So my son Asher and I were watching a movie the other night in which one character’s use of the word “nigger” resulted in a brawl. Asher looked at me in confusion and asked, “what does ‘nigger’ mean?” Seriously, I can’t count how many times I heard the word by the time I was ten years old, off screen as well as on. It’s not easy explaining what it “means.”
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November 26, 2011 at 8:50 pm
Joe Blow
Sounds like somebody lives in a glass bubble. Since when is “nigger” an “it”?
November 27, 2011 at 1:40 am
Eric Kirk
Gosh Joe. I so feel guilty for not exposing my kids to more racists!
And “nigger” is an it when it is described as a word in an object phrase of the sentence predicate. I think my ten year old son does understand that.
November 27, 2011 at 8:17 am
Fred Mangels
Does your son know what a “negro” is? Seriously. I was told by someone a while back that negro is a racist term.
November 27, 2011 at 8:36 am
Erasmus
Martin Luther King, Jr. used a racist term? — The word “Negro” did not offend him === on the contrary!
November 27, 2011 at 8:41 am
Plain Jane
I was about 5 or 6 the first time I heard the word when my older sister’s best friend was called that by some “big” boys at the park. Neither my sister’s friend (who was crying) nor my sister (who was enraged) would tell me what it meant and my mother was so aghast that I felt ashamed for asking. While I’ve obviously overcome my parental prohibitions against cursing, that is an obscenity that sickens me.
November 27, 2011 at 9:58 am
Anonymous
I was stationed in Tenn., in 1961. Traveled all over the south visiting family. Never saw the word negro, nigger, or black. Everyone one who wasn’t white was referred to as colored. Both in verbal communication and sign. For a California boy, this was unbelievable. My best buddy, a Hawaiian, had to ride in the back of the bus. I sat with him. The credo of public transportation was:”If your white, you’re alright, If you’re black, in the back.” All blacks were not referred to as niggers, only the very worst were referred to with that epithet. The word Nigger was not used in polite society. When white guys left the base, we couldn’t wait to get in to civilian clothes. When black guys left the base, they made certain they were wearing their uniforms, so they could receive a fragment of the respect they deserved.
The most astonishing thing for me, was to be living the incredible racial separation of the south, and then return to L.A. for the summer of love, and the year Equal Rights passed. Quite a change.
Eric, give your son an early copy of the Scrabble players dictionary. It has words in it I didn’t think could be in print.
November 27, 2011 at 10:56 am
Mitch
I’ve been reading The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. He points out the same change, except he uses as his examples many casual comments from “liberal” literature of the past 200 years, showing how the bounds of acceptable discourse have changed. He then projects into the future and wonders how people 50 or 100 years from now might think of our present-day language and attitudes regarding animals.
He also points out that this type of “progress” is more like an upward-moving sawtooth, and that there are always places and times where you’re going backwards even when there’s general movement forwards. He cites the last decade in the US as a good example of backward movement.
It’s great that cruel language based on race is considered less acceptable in polite society now than thirty years ago. It would be even better if the economic system and social fabric hadn’t been warped, perhaps beyond repair, over the past thirty or forty years.
I’m glad the n-word is no longer acceptable in polite company, but I’ll be more glad when the percentage of young black men in prison for economic crimes like dealing drugs goes down, and the percentage of young white crooks in prison for economic crimes like stealing from widows and orphans goes up.
The God Delusion is a fantastic book, by the way.
Fred, “colored people” is not a racist term when used in describing the NAACP. But I can think of many contexts in which choosing that phrase rather than another is basically intended as a slam. So can you.
Same thing with Negro. But you already know that.
November 27, 2011 at 10:58 am
Mitch
Oh, yeah. I lost a Japanese friend in high school because I did not know that “Chink” was not a respectable synonym for Chinese. I don’t think my father ever referred to a Chinese restaurant as anything other than “wanna go to the Chink’s?” and it never occurred to me he was using an n-word.
November 27, 2011 at 11:05 am
Kym Kemp
I’ve noticed most of our kids here in Humboldt are free of race terms but sexual charged terms are rampant. Gay and faggot made me crazy when I worked at Redway and Weott Schools getting my teaching degree. And my 9 year old recently brought one of terms home! I had to re explain how several people he loved could be labeled and hurt by those terms.
