” by the way. ) Among many fascinating comments, Jonas opines that modern science has led to the “paradox that not only the mindless but also the lifeless has become the intelligible as such, and ‘dead matter’ the standard of intelligibility.” — He makes a convincing case, and no sane person would talk of ‘pi’ as a god after reading the essay.
December 29, 2011 at 12:19 pm
Anonymous
“Find an aspect of physical reality that is unknown and can be replicated by others, and any scientific journal would be happy to publish you.”
Free will. Your absolute is completely arbitrary. It’s a difficult concept ot grasp, I completely understand. It blew me away to wake up to the fact that jus tabout all my formal teaching of how the universe works is just one of an infinite way of looking at things. As the books you might recommend might teacheth unto me, I’m telling you, there are ways to experience the fact that we are all connected to the entire universe on this organism earth…no more or less a shortcut than books, and not for everybody. Everybody is completely unique as are the infinite divides of our total body. Humanity has been stifled within the last few nanoseconds of relative history. Dualities of science/religion, math/abstraction, democrat/republican are horrible distractions, utilized, along with what you call science and math, by greedy powermongers to pit us against eachother and force us into the situation we are all now in.
December 29, 2011 at 12:21 pm
Anonymous
…shamans have been replaced by stuffed suits who come up with enough money to buy a certificate and tell their “teachers” exactly what they want to hear.
December 29, 2011 at 12:25 pm
Mitch
I’ll check it out, Erasmus.
I’ve assumed it’s clear to most that I do not think of pi as a God so much as a pleasant way to tweak annoying Christian platitudes.
For those of you who are convinced I worship pi, I confess I do, completely and without question. It comforts me in my grief and walks by my side at all times.
December 29, 2011 at 12:30 pm
suzy blah blah
@ anonymous –give them enough rope and theyll hang themselves. And in so doing show ample evidence of what i said above, science is the religion of our era.
Eric believes in the non-arbitrariness, the absolute (god, the father). Bolitheo believes that without science we’d only live 35yrs (savior, the son). Mitch had a religious experience while watching a dayglow video clip of a mathematical sequence (enlightenment, holy ghost). So there you have it, the trinity of their religion.
Oh, dont forget the diaper lady with her head up her ass and her fingers in the poop. She takes the role of the holy mother.
December 29, 2011 at 12:32 pm
Mitch
perfect timing, blah.
December 29, 2011 at 12:44 pm
Anonymous
It’s really messed up to see people trash “religion” while trumpeting “science”. I know and have known way too many very good people, including family, who cling to the beliefs people like Bolithio ridicule. They are entirely good people and assets to our shared existence, that you would be so naive and arrogant as to say the entire foundation of their belief is nonsense, and often refer to their motivation as the biggest problem the world has going for it.
December 29, 2011 at 12:45 pm
Anonymous
…and while Bolithio trashes “religion”, his beliefs place him in the life position of cheerleading the people who stripmine our forests.
December 29, 2011 at 12:47 pm
Bolithio
Evil-doer to Savoir! Thanks Suzy! =)
December 29, 2011 at 1:08 pm
Eric Kirk
Is anybody trashing religion 12:44? And we were talking about mathematics, not science per se.
But I like Suzy’s interpretation of the trinity.
As for the other comments, I think it’s much easier for humanity to create Jehovah than pi. But if it’s our creation, then let’s make it easier to use. Make it three. The Bible says it’s three anyway.
http://gospelofreason.wordpress.com/2007/06/13/god-said-pi-3-stand-by-your-beliefs-dammit/
December 29, 2011 at 1:08 pm
suzy blah blah
Evil-doer to Savoir
-same difference.
December 29, 2011 at 1:11 pm
Anonymous
“Is anybody trashing religion 12:44?”
Not you, eric. Bolithio does so repeatedly, with a very narrow mind.
December 29, 2011 at 1:28 pm
Mitch
12:19,
I don’t know if free will exists or not. The experiments aren’t looking good.
I’m with you on the greedy powermongers, but aren’t they us?
December 29, 2011 at 1:40 pm
Mitch
12:44,
“They are entirely good people and assets to our shared existence,”
Yes, I agree, except for the word “entirely.” I’ve met many good people, but I doubt any were entirely good. I’m certainly not. (Amen, blah, amen!)
It seems a shame, though, that as a result of clinging to our beliefs, we keep getting ourselves into wars. It’s also a shame that the continued discoveries in science grant us all more power than wisdom, making the wars more and more destructive.
Progress in scientific and mathematical understanding keeps increasing our power over the material world. Meanwhile, the lack of progress in religion and spiritual understanding ensures that our power over the material world is used as often for destruction as for creation.
December 29, 2011 at 2:04 pm
suzy blah blah
-totally agree. well said, Mitch.
December 29, 2011 at 2:09 pm
suzy blah blah
theres just one number –one
two is two ones
99 is 99 ones
theres an infinite amount of points on a circle’s
circumference
each point is a one
each circle is a one
and each one –is unique
LOL!
December 29, 2011 at 2:11 pm
Anonymous
“It seems a shame, though, that as a result of clinging to our beliefs, we keep getting ourselves into wars.”
again, that is how “we” are conditioned to think. “We” aren’t getting anybody into wars, specific people are calling all the shots. The private does what the general says without question, or he’s out of the picture altogether. That chain of command goes all the way up to forceful control of everybody’s natural resources. “We” are simply keeping a roof over our head and food on our table…”we” serve the people who call the shots.
re: entirely good people…yeah, I can be too wordy. Whether or not something like free will exists, is entirely your free will to decide. What matters is what we do with or without it. What matters to one may not to another.
You’re floating in the ocean with no land in sight and the sun directly overhead. Where are your beliefs now? That’s reality. You will likely beg some sort of metaphysical space to make it out of that situation alive. I can bring perspective back by remembering that right this very instant exists a human being the same age as me, starving to death in a polluted cesspool somewhere, and through no choice of their own. There but for the grace of Dog go I.
December 29, 2011 at 2:20 pm
Eric Kirk
Not to disagree with you Suzy, but I do believe that throughout history religion has played a much bigger role in starting wars than science. Science has made it more deadly. But I’m hard pressed to come up with a a war fought over differences of opinion in scientific theory. We usually reserve war for issues like whether you cross your chest in prayer from right to left rather than left to right.
That’s not to put down religion. Religion has also served as deep inspiration for opposition to war, particularly over the past century. But I’m just saying.
December 29, 2011 at 2:41 pm
Bolithio
Its not about bashing people who believe in something. People who follow religion are hopefully using the teachings that promote good and the well being of others. The golden rule. Wonderful.
The religious *institution* is an entirely different animal, and that is what I trash. The institution has failed our society to adapt and properly implement the core belief systems they claim to hold. They suck money from the poor to feed their agendas. They subjugate people and perpetuate intolerance of others. They also prey on ignorance, which they exploit to maintain their old world dogmas.
Call me crazy, but I want to live in a tolerant world, where my loved-ones are not persecuted because of their race, culture, or sexuality. Religion is driving the cart against this ideal.
December 29, 2011 at 2:47 pm
Mitch
Whether or not something like free will exists, is entirely your free will to decide.
Thank you, 2:11. That’s mighty Pian of you. I’ll take my free will, imaginary or not, and use it to tear myself away from the blog.
December 29, 2011 at 3:13 pm
suzy blah blah
@Eric 2:00 -we do agree on that, specially the science has made it deadlier part. All the more urgent reason for not going along with religion’s dominating ways these days. I’m just saying, let’s not make science our replacement for it.
December 29, 2011 at 3:38 pm
tra
Mitch said: “Progress in scientific and mathematical understanding keeps increasing our power over the material world. Meanwhile, the lack of progress in religion and spiritual understanding ensures that our power over the material world is used as often for destruction as for creation.”
I agree with the basic idea there, but I would just add that one could substitute the word “ethical” instead of “religion” and reach the same result. Yes, I realize that many folks believe that we humans are not capable of living an ethical and moral life without religion, but I’m not persuaded of that.
December 29, 2011 at 3:44 pm
suzy blah blah
-religions arent just gonna disappear to be replaced by “ethics”. The “progress”, Mitch, should be from literal understanding to symbolic.
December 29, 2011 at 4:01 pm
Mitch
tra,
Part of me says ok, ethics then, but part of me thinks that the humility of not-knowing is something that religion can bring but ethics, perhaps, cannot.
If a religious institution would just focus on not-knowing instead of on pretending to know, I’d be tempted to join it. (Well, I guess some do and I already joined one, and I don’t mean “science.”)
My personal belief is that the amount of stuff we as humans don’t know will always be infinite compared to the stuff we as humans know. But if we’re going to focus on what we supposedly know, I’d rather go with the people who insist on shared, reproducible evidence than the people who have a favorite book to take literally, or the folks who have screwed around with their brains’ neurotransmitters and think they’ve found out that all is one.
For example, I like the idea that Islam doesn’t want people doing images of God, because otherwise you end up with the semitic rabbi Jesus shown as an Italian pretty-boy. I like the Jewish idea that it’s naughty to even say Yahweh’s name. That’s a start, anyway. But I don’t think you rake in the big tithes by selling not-knowing to the populace.
I think there’s a big place for not-knowing in our society, but I don’t think it helps to throw out what we DO know. Like the specific and necessary value of pi, for example.
(So much for free will.)
December 29, 2011 at 4:17 pm
Mitch
2:11 wrote,
You’re floating in the ocean with no land in sight and the sun directly overhead. Where are your beliefs now? That’s reality. You will likely beg some sort of metaphysical space to make it out of that situation alive.
Yes. Every one of us is in that situation or its equivalent right now. And not one of us will make it out alive. That’s a good reason to ponder things, but a terrible reason to make up pretend explanations.
December 29, 2011 at 4:22 pm
tra
Suzy said: “religions arent just gonna disappear to be replaced by ethics.”
No, religions aren’t going to disappear, at least not all at once. Gradually? Perhaps.
December 29, 2011 at 4:40 pm
tra
Mitch said: “…part of me thinks that the humility of not-knowing is something that religion can bring but ethics, perhaps, cannot.”
I see it more as a matter of us choosing to bring (or not bring) the “humility of not-knowing” to our religions and to our secular ethical systems, rather than a matter of our religion or ethics bringing this humility to us.
I definitely agree that what we don’t know (especially as individuals, but even as a group) is, and will probably always be, far greater than what we do know. So yeah, a good dose of humility all the way ’round is definitely called for.
December 29, 2011 at 4:57 pm
Anonymous
As for the other comments, I think it’s much easier for humanity to create Jehovah than pi. But if it’s our creation, then let’s make it easier to use. Make it three. The Bible says it’s three anyway.
You are saying it’s easier to create a god than a number?
December 29, 2011 at 5:31 pm
Anonymous
“literal understanding to symbolic.”
YES. This is one of those “you get it or you don’t” things. Statements like “Those crazy pooping people are are making the whole protest look bad” are bottom of the barrel dumb, and that type of thinking is used to discredit many an issue. Those crazy people represent the bigger picture just the same.
December 29, 2011 at 5:35 pm
Anonymous
“They also prey on ignorance, which they exploit to maintain their old world dogmas.”
Simpson Timber changed their name to Green Diamond Resources.
December 29, 2011 at 5:55 pm
Bolithio
I think its important to state that science isn’t trying to be a religion. And they are only ‘at odds’ when religion attempts to interfere with science (e.g. intelligent design). I don’t believe that science is the “new religion”. Indeed, religions have always used science. I do however hope that mankind will adopt the scientific method as a standard of making decisions, as opposed to relying on previous religious dogma, to better arrive at the goals we have set (our ethics).
Religion is in a tough place right now. As society increasingly disagrees with dogma, they will be forced to change. The quicker they do, the quicker we improve as a species. Every single one one the religions people defend contain out-dated, irreverent, often confusing laws that were abandoned long ago. We no longer need to sacrifice animals to get shit done. But the distilled idea of treating each other good remains. Shouldn’t that be the focus? Obviously our ethical values are credited to religions and philosophy. We worshiped the sun. Then many Gods, now just one. Perhaps soon, no God(s) are worshiped, and we just live good. Imagine what God(s) would feel if mankind took that trajectory?
December 29, 2011 at 7:39 pm
Anonymous
“I think its important to state that science isn’t trying to be a religion.”
No, that’s entirely the doing of people like yourself.
December 29, 2011 at 8:23 pm
Eric Kirk
You are saying it’s easier to create a god than a number?
Absolutely it’s easier to create a god. A god doesn’t have to be consistent or follow any rules, so the god explains all and all is explained by the god no matter what happens because “God works in mysterious ways.”
On the other hand, pi has to be consistent. It has to perform the same way every single time, or it’s useless. That’s a tall order for an “abstraction” created by human beings.
December 29, 2011 at 11:23 pm
Unk John
Anonymous 7:39 – I’m not sure I understand. Are you accusing Bolithio of trying to make science a religion? If so, could you point out where where he made any such statement or implication?
I read his statements as saying that, for the most part, science and religion differ in several ways, not the least in that the explanations of religion are mostly qualitative, while science endeavors to explain quantitatively. The explanations of science certainly seem more utilitarian than those of any religion.
I’m sorry if I misunderstood what you were saying, but if that is what you meant, I disagree.
December 30, 2011 at 1:32 am
Ernie's Place
Just for the record, I agree with Eric, Bolithio, and Unk John. God and religion are like playing “Calvin Ball”, that’s where you can make up a new rule if you are losing .
The scientists are stuck with PI = 3.14159265… and so forth, to so many digits that it is more accurately simply expressed as “PI”. And the rules don’t change. Ain’t science wonderful?
December 30, 2011 at 9:26 am
suzy blah blah
Eric, haha, cute.
Unk John –i dont worship your utilitarianism.
tra, Religion contains too much meaningful truth to ever disappear.
December 30, 2011 at 9:53 am
Erasmus
“The rules don’t change” (referring to “science”). — I’m not sure which “rules” are meant — or is “laws” a more appropriate word? — In any case, science is constantly altering its worldview — that’s one of its glories. “Religion” is also in a perpetual state of change, if we overlook the fundamentalist underclass (intellectually speaking). They are as ignorant of recent theological developments as the average citizen or the typical college graduate is of the latest findings in physics or chemistry. Pitting science against religion is a truly pointless exercise. Each mode of thought has blood on its hands, though it’s rare to find a secularist who will acknowledge that fact: antique theories of racial inferiority, for example, are never looked upon as “science gone astray,” though that is what they were. Dead science is swept under the carpet, dead religion is always being trotted out as a threat to future Galileos (who was never imprisoned). And if anyone thinks that “dead science” is safely forgotten, I recommend consideration of: the economic science that rules Cuba, N. Korea, or the core of the Republican party — or the historical science in the Arab Middle East that casts Jews as the malevolent masters of war —- or the Social Darwinist/eugenicist version of biology that underlies so much of the proposed genetic manipulation of the human genome.
December 30, 2011 at 11:00 am
suzy blah blah
Pitting science against religion is a truly pointless exercise.
-yet we have to continually endure pompous condescending attitudes about the superiority of science, including cute jokes about how God acts in “mysterious ways” from this new self proclaimed priesthood who fancies that it holds knowledge and truth.
But the real truth is, and the facts show us that, science knows nothing of mystery or the imagination. In fact its lack of metaphor leaves us starved for imagination. And its fanaticism over cold abstractions being absolute has degenerated into narcissistic dominance and abuse.
December 30, 2011 at 11:38 am
Anonymous
“The scientists are stuck with PI = 3.14159265… and so forth, to so many digits that it is more accurately simply expressed as “PI”.”
You contradict yourself. The circle is finite, as is any physical manifestation of the ratio, yet the number is infinite.
“And the rules don’t change. Ain’t science wonderful?”
The rules change all the time, actually. Pi is an example. There was a time before pi, and the number 3 didn’t work within the predetermined set so a new one was made…the “irrational” pi. New activities will be attempted, to which they will have no choice but to change THEIR existing rules.
Again, you don’t use pi whatsoever (or do you? I haven’t had to touch a calculator in years, and haven’t hit the Pi button since college). Pi could be anything as far as we’re concerned and our lives would go on just the same. For specific activities, we might want to utilize an established system of measurement, and being as how we are all made to learn mathematics since early childhood, born into a world where “math” is considered an absolute, overwhelming odds are we will choose math.
Math isn’t the reality, math is the perception.
Bolithio is a bipolar thinker. _____/religion. No such duality exists but where he chooses to make the divide, and in this case crucify one and congratulate another. (Irony in language!)
December 30, 2011 at 11:39 am
Erasmus
You are correct —- and I meant an ideal science, just as I mean a compassionate and intelligent religion. —- Not many people are aware of how little science actually understands. I saw a bumpersticker a couple of weeks ago: DARWIN LOVES YOU. A feeble attempt to be clever, of course, and an implicit endorsement of the notion that “evolution” explains humankind and the rest of the animal kingdom. Nothing could be less true. The greatest of all American biologists, Harvard’s Ernst Mayr, who died a few years ago at 101, wrote in the introduction to his book ‘Toward a New Philosophy of Biology’ that the appearance of homo sapiens was such an unlikely, inexplicable event that the word “miracle” applied. —- Mayr was an atheist and a fervent Darwinian. And he had to invoke a “miracle”! So much for science filling the shoes of religion.
December 30, 2011 at 11:42 am
Mitch
“science knows nothing of mystery or the imagination”
Pitiful. The project of science is to find facts and answer questions. To wallow in answerable mysteries is lazy, to wallow in answered mysteries is pitiful.
There will most likely be plenty of unanswerable mysteries remaining for religion.
The complaint that science knows nothing of the imagination or metaphor is simply breathtaking. If anything could prove blah’s lack of experience and lack of understanding of science and math, that statement is it.
Erasmus writes,
“…a threat to future Galileos (who was never imprisoned).”
Oh for fuck sake. Well goody for the Church.
December 30, 2011 at 11:44 am
Anonymous
“Absolutely it’s easier to create a god (than a number)”
Pi is now the number bleen.
December 30, 2011 at 11:58 am
Anonymous
What there is, are other human beings whom for whatever reason we choose to acknowledge or not. We encapsulate our understandings…we don’t have to spend any more time calculating 1+1, or 1+1+1+1 and then remove 1 and 1 to achieve 1+1. We have come to understand “two” instantaneously, even though 2 is 1 and 1. UNLESS you are wanting to achieve 1 thing, in which case you would CHOOSE to conclude 1 and 1 is still 1. Arbitrary! A matter of perception.
You think, therefore you are. What do you choose to think? Do you choose to think? What can you choose to think?
Science savvy folks familiar with occam’s razor? As mind bogglingly complex as the rules to the GAME “math” get (the game is basically to achieve an answer for everything), they boil down to the system we were all made to learn beginning at a time in our lives we barely remember. Like I said before, it’s no surprise so many consider the “rules” of math and science absolute, and shape their universal view accordingly.
December 30, 2011 at 12:31 pm
suzy blah blah
-yawn, one gets tired of your all your bogus answers and hot air Mitch, like i said above youre as full of bullshit and of yourself as the blog is long. Which IS something that IS absolute. Continual outpouring of Mitch’s bubbling crap. Until you die, but the truths of our religious symbols go further than youre little mind can comprehend, they are eternal and will reside in the human psyche long after you and your own personal ignorance is gone. Nothing but huff and puff, you couldnt blow down a house of cards much less the reality of our inherited religious truths.
December 30, 2011 at 12:46 pm
Bolithio
But the real truth is, and the facts show us that, science knows nothing of mystery or the imagination.
What facts? Talk about hot air!
“The knowledge that the atoms that comprise life on earth – the atoms that make up the human body, are traceable to the crucibles that cooked light elements into heavy elements in their core under extreme temperatures and pressures. These stars- the high mass ones among them- went unstable in their later years- they collapsed and then exploded- scattering their enriched guts across the galaxy- guts made of carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, and all the fundamental ingredients of life itself. These ingredients become part of gas clouds that condense, collapse, form the next generation of solar systems- stars with orbiting planets. And those planets now have the ingredients for life itself. So that when I look up at the night sky, and I know that yes we are part of this universe, we are in this universe, but perhaps more important than both of those facts is that the universe is in us. When I reflect on that fact, I look up- many people feel small, cause their small and the universe is big. But I feel big because my atoms came from those stars. ”
― Neil deGrasse Tyson
December 30, 2011 at 12:47 pm
Mitch
Which religious symbols are those, blah? Christian? Jewish? Islamic? Buddhist? Hindu? Mormon? Unitarian? Pagan? Wiccan?
Does magic underwear count as a religious symbol? Refusal to eat pork? Shielding one’s head from God? Never shielding one’s head from God? Covering one’s woman’s body?
Insistence that the Earth is at the center of the universe, with generous treatment of heretics? (Thanks, Erasmus, for the useful historical update.)
Approval of slavery? Approval of the destruction of cities and all their inhabitants? Refusal to mix linen and cotton, milk and meat? Refusal to allow race mixing? Severe concern over what sexual parts get inserted into who, where, when and how? Insistence on priestly celibacy? Recognition that America is God’s favorite? Recognition that Israel is God’s favorite? Recognition that God wants America destroyed? Recognition that cartoonists must be killed?
Oh, I get it! Religion is capable of metaphor! The stuff about linen and cotton — just a metaphor! Whoever said not to mix races just misunderstood the metaphor! But I thought God spoke to them? Oh, he wasn’t clear.
Wait. Wait a minute. There’s an update. New Pope, new infallible representative of Yahweh. Jews are OK. No mass murder this generation.
Slavery. New update.
And they say religion doesn’t progress.
December 30, 2011 at 12:56 pm
Mitch
Bolithio,
Spirituality needs to be defended from people like blah. Science has no real need for a defense. There are tons of folks out there who value both science and spirituality.
Those people recognize the faults of religion, and they realize science will probably never answer all the questions people have about meaning. But they respect the impulses behind both science and spirituality, while remaining aware of the inevitable abuse of each.
December 30, 2011 at 1:07 pm
suzy blah blah
-yep, the guys again prove good points. Bolilthio about science being the religion of our era, adn Mitch as to the continual bubbling crap that is his contribution here.
December 30, 2011 at 1:23 pm
Erasmus
“Science has no real need for a defense”? —- If that were true, forests would be spared the fate of being turned into books. And Richard Dawkins would have to figure out what to do with his life.
December 30, 2011 at 1:31 pm
God Himself
Suzy,
Shut the fuck up.
It took me a lot of blood, sweat, and tears to tune constants like pi in order to keep the universe together. It makes me proud that some of you people have finally begun to figure out some of my handiwork. It pisses me off no end that you’ve been imprisoning and torturing them for the respect they’ve offered me. If you had any idea of how many times I was sooooo close to having a working universe, only to have continuity issues turn up at the last moment…
I know you’re all in my image and, let me tell you, sometimes that doesn’t make me very happy.
Look. OK. Mitch is a pompous ass. But I have to say he is one handsome devil. Cut the dude some slack, he means well. I know you do too, but sometimes I think a little bit of lightning might be a good reminder.
And would you stop pretending I don’t care about math?! I mean, for heaven’s sake, I didn’t just create the universe out of gray goo! LOL!!!
December 30, 2011 at 1:35 pm
Mitch
(I just took some new boutique drugs. For the first time ever, I’ve heard God’s voice. It’s a little irritating that he — yup, he’s a he — just wanted me to transcribe a message for blah, but when I hear God’s voice, I hop to.)
God said:
Suzy,
Shut the fuck up.
It took me a lot of blood, sweat, and tears to tune constants like pi in order to keep the universe together. It makes me proud that some of you people have finally begun to figure out some of my handiwork. It pisses me off no end that you’ve been imprisoning and torturing them for the respect they’ve offered me. If you had any idea of how many times I was sooooo close to having a working universe, only to have continuity issues turn up at the last moment…
I know you’re all in my image and, let me tell you, sometimes that doesn’t make me very happy.
Look. OK. Mitch is a pompous ass. But I have to say he is one handsome devil. Cut the dude some slack, he means well. I know you do too, but sometimes I think a little bit of lightning might be a good reminder.
And would you stop pretending I don’t care about math?! I mean, for heaven’s sake, I didn’t just create the universe out of gray goo! LOL!!!
December 30, 2011 at 1:40 pm
Mitch
Erasmus,
Science has absolutely nothing to do with forests being turned into books. Nothing. That is economics and politics, aided by their ability to buy engineering.
December 30, 2011 at 2:02 pm
Mitch
That is economics and politics, aided by their ability to buy engineering.
Aided also, of course, by this, which science challenges every moment:
“Then God said, ‘Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.’”
December 30, 2011 at 2:07 pm
suzy blah blah
-that bubbling crap’s getting better Mitch, you must be off the caffeind or something — i give it a D+ hey, did you hear that idiot try to tell Suzy Blah Blah to shut up hahaha … who does he think he is, oh thats right, LOL.
Lightning? dude does yr man, i mean yr god, have some? You guys still have some of that Owsley stuff from the 60s on scientific ice, right? god/poet/designer/scientist he was, right? so i’ve read online … yep, come on you babbling groucho marxist commie berkley exhippy, kick down with the higher science from the buried archives of the secret chemistry dept. for us younguns to learn by … er, for to make the new utopia. and if you have any of that famous grey goo left from the day … i wouldnt mind a toke or two (pardon the new math), you handsome devil you, with the cute little tight pompous ass that you can shake with the best of Creation’s evolved creations. Ooo ooo the video with the spinning color wheels oo oooo wow …
huggles forever
December 30, 2011 at 2:11 pm
Mitch
huggles to you too, blah.
December 30, 2011 at 2:29 pm
suzy blah blah
at 5:31 pm Anonymous –“literal understanding to symbolic.”
YES. This is one of those “you get it or you don’t” things.
-but you get it. And i do. Yet we have statements like Mitch’s to remind us about things that, “science challenges every moment: “Then God said, ‘Let us make man in our image … ” Science only challenges the literal interpretation, of course. How many time do we have to say it? sheeesh.
December 30, 2011 at 4:20 pm
Eric Kirk
Pi is now the number bleen.
As long as it represents the constant ratio between a circle’s circumference and diameter, it doesn’t matter what you call it. It will always perform exactly the same way, no matter how you apply it. No god conceived by humanity can say the same.
December 30, 2011 at 5:47 pm
suzy blah blah
-more my god, (it doesnt matter what you call it) is better than your god taunts from the new religion.
December 30, 2011 at 6:10 pm
Anonymous
“As long as it represents the constant ratio between a circle’s circumference and diameter, it doesn’t matter what you call it. It will always perform exactly the same way, no matter how you apply it.”
Not true, because math is only a method of perception. Math only exists in an imaginary space. Where in the universe is there a perfect circle?
December 30, 2011 at 6:18 pm
Anonymous
…and isn’t a circle what math calls “two dimensional”? Math is like super duper duper duper advanced dungeons and dragons.
December 30, 2011 at 8:47 pm
Ernie's Place
Science is exact, consistent and reproducible. Pi will never be 3, never has, been never will be. Pi is the ratio of the circumference to the diameter.
Saying the world was flat, wasn’t science either, it was fuzzy thinking. Saying pi is anything else but what it is, is not science. Science has never changed, it has always been the basis for solid proof. Irrefutable proof. If it’s not irrefutable, it is not science. Where did anybody come up with the thought that science changes. Science was a fact before the universe existed. And, it is exactly the same today. Solid proof.
Prove God to me and you will have a believer.
December 30, 2011 at 9:21 pm
Anonymous
>>Saying God is anything else but what it is, is not religion. God has never changed, God has always been the basis for solid proof. Irrefutable proof. If it’s not irrefutable, it is not God. Where did anybody come up with the thought that God changes. God was a fact before the universe existed. And, it is exactly the same today. Solid proof.
Solid proof…like a perfect circle in the second dimension.
December 31, 2011 at 8:03 am
Erasmus
“Science was a fact before the universe existed.” — Anyone who believes such nonsense should have no trouble believing in a supernatural Being. Science is a human creation, continuously evolving, predicated upon a faith that the laws we uncover are valid throughout space and time. (And, of course, we have empirical evidence only of a tiny portion of the universe(s).) What do we know best about the world? Is it not our own minds? But it is doubtful that a “science” of the mind exists (as opposed to a collection of studies of the mind). John Horgan, a former editor at Scientific American, has written a book entitled ‘The Undiscovered Mind,’ in which he surveys the various fields of psychology and evaluates their validity. The conclusion of the book is not flattering to the idea of psychology as a science. In the field of physics, dark matter and dark energy are now being investigated. It turns out that dark energy may comprise 75 to 85% of the universe’s energy, and this form of energy wasn’t even contemplated until recently. (So much for the ‘theory of everything’ we keep hearing about.) In what sense did “science” exist “before the universe”? And how would we measure “before” and “after”? It appears that Ernie has simply replaced “God” with the word “science.” Too bad just another idol is being worshipped.
December 31, 2011 at 8:41 am
Mitch
Erasmus,
Unfortunately, the discussion broke down long ago, and some serious questions are now buried under semantics.
The activity of studying the nature of the universe is an activity engaged in by sentient beings. The nature of the universe is something else. You are calling the sentient activity science; some of us are calling the nature of the unive rse itself science.
Good science doesn’t overreach — it says what it sees. That’s why older science remains valid even when the explanations within it turn out to be incomplete. Newtonian mechanics still works at the space and time scales in which it was discovered, and in which almost all of us operate, almost all of the time. It works because it is an observation of the way the universe works. Go to scales in which we don’t usually operate and it is no longer a sufficient explanation — the physicists have studied behavior at those scales and come up with their best explanations.
Math is more foundational. I’m aware of no evidence that math itself changes at any scale humanity has yet encountered.
On the other hand, the soft sciences are famously prone to error. They are standing on very shaky foundations, and have far less good history to go on.
There is an enormous difference between using math to explain the universe and using God to explain the universe. Math is a step down from sentience to non-sentience. Math just “is” — it does not have whims and it does not make decisions. It doesn’t explain the big bang or whatever happened at the moment the universe came to be, but sciences which base themselves on it can come up with sensible, testable explanations of things we see. The explanations need to change when the things we discover change — as you point out, that is one of the glories of science.
Using a sentient being to explain the universe doesn’t take a step down, it takes a step up. We end up with a more powerful and knowledgeable creature with whims and decisions — a super version of us. Nothing has been explained, all that has happened is some discomfort has settled in people who refuse to ask “what created God?”
“How did math and a universe that apparently operates by it come to be?” Any honest mathematician will say “beats me,” or “that’s above my pay grade.”
December 31, 2011 at 8:56 am
Erasmus
Calling the nature of the universe “science” is a solecism, and no discussion can prove fruitful when accepted usage is violated. — There is nothing number than a number. The day mathematics can “explain” the power of Shakespeare or Van Gogh is the day I’ll eat my hat. (And, to infuriate you further, I don’t think there is an ultimate explanation for anything, only an infinite regress of endless multiple causes, and we finite beings agree to settle on commonly agreed-upon ‘explanations’ that often — viz. ‘natural selection’ — do little to clarify and a great deal to gratify our desire for ‘knowledge.’)
December 31, 2011 at 9:06 am
Mitch
Yes, that last comment of mine was messed up. I’d withdraw it if I could.
But I’m sure your great-great…great-great-grandfather said something like “the day mathematics can explain how plants always point to the sun god, I’ll eat my club.”
December 31, 2011 at 9:16 am
Mitch
And, Erasmus, I’m not infuriated. But many Christians might be upset to hear you say you don’t think there is an ultimate explanation for anything. Not, of course, the sophisticated subset, but still enough that you might find yourself burned at a stake if someone like a Santorum or a Robertson ever came to power.