November 27, 2011 at 11:41 am
Erasmus
I’m glad you’re reading Dawkins,Mitch — though I don’t always agree with him, I admire his eloquence and courage. In a Sept. 19, 2011 interview published in the NY Times, Dawkins is quoted as saying that it is “highly plausible” that “God-like creatures” exist somewhere in the universe. He then qualifies that (to me, rather bizarre) statement by saying that these creatures would be different from a traditional notion of what “God” is, inasmuch as they would not be everlasting and they would be products of natural selection. (One could say that Dawkins worships natural selection, but that would be unfair, although tempting.)
November 27, 2011 at 11:49 am
Mitch
Erasmus,
Yes, Dawkins has no objection whatsoever to the idea that there are superhuman creatures “out there.” He just insists that the only satisfactory explanation we have to their arising is natural selection operating to drive evolution. He views the explanatory value of “God did it” as less than zero, since it would be harder to explain what created a God than to explain what created us.
If I can try to summarize Dawkins’ objection to religion in practice, it is that religion states (1) this particular book answers questions such as “how did the universe come to be” and “how should I behave,” and (2) no evidence you might be presented with changes the truth of (1), and (3) the more you accept (2), the better person you are.
November 27, 2011 at 11:51 am
Joel Mielke
“Negro” is an offensive term when ignorant people like Fred use it.
November 27, 2011 at 12:01 pm
Joe Blow
There are all kinds of bigotry, prejudice and racists out there motivated by a full compliment of hate, Eric. Only the Lord knows how much of that crap I was subjected to when I was ten years old. I learned to deal with “it” or “it” dealt with me. By the way, I wasn’t talking about your son living in a glass bubble. I was speaking to you.
That was my point. You’re really talking about people and the serious consequences of stereotypical judging, NOT some grammatical inanimate object. Rather hard for you to teach your kids anything relevant to real life if you can’t figure that out.
November 27, 2011 at 12:21 pm
tra
Both “colored” and “negro” were acceptable terms in the past and it was in that context that the word “colored” came to be part of the NAACP’s name and in that context that MLK Jr would have had no problem with the word “negro.” But again, it’s been several decades now since either of those terms was embraced by the people those terms were used to label. That’s the key — whether you’re calling people what they want to be called. It’s an issue of basic respect.
“Negro” and “colored” have been supplanted by “black” and “African-American.” Most people made the switch decades ago. And everyone knows that. So anyone who uses the terms “colored” or “negro” today is intentionally reaching back decades and dragging out a term that was applied during an era when African-Americans and other minorities had fewer rights. It’s an act of basic disrespect, the intention being the same as actually using the word “nigger,” just not quite as incendiary.
November 27, 2011 at 12:29 pm
Erasmus
(This could turn into a separate thread, but of course it can be easily skipped over.) Partial agreement with Dawkins’s point of view. I don’t find “natural selection” nearly as explanatory as he does, and I was heartened to learn recently that T.H. Huxley (Darwin’s “bulldog”) didn’t either. (He refused to believe that natural selection could account for the transmutation of one species into another (morphologically — we’re not talking about the incessant transformation of bacteria) until artificial selection could demonstrate it. We’re still waiting.—- Dawkins, on the contrary, has swallowed Darwinism whole hog, and he has rejected what religious scholars consider to be a caricature of religion. (See Karen Armstrong’s “The Case for God,” p. xvi). Thomas Merton (whose letters I’ve been reading) did not think of God as a “Being,” and Armstrong’s book agrees with Merton. Unless one wishes to feel superior to religious believers by treating fundamentalism as the core of religion, it behooves a thoughtful person to become aware of what intelligent believers are thinking these days. Armstrong’s book is a good place to start.
November 27, 2011 at 12:32 pm
Eric Kirk
Okay, I was tired. It doesn’t really matter whether the word is in the subject or predicate. It only matters whether you are talking about a word or a person.
Anyway…
November 27, 2011 at 12:34 pm
Eric Kirk
Does your son know what a “negro” is? Seriously. I was told by someone a while back that negro is a racist term.
I don’t know. The term fell out of vogue in the mid-seventies when Afro-American became the term of choice, later to be replaced with African American. It’s not a racist term, but it’s considered disrespectful at this point.
And yet, the United Negro College Fund has never changed its name, nor the NAACP.