I don’t think God as an “infinite regress of endless multiple causes” offers much more warmth than pi.
Being able to explain something at a lower level, in my opinion, does not take anything away from its value at a higher level. Sometimes, I think, it can add to the appreciation of the higher level.
So, to choose a particularly loaded example, I am not worried that explanations of the evolution of kin support take away from the meaning of love. Having an explanation for how something nice or dreadful came to be does not change the thing’s niceness or dreadfulness at all.
December 31, 2011 at 9:18 am
Erasmus
My ancestor would have said (correctly) that math is unnecessary to account for the daily obeisance to the sun exhibited by plants.
December 31, 2011 at 9:26 am
Bolithio
Too bad just another idol is being worshipped.
Really erasmus? Unlike most popular gods, science doesn’t require and long for our worship. There is no promise from science. No one is praying to science.
But there’s plenty to be thankful about.
Science is turning into a cliche-word in this thread. Like progressive. It is meaning something different to each poster.
I would offer this: Its not science’s role to be the answer of the ultimate. Again, science isnt trying to be God. Instead, its the scientific method as a model of thinking/problem solving that – in this modern world – appears superior to religious dogma. The debate over many things in our culture now would not exist if not for religion; stem cell research, teaching evolution, abortion, etc…
December 31, 2011 at 9:27 am
Mitch
Yes, I agree.
But my ancestor might have felt it would be interesting to find out how the plants physically effected their daily worship.
And, for reasons I don’t understand, some other ancestors would have found that investigation incredibly threatening. When they came to power as the sole interpreters of the obeisance, they might have outlawed the study of water pressure, etc…, etc…, on the grounds that no such explanations were necessary, and they would trample upon the respect that should be shown to the obeisance.
December 31, 2011 at 9:58 am
Bolithio
Try this:
December 31, 2011 at 10:12 am
Eric Kirk
Not true, because math is only a method of perception. Math only exists in an imaginary space. Where in the universe is there a perfect circle?
Actually, the event horizon of a black hole makes perfect circles and a perfect sphere. There may be other examples.
But the requirement of a “perfect circle” is your own requirement. The point is that while we may not be able to create a “perfect circle” due to physical limitations, the function of pi is not about perception. It works the same way every single time, whether we perceive it or not. When you were playing with a Frisbee as a four year old, did you perceive pi? Unless you were a genius prodigy, you had no idea what it was. But it was playing a role in your life, because that Frisbee was engineered with the use of the pi. And it worked for every single Frisbee coming off the production line – no exception.
December 31, 2011 at 10:15 am
Eric Kirk
Solid proof…like a perfect circle in the second dimension.
There is no “the second dimension.” A circle incorporates two dimensions. A sphere incorporates three. The first dimension is length. The second width – nothing to be “in.”
December 31, 2011 at 10:32 am
Ernie's Place
In order to express scientific concepts, we have to define our “frame of reference”, for instance the universe that most of us live in has height, width, and breadth, three simple dimensions. We need to start with those definitions. A frame of reference keeps the sand out of the gears. It keeps terms like “the second dimension”, or the twenty seventh dimension out of the factor.
That’s the beauty of a scientific approach to understanding the universe around you, if you eliminate the variables, you eliminate everything but solid fact. In our three dimensional world the word “pi” will always be the ratio of the diameter to the circumference.
Erasmus said: “Science is a human creation, continuously evolving, predicated upon a faith that the laws we uncover are valid throughout space and time.”
Without being insulting or hurtful, I would most strenuously disagree. Science is the element that remains when all of those factors are taken away, and only solid fact remains.
Wonder, knowledge, love, spirituality, and the search for truth and fulfillment are all human factors. I particularly enjoy the human factors, but I don’t accept them as science.
December 31, 2011 at 10:37 am
Ernie's Place
P.S. “pi” is the formula that expresses the the ratio of diameter to circumference of a perfect sphere also… Just to keep us in the 3rd dimension.
December 31, 2011 at 10:44 am
Mitch
I’m still trying to make sense for myself of the apparent argument, which I don’t think exists.
Erasmus said, and I agree:
“My ancestor would have said (correctly) that math is unnecessary to account for the daily obeisance to the sun exhibited by plants.”
In my reply, I said:
But my ancestor might have felt it would be interesting to find out how the plants physically effected their daily worship.
Math and science are interested in finding out “how.” In loose language, scientists and mathematicians are prone to say this is why that: “natural selection” is “why” organisms evolve. I think that’s the semantic issue. Math and science are able to explain complex processes in terms of simpler rules. No one knows “why” the bottom-most rules appear the way they do.
Barring an ability to step out of the universe, I don’t see how anyone will ever be able to explain “why” the universe exists, or “why” pi is the ratio it is. Fundamentalist religion pretends it can answer “why” with false answers like “it’s the will of god.” Science and math does not, though it’s easy for the language to slip.
When fundamentalist religion says “it’s the will of god,” that’s just as useful as saying “it’s beyond my ability to know.” That’s an honest stopping point, and it maps nicely to “we don’t know the why, we just know what happens at the particle/atomic/molecular/organic/human level.”
But in actual practice, fundamentalist religionists don’t stop there — they attach all sorts of mythologies and ancient texts to their god, turning it from something we admit we don’t understand to some ONE who, they claim, they DO understand, to the extent of following his rules.
Why do the trees whisper? It’s god’s voice. OK, perhaps. But science will give explanations of HOW the trees whisper, through the field of acoustics. It’s an explanation of the whispering sound using simpler rules that can be tested and verified to apply everywhere in our experience. WHY do the trees whisper? Maybe it’s god’s voice, acting through those rules. That’s fine, and it doesn’t seem to me any different than just saying ultimately, we don’t know. But “ultimately, we don’t know” is not the end point that religion has adopted. If it were, the catholic church would not have a Pope speaking on behalf of its god.
Neither science nor religion can answer the ultimate “why” question. Science has the decency to admit as much. Not one physicist will claim to know why the universe came to be, yet typical Christians think they are in daily communication with the creator of the universe, urging him to clear up Aunt Abatha’s acne.
December 31, 2011 at 11:01 am
Mitch
To carry this a bit farther, no spiritual person needs to worry that the study of acoustics takes away from the marvel at their god’s voice. Only religionists who want to impose “God’s will” on others worry about such explanations, because they expose the magic that priests rely on to force obeisance.
When the magic remains unknown, someone who pretends to explain it with their personal god’s decisions (“God is angry!” “God is talking to me and saying blah blah.”) is able to collect deference and respect. As each layer of science moves the explanation away from an animate, sentient being choosing an activity and towards very basic rules being played out in time, forcing the question towards the ultimate, unanswerable “why,” the priests lose out on the promise of being listened to.
A sensible priest would just confess that they think they have wisdom with which to make people happier in their lives, and offer their services without claiming they have the ear of god.
December 31, 2011 at 11:23 am
Anonymous
There is no such thing as a perfect circle, or “the second dimension”, or the square root of anything but within your imagination. There is no such thing as an angel, or “heaven”, or the ten commandments but within your imagination. The rules of math are no different than the rules of religion. The rules of math helped specific people accomplish specific goals. The rules of religion helped specific accomplish specific goals. Neither are necessary, both are arbitrary. There is what you are doing, nothing else.
Somebody can look at the moon and say it’s close enough to a perfect circle to use the square root of pi and shoot a projectile with a human inside at it. Somebody can look at another person and say they’re angelic enough to heed a lifestyle. You can be your own god and create your own math. At this point in time, we’ve been born into a world of somebody else’s math, and somebody else’s god, so to speak. We both think, therefore we both believe we are. I don’t know how much better it can be expressed.
Mitch, ever try opening up your senses to such concepts as creative visualization? Ever try to hone your intuition and see the future? Have you ever noticed how much information can be communicated between two human beings instantaneously without so much as a word being spoken?
Beyond science, math, religion…we are retarded beings, part of the infinite, a paradox unto ourselves. We look at children and believe they are ignorant of the knowledge of how the universe works (math/religion/whatever), yet we survive with or without that knowledge. We do not see ourselves as children, or that the “rules’ of math, science, religion…categorized methods of perception….are encompassed by infinitely more levels of ‘mature” understanding. The best we can do is know the concept exists, we don’t even have to hope to achieve greater understandings within our limited period of perception (what is time but a relative illusion). There is always that which we don’t know but could, IF we choose to know it. It’s as arbitrary as something can be. Math is one of many games we can play to satisfy our “religious” understanding of the universe and literally surf outerspace. There’s little difference to surfing outerspace or the ocean….it’s just a game. Specific diseased people use the rules of the games very selfishly.
December 31, 2011 at 11:36 am
Eric Kirk
There is no such thing as a perfect circle
That’s false. I’ve already provided one example, and it wasn’t the moon.
And if you think you can make up your own math, then please, show me a way to calculate the circumference using the radius, without using pi. Or by changing its value according to your desire. And make it work every single time. I will be convinced if you can make it work twice.
December 31, 2011 at 11:40 am
suzy blah blah
It appears that Ernie has simply replaced “God” with the word “science.”
-LOL! i thought at first he he must be trying to make a joke. Until i snapped to how totally and absolutely stupid they can be after reading Mitch say,
some of us are calling the nature of the universe itself science.
-after i stopped laughing i just had to shake my head in disbelief, ppl like Ernie and Mitch are a funnier self parody than any joke you could make about them, and their relationship with their god, er, excuse me, their science.
There is no “the second dimension.”
-and of course Eric goes along with the doctrine.
No one is praying to science. But there’s plenty to be thankful about.
- more insight about the methods of the new religeon from a guy who is prayerful, oops i mean thankful, about how his god, oops i mean his science, helped him to destroy the forest, oops i mean helped us live to be over 35..
The day mathematics can “explain” the power of Shakespeare or Van Gogh is the day I’ll eat my hat.
-Erasmus, that sounds like a performance piece, didnt Van Gogh eat his hat once? Maybe youll have a new purpose in the new scientific utopia.
December 31, 2011 at 11:40 am
Erasmus
A lot of the disagreements are semantic or quibbling. I do not see the “solid facts” that Ernie does, save for those facts that enable our technologies. (And the homages to science would be muted without technology, for modern man with his science library is no more at home in the universe than Milton or Pascal with their 17th century funds of knowledge. ) Technology is the manipulation of dead matter, and it has provided us with wonders. As someone who believes that mind (not just human, not just rational) is more fundamental to the universe than matter (and I would love to cite passages from ‘The Mysterious Universe’ by James Jeans in my defense) I see scientific materialism as a pinchbeck faith, one that the vast majority of human beings will never accept — nor should they. — It’s odd that no one has cited Einstein’s words on religion and science, to which I wholly subscribe. You know: how one without the other is either lame or blind. I think Suzi would agree with Einstein and with me ….. anyone else?
December 31, 2011 at 11:43 am
suzy blah blah
The rules of math helped specific people accomplish specific goals. The rules of religion helped specific accomplish specific goals. Neither are necessary, both are arbitrary. There is what you are doing, nothing else.</i?
-rejoice!
December 31, 2011 at 11:55 am
suzy blah blah
The single most important decision any of us will ever make is whether or not to believe the universe is friendly. Albert Einstein
Called or uncalled, God is present. –Desiderius Erasmus
-off topic, happy new year
December 31, 2011 at 12:13 pm
Mitch
Well, I guess blah at 11:40 about sums it up. We’ll go on shouting things at one another from across the divide. I see blah as self-parody, she seems me as such.
This has helped clarify things for me, but I’m going to trot my free will out for another run and say goodbye to this thread again.
December 31, 2011 at 12:14 pm
Anonymous
eric…a perfect circle exists within the event horizon of a black hole? Look into what the event horizon is (other than theory to begin with), it boils down to a philosophical concept. Also, you only believe black holes exist because you choose to. You never have, nor ever will, know entirely for sure.
Solid proof…like the event horizon of a black hole???
December 31, 2011 at 12:20 pm
Anonymous
for the record, none of this discussion bothers me. It’s fun to update my knowledge to language ratio…I’ve discussed this at length before many times. If I can be stumped, I’ll share my hat slathered in ketchup with erasmus and suzy.
December 31, 2011 at 12:22 pm
Eric Kirk
Not within. The event horizon is measured as a perfect sphere, and yes I do mean perfect.
And no, the event horizon is not a philosophical concept. It is a physical occurrence. There are questions about the event horizon’s properties, and the limitations of general relativity to explain the occurrences, but the phenomenon itself is observable and measurable.
And no, black holes are no longer a subject of theory. 20 years ago you could have made that argument.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7774287.stm
In fact, Hawking just recently lost a 30 year old bet on the subject.
http://techie-buzz.com/science/cygnus-black-hole-hawking.html
December 31, 2011 at 1:13 pm
suzy blah blah
The event horizon is measured as a perfect sphere, and yes I do mean perfect. And no, the event horizon is not a philosophical concept.
-did you hear that? the voice of Absolute Authority speaks. Eric’s daddy can beat up yours, nana nana nana …
December 31, 2011 at 1:18 pm
Ernie's Place
Okay, I propose a contest. Both the science based people, and the God and religion based people, will shoot a rocket to land on the moon, then bring it back. Each will build and launch their own rocket. The result will be for someone to hand me a rock from the moon.
GO…
God people get to pray that it gets there and back.
Rocket scientists get to use science to get it there and back.
I think that points out a pretty dramatic difference.
December 31, 2011 at 2:08 pm
suzy blah blah
-these no nonsense Scientarians are solid immovable units, hard as nails made from moonrock. And God, oops i mean Concrete Reality, is on their side. So you better beware, Ernies not just sticking his thumbs in his ears and wiggling his fingers at you. He’s telling you, following Eric’s example, that his daddy can beat up yours.
December 31, 2011 at 4:37 pm
Anonymous
wow…eric, not to be snide, but perfect circles and/or spheres do not exist anywhere but in the mind’s eye. Pi needs perfect circles to exist…as well as “the second dimension”…and black holes, to whatever degree “proven” are still largely theorized. Don’t get me started on black holes, space is the place.
December 31, 2011 at 5:09 pm
Eric Kirk
With all due respect 4:37, your information, or lack thereof, is dated.
December 31, 2011 at 5:42 pm
suzy blah blah
-respect my butt. But i suppose that they cant help it, they are sick puppies, whove been brainwashed with science in progressive stages at school. Is it any surprise they now behold “math” as an absolute truth, integral with the entire universe as it exists without question?
“There’s no reality except the one contained within us. That’s why so many people live an unreal life. They take images outside them for reality and never allow the world within them to assert itself.”
Herman Hesse
January 1, 2012 at 1:26 am
Anonymous
“Mathematics is the language with which God has written the universe.”
Said by Galileo Galilei, who knew something about standing up to religion
January 1, 2012 at 1:38 am
Anonymous
suzy did a video!
January 1, 2012 at 8:17 am
Erasmus
Well-said, Anonymous —– Galileo did stand up to organized religion, as did Jesus. What else is new?
January 1, 2012 at 11:02 am
Anonymous
“With all due respect 4:37, your information, or lack thereof, is dated.”
Well I hate to be the one to rain down the hammers of absolute truth upon thee, but if you want to suggest my information is dated, it’s YOU who has never even heard of zoogaboogadoobliaphormorzosis, so how can you even begin to suggest that? I’ve traveled to the future, and in the future, stuff is really real. Stuff you can’t even imagine yet, like zoogaboogadoobliaphormorzosis, so donchoo go talkin to me like MY info is dated.
January 1, 2012 at 4:46 pm
suzy blah blah
-anonymous, thnx 4 the links to the vids. Its not that Galileo was wrong, it’s that he wasn’t “right”. The point being that his is one of many ways of
comprehending “how God made the universe” and it is in no way superior to or more correct then that of Genesis or a Native American creation story,
except within its own narrow framework. But you wont see that expressed in
school.