November 27, 2011 at 12:40 pm
Eric Kirk
I’ve noticed most of our kids here in Humboldt are free of race terms but sexual charged terms are rampant. Gay and faggot made me crazy when I worked at Redway and Weott Schools getting my teaching degree. And my 9 year old recently brought one of terms home! I had to re explain how several people he loved could be labeled and hurt by those terms.
Yes, my kids have been exposed to those terms, and the Buju Banton episode convinced me that in Sohum homophobia may be the last acceptable form of bigotry – not so much that we have a large number of homophobes, but simply that the progressive community here has carved out an exception for Reggae. And unfortunately, those attitudes have impacts on children.
Asher did run into a minor incident involving another student who made some comment about Asher’s Asian features. The kid got a long talking too, and my son was content to accept the apology and move on, although I don’t think the friendship has been quite the same ever since.
And my daughter one time got angry with her brother and yelled, “you stupid hippie!” Obviously she got that from somewhere.
So I’m not suggesting that Sohum is a Utopia. But obviously we’ve made some progress.
November 27, 2011 at 12:43 pm
Eric Kirk
Oh and Fred, it’s really simple. If you want to know how to refer to a group of people, just ask some of them how they feel about it and go with their preference. It’s not rocket science.
It’s not always easy however. Many Hispanics prefer the term “Latino,” but for some reason, as I learned in college, Hispanics from the islands such as Cuba or the Dominican Republic prefer Hispanic. Are the islands technically part of Latin America?
November 27, 2011 at 12:53 pm
Joel Mielke
Erik, I’m glad that your son was unfamiliar with the word. Congratulations!
I was reading Tom Sawyer to my niece a few years back, when she was about eight, and had forgotten that we would encounter this problematic word. I was relieved that she didn’t stop me for an explanation.
“Nigger” is, arguably, the most complex word in American English, both for it’s ugly history and its current jocular and, alternately, abusive usage amongst African Americans.
“Negro” can be offensive. It requires a thorough grasp of usage by non-African-Americans (and should, thus, be avoided), though it is still commonly used by older African-Americans, both innocuously and derisively.
November 27, 2011 at 1:22 pm
Eric Kirk
Thing is, he has listened to hip hop, and he must have heard the word. But it probably didn’t have context to generate thought about it, as in the Telly Savalas/Jim Brown brawl he witnessed in the Dirty Dozen.
He’s seen few movies about slavery, but I guess either it wasn’t used or it didn’t register.
But anyway, I just remember hearing it all the time at school as a kid, as well as other things.
November 27, 2011 at 1:30 pm
Mitch
Erasmus,
(If you wanted to take this off the blog I’m mjtrac at the email service gmail.com.)
I’ve read several of Armstrong’s books, but not The Case For God.
In Dawkin’s Delusion, he devotes a lot of the beginning to explaining why his argument is not just with fundamentalists. He recognizes that many believers are more sophisticated, but he believes the sophisticated believers are providing space for the fundamentalists. He also thinks there are a lot more unsophisticated believers than sophisticated, and polls tend to bear him out. I think (but can’t firmly recall) he tries to narrow his target from “religion” to the idea of faith as opposed to openness-to-persuasion-in-the-face-of-evidence.
He believes in “Einstein’s God” himself, if I recall correctly, but he views such beliefs as irrelevant to the discussion of faith against evidence.
November 27, 2011 at 7:25 pm
Anonymous
You can change the language as dramatically as you want, kids will always find identical ways to do the same thing. Empowering words like nigger and faggot by making them strictly taboo accomplishes nothing. In fact it makes it that much easier to manipulate people with merely those words. “Hell” used to be a “bad word”. It’s the nature of language, not the specifics of it, that matters. We’re animals.
Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me. Truer words are seldom spoken.
November 27, 2011 at 8:03 pm
Eric Kirk
Anonymous 7:25 – I used to make that same argument, but after numerous conversations with people of color on their feelings on the subject, I came to conclude that there is in fact power in those words which have an impact which is hard for people outside of the particular group to understand. Unless it is a word which targets me specifically, in which case we will see if I can be so easily tolerant, I endeavor to give the targeted groups the benefit of the doubt as to how they should feel about verbal attacks on them due to the color of their skin or other attributes. Blaming the victim for how he or she feels about it as “empowering” the words just doesn’t seem to be productive, and sticks and stones are less likely to lead to war than words.
November 27, 2011 at 8:20 pm
Ernie's Place
I have many friends from a variety of ethnic backgrounds. All people should have equal opportunity. I am most proud of my friends that embrace who they are. I have been told many times by my Indian friends that they prefer to be “Indian” rather than “Native American”. In formal reference they prefer “Indigenous Person”. I am also sure that opinion might change from person to person, or by area. I have found that it is more important to value your friendships with people than calling them by a proper label.
I don’t think that I have even found the need for a label in referring to my Black(?) friends. I have talked to them about their history, and some that were from the south, have horrific history. Anything in California is tame by comparison.
One of my Mexican friends calls me “Senior Blanco”. He seems to get great joy over the fact that I get the humor. My “Mexican” humor is moderated by the fact that he probably hears too much of it already. But, I’m sure that he would take it well.
I hope that Eric is raising his children to be proud of who they are, and allowing them to discover as much as they can about their native culture. There is much value in knowing who you are and where you are from. I am often shocked by people that don’t know their family history beyond their immediate family. Following family history can be a very rich and rewarding trip.
November 27, 2011 at 8:31 pm
Joel Mielke
Anonymous 7:25 may not want to “empower … words like nigger and faggot,” but if he wants to socialize with intelligent people, he’ll probably want to think twice about that.
November 28, 2011 at 11:41 am
Bolithio
I grew up hearing songs like the one below. And this was mainstream. NWA (Niggas with attitude) was groundbreaking stuff in the 80s, but lead to a whole culture of white kids listening to rap – all of which used the ‘N’ word liberally.
“hey sucka nigga, whoever you are”
“hey sucka nigga, hey sucka nigga
whoever you are, whoever you are”
I be hatin sucka MC’s, and the sucka niggas
Posing like they hard when we know they damn card
what you figure, rhyme-wise, I do the figure eight
So concisely, musically we are the herb so sit back
and light me, inhale *inhalation noise*
My style is kinda fat reminescent of a whale
Young girls desires for the females dreams
I be the Abstract Poetic representin from Queens
Socially I’m not a name, black and white got game
If you came to the jam, well I’m glad you came
See, nigga first was used back in the Deep South
Fallin out between the dome of the white man’s mouth
It means that we will never grow, you know the word dummy
Other niggas in the community think it’s crummy
But I don’t, neither does the youth cause we
em-brace adversity it goes right with the race
And being that we use it as a term of endearment
Niggas start to bug to the dome is where the fear went
Now the little shorties say it all of the time
And a whole bunch of niggas throw the word in they rhyme
Yo I start to flinch, as I try not to say it
But my lips is like the oowop as I start to spray it
My lips is like a oowop as I start to spray it
My lips is like a oowop as I start to spray the
Sucka nigga, nigga nigga
I throw the sucka in the front for the ones that front
The sucka niggas, nigga nigga
I throw the sucka in the front for the ones that front
The sucka niggas, nigga nigga
I throw the sucka in the front for the ones that front
It’s the neo-nigga of the nineties, c’mon
November 28, 2011 at 12:11 pm
Mitch
Thanks, Bolithio.
I nearly gave up before getting to the interesting part, so I cut and pasted that part here:
See, nigga first was used back in the Deep South
Fallin out between the dome of the white man’s mouth
It means that we will never grow, you know the word dummy
Other niggas in the community think it’s crummy
But I don’t, neither does the youth cause we
em-brace adversity it goes right with the race
And being that we use it as a term of endearment
Niggas start to bug to the dome is where the fear went
Now the little shorties say it all of the time
And a whole bunch of niggas throw the word in they rhyme
Yo I start to flinch, as I try not to say it
But my lips is like the oowop as I start to spray it
November 28, 2011 at 12:49 pm
Bolithio
The context is often hard in Rap when simply reading the lyrics, I realize. You tube this song to hear it (its catchy!). Public Enemy, Mos Def, and most [smarter] rap guys have all put songs out about the nigga phenomena.
November 28, 2011 at 12:52 pm
Bolithio
Ernie…
“Anything in California is tame by comparison.”
Are you saying genocide is tame compared to slavery? I don’t get it. Or are you only talking about negroes?