Unfortunately the scientific viewpoint since Galileo’s time has become the
way that the majority of westerners have come to understand how the universe works, largely through the educational system, so that scientific materialism tries to take the place of “spirituality”. I put it in quote marks because what i mean by spirituality is not ancient religions, or is it a “newage project” saying that it’s attempting to “reveal happiness” to us through a special effects video about giving each other more hugs, as Eric may think of it. I am talking about communication with an “energy” within. And when i say within i dont mean within a youtube video, or a textbook about pi, or the bible or I Ching. I mean within myself, or yourself.
And when i say an “energy within”, i dont mean that i call it God. I can talk to the Universe, the sun, the earth, etc, cuz theyre alive. And no, they don’t answer me, like, Hey how ya doing Suzy? They don’t speak English or Tibetan or something. LOL, I can’t hear them that way, but on a total cellular level, a spiritual level, I can certainly hear them. And they guide
me and they teach me. I don’t call that the voice of God speaking to me,
but if someone else speaks of the voice of God, they may be referencing the same thing, or –they may not.
Reason and science is what takes meaning away. Or at least has risin it to a crisis level. The scientific (objective) attitude lacks passion, it depersonalizes. In school they show you a map of the universe and they call that truth. But it’s a sham in that it depersonalizes and makes us feel
like a fraction of an inch on a huge billion mile scale. This is not who we
are and this “truth” makes us feel very very small –and all that much easier to manipulate.
Its not that i feel that science should be abandoned all together, just that
it needs to be seen as one of many many tools with which to gain understanding. A kind of understanding. Galileo, in my view, has no more an “educated” view of God’s workings than the southern Mexican who said,
“I knew and saw God: an immense clock that ticks, the spheres that go
slowly around, and inside the stars, the earth, the entire universe, the
day and the night, the cry and the smile, the happiness and the pain. He
who knows to the end of the secret of the ‘teo-nanácatl’ can even see
that infinite clockwork.”
tick tick tick
Visions and knowledge of this sort was available and understood long before Galileo. The indian quoted didnt just think about things at her desk while playing with a compass and protractor, she saw a vision of God. Inside.
It doesnt matter whether Jesus rose from the dead, literally, to have an
understanding of it symbolically. And it doesnt make it any less meaningful, people believed in immortality long before Jesus came along. It’s the inner understanding thats important to one, not the historical.
Likewise, Adam and Eve are not actual historical figures, but representatives of two intrapsychic principles within every human being. But science wants “outside” confirmation, and puts little or
no value on knowledge that comes from within. It’s an arrogant attitude and a false pride that says, “were right, weve got the truth, religion is just a fairy tale, weve investigated, weve dug up the fossilizes that prove it, we know the universe is more than 6000yrs old”, etc.
January 2, 2012 at 12:34 am
Unk John
Wow! I walk away for a couple of days and this thread turns REALLY interesting.
I question whether or not some anonymous poster was correct in his assessment of one of Bolithio’s statements, make a statement about science being more utilitarian than religion, and Suzy then jumps on me apparently in the belief that I worship that utilitarianism. I not only don’t worship it, I don’t even like it in most cases. I’m simply stating a fact. Science and math have produced a plethora of useful gadgets. We are all using the results of these wonders as we discuss whether or not you believe that science is a religion.
Another anonymous – I don’t know, maybe the same – keeps referring to his/her belief that there is no such thing as a perfect circle. In nature, I am sure he/she is correct, which is one reason why some of those heathen mathematicians came up with “fractals.” They anticipated some of the objections put forth by anonymous by stating things like, “clouds are not circles, mountains are not triangles, shorelines are not straight lines, etc.”, and eventually discovered some simple rules that go a long way toward describing some rather complicated looking situations.
As far as I am concerned, I love this thread.
January 2, 2012 at 12:49 am
Unk John
BTW, Blah’s post above mine is super. I can’t argue against what she says. She is absolutely right. Science does take the passion out of the equation. It does depersonalize. There is no question of that, in fact it is crucial for it to do so. I think everyone here is aware of that.
Suzy, is it ok if I simply state that I believe that the world is more than 6000 years old based on evidence dug up by weirdos that dig things up?
January 2, 2012 at 8:38 am
Mitch
Unk John,
Science may take the “passion” out of the examination of the evidence, but it certainly doesn’t take the “awe” away from the observer and the observed.
January 2, 2012 at 10:38 am
Eric Kirk
Reason and science is what takes meaning away.
I don’t believe that at all.
January 2, 2012 at 10:58 am
Ernie's Place
I’m glad to see Unk John dive back into this conversation. He’s somebody that has worked with numbers and science his whole life, so he has some insight that a few others of us don’t have. He would be the first to understand that when you talk about anything “perfect” it is by definition only. Something “defined” as a “perfect circle”, is perfect. However, in reality, even if you had a circle one hundred billion miles in diameter and it was only one carbon molecule out of diameter, it would still not be a perfect circle. Neither is there any such thing a “perfect vacuum”. One little carbon molecule floating around in the middle of it would spoil it. Same with “Absolute zero” in temperature. There is no such thing in nature. Only by definition. Absolute zero is only a theoretical manifestation of perfection.
Yet… there are those that will still say that 5 plus 5 equals 15, because it works for them and there is no reasoning with them, so it may as well be 15. And, those people seem to live as long as the rest of us. Except for a few dramatic cases lately where children have died while the parents prayed over them, instead of taking them in for traditional medicine. Then that was countered by “If the children died, it was God’s will”. Thank God most people don’t go that far with their “beliefs”.
January 2, 2012 at 11:03 am
suzy blah blah
-your in denial Eric. Like a good little sheep.
January 2, 2012 at 11:12 am
Eric Kirk
Actually suzy, reason and science has opened up so much wonder to bask in, I’m sorry that you choose to abstain from it. You’re missing out.
And as “edited for rednecks.”
January 2, 2012 at 11:23 am
Unk John
Mitch, I couldn’t agree more. I remember a ling time ago, when Jacob Bronowski’s “The Ascent of Man” was being shown episode by episode on PBS. A friend of mine commented that it seemed that Bronowski was “Too much in awe” of the material he presented. I’ve always thought that he was in awe because he understood.
Ernie, you are too kind. I promise, the next time I come to Garberville, I will visit the local Radio Shack. I would be honored to meet you in person. The last time I was there (last summer), I was with my sister and a friend. We stopped to visit my nephew, a local lawyer, and he collared us into acting as witnesses to the signing of a will. It’s always something.
Suzy, how do you know, spiritually, that the “meaning” Eric is talking about is not the same as of what you are speaking?
BTW, Ernie, have you seen the Douglas Adams quote from one of his books (I can’t remember which one)? I will have to paraphrase: “He hoped and prayed that there was no afterlife. Then, he realized there was a contradiction in that statement and merely hoped that there was no afterlife.”
January 2, 2012 at 11:24 am
suzy blah blah
-more sarcastic arrogance and childish my god can beat up your god jeering from the blog master..
January 2, 2012 at 11:27 am
suzy blah blah
Suzy, how do you know, spiritually, that the “meaning” Eric is talking about is not the same as of what you are speaking?
-you are missing my point Unk. Think “meaningful” instead of meaning and youll see what im saying. Not that anyone has to agree. Just my 2cents.
January 2, 2012 at 11:37 am
Anonymous
On the original topic of the thread, I watched it over the weekend. As someone who was in Berkeley at the time I still don’t understand Nathan Glazer’s attitude about the Free Speech Movement. I would like to hear or read more.
The documentary is thought provoking however.
January 2, 2012 at 12:21 pm
Anonymous
Mitch, my scenario about floating in the ocean isn’t about the gloom, but it’s a relatively easy situation for just about anybody to imagine themselves in, and from within contemplate the arbitrary nature of math.
No matter how you argue it…that “fate” put you in that situation, or the mathematical behavior of infinite molecular chain reactions beginning zillions of years ago had placed you there…your choice in what to believe at that point would be completely legitimate. I forgot to mention a dolphin invites our hero to ride his dorsal fin to safety, and lives happily ever after. Doubtful that our hero would have a “mathematical” awakening, or a “scientific” awakening after that, but could and would still firmly believe in and adhere to the principles of math and science in addition to a “spiritual” awakening…complete revolution within.
Whereas you are saying there’s something all around me that exists whether I like it or not, I’m telling you there’s something more than that which ONLY EXISTS IF AND WHEN YOU CHOOSE. I see and believe in “math” and “science” and the same universe we both exist within…there are people who CHOOSE to see something more…that in which the universe exists. As you can compound your belief in math and do such things as slingshot satelites around space, you can compound your understanding of that which supercedes ALL formalities ONLY if you CHOOSE to recognize such a “thing” exists.
Your loss.
January 2, 2012 at 1:17 pm
Anonymous
Anonymous 12:21,
I think we are in basic agreement. When the dolphin saves me, I think I will have just as much pleasure, just as much gratitude, just as much sense of the amazing amounts of good in a world where we all eat one another to survive.
But I will also recognize that the dolphin’s behavior, including its pleasure in saving me, can be explained. Not why the pleasure is there, but to lower and lower levels, how the pleasure came to be.
That understanding may prove useful if I ever see a pretty but deadly flower.
I completely agree that meaning often appears when it is sought, and I can speak from direct experience, not cartoons. I’m sure most sophisticated religious people completely agree as well, and I have known many such people who I admire, and one such person who I certainly looked to as a teacher until she died. Hell, I’ve even been a heavy-duty participant in groups where I still haven’t decided whether or not they were cults.
But the prejudice that science and math are not part of that search for meaning leaves me cold. Often, I believe such prejudice is verbalized by people who have simply decided that science is responsible for negative aspects of our society, while they themselves have risen above all that.
It has been my experience that some such people hide their ignorance under an enormously patronizing veneer of wisdom. In my opinion, anyone who thinks they are “good” and their society is “bad” is completely deluded.
January 2, 2012 at 1:33 pm
Mitch
Anonymous 12:21,
I think we are in basic agreement. When the dolphin saves me, I think I will have just as much pleasure, just as much gratitude, just as much sense of the amazing amounts of good in a world where we all eat one another to survive.
But I will also recognize that the dolphin’s behavior, including its pleasure in saving me, can be explained. Not why the pleasure is there, but to lower and lower levels, how the pleasure came to be.
That understanding may prove useful if I ever see a pretty but deadly flower.
I completely agree that meaning often appears when it is sought, and I can speak from direct experience, not cartoons. I’m sure most sophisticated religious people completely agree as well, and I have known many such people who I admire, and one such person who I certainly looked to as a teacher until she died. Hell, I’ve even been a heavy-duty participant in groups where I still haven’t decided whether or not they were cults.
But the prejudice that science and math are not part of that search for meaning leaves me cold. Often, I believe such prejudice is verbalized by people who have simply decided that science is responsible for negative aspects of our society, while they themselves have risen above all that.
It has been my experience that some such people hide their ignorance under an enormously patronizing veneer of wisdom. In my opinion, anyone who thinks they are “good” and their society is “bad” is completely deluded.
January 2, 2012 at 2:00 pm
suzy blah blah
In my opinion, anyone who thinks they are “good” and their society is “bad” is completely deluded.
-i totally agree. Mathematics, though useful in its proper place, has become over-valued and has consequently lead us to deny reality. As we become immersed in its abstractions we forget that in reality there is only one number, one. This forgetting allows us to project evil on to the “other”.
Contrariwise, when in communion with the One, personally, eating the sacrament and remembering, you are the whole thing –ONE is both good and evil. Thats called transcendence of the opposites, not understood intellectually but in the heart.
the longest journey anyone will ever take is from the head to the heart
chief Seattle
btw, Mitch, how many “this will be my last posts” have you made on this thread. It’s okay, youre sooooo passionate LOL!
January 2, 2012 at 3:03 pm
Ernie's Place
Suzy
First, you know that I have always accepted you as one of the smartest people that I know. (except when you thought that I deleted your comments from my blog. I would never do that.)
I have never been in any kind of competition over, “My God can beat-up your God”. I know better than to say I understand all of your thoughts, but I will have to say that you have provoked me to think harder than most of the people around me. Just as some people will like the color blue and others may like the color red, that does not make one color better than another. The fact that you believe vastly different than me does not make me respect you any less. As you have cuddled up in your own world, and you seem to be happy with it. I live in an uncomfortable world, where I try to sort out the real from the imaginary, but I have to admit that I have a desire to dive into Alice in Wonderland. However, I know that I would never do that, because I have a strong fear of losing my grasp on reality.
Not being a believer in anything but the “real physical world”. I would never trust in prayer. I fear not being able to take care of myself if I stepped out of this “real” world, so that precludes any “trips” that I might take. I also understand that my thoughts are in an extreme minority, especially in Garberville. I’m often amazed at how people can survive abandoning the “real” world, but most seem to.
Please don’t think that my “real” world is in anyway boring. I’m often astounded by the new things that I discover each day. We live in an amazing universe. One of the things that I liked about Carl Sagan is that his deep intelligence was apparent, but he always explained detailed concepts in a language that even a child could understand and appreciate. He didn’t use terms like 10 to the 9th power, he simply said “a Billion”. He opened the wonders of the universe to people like me. I have have spent a lifetime beating on my fingers and working for a living. He caused me to explore many concepts that I might not have otherwise explored. He and others like him caused me to wonder. Many people in my life has caused me to wonder. Suzy is one of them. So, even though you often anger me, and I sometimes think that I’m playing Calvin ball with you. I’m always caused to think, and I think that improves me. I have a feeling that you are one of the real things in my life. But, that would be one of those qualities that would be hard to measure.
January 2, 2012 at 3:16 pm
Eric Kirk
On the original topic of the thread, I watched it over the weekend. As someone who was in Berkeley at the time I still don’t understand Nathan Glazer’s attitude about the Free Speech Movement. I would like to hear or read more.
Here is a letter exchange from the time which reveals a little bit.
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/1965/feb/11/berkeley-an-exchange/?pagination=false
I think Jackie Goldberg, who was interviewed in the film, had more to say about her exchanges with Glazer, but I’ve only just started reading the book.
And this links to a pdf article on the student movement by Glazer – not sure what date.
http://www.nationalaffairs.com/public_interest/detail/student-power-in-berkeley
I don’t know where he came down on the faculty vote itself.
January 2, 2012 at 10:00 pm
suzy blah blah
-cuddled up? Ernie dont make the uneducated assumption that youre more uncomfortable than suzy. Unless you have evidence of proof we’ll just have to assign that to being a figment of your imagination.
January 2, 2012 at 10:38 pm
Anonymous
What’s a figment?
January 3, 2012 at 12:03 am
Unk John
It’s a small fig. It wasn’t ment to be picked so soon.
January 3, 2012 at 11:11 am
suzy blah blah
-LOL Unk, if Ernie hits figs with his hammer hes gonna get jam. So to say it with a word thats not too small to be picked by suzy, and may be more appropriate for Ernies hammer –”we’ll have to assign that to being a construction of his imagination”.
January 3, 2012 at 11:31 am
Anonymous
mitch and 1:17, we’re in agreement in as much as we simply are. Fundamentally, though, our perception is very different. Some literally “see” something you don’t. 1:17, I’m not somehow ‘negating’ math whatsoever as your post concludes. To suggest my way of thinking sees “math” and “science” as condescending or a threat, works both ways. “Some such people” is not me. I’m not threatening the fundamentals of your way of thinking. I’m not belittling math, math is Donkey Kong and I love a good game. But there is no ape, there are no flaming barrels and nobody is mario. There is no nintendo. There is no “math” but what you choose to believe. Y’all question “free will” fer cryin’ out loud, as the entire foundation of math and science refute the notion save their write-off “paradox”. That which encompasses “math” and “science” IS then paradox. There is life in the sun, and in molecular activity. There is consciousness beyond ours and we are as much of it as we choose to be.
Howzabout this weather? Our existing wealthy institutions of math, science, religion, etc. have done wonders for the health of this planet. /sarcasm.