November 28, 2011 at 1:44 pm
Anne on a Mouse
My “Mexican” humor is moderated by the fact that he probably hears too much of it already.
When used by whites, spic, nigger, etc.is much more offensive than whitey, cracker, or variations thereof used by blacks, latinos, etc, Because the white race isn’t/wasn’t exploited by the other.
November 28, 2011 at 1:48 pm
tra
It’s my understanding that the current use of the word “nigger” (or “nigga)” in African-American popular culture only became widespread once it was no longer considered acceptable for white people to refer to African-Americans as “niggers.”
Once the derisive use of the word by white people in labeling African-Americans was banished from “acceptable, mainstream” public conversation, this left a space in which this word was still available, but generally only acceptable for African-Americans to use.
So the word “nigger,” which had been wielded as a verbal weapon against African-Americans for generations, was now suddenly a special word that could only be used by African-Americans, and therefore it soon became a kind of point of pride among some African-Americans to use that word casually. Just goes to show that what’s considered offensive speech has a lot to do with context, which includes who the speaker is and what their own background is.
For the most part, you won’t go wrong if you stick to the basic rule of trying to refer to people the way you think they would like you to refer to them. Most white people fully grasp the fact that they aren’t supposed to greet an African-American by saying “yo, my nigga!” even though they might see an African-American greet a fellow African-American that way.
November 28, 2011 at 1:54 pm
alley
I was born and raised in the segregated South. As a white girl I was always curious about the drinking fountains and rest rooms, white only/colored only. Riding in the back of the bus was fun for me and my white friends, but I know it was not for the blacks. Each time I return to the South for a visit I hear the n word so often it sickens me. They are still trying to recover from the Civil War and still blame those damn n*****s for starting that war, really.
November 28, 2011 at 2:01 pm
tra
When used by whites, spic, nigger, etc.is much more offensive than whitey, cracker, or variations thereof used by blacks, latinos, etc, Because the white race isn’t/wasn’t exploited by the other.
This is a very important point. Same thing when discussing prejudice on the part of oppressed/minority populations against privileged/majority populations. It’s not that prejudice by blacks against whites is any less immoral, it’s just that that kind of prejudice has been far less consequential than prejudice by whites against blacks, which is hardly surprising given the minority/majority dynamic, the history, and the power, status and wealth imbalance between the groups.
November 28, 2011 at 2:14 pm
Anne on a Mouse
One contextual usage that I personally find to be rather silly is when whites use it on other whites. I’ve never seen it done in the presence of blacks, but when they’re among themselves, I’ve heard whites call other whites, “yo, my nigga”, etc. Trying to be “hip”-hop or something, I guess.
November 28, 2011 at 2:19 pm
Bolithio
I just had this memory when I was in college we were doing this funk thing (I play guitar) in the dorms. There were these black kids we knew who did allot of raping so we invited them to ‘rap’ over our music. The main dude who had the ‘rappin skills’ seriously was saying nigga like every three words. One of the guys in the band (white) asked him to stop and the look of black guys faces was priceless. He was like, seriously?
Its funny, because Im sure the white guy thought he was taking some morale high ground (if this brother is ignorant, Im going to help him be conscience type of thing) – but in reality he was ignorant, not capable of ever relating to those guys, growing up black *anywhere*.
November 28, 2011 at 2:22 pm
Bolithio
Have you guys seen Bamboozled? There is a great minor part where there is a white guy hanging with the black hip-hop thugs, who completely believes he is black. The cops come in to bust them, killing everyone but him, and he screams as they drag him away, “kill me too! Im black, Im black!!”
Thats a must see movie if your interested in this racial issue. Damon Wanes is amazing in that movie. And Mos Def rocks – yo!!
November 28, 2011 at 3:11 pm
tra
Wise words today from Barney Frank, who just announced his resignation from Congress:
Frank, who came out in 1987, reflected with pride on his role as a gay rights pioneer in the political world, saying he was moved by openly gay New York City Council Speaker Christine Quinn’s claim that she was inspired by his experience.
“The best antidote to prejudice is reality,” he said, “because prejudice is by definition based on ignorance of people’s real condition.”