“We’ve accomplished the possible, it’s time to accomplish the impossible.”
~sun ra
January 3, 2012 at 11:35 am
Anonymous
…read 1:17 earlier and mitch just now…didn’t realize they were dupes….woooooo…long night.
What do you think infinity feels like?
January 3, 2012 at 1:24 pm
Not A Native
Eric, the event horizon of a black hole is a conceptual description, so to declare one a ‘perfect sphere’ is simply reiterating a concept, just a more ‘gee whiz’ one than Archimedes used. As usual, you misunderstand something but frame your wrong ideas with nifty jargon to deflect potential challenges and refutations.
If you actually went to the place of a black hole event horizon you likely wouldn’t find anything there, just empty normal space. Nothing that physically forms the demarcation of a ‘perfect’ sphere. So an event horizon is a perfect sphere in the same sense as a
I suggest you read ‘Black Hole Wars’ to try to understand how physicist(who coined the idea) understand an event horizon. Leonard Suskind(the author) also makes a case that the universe we perceive(including ourselves) could be a holographic projection of actual information which exists far outside.
And BTW, since Einstein explained spacetime, we’ve(at least some of us) been aware that there are at least four physical dimensions.
January 3, 2012 at 2:07 pm
Anonymous
ALL HAIL EINSTEIN!!! His words prove there are at least four physical dimensions to our existence. (??????)
Back to reality, NAN….
January 3, 2012 at 2:32 pm
Eric Kirk
Actually NAN, the event horizon represents the point at which the speed of light is no longer an escape velocity, which means that it’s going to be dark (to the eye from without) within the event horizon, and light without. I don’t know whether it would look like a big black hole, but whatever effect, the radius from the singularity to event horizon would be fixed according to the mass at the singularity and it would be exactly equidistant every direction outward. That by definition is a sphere, and since a singularity lacks any diversity with regard to the center of gravity, it would indeed represent a perfect sphere.
And as I’m thinking of it, the same is true of the gravity around any fixed point of mass, or “center of gravity. The gravitational impact emits, in effect, from the point, as a perfect sphere, even though the effect would be distorted by other gravitation sources. Therefor, you have perfect circles in the universe as a matter of routine, in terms of the gravitational effect of any center of gravity point.
But the event horizon is possible to observe as a perfect sphere because there is a distance from which light will escape and anything less from which the light will be drawn to the singularity.
January 3, 2012 at 2:43 pm
Anonymous
eric, your centrifugal point is relative and obstruct, besides as much surface to energy as there is to matter. Even besides that, you’re still creating a figment beginning with your first hand experience outside the atmosphere of this planet. You don’t believe in “heaven” but you believe in “the second dimension”. You believe other human beings regarding all that you said, nothing more. To think, if they didn’t believe that stuff, they wouldn’t be able to slingshot satelites around space. You’ve gotta believe in what you’re doing, no surprise there.
But there’s a lot more to what’s happening, if you open up your senses to it. Follow coincidence in your life, understand deja vu, we can begin to “see” so much more…”math” is a game. It’s santa clause and the easter bunny.
January 3, 2012 at 2:53 pm
suzy blah blah
Suzy, is it ok if I simply state that I believe that the world is more than 6000 years old based on evidence dug up by weirdos that dig things up?
-you can say whatever Unk. But dragging out that old moth eaten and besides the point argument against an insightful story with deep psychological and meaningful truths, such as Genesis, just shows what a stick in the mud you are. And btw, suzy never called anyone “weirdos”, thats another strawman that Unk tried to build by putting words into my mouth in a lame attempt to bolster his argument. With dim bulbs like him teaching our schoolchildren is it any wonder that they are so in the dark, spiritually.
January 3, 2012 at 2:56 pm
suzy blah blah
suzy made a video
-its ironic that in a discussion about the evils of science anonymous brings up Fukyushima. LOL!
January 3, 2012 at 3:23 pm
Eric Kirk
2:43 – I believe in the second dimension? Sure, I guess I believe that objects have width.
As for your post, I don’t get how it even addresses my points. There’s nothing “relative” about a center of gravity in a fixed set of mass. You’re confusing concepts.
January 3, 2012 at 3:34 pm
Anonymous
eric, maybe you’re just confused…clinging to professors of math and science for guidance. You talk like you’ve spent more time in outerspace than somebody on a mushroom bender.
January 3, 2012 at 4:57 pm
Anonymous
You say “second dimension” eric, as well as “pi” and talk about “perfect” circles and spheres that you’ve read about in all kinds of books.
Your words, not mine.
I don’t believe in depth, I know depth. It’s not “deep’ thinking. Confusing concepts? It’s all a concept, it’s too funny that you and etc. don’t get it. If you had absolute free will, what would you do right now? You make yourselves subservient to your own rules, else you would see beyond them. Did you grow up under authoritarian conditions? Would you know it if you were? Can you imagine what you would think of the universe if you had grown up 50,000 years ago? Are you going to “google” what this planet earth was like 50,000 years ago, so you can provide an answer according to the knowledge you immediately acquired through “wikipedia”? Your decades of reading books by certified certificators about their absolute “math” has you believing exactly what those books have told you to believe. You watch their TV shows, you are bombarded by them every day. You are a true believer (in math), you actually seek out new mathematical descriptions, knowing full well that the certified certificators are writing them down faster than you can keep up. They have at their fingertips all the past writings of “math”, and are riding the fringe of infinity, every day a new discovery to describe with “math”. There is no denying your description of math, there are too many followers one would have to deny. Math isn’t up for debate.
You think math, therefore math am. There is so much more we are capable of, beyond the confines of our body. There is consciousness to activity, you see “math”. The behavior of “math”, the absolute “math”, ever objective “math”, beyond justice and injustice “math”, without art “math”, void of intention, void of life, life is math… it is the absolute description of what is, and we are of it whether we believe so or not.
whatever!
January 3, 2012 at 6:26 pm
Bolithio
an insightful story with deep psychological and meaningful truths, such as Genesis,
You’ve got to be kidding suzy…
January 3, 2012 at 9:00 pm
suzy blah blah
-wake up Bolithio, “Eden is spread upon the earth but men do not see it.”
We’re kept out of the Garden by our desire and our fear. Our desire for the status quo and our fear of, as Ernie says. “losing our grip on reality”. ie our ego.
January 3, 2012 at 9:24 pm
Unk John
Suzy – Apparently, my actual intent with the “weirdos” comment was far more lame than the intent you assigned it. I meant no harm, it was supposed to be humorous. I apologize, it is difficult to find a “humor font” on my keyboard.
On the other issue, concerning my moth eaten arguments, I am willing to agree that the implied arguments in my statement are not new. But I am not sure I understand the hostility you show to the statement. I have said nothing about Genesis or the stories therein. I have no problem with people looking for meaning in them. I’m just wondering why stating that I believe that the world is more than 6000 years old warrants such derision. I’m perfectly willing to discuss the story of Genesis. It’s a fascinating story.I make no claim of faith in the tale, but it is a good read.
January 3, 2012 at 9:52 pm
suzy blah blah
-sorry Unk, my hostility isnt really to you but towards the idea that science makes the truth of genesis invalid.
January 3, 2012 at 10:49 pm
suzy blah blah
popular idea
January 3, 2012 at 10:52 pm
Anonymous
Hallaluyooooyaaa Sister Suzy! Preach the Word!
January 4, 2012 at 12:18 am
suzy blah blah
aummmm …
January 4, 2012 at 10:46 am
suzy blah blah
I have said nothing about Genesis or the stories therein. I have no problem with people looking for meaning in them. I’m perfectly willing to discuss the story of Genesis. It’s a fascinating story.
-suzys opinion is that it should be taught in the schools, starting at the elementary school level.
-Joel, are you out there? There must be a cartoon idea in here somewhere about, The Perfect Circle –LOL! Suzy’s not sayin it does or doesnt exist … but it sure would be awefully boring if every time you sliced an orange in half –thats what you got.
Its the imperfections in life that make it interesting. Look at the people around you. The “perfect” person is a bore. Its the imperfections in a person that make them loveable.
January 4, 2012 at 1:33 pm
Anonymous
There are a lot more interesting creation stories than genesis, imo. “studied” the bible in public highschool, my only real exposure. So I know what it is as a story, and there are way better stories of how it all went down than the Holy Bible, and they all make just as much if not more sense. Knowing the bible makes it easy to justify the corrupt behavior we see everywhere today, specifically because the corrupt behavior we see today is of a population largely influenced by taking the Holy Bible very seriously. The benefit of having been exposed to the bible, is seeing for myself where the good lies within its philosophy.Religious institutions aren’t “bad” because of their organized nature. It’s the nature of the corrupted human being to manipulate others by any means they figure. The “bad guys” can and do win.They disregard some of the absolute “rules” of behavior we bestow upon ourselves, and that we adhere to “religiously”. When somebody trashes “religion” in any way shape or form, I can’t help but wonder what their exposure to religion has been their entire life, and how they are choosing to mentally process that exposure at that current moment. One of our arbitrary capabilities, to be arbitrary in a universe where arbitrary behavior is impossible.
January 4, 2012 at 4:13 pm
Not A Native
Actually Eric, you’ve demonstated here you don’t know shit about the concept of an event horizon. A blog is too short to recity your false understandings but as a practical matter being ‘within’ an event horizon(of a large enough black hole) the world would look to uss exactly as it does now. I don’t know where you get your wrongheaded ideas, I only assume it from the Disney movie or just making illinformed conclusions from a few news items. But for this thread, you should know, an event horizon isn’t an object. So it can be a ‘perfect’ sphere only in the same sense that every circle is a ‘perfect’ circle. By definition.
Your musings about gravity is also naive. Simply ignorant of quantum mechanics which requires that fluctuations always exist. And likely, physicists will discover that gravity(and space) is quantized.
January 5, 2012 at 11:30 am
Eric Kirk
Simply ignorant of quantum mechanics which requires that fluctuations always exist.
See, that is exactly the disservice authors like that of The Tao of Physics do to the public. Someone like you, who have never so much as completed a lever equation in high school physics, read it and then you believe you’re an expert on quantum physics no matter how inaccurate or misleading the book was to begin with, let alone the advancements in understanding ever since.
Quantum mechanics do not require that “fluctuations always exist.” That is interpretation of counter-intuitive properties we don’t understand which because somebody suggested that the science transcended “classical causality,” it led some new age dingbats to conclude that it proves that there are no fixed laws to the physical universe. And it plays right into the lazy frame of mind which either lacks the curiosity as to the workings of the universe and therefor wishes to denigrate the attempt in terms of some sort of lack of spiritual center. We all “know” even if we haven’t learned – oh so cosmic, because I’m in touch with the pre-industrial non-western consciousness and you are not and so therefor I can accept the paradoxes while you cannot.
It all sounds nice and liberal arts professors can wow the freshmen with it, but it’s really an oversimplified account of quantum mechanics, the understanding of which have moved well beyond.
Under most theories, the event horizon, although perceived differently according to your relative movement, and will always appear to be the same size and distance, does indeed appear as black from without. If you pass into the event horizon, you will not perceive it as black because the light operates within, and in theory you will still be looking at a black circle below you. And in fact, any object which had entered the horizon would still appear to be outside of it, even though it’s below you. These are counter-intuitive given our everyday experience and classical physics, but they aren’t magic. They follow laws which are independent of our understanding or perception.
But the point of the event horizon is a fixed distance based upon the mass which has entered the singularity – equidistant in all directions, which is, functionally as well as conceptually, a sphere.
A good reading is Isaac Asimov’s Black Holes, Pulsars, and Quasars, which has been updated since his death.
January 5, 2012 at 12:06 pm
suzy blah blah
“studied” the bible in public highschool, my only real exposure.
-at least you got something. As far as i know there arent any HSs much less elementary schools teaching it in Humboldt.
the corrupt behavior we see today is of a population largely influenced by taking the Holy Bible very seriously.
-much more corrupted by taking science seriously.
January 5, 2012 at 12:47 pm
Mitch
I propose this thread be diverted to answering the following questions:
Essay (5 points):
(1) What’s a quantum mechanic?
Fill in the blank (5 points):
(2) You know you’re a quantum mechanic when…
Connect each item in column A with its match in column B. Items may be used multiple times (1 point per correct answer):
3 I’m smarter than … science
4 I’m better than … spirituality
5 Reality is best revealed by … Eric
6 Quantum mechanics understand … love
7 Light is … infinite
8 Light is not …. Richardson Grove
9 Good drugs explain … Not a Native
10 The Universal Essence is … suzy blah blah
11 This thread is … a kick in the butt
12 You’re dumber than … quantum mechanics
13 You’re worse than … Albert Einstein
14 OK, atheists, explain … fractals
True/False
15) The event horizon on a savannah approximates a straight line
16) Quantum electrodynamics can beat up your mama
17) Sour diesel is more expensive than diesel fuel
18) In the tale of Genesis, a day is no more than twenty million years
19) Mitt Romney is mentioned as messiah in the Book of Mormon
20) Lao Tsu said “As light from darkness, so male from female.”
January 5, 2012 at 1:01 pm
Bolithio
much more corrupted by taking science seriously
ahem…. No.
Allen Watts said something like “the Bible should be locked in a cave for 500 years and then re-gifted to man so that he may read it with clean eyes.”
January 5, 2012 at 1:11 pm
Anonymous
“…new age dingbats to conclude that it proves that there are no fixed laws to the physical universe. And it plays right into the lazy frame of mind which either lacks the curiosity as to the workings of the universe and therefor wishes to denigrate the attempt in terms of some sort of lack of spiritual center.”
But there are no fixed laws to the physical universe. It plays right into the lazy frame of mind which either lacks the curiosity as to the workings of the universe and therefor wishes to denigrate the attempt in terms of some sort of lack of mathematical understanding.
…get it?
Bumper stickers for the new agers on top of it all with math:
“Die and go to math”
“Math is my copilot”
“You’re a pile of mathematical circumstance”
“My other car is math”
“Your imagination is just a figment of my math”
“I believe in the rules of math with all the lifeblood my soul has to offer”
January 5, 2012 at 1:17 pm
Anonymous
“Allen Watts said something like “the Bible should be locked in a cave for 500 years and then re-gifted to man so that he may read it with clean eyes.”
And they would say with amazement “this book is printed on paper!” for the timber industry of yesteryears had seen it impossible to afford the natural cycles of the planet to complete themselves, while simultaneously harvesting more and more of it’s natural resources.
January 5, 2012 at 2:24 pm
suzy blah blah
-500years in cave? haha, i get his point, but its not very precise math, nor is it realistic to expect it to happen. On the other hand, speaking realistically, with true observable and scientifically objective facts to back it up, over 95% of the old growth redwoods have been destroyed by men, and chainsaws, in the last 100years. That’s not the musings of a fuzzy headed alcoholic who was a master of clever quips which earned him a spot on the college lecture and tv talk show circuits. No, that’s not a musing at all, its a fact! Objective science tells us it is correct! Mathematically –those numbers equate to a rape of mother earth if their ever was one.
January 5, 2012 at 2:34 pm
Bolithio
OK THATS IT. FU anonymous!!! Where were *you* at redwood summer? What the fuck have you done to improve the situation around here? I was siting wit the kids when shit was real messed up around here, were you??!! I decided to put the pipe down and go to school, and actually work in the field as a direct way of improving our forests. I now sit at the front of conservation practices, treating ton after ton of sediment, restoring our watersheds and fixing grandpa’s roads. What are you doing you chickenshit blogger?? I have spent the last decade developing sustained yield plans for non-industrial landowners all over southern and eastern Humboldt. We have improved, through logging, thousands of acres of previously hammered forests and set them on a trajectory of health and long term sustenance for the people who depend on them. So until you start adding to conversation, with something other than your baseless insults, you can fuck off! We arent even talking about logging here dickfor!
—
Sorry bout that guys’. I feel better now, carry on
January 5, 2012 at 3:37 pm
Not A Native
Wow, ‘lever equation’??? Was that term something you remember hearing from the back row in High School? It may have appeared in Archimedes writings and Physics for non-science majors that Eric took. But it doesn’t appear in academic science of static mechanics.
And a circle is a plane curve equidistant from a particular point. But no circles as objects actually exist in reality, any more than the event horizon as Eric defines.
And a simplistic example that even Eric might grasp about fluctuations in the area around a black hole is Hawking radiation, explained as pair production(quantum fluctuations) in the vicinity of the event horizon.
Rather than playing Eric’s BS game of avoiding web references, here’s an accessible web reference that shows how bogus Eric thinking is. But he’s a legend in his own mind.
January 5, 2012 at 3:51 pm
Ernie's Place
Damn, Are you sure that you are not me Bolithio??? I couldn’t have said it better. Keep up the good work! But DICKFOR is my word, You can’t use it.
January 5, 2012 at 4:27 pm
Anonymous
Oh great preservationist Bolithio…what a buncha blabber. You also cheerlead for more freeway through Richardson Grove, for fugsake. Every single time such subjects come up. The SANCTITY, you stupid muthafucka…of among the most unique environments on the entire planet is completely lost in what you champion..A literal ancient forest, right here in “our” jurisdiction, for “our” immediate pleasure, as well as that of the entire world, to remain as undisturbed throughout time as possible. Except, in this case, when The Freeway people want The Freeway to be bigger…Again. “For everybody!” they always say through the protest. Definitely not for the SANCTITY of the forest whatsoever, which you, “bolithio” piss on at every opportunity on these blogs. Some friggin conservationist…a half assed cheerleader with a fat paycheck is all you are.
January 5, 2012 at 4:37 pm
Anonymous
Oh by the way I received my super masters at the university of the universe,
and I spent five years underwater combing plankton. Also before I donate blood every morning I eat as much raw organic grassfed steak as possible, and drink the milk straight from happy cows. Then I Ribo-boost my Nutrino-Steam stabilizing plan with a quick workout on a Zorro Meister Total Body Breakdownerizer. Then I also write books for the official library of the world, about the official way things are to be described based on how I experience them. So all the bullshit you just bullshitted to us about your merits amounts to the bullshit it is, “bolithio”.
January 5, 2012 at 4:46 pm
Anonymous
I save dolphins who get stuck in trees. I find new homes for endangered termites. I talk to kids about anthropomorphology through the language of teenage mutant ninja turtles. I write emails to friends once in awhile. I only eat recycled vegetables. I tie my shoes with an organic shoe tying calibrator. I earned a medal of honor (but lost it).
No, but for real, my own credentials are:
-Supervisor for the Coastal Cleanup Project, Northern California 1998-2002
-Orchestrated new 5,000 year unconditional lease conditions for over ten million square acres of rainforest in connecticut.
-Contributed 10,000 hours of volunteer service at the Lost in the Woods headquarters, conditions requiring total self sustaining survival skills during 72 hour firestorms.
-Understudied over 500 registered Warlocks in the surrounding provinces of Slovakia.
…the list goes on. Trust me, I know what the hell I’m talking about.
January 5, 2012 at 5:05 pm
Unk John
Ok, I know, I know, but I just can’t let the opportunity go by. Someone has to do it. So, here goes, Ernie and Bo … What’s a dickfor?
January 5, 2012 at 9:11 pm
Ernie's Place
“What’s a dickfor?”
Anonymous doesn’t know either… Drumroll, rimshot.
Thanks Unk, everybody could use a good straightman.
There have been some very important environmental issues in the redwood forest. I, and it sounds like Bolitio were on the right side of getting rid of Hurwitz and the Maxxam corporation. Unfortunately it was far too late. They left our redwood forest sadly diminished. Fortunately there are still thousands and thousands of old growth redwood trees left, so complete devastation was not achieved. And, we still have a very healthy redwood forest remaining, with millions and millions of second growth trees.
Now for the kicker. Any true environmentalist would be 100% behind selective logging and lumber production, with the critters and the land taken into consideration. Trees grow on sunshine, co2, soil nutrients, and water. The north coast soils and climate are one of the few places in the world where redwoods grow profusely. By selective cutting, lumber can be provided for housing and construction. Putting lumber into building sequesters Co2. It would seem that any thinking person would understand that lumber production, when it is done correctly, is one of the most environmentally sound industries in the whole world. There are many positives and no negatives.
I’m not sure what the Richardson’s Grove protest is all about, but I can assure you… It’s not about the redwoods. Most of the redwood experts are stunned that anybody would think that the road will hurt the redwoods. I will have to admit that I don’t really trust the state of California to build anything, but the road is well within the realm of acceptable risk. A clue about the protest would be, “follow the money.” It seems that the path is from the very wealthy, very gullible, very urban types, to our Psudo-environmentalists, that are able to convince the gullible that the forest is in grave danger.
Their scheme is fraudulent, dangerous, and very counterproductive to protecting the true environment. Bolitio is slowly becoming one of my heroes. Dickfor is not very smart.
January 6, 2012 at 7:32 am
Mitch
See the difference between Bolithio and Anonymous? Bolithio believes in shared reality, Anonymous creates its own.
January 6, 2012 at 8:26 am
Bolithio
Thanks guys
And, we still have a very healthy redwood forest remaining, with millions and millions of second growth trees.
By far the most enduring damage in the MAXXAM era will be the depletion and loss of old growth. It was the hardest thing to stop. As far as other issues, in the last years, they agreed to all manner or mitigation for roads and sediment, so they could continue their liquidation. While the story is sad, the outcome now is nothing like the historic era of logging in 50-60s when the real bomb went off. So while its ashame, that we lost that resource, we were able to get them to repair very significant amounts of erosion sites.
I can tell you guys that from what I have seen through various trips through recently logged HRC units it is a whole new world. HRC will have lower volumes overall delivered for the next decade, maybe two. However all the stands they are thinning and ‘cleaning-up’ are setting up for a huge continuous stream of harvest, and will produce some very large diameter trees. The PL/HRC ranch has most of the best redwood sites that exist, and if they can hang on, keep their current ethic, it will pay off big for them.
Its also going to be interesting to have a large scale experiment between a full scale selection operation vrs a traditional early rotation clear cut regime. If HRC can run a profitable operation while creating a better product (tighter grained wood from higher competition factors in selection stands), how long will green diamond keep up their practices?
I bet not long. Clear-cutting will become the tool its support to be, a way to deal with pockets of disease, defect, and restoration. (As opposed to the regeneration method).
January 6, 2012 at 8:58 am
Eric Kirk
I just blocked two posts which contained nothing but nastiness. The ease by which some people can be set off never ceases to amaze me.
January 6, 2012 at 9:02 am
Mitch
When you’re the only standing savior of the sacred, Eric, I’d imagine it’s absolutely vital to overreact, so that people will understand how caring you are.
January 6, 2012 at 9:04 am
Anonymous
I have a masters degree in forest psychology, a doctorate in cerebral intercalculations, spent three and a half years studying tidal moss in a 100 square foot cave, wrote a dissertation for fighting redwood larval rot with recycled coffee grounds…the list goes on and on….
…and because I don’t have any desire (or in bolithio’s case, professional insentive) whatsoever to bullshit you, I’m not going to try to be your fucking friends or convince any of you one way or another of anything. I’ve sat in rooms and watched you 50+ year old wankers think you’re king knowitall shits while being ripped off like a baby by “bolithio”. Fucking fools don’t see the forest through the trees, let alone the bullshit box you’re typing on.
YOU create the reality mitch, nobody’s forcing you one way or another. Fucking dumbass chumps. Gee, that’s going to make you tend to disagree with me even more, and even more often…LOL human nature. You’re as predictable as math.
January 6, 2012 at 9:10 am
Eric Kirk
Does the sacred incorporate expletives? So much for material transcendence.
I did just let one through despite the Anglo-Saxon words. At least it contains some additional substance. Tidal moss is pretty transcendent.
January 6, 2012 at 9:16 am
Mitch
Anonymous,
Close. What makes me disagree with you is having been you. You’re completely right about human nature.
January 6, 2012 at 9:19 am
Anonymous
“The ease by which some people can be set off never ceases to amaze me.”
So what set you off besides the “nastiness” eric?
OH! you thought you were refering to me!
Apparently I’ve commited a fundamental offense in the book of Eric (and mitch)….neither of you are exactly spewing fair voices of reason with your ridicule, now are you? Throw in a few F-words and suddenly you think you know what’s being thought.
January 6, 2012 at 9:21 am
Eric Kirk
Just lace your Anglo-Saxon words with a little substance, and don’t make it too personal and I’ll let the posts through.
And don’t trust anyone over 50.
January 6, 2012 at 9:27 am
Mitch
Anonymous,
It’s also much easier to scream at those who are basically sympathetic than it is to confront those who are confident in their disagreement with your attitude, or who aren’t interested in wasting time talking with you.
That’s an eternal problem for the left.
The shouting (especially, heaven help us, into the internet) doesn’t change a thing except, as you suggest, make it easier for the “opponent” to fall into knee-jerk disagreement. But, again, it does help one’s ego to confirm its importance, and to remind one how right one is, and how wrong everyone else is.
January 6, 2012 at 9:27 am
Anonymous
Your entropy is not on your side, math guys. Have fun, don’t write off our forests in the name of bolithio’s paycheck, this is all I can participate.
Bolithio says: “They also prey on ignorance, which they exploit to maintain their old world dogmas.”
Simpson Timber changed their name to Green Diamond Resources.
January 6, 2012 at 9:33 am
Bolithio
What makes me disagree with you is having been you.
Isn’t crazy how that happens? See Suzy, its the medicine wheel.
January 6, 2012 at 9:33 am
Anonymous
“It’s also much easier to scream at those who are basically sympathetic than it is to confront those who are confident in their disagreement with your attitude, or who aren’t interested in wasting time talking with you.”
You spend a lot of time “talking” “online”….what you just wrote is absolutely not true, and says wonders about where you think somebody “like me” is coming from. I couldn’t disagree with you more on this point. You are behind the times, sorry to break the news to you. Snake oil salesmen don’t go door to door anymore, and unless you know how the new snake goes about his busine$$$, you’re all the more likely to get bit.
“this” (blogland) is nothing. You are reading this text in your little realm of whatever, I’m barefoot and sipping tea at my desk before work. Bla bla bla…your point on attitude is totally irrelevant. Think of it “mathematically”…you’re creating what you believe to be my world, whereas I’m looking at the (mathematical?) bottom line of communicated intent. You, mitch, want to tell me I’m somehow wrong. I’m telling you, your math is whatever you want it to be, but YOU are wrong about its absolute nature.
January 6, 2012 at 9:36 am
Anonymous
Bolithio says: “They also prey on ignorance, which they exploit to maintain their old world dogmas.”
Simpson Timber changed their name to Green Diamond Resources.
bolithio’s such a reasonable and well spoken guy, ain’t he? So polite, so knowledgable.
January 6, 2012 at 9:45 am
Anonymous
Careful, Eric, you forget that I recently celebrated the 19th anniversary of my 5oth birthday.
Mitch and Bolithio, it sounds like we could use a few more people up here in Washington state. Actually, we are haveing more trouble with the prospect of coal trains nowadays. As the musician said, “Coal trains are not Coltranes.”
January 6, 2012 at 9:52 am
Anonymous
As much as I get a kick out of this punching bag, my last words for the day, repeated from above…liars can tell you anthing in the off time, but pay attention to their bottom line….
Oh great preservationist Bolithio…what a buncha blabber. You also cheerlead for more freeway through Richardson Grove, for fugsake. Every single time such subjects come up. EVERY SINGLE TIME!!! The SANCTITY, you stupid muthafucka…of among the most unique environments on the entire planet is completely lost in what you champion.
Who among you follows false prophets, so to speak? “Math” has nothing to do with it.
A great analogy regarding this math debate is the idea of virgins talking about sex. Sure, a virgin can talk all day about what it’s like to have sex…but only from observation. When I experienced for myself, the infinite universe and its unpredictable and arbitrary nature, it’s not something I will ever forget. Mitch thinks he’s “been me”….whatever, he’s a virgin talking about sex. I got A’s in math, english science history all that stuff too. I’m not any more or less intelligent than the next guy, because all there is is what we are doing and how that affects what comes after. “Math”, right? FREE WILL. Overcome somebody else’s lame entropy, see all the easier who’s flowing within somebody else’s entropy.
It’s all in your mind, chumps. Don’t feed the trolls (do as I say, not as I do).
January 6, 2012 at 10:19 am
Anonymous
“The shouting (especially, heaven help us, into the internet) doesn’t change a thing except, as you suggest, make it easier for the “opponent” to fall into knee-jerk disagreement.”
Is that what you do, mitch? Or are you describing the potential of everybody but you? Left? Right? Up? Down? Are you a “winger”? Do you know what a “winger” is? How many wingers does it take to screw in a lightbulb? As many as instructed.
January 6, 2012 at 11:09 am
Anonymous
eric and bolithio have a lot in common…
http://tinyurl.com/779la2x
…they both don’t give a sh-t about the big picture just the same. They wouldn’t have been given the job if they didn’t believe in the “Greater Good” as declared by the hand that feeds them their fat paychecks.
January 6, 2012 at 11:37 am
suzy blah blah
-anonymous, As you and suzy know, the mind isnt restricted to time and space. But you cant debate these sort of issues reasonably with ppl like Eric Bolithio and Mitch because they equate reality with materiality. And they arent open to anything that goes against that prejudice. If you go there they quickly become aggressively defensive cuz all they understand is the Us vs Them frame of reference. And with ppl like them defensiveness and competitiveness have become a way of life. Anything that lies outside of their narrow view of the Universe is automatically rejected out of fear of “losing their grasp on reality” cloaked under the cover of scientific fact. Their church of science cannot grasp the transcendence of the opposites. To them “oneness merely means “one material universe”. LOL! I doubt if there is anything that can wake them up to the wonders of non-materiality. Because to them immaterial substance doesnt exist. Spirit to them means some material form of energy. Freedom means something you can achieve via voting booths or protest marches.
But, ahem, we are more than our egos. Were made in the image of God. And we can become once again one with that image. I wont go into “how” to do that because except for a few exceptions, any talk of spirituality is lost on
deaf ears here. So let them enjoy their videos of Carl Sagan “passionately” preaching in front of a wind machine. Or drool over some burnout special effects film maker’s sunsets and slow-mo flowers opening. And oo and ah while on the audio some dude with an Indian accent yammers on about “how to cultivate your response to a sunset”. LOL! And to “let everyone on the street that you meet be blessed by you”. How narcissistic can you get? All one can do is let them wallow in their ignorance, i highly doubt if such deeply brainwashed ppl will ever wake up to reality.
“Rule One in the manual of cosmic mechanics: a linear wrench will not turn a spiral bolt.”
Tom Robbins
January 6, 2012 at 11:49 am
Anonymous
I absolutely agree, suzy, with everything you’ve written. I know myself to still be learning how to use language to convey what I know…but I make no secret of getting a kick out of the punching bag that is the “blogsphere”. Eric jokes about my remark “don’t trust anybody over 50″. My point, however, works the other way around…the likes of him and mitch are being taken for suckers in broad daylight. They’re a buncha tools…but they are included in my best wishes. Virgins talking about sex…their loss.
January 6, 2012 at 12:29 pm
Ernie's Place
Suzy
This is hilarious. Tom Robbins??? You do know that he is not only over 50, but on the downside of the 70’s don’t you? You do know that he dyes his hair and wears sunglasses to hide his bleary eyes and wrinkles, right? He has also made his living selling instruction manuals for the fuzzy thinkers. He is a commercial hack purveying spiritual crap for the misguided. I’d bet that he couldn’t recognize reality if it bit him in the buttocks. You don’t get it, reality is not a “prejudice” it’s a fact.
But, I am glad the you used Robbins to point out a person that I’m nothing like. Thank-you!