November 28, 2011 at 3:23 pm
tra
This is why, once established, most civil rights gains, and the new norms they create, tend to be fairly durable. For example, once the U.S. armed forces were racially integrated, this destroyed the argument that minorities couldn’t serve just as well as whites — that argument was exposed as simply not consistent with objective, observable reality. I have no doubt that it will be the same with gays in the military. In fact it seems like the right-wing has already pretty much given up on the idea of re-banning gays from the military. At least as far as I can tell, there doesn’t seem to be any momentum in that direction.
November 28, 2011 at 8:57 pm
Ernie's Place
Bolithio said;
Ernie…
“Anything in California is tame by comparison.”
Are you saying genocide is tame compared to slavery? I don’t get it. Or are you only talking about negroes?
I thought that it was pretty clear that I was talking about my black friends raised in the south. I wasn’t talking about witch burnings, the Spanish inquisition, Atilla the Hun, Genghis Khan, or any of the other stuff that you will never forgive me for. I’m sorry.
November 28, 2011 at 9:32 pm
Joel Mielke
You started with the question: “Progress?”
When people of my generation, like Ernie, are so considerate of how others would like to be referred to, and Eric’s ten-year-old has to ask what a not-so-long-ago common slur means — yes, we’ve progressed.
November 29, 2011 at 9:05 am
Anonymous
“those words which have an impact which is hard for people outside of the particular group to understand.”
As if I don’t associate with “ethnics”, and haven’t had this very discussion? As if “whites” aren’t capable of understanding what it is to be degraded for no reason than our appearance? Mighty politically correct of you, but who’s the bigger biggot, me or you and joel? You understand the principle of what I’m saying, it’s the more evolved attitude regardless of how the media is handling such affairs. Need it be said again?
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but only certain words have an increasing ability to make people fly off the hook and get in all kinds of trouble, and can be used to easily slander people with heavy bias.
November 29, 2011 at 9:10 am
Anonymous
“When used by whites, spic, nigger, etc.is much more offensive than whitey, cracker, or variations thereof used by blacks, latinos, etc, Because the white race isn’t/wasn’t exploited by the other.”\
no, it’s only because we didn’t grow up indoctrined with the idea that being called those words was something to take offense to in the first place. We grew up being told it was very very bad to call other people certain words, but that reason doesn’t exist for “us” to be offended in return.
Again, not saying to go out and call people names, sheesh…but creating dangerous vocabulary does no good. Too philosophical? More like too far removed from the reality in which we’re already buried.
November 29, 2011 at 9:21 am
Anonymous
“You started with the question: “Progress?”
When people of my generation, like Ernie, are so considerate of how others would like to be referred to, and Eric’s ten-year-old has to ask what a not-so-long-ago common slur means — yes, we’ve progressed.”
…except that now kids call eachother other names with the exact same emotional effect. Kids will be kids, we all know this. Like I wrote before, it’s the dynamics of language…our animal noise…and what the intent is, not the specifics of vocabulary, which is entirely a learned disgression.
November 29, 2011 at 10:44 am
Eric Kirk
Anon 9:21 – there’s much more to the word “nigger” than putting someone down because of his/her appearance. Apparently, it’s something you don’t understand, no matter how many “ethnics” you associate with.
November 29, 2011 at 12:43 pm
Plain Jane
Off topic, but this is a HUGE story that isn’t getting any MSM attention.
McCain and Levin have inserted into the defense budget a clause which would essentially cancel posse comitatus and habeas corpus by allowing the military to arrest and hold anyone, anywhere, including US citizens on US soil indefinitely without trial and revoke the ban on torture. President Obama has said he will veto this and he has a lot of military and intelligence support. But why would McCain, who has been staunchly anti-torture, want to revoke the ban on torture? Is this a poison pill to force Obama to veto the budget for political ammunition? And why would Levin want any part of it?
http://www.democracynow.org/2011/11/29/battlefield_america_us_citizens_face_indefinite
November 29, 2011 at 1:09 pm
Joel Mielke
How anyone could compose such a sloppy sentence as, “… it’s the dynamics of language…our animal noise…and what the intent is, not the specifics of vocabulary, which is entirely a learned disgression” is beyond me.
Poor Anonymous appears to live a life devoid of nuance and reflection.
November 29, 2011 at 1:48 pm
Bolithio
Thats nuts Jane. Perhaps a good backdoor way to deal with Occupiers in the long run? Why is Levin a stake holder? Because he, like all entrenched democrats are allied with the elites.