January 6, 2012 at 12:32 pm
Eric Kirk
Isn’t he the actor married to Susan Sarandon?
January 6, 2012 at 12:32 pm
Ernie's Place
Anon, my great joy is one day you will be over 50… or not. Either way is fun to contimplate. Reality is a bitch.
January 6, 2012 at 12:45 pm
Anonymous
“You do know that he is not only over 50, but on the downside of the 70’s don’t you? You do know that he dyes his hair and wears sunglasses to hide his bleary eyes and wrinkles, right?”
And what do you do to spruce yourself up, eric? Really, please, share with us your self image and preening habits. It might tell us what you’re really communicating??? PLEASE! I’m completely serious…when somebody takes pot shots at how people look and present themselves, I relish the opportunity to hear said people describe themselves.
“reality is not a “prejudice” it’s a fact” you say, eric. You, however, are very prejudiced. You blog about it daily. Please, as much as I asked you to describe your self image and preening habits, PLEASE disagree with this point by describing how you’re an open minded “saint”, as fair and selfless as a body can be.
In as much, you don’t see the message through the means. The bottom line is as best as somebody has already described it to you, based on the foundation of what you don’t choose to believe…you already believe yourself to be a figment of somebody else’s math. Age has nothing to do with it, time is an illusion.
January 6, 2012 at 12:49 pm
Anonymous
sorry eric, I meant to address ernie’s comment…I type over 80 wpm…means I’m somehow “smart”, so people tell me, especially when they want me to work for them.
January 6, 2012 at 1:41 pm
suzy blah blah
-good points anonymous.
Ernie, haha, not that it’s important but suzy dyes her hair sometimes too. And i like to wear sunglasses myself. More to the point, I dont fault anyone just because they dont fall into your dresscode. Sorry. That aside, although Tom Robbins isnt exactly my favorite author, he has something to say and im sorry that you cant appreciate his wit.. But the reason suzy used his quote is because he had been referred to previously in the thread by Tra, Sadly you seemed to miss that and my point as well. No surprise. If only somehow you could find a way to let go of your tight grasp on what youve been taught is reality, you’d find that the world of non-materiality and non-linear thinking represented in myth and religion, which Robbins often refers to in his writings, has its own laws and its own reality. Instead of concepts and facts we find patterns that are not rational. But choosing to force everything into your own narrow and reasonable framework, while refusing the symbolic approach to these topics, makes you into someone who cannot see the patterns of meaning within them that others of us do. So of course youre going to look at someone like Robbins from that biased view. Mythological events do not happen in history Ernie, they occur in eternal time, always and everywhere.
January 6, 2012 at 1:46 pm
Ernie's Place
“Anon, my great joy is one day you will be over 50… or not.”
Somebody that reads this blog pointed out that my statement sounded threatening. I apologize if it sounded that way. I explained to him that “Anon” is so spiritual that he is sure to be selected for the ascension.
Anon said: “when somebody takes pot shots at how people look and present themselves, I relish the opportunity to hear said people describe themselves.”
Anon go back up and read the crap that you have said about everybody above then come back here and reapply for Sainthood. Good luck.
Sorry about “off topic” Eric. This has been an interesting post.
January 6, 2012 at 1:49 pm
Ernie's Place
Suzy… ….Sigh….
January 6, 2012 at 1:52 pm
suzy blah blah
“everything’s a metaphor”
Goethe
January 6, 2012 at 3:09 pm
suzy blah blah
It’s all in your mind, chumps.
-precisely. But you cant get ppl like them to look there cuz theyve been taught that, “its all in the outward universe”. And with their bias of progressive and scientifically advanced “knowledge”, it is questioned whether the subjective mind even exists. LOL!!! I guess for them subjectivity must be an objective thing. LMAO!
January 6, 2012 at 4:34 pm
Anonymous
“everything’s a metaphor”
That’s the best way I can describe to a third party, my experiences with mushrooms. Everything, and I mean absolutely everything, became a metaphor, unsolicited and not premeditated whatsoever. All my senses making perfect metaphorical sense of my entire physical experience…so much to the point that it became impossible to stop no matter how small or large my focus. I couldn’t stop it even though I desperately wanted to, even though upon a new experience I believed myself prepared, anticipating the experience. Humbling, to say the least, every time. The atoms, the energies, the intentions, the real and the unreal were all there for me to “see”, very matter of factly, and a definite collective acknowledgement of my state. Some “thing(s)”? said hello to me in their own way, the hairless ape who ate the mushroom. Sloshed back into the infinite soup of everything, clinging to “my” identity for dear life. Later experiences, the sensation became as a trip…as though I were about to “leave” for a very very very long time, often as though I would not return to my “sober” senses possibly ever…the idea of perceiving things as we do “normally” would be like forgetting how to ride a bicycle. Both as beautiful, comforting and absolutely horrifying as I literally can imagine anything to be. At first it’s like a cow waking up to the reality of his situation with a human mind, in a slaughterhouse. Then it becomes even more real than that, then it’s up to the individual. “Math”…all these scientific rules that people have written about time and space, are a game in our mind. We have ALL been SO brainwashed since birth, and our parents’ parents before them. It’s pathetic to deny.
“Left/Right” politics….childish nonsense abused in the hands of children who believe they’ve grown up.
January 6, 2012 at 4:44 pm
Unk John
My, my, the anonomista(s) are really getting testy out there, aren’t they? And getting lots of support from Suzy as well. Can somebody explain to me why people who claim a certain knowledge of spirituality must many times attack people who claim a certain amount of knowledge in the realm of science? Suzy has expressed that people on this blog who maintain a belief in the scientific method is a good way to get some materialistic answers must be completely ignorant of the spiritual side of the overall mystery.
And why these attacks on Bolithio, who seems to be reasonably doing what he/she can. All I see is the reference to his/her stand on the freeway through Richardson Grove. Are you aware that there are people out there who believe that the forest will survive that change? Are they all simply to be disregarded as non-spiritual fools or seekers of wealth?
This started out as a thread where ideas could be thrown out there, but it has sadly disintegrated. It’s a shame.
BTW, I apologize for an earlier post that is labeled “Anonymous @ 9:45. It was me.
January 6, 2012 at 5:26 pm
Anonymous
god is in everything.
January 6, 2012 at 5:27 pm
suzy blah blah
Can somebody explain to me why people who claim a certain knowledge of spirituality must many times attack people who claim a certain amount of knowledge in the realm of science?
-and vice verse, your narrow and delusional view forgets the other whole side of the question.
Suzy has expressed that people on this blog who maintain a belief in the scientific method is a good way to get some materialistic answers must be completely ignorant of the spiritual side of the overall mystery>/i>
-without examples Unk, your just blowing smelly air.
-Anonymous, Eric will never admit he’s wrong. Even when you show undeniable physical evidence to refute his “facts”, like Suzy has occasionally, Or show up some of his hypocritical and self-serving maneuverings, as NAN does nearly on a weekly basis, he always denys it. He’s always right. And hes a spoiled brat about it. If someone shows an argument that poses the opposing view he only goes so far as the point when you prove him wrong. Then resorts to my daddy can beat up your daddy strategies, or snide childish comments like, duh, uh huh, sigh, etc. Or like Unk, builds a strawman to perpetuate the illusion of superiority.
January 6, 2012 at 5:39 pm
Pi Ying
FYI:
Tom Robbins, the fiction novelist is not Tony Robbins, the self help manual guy Ernie is referring to.
January 6, 2012 at 6:16 pm
Eric Kirk
I think there’s sometimes an element of jealousy among people who don’t get science, although it’s really not that hard to get. You just have to work at it a little. Spirituality doesn’t really take work. You just have to read a book and sing a song, and you’re satisfied. And hey, that’s fine. But others of us find beauty in learning about the way things actually work, and we’re willing to work a little for it.
Every hear the story of the grasshopper and the ants?
January 6, 2012 at 6:18 pm
Eric Kirk
Anonymous
“You do know that he is not only over 50, but on the downside of the 70’s don’t you? You do know that he dyes his hair and wears sunglasses to hide his bleary eyes and wrinkles, right?”
And what do you do to spruce yourself up, eric? Really, please, share with us your self image and preening habits. It might tell us what you’re really communicating??? PLEASE! I’m completely serious…when somebody takes pot shots at how people look and present themselves, I relish the opportunity to hear said people describe themselves.
Not that it matters, but you might want to go back and read the posts. I didn’t say anything about Tim or Tom or whatever Robbins. That’s somebody else’s quote in your post. But carry on.
January 6, 2012 at 7:10 pm
Ernie's Place
Dear Pi Ying
Sorry to drop facts in your lap, but this is the Tom Robbins that everybody but you are referring to.
Tom Robins
January 6, 2012 at 7:14 pm
Ernie's Place
Eric
Don’t worry, they are all “one”. Facts don’t count.
January 6, 2012 at 7:58 pm
Anonymous
“Not that it matters, but you might want to go back and read the posts.”
Not that it matters, but I corrected myself. However, thanks for letting me know you’re not paying attention, instead trolling us on with more bait like “spirituality doesn’t really take work”. It’s a good thing you only pay attention to worthwhile information, eric. Otherwise your head would be full of useless, impractical knowledge like mere theory. Your imagination of what it’s like to be hundreds of millions of light years away in black holes and such, is so much more accurate than mine. Good job, eric…you believe beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you know your math.
This anonymous is signing off…no more from me here.
January 6, 2012 at 11:59 pm
Eric Kirk
Oh, I see that you did correct yourself anonymous. Sorry about that. It does help to give yourself a name, because I suspect that about eight people have posted as “anonymous” in this thread alone.
And sorry about the “spirituality doesn’t take work” post too. I posted it because I was annoyed. Don’t drink and drive. Don’t post when you’re pissed. Two good rules of thumb.
January 7, 2012 at 12:14 am
Unk John
Seriously, Suzy? You ask for examples of you implying that a claim to some amount of knowledge in the realm of science is accompanied by a complete lack of questioning in the spiritual realm no more than 5 lines after you wrote, “-and vice verse, your narrow and delusional view forgets the other whole side of the question.”
Is it reasonable for me to think that this statement means that my view is narrow, delusional, and that I don’t even consider the spiritual side of my or your existence? What is there in anything I have said that should make you believe that I am incapable of thinking in spiritual terms?
I don’t worship science or math, I simply celebrate them. I am more than happy to make use of the wonders they bring to us, as apparently all of us are. I am also quite at home contemplating my navel as well. I mean that.
Forgive my offensive tone, if you will, but I object to your apparent belief that your spirituality can beat up my spirituality.
January 7, 2012 at 12:33 am
Eric Kirk
There are more than a few straw men in this thread.
January 7, 2012 at 9:56 am
Anonymous
“straw men”
Popular buzzword used to death by blog addicts without an original idea in their combined heads.
January 7, 2012 at 10:54 am
Eric Kirk
I suspect that you run into the word often in your discussions with people, so maybe it’s a touchy subject.
Seriously, how do you manage be so angry on a nice Saturday morning like this? It must take up an enormous amount of energy. I almost have to admire your stamina.
January 7, 2012 at 11:30 am
Anonymous
what makes you think I’m angry, eric? I think you’re stewpeed, that’s all. And I get a kick out of saying it on your blog, with all its pretentious social graces. You’re a predictable blogbrain. Keep paying attention to the right and left and think you’re figuring it all out. What I’m doing is paying attention to something entirely different. Get back to work!
January 7, 2012 at 11:47 am
suzy blah blah
-when i read your post this morning, Eric, my 1st reaction was to go into a rant about semantics, co-optry, charlatanism, etc. But then i realized that you’d already found the perfect illustration to describe you and your faithful blogreaders –ants LOL!
Sooooo, why bother delineating the undefinable when to you its just a spider web? Anyway Suzy’s gonna bounce, er i mean hop, outa here now … i’ll have to leave you busy busy hard working investigators to sort it out in space and count it up in time yourselves. Check you next month when i get back from southern Mexico.
Erasmus –i heard that they discovered that upper Michigan isnt really a black hole –they think it may be heaven. Sounds true.
Tra — feed the fish and take care of the aquarium while Suzy’s gone.
Bolithio –suzy kidding? Not a chance.
Mitch –for some people life is a Mitch –but hey thats a good thing.
Unk John –you win the battle of the strawmen –suzy totally cries uncle
Ernie –whether you pray or not, i promise you, i pretty pretty promise you, Suzy will bring back a moon rock.
Anonymous –keep keepin on. lotta good comments, electric pyramid, 3 door game show, punching bag, virgins! btw, i think you may be someone Suzy met afore … LOL! –cant remember where. Maybe on a beach in the south of France??? No, i got it, we were alone together in outer space. Perfectly encircled by giant virus ant clones
Fortunately, some one had the foresight to have given us a shot of free will.
gotta run
January 7, 2012 at 3:16 pm
Eric Kirk
what makes you think I’m angry, eric? I think you’re stewpeed, that’s all. And I get a kick out of saying it on your blog, with all its pretentious social graces. You’re a predictable blogbrain.
That is just so rich with irony, I have to believe it’s satire. Because nobody with any grip on reality could have typed that with a straight face!
January 7, 2012 at 3:18 pm
Anonymous
Thanks suzy, we definitely acknowlledge a connection that for whatever reason people like mitch and eric, at this point in their lives I believe choose to ignore. It’s come to pass, the time of their mathematical circumstances regarding their spirituality in this very basic way. Or not, if they don’t then they don’t, it’s not even for me to say according to my own standards. But when acknowledged, these trains of thought open doors for so much exploration of ourselves and others that we’ve been brainwashed clean of otherwise.
The bottom line is, and as I said before, I’ve had this conversation at much longer lenght with many people, that eric absolutely cannot say people have even been in “outerspace” but what he’s been told. Maybe he’s seen some rocket shoot way up into the sky, maybe he’s seen “videos”, maybe he’s talked with people who say they’ve been there. He would be ignorant to deny the blind acceptance he has for the words of the mortal gods of his math and science, and that the whole foundation of his understanding of life beyond our atmosphere has been put in his head by others, no experience necessary. He talks about space and the “rules” of the universe like the voice of a god. As you’ve said, it gets very boring being around these types of people after awhile.
January 7, 2012 at 3:22 pm
Anonymous
…and to make it even funnier (and more pathetic), eric and others always fill in the blank that we “spiritualists” or whatever they wan to call us, must be in complete denial of the mechanics of space etc. altogether, to simply present him wiht the fact of his own wilfull acceptance of disbelief in such matters. He hasn’t even at this point in the thread acknowledged it. What a bore, no cooperative conversation unfolding.
January 7, 2012 at 7:19 pm
Eric Kirk
Okay, I was going back over the thread, and somehow I missed this gem from NAN.
Rather than playing Eric’s BS game of avoiding web references, here’s an accessible web reference that shows how bogus Eric thinking is. But he’s a legend in his own mind.
Mind you, the topic is black holes and the applicable quantum physics, a very complicated topic for which I referred readers to Isaac Asimov’s seminal book, probably the best in translating difficult concepts to the lay person – something Asimov was famous for.
But apparently Wikipedia (no joke, go back and take the link!) is a superior source!
I think I’m just about done with this thread. Carry on.
January 8, 2012 at 11:07 am
Ernie's Place
“I think I’m just about done with this thread”
Me too, but in closing, I want to quote one of my favorite great thinkers.
“It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.”—Albert Einstein.
January 8, 2012 at 11:46 am
Anonymous
“Mind you, the topic is black holes and the applicable quantum physics, a very complicated topic”
Not complicated at all. You, eric, read the books and simnply believe what you read. Your whole foundation of knowledge on the subject is what’s been told to you, with no effort on your part whatsoever. As many pretty pictures, complex charts and number sets as you want. Duh.
January 8, 2012 at 12:32 pm
Erasmus
A “personal” God is,of course, not the only sort of God imaginable, and it is quite clear, after a reading of Max Jammer’s ‘Einsteinf and Religion,’ that Einstein had a deep faith in the kind of impersonal deity worshipped by (among others) Spinoza. — On page 79 of his book, Jammer quotes (and translates) a poem by Goethe and says that Einstein would probably have agreed with it: “He who possesses science and art/possesses religion as well;/He who possesses neither of these/had better have religion.” —– I suppose that each of us feels that we are so well-versed in science and art that religion is, at best, an afterthought. We may be wrong.
January 8, 2012 at 1:03 pm
Mitch
Erasmus,
I think you’ve left the perfect final comment. Sorry to ruin its perfection by posting this agreement.
January 8, 2012 at 4:13 pm
Eric Kirk
Thanks Ernie. I’ve another one.
“You cannot very well reason with someone whose basic line of argument is that reason doesn’t count.”
-Isaac Asimov
He was referring to the evolution/creationism debate, but I think it applies here.
January 8, 2012 at 6:45 pm
Bolithio
Erasmus, I love that poem. Thanks!
January 9, 2012 at 9:59 am
Anonymous
I’ve got another poem…
“This poem by some famous person can be applied to any argument by anybody with the intelligence of a toadstool, but I’m going to use it to express what I cannot, as though it has been written just for me right now.”
January 11, 2012 at 9:01 am
Jesus Wood
Do you really feel that Syria spying on dissidents?
January 11, 2012 at 1:59 pm
Not A Native
Suzy, check out this hilarious blog exchange.
As yo’ve noted, Eric is a child, resentful and bitter when his outpouring are recognized and criticized as just plain wrong. But in this one he’s gone crying for support and when rebuffed again, just pretends here like nothing happened.
Over on the H. blog Eric whined for attention and sympathy, playing the abused victim:
Eric Kirk says:
January 7, 2012 at 7:13 pm
Hey, PJ, I already got criticized in another thread because I referenced a book instead of an online link. And then the person countered…. with Wikipedia!
But instead of sympathy he got more truth, something a brat can’t tolerate:
Plain Jane says:
January 8, 2012 at 6:53 am
Eric, I think when debating on the internet (as opposed to in a classroom with reference books available) internet links are superior. It’s hard to maintain a discussion when the “facts” offered are in book form. Wikipedia is a great place to start research with their sources cited (and linked) but due to its “editing” policies, not trustworthy itself.
So now Eric has another problem and whines again, hoping to salvage some ego boosting credibility:
Eric Kirk says:
January 9, 2012 at 11:38 am
Perhaps that makes sense on a certain level, but there’s an old adage for most magazines that the articles should only be as long as it would take the average reader to complete while sitting on the toilet. Likewise, I wonder what happens to the depth of the discussion when it’s limited to links which do not detract too much from the time it takes to be posting.
Information is not knowledge…
But again, Eric gets no support and is further spanked:
Plain Jane says:
January 9, 2012 at 12:18 pm
Lack of information isn’t knowledge either. There’s nothing wrong with quoting from books or using them as a source for your points, but when people can’t verify your interpretation they can only trust or distrust your opinions based on other criteria.
At long last, after being exposed as a spoiled child who uses deceptive methods to get his personal views accepted without question, Eric gives up and makes a lame “what happened to the good ole’ days?”, the hallmark argument of a conservative viewpoint which is what Eric truly represents.
Eric Kirk says:
January 9, 2012 at 4:06 pm
What ever did we do before the Internet????
January 11, 2012 at 4:14 pm
Eric Kirk
I wasn’t aware that the Internet is inherently left wing. In any case, I don’t spend enough time on the Internet to read about complex physics. I’ll stick with the books for anything requiring serious knowledge transfer, thought, and reflection. Hell, it’s not like you sent me to a pdf of an article from Cosmology or anything. You referred me to Wikipedia and implied it was a source superior to Asimov when it comes to information about black holes and quantum-gravitational phenomena. Call me a Luddite, but I crack up each time I reread the posts. It’s the kind of “gotcha” debate which so often takes place on the Internet where it’s clear that you didn’t even understand the Wikipedia article (as there was nothing which even specifically addressed the point in question), but instead provides words you can mine in order to look like you may know what you’re talking about, since the majority of the readers don’t have the knowledge to contradict your links and cut/paste jobs.
The “old” saying that the Internet provides knowledge a mile wide and an inch deep is pretty much applicable here, and to the extent that you (I hope PJ has a little more depth) have given up books for what you can pull out of Wikipedia, I say more power to you. In the old days you were limited to Readers Digest condensed books and Cliff Notes. Now you’ve got a whole world full of shallow clutter to cut and paste and proclaim yourself the winner of a debate you didn’t even comprehend.
January 11, 2012 at 5:19 pm
edsvoice
Eric, the internet is what ever you make of it, left, right or center, you choose the topic, just like you would choose a book, newspaper or porn.
You yourself have quoted Wikipedia and provided links to make your point on this very blog.
“In the old days you were limited to Readers Digest condensed books and Cliff Notes” and why did you use “Cliff Notes”? The same way people use the internet now!
In the old days? How long ago do you think the internet or world wide web got started, or better yet, got popular and people had PC’s and connections to even use it? Yeah, the “old days” 1993 or 1995, way back then, when I was in my late 30′s. Remember the DOT.COM bubble? Yeah, back in the “old days”. You were born before cel phones, right?
Its not “What ever did we do before the Internet????”, its what we choose to do with it now!
What ever did we do before electricity? What ever did we do before the wheel? What ever did we do before fire! What ever did we do before the Community park? The list goes on Eric, man-up and deal with it……
January 11, 2012 at 5:57 pm
Bolithio
I dont get peoples spiteful behavior on blogs. I mean I sort of understand; the internet a provides a medium to be a dick with no consequence. If worst comes to worst, you delete your identity and start over. But to actually do that relentlessly, finding satisfaction in being mean, is something I will never understand. I mean, who takes the time to gather up posts from a blog and re-post them randomly on another blog in a totally unrelated thread? Flame on NAN! lol
January 11, 2012 at 8:17 pm
Unk John
“At long last, after being exposed as a spoiled child who uses deceptive methods to get his personal views accepted without question, Eric gives up and makes a lame “what happened to the good ole’ days?”, the hallmark argument of a conservative viewpoint which is what Eric truly represents.”
Eric Kirk, a CONSERVATIVE?! Holy Christ, wait’ll I tell his mother!
January 11, 2012 at 9:54 pm
Not A Native
Bolithio, Just go cut down some more trees and you’ll feel better, like you always do. Of course, you don’t do it like they did in the ‘bad old days’ because you’re modern and know how do do things correctly, which is exactly what they in the ‘bad old days” said too. In fact everybody who cut trees always did it in the best way, nobody did wrong(except some faraway evil financeer who everybody here can blame all the bad stuff on).
Like Eric, your weakness Bolithio is that you’re often wron, but your virtues are that you both are never in doubt.
January 12, 2012 at 7:28 am
Mitch
Spiritually and mathematically, I feel confident that stubborn socialists and obsessive conservatives can agree about this recent story by Kym Kemp about a So.Hum. kidney donation, and can go here to contribute: http://apps.facebook.com/fundrazr/activity/b74191357d694e65b2a1af1141eca7c7
http://lostcoastoutpost.com/2012/jan/10/its-miracle-their-kidneys-matched/
Once you’ve contributed, feel free to carry on bashing one another.
January 12, 2012 at 8:12 am
Plain Jane
Jumping into this late, but the book that Suzy recommended “Lives of a Cell” and the question of whether animals use math reminded me of Thomas’ essay on termites. When a critical number of termites is present they will divide into 2 teams and build twin columns which meet perfectly at the apex of the arch. Do they use math or somehow transcend it?
I took the “Arguing the World” test and agree that some of the questions didn’t have the right answer for me. My score was 50% liberal, 41.7% socialist and 8.3% conservative.
January 12, 2012 at 9:34 am
Plain Jane
“Agriculture for instance, widely believed to be discovered only by humans, is now known to also have been discovered by ants”
They were practicing animal husbandry (“domesticating” aphids) millions of years before we even existed, Bolithio.
January 12, 2012 at 9:44 am
Anonymous
Bolithio says: I dont get peoples spiteful behavior on blogs.
What a crock of bull. You really are a POS. You insult the integrity of just about every “environmentalist” activity at every opportunity. Every fuggin one. You are a bold faced liar.
January 12, 2012 at 9:48 am
Anonymous
Re: 1:59 When somebody starts telling people to refer to links, all hope is lost in having a really meaningful conversation with said somebody. One of the points of discussion I appreciate is unfolding one’s own understanding of the subject, and their very own dialog thereof. Eric fails miserable, he’s a typical knowitall.
January 12, 2012 at 10:31 am
Eric Kirk
Jumping into this late, but the book that Suzy recommended “Lives of a Cell”
Is it available by link? It’s not relevant if it’s not linkable.
January 12, 2012 at 11:09 am
Mitch
Here.
http://www.gyanpedia.in/Portals/0/Toys%20from%20Trash/Resources/books/cell.pdf
The essays originally appeared in the New England Journal of Medicine, and the book’s copyright is 1974, so I don’t know if the PDF above is legal.
In any event, the book is well worth buying.
January 12, 2012 at 11:20 am
Bolithio
Do they use math or somehow transcend it?
Thats it right there. Are you breathing or using your lungs? The point is that something is going on, and we call it math, or breathing. That should not threaten anyone’s spirituality.
BTW, thanks for sharing about the termites. Like the ants, its absolutely amazing how these phenomenons occur all throughout nature.
January 12, 2012 at 11:26 am
Bolithio
Anonymous says: You insult the integrity of just about every “environmentalist” activity at every opportunity.
I say, actually I question many environmentalist activities. In the case of EPIC, I absolutely question their integrity. As someone who loves debate, I cant help but question things. Yet I still wait on a lonely island for anyone from the so-called environmentalist community to provide any substance to online discussions. All I get is yelled at, accused of being this or that, and falsely characterized. And you wonder why I question the integrity of environmentalist activity!!! LOL
January 12, 2012 at 11:50 am
Plain Jane
LOL Eric! I didn’t know any of the details of that spat until I read the start of it here this morning and skipped over it due to lack of interest.
If you haven’t read “Lives of Cells” you might enjoy it; but I’m sure I can find something online about termite engineers and ant farmers to support my claim if you haven’t and don’t trust my interpretation…. maybe Wikipedia.
January 12, 2012 at 1:00 pm
Anonymous
Bolithio says: “I say, actually I question many environmentalist activities.”
Nope, at every opportunity you inject unsolicited defamations into “conversation”.
January 12, 2012 at 1:03 pm
Anonymous
A link eric might want to google (a corporation’s name is an “official” word!!!!) is the age old alegory of the cave, and how he chooses to live in one. Knowitalls are unique in that they never have to mature beyond the playground.
January 12, 2012 at 1:06 pm
Anonymous
Bolithio says: “BTW, thanks for sharing about the termites. Like the ants, its absolutely amazing how these phenomenons occur all throughout nature.”
…as if he actually gives a tiny little shred of sh–. This whole thing is riduclous beyond reason.
January 12, 2012 at 2:50 pm
Not A Native
Too bad for you Kirk, your stupid point again fell flat. But that won’t deter you from prattling on and whining about it. Someone, somewhere, might yet agree with you, thats what you’re really after.
My current hypothesis is that you do this blog(and radio spot) only to gain a rep as being knowledgeable and worldly. Thereby gaining credibility with potential clients for your law practice. For that strategy to work, you need to keep an image of competance. But thats a real challenge because you really aren’t that competant, especially in evaluating your own limits of understanding.
January 12, 2012 at 2:58 pm
grouchy
Not sure what you guys are talking about now, since I only sporadically follow this, but I just took the test and found out I am 50% Socialist! Alllll rrrrrigggghhhttt…. my father, a Republican isolationist semi-libertarian, once introduced me (I was a fully functioning adult at the time): “This is my offspring, Grouchy — Grouchy is a Socialist!” I always believed, sadly, that I was only a liberal. Everyone hates liberals, they’re so wishy-washy. I am so happy to find out my dad was half-right.
January 12, 2012 at 4:55 pm
Mitch
NaN,
That’s competence, not competance. And competent, not competant.
Just saying.
January 12, 2012 at 6:00 pm
Eric Kirk
NAN – that was really boring. It’s 15 seconds of my life I’ll never get back again.
January 12, 2012 at 9:42 pm
Anonymous
I am in love. I have never met Loreen Eliason, but after tonight’s news, I am in love. I just may have to go the RiverWood and introduce myself to that incredible woman.
January 13, 2012 at 1:53 pm
Not A Native
Is spell checking the greatest ‘added value’ you can bring to the thread, Mitch? If so, you should know that spell checking software is free. Thats a fair measure of its worth, IMO.
Have you spell checked all the other posts in this thread and will make a report? That’ll certainly create your actual ‘value added’, bird cage lining material for the rest of us,
January 14, 2012 at 3:44 pm
Eric Kirk
A quick note on the legacy of one of the subjects of the original topic of the thread. Irving Kristol’s son defending, with historical evidence, the act of warrior pissing. Such the legacy of intellectual depth!
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/01/14/1054621/-William-Full-Of-Piss-Kristol?via=siderec
January 14, 2012 at 9:03 pm
Anonymess
So what I did since my last post is go straight to CIA headquarters and demand some farging answers to some deep questions, and stood my ground until I was satisfied. So they told me in fact that all your math stuff is baloney, eric and mitch and whoever. Too bad for you, but that’s how it goes, you are and have been wrong and I am and have been right this whole time.The governments of the world have been following an ancient japanese word riddle that translates into symbols that can form infinite “sensible” thought/pattern communications…it has to do with color harmonics and dividing your “chakras” to harness more “chi”, as the hippier crowd refers to basic intergalactic time travel. None of you know anybody in the japanese government to begin with. The theory of black holes is a fake as well, NASA has no clue what the hell is in outer space. They shoot lazers at stuff and pretend to categorize feedback, but it’s all a dog and pony show. It’s like a wizard of oz video game, the whole science/technology industry. No one person can grasp any single facet of the mathematical biology of the universe enough to make as much as a speak n’ spell with a mountain of raw natural resources at their disposal. People have teamed up and combined their games, so they can lie to you about slingshotting radios around the rings of saturn. They photoshop all kinds of shit, over three quarters of their pictoral inventory are digital manifestations. They invented the word computer, they have photoshop version ten to the twelfth squared at their disposal, on micronuclear powered projector wristwatches. It’s all a big lie, they pour a gallon of LSD in our tapwater every month, everybody’s on a nice buzz absorbing processed brain cheese.
January 15, 2012 at 11:12 am
Mitch
Mr. or Ms. Mess,
When you’re right, you’re right.
January 15, 2012 at 12:41 pm
Anonymess
haha, mitch. I know you understand the gist of what I’m saying. Truth is, it could be true to a very large extent. When somebody starts talking about black holes as proof of this that or another, I can’t help but laugh and wonder if they’re being serious. Outerspace? To deny one’s own specific physical situation within the eb and flow of global information…information that one also chooses to revere as a holy grail of sorts…is completely ridiculous. Eric doesn’t know jack or squat about black holes…was he being serious??? Is talking about perfect circles in space for real? The second dimension is table talk, but universal consciousness is too far out there??? Is it any surprise people who perpetuate polar politics, look at society and economy like compartmentalized systems, are often people who adhere to these human made yet superhuman laws of math and science? Void of their own cognitive recognition of where they get their information and what anybody…specifically they are doing with that specific information? I didn’t know until this week that eric is both a parent and holds a relative lofty career position. No wonder he’s such a hardass. Do folks recognize their own demographic? As in, how we judge others, so are we capable of judging ourselves. It’s the very least of our supernatural abilities.
January 16, 2012 at 11:30 am
Mitch
My feeling, Anonymess, is that anyone who tries arguing with the Culinary Institute of America is either very brave, very foolish, or both.
As the Buddha once said, “those fuckers carry guns you guys don’t even know exist.”