November 29, 2011 at 2:22 pm
tra
P.J.,
Looks like there’s some bad news on that front:
The Senate has knocked down an amendment to the National Defense Authorization Act. From the ACLU:
“WASHINGTON – The Senate voted to defeat an important amendment to the National Defense Authorization Act. The amendment, offered by Sen. Mark Udall (D-Colo.), would have deleted harmful provisions authorizing the U.S. military to pick up and imprison without charge or trial civilians, including American citizens, anywhere in the world. The amendment would have replaced those provisions with a requirement for an orderly congressional review of detention power. “
http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/updates/2221
November 29, 2011 at 2:34 pm
tra
Authorizing military detention and imprisonment without charge and without civilian trials, of anyone, anywhere, including U.S. citizens inside the U.S.?
Hell no. If your own country’s military can arrest you in your own home, and can lock you up indefinitely, without charges, then you really don’t have any meaningful rights, just whatever crumbs the authorities choose to allow. It’s Martial-Law-on-Steroids meets Rabid-Big-Brother.
Should Obama veto this, no matter what the political calculations are?
Hell yes.
November 29, 2011 at 5:21 pm
Plain Jane
Editorial by Udall on his amendment
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/defense-bill-gives-military-too-much-responsibility-for-detainees/2011/11/28/gIQAbbAO6N_story.html
November 29, 2011 at 5:36 pm
Anonymous
“Poor Anonymous appears to live a life devoid of nuance and reflection.”
That made me laugh. Poor joel…have fun reflecting on the nuances of these dimbulbs, crackerjack.
November 29, 2011 at 5:44 pm
Joel Mielke
My, how original.
November 29, 2011 at 6:21 pm
Anonymous
“My, how original.”
My…how unoriginal.
November 29, 2011 at 6:35 pm
Anne on a Mouse
We grew up being told it was very very bad to call other people certain words, but that reason doesn’t exist for “us” to be offended in return.
I understand your point, but I was referring to the degree of the offense. Generally speaking, “nigger” is still a word that carries the baggage of the whole history of the black race’s exploitation. While insults like “cracker” or “whitey” don’t have that “advantage”, And thus have less power, less weight, and less meaning. But I’m not saying that they’re not offensive.
…except that now kids call eachother other names with the exact same emotional effect.
I agree with you that correcting the language isn’t going to reduce the emotional affect desired in any specific case. But overall, I believe that it can affect the direction of our culture.
November 29, 2011 at 7:16 pm
Anne on a Mouse
emotional *effect*
November 29, 2011 at 8:00 pm
Anonymous
It’s funny that white folk have a much harder time talking about this than black folk I’ve talked with about it.
The question is: progress?
My answer is not nearly the progress as if the word went the way of “hell” and “damn” and other “bad words” that nobody gives a shit about because wouldn’t that be so much cooler than giving even more of a shit about something so stupid as name calling.
November 30, 2011 at 12:59 am
Anonymous
Do your kids read your this blog Eric? Maybe they should read this thread?
If explaining the term “nigger” to your child is as bad as it gets in your house, Try explaining why Billy’s daddy and mommy were taken away and put in jail for growing medicine for people that keeps them from being sick.
Try to explaining why Lil Johnny’s dad beats his mom every day after he comes home from work. Or why Lil debbie’s step dad puts his hand down between her legs in the shower.
If explaining “nigger” is the most un-com-fort-a-ble thing you will ever have to explain with your childeren, then you are a very lucky family.
Please explain this meaning Dr. Eric:
“You can take the girl out of the trailer park, but you can’t take the trailer park out of the girl”
November 30, 2011 at 1:30 am
Anonymous
Maybe you should talk to them about strange fruit:
http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/strangefruit/film.html
November 30, 2011 at 9:56 am
Eric Kirk
My answer is not nearly the progress as if the word went the way of “hell” and “damn” and other “bad words” that nobody gives a shit about because wouldn’t that be so much cooler than giving even more of a shit about something so stupid as name calling.
Well, as I said, the use of the word “nigger” is about more than just “name calling.” Obviously you don’t understand the history. And that’s fine. Hopefully it won’t get you into trouble.
Contrary to the “sticks and stones” doctrine, language actually does carry power.
November 30, 2011 at 12:40 pm
tra
One of the ways that we can recognize how far we’ve come is by considering how strange it looks when some group decides to try to apply the rules of 50 years ago to today’s world. Kind of an “exception that proves the rule” situation:
Kentucky Church Votes To Ban Interracial Couples From Becoming Members
A small church in Pike County, Kentucky voted not to accept interracial couples as members or allow them to take part in some worship activities, according to the Lexington Herald-Leader. Melvin Thompson, minister at Gulnare Freewill Baptist Church, explained that the resolution “is not intended to judge the salvation of anyone, but is intended to promote greater unity among the church body and the community we serve.” Thompson issued the ban after a white woman and her black fiance, a native of Zimbabwe, performed at the church in August.
http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2011/11/30/378469/kentucky-church-votes-to-ban-interracial-couples-from-becoming-members/
November 30, 2011 at 1:06 pm
Joel Mielke
“It’s funny that white folk have a much harder time talking about this than black folk I’ve talked with about it.”
If Anonymous has any black acquaintances (unlikely, but within the realm of possibility), they probably avoid him.
November 30, 2011 at 7:55 pm
Anonymous
What can I say, joel, you’re the expert on black folk.
eric’s kid (can you say “sheltered”?) is now armed with a weapon in his vocabulary that doesn’t have to be. It can get his ass kicked and land somebody in serious trouble for kicking his ass.
Instead of trying to argue with me about it, like you think I’m arguing against you or something, consider the fact that whites are the ones who have everything to be ashamed about concerning the word. Read the reasoning in this thread not to use it…basically “because of the history, it’s degrading TO THEM.” You ask if I understand history…I do very well….do you understand ethnocentrism? Bigotry? Imagine if the word…that’s all it is…went the way of “hell” and “damn”.
Organizations band around their own words of religion to control masses for eons. Time to evolve.
November 30, 2011 at 8:00 pm
Anonymous
…and open your eyes. Racism is alive and well. Gentrification is happening full blast right now everywhere. Best straighten your hair, Flo, if you want that job! It’s only a secretary position, but you know a lot of white chicks are going for it too. Don’choo dare slip no ebonics into yo speach now! talk proper like a cracka! Token black best friends in the movies, LOL! They so funny! always a shoulder to lean on…always there with a joke about the white folk.
Lilly white humboldtians, desperate to seem racist.
November 30, 2011 at 9:04 pm
Joel Mielke
“What can I say, joel, you’re the expert on black folk.”
What have I posted that would lead one to such a moronic conclusion? Anonymous would pretend to speak on behalf of African Americans. Eventually, he will “get his ass kicked,” at a minimum, if he bandies “nigger” about as he advocates.
November 30, 2011 at 9:13 pm
Anonymous
“Eventually, he will “get his ass kicked,” at a minimum, if he bandies “nigger” about as he advocates.”
What have I posted that would lead you to such a moronic conclusion? Advocate? Joel would pretend to speak on behalf of African Americans. Eventually, he might wake up to the fact that “they” are not a bunch of unintelligent, hypersensitive conformists.
December 1, 2011 at 9:20 am
Joel Mielke
“Joel would pretend to speak on behalf of African Americans.”
Again, cite an instance, Anonymous. And by all means, since you’re a self-appointed expert on culture and ethnicity, go ahead and let people know that “sticks and stones” works for you, as you toss slurs around.
December 1, 2011 at 9:31 am
Anonymous
Pretty defensive there, joel! You even ridicule the idea that somebody who can converse about the subject as i do might actually have…b-b-b-BLACK friends! You, on the other hand, have done nothing but poo-poo everything I’ve written. Who’s the nigga in this thread? I’m guessing you’re all old enough to be my dad, which says a lot about your attitudes towad race issues. Step back and wake up a bit…you can talk about it and not be “racist”. Buncha politically correct doofs is what this reads like. Progress? The word has more power to manipulate people than ten years ago. A fu-king WORD.
December 1, 2011 at 2:24 pm
Joel Mielke
“You even ridicule the idea that somebody who can converse about the subject…”
No, I’m ridiculing you, specifically, Anonymous. You are a nitwit, and my age does not make you any smarter.
December 17, 2011 at 6:16 pm
So Much for the Bubble « Sohum Parlance II
[...] I recently posted that my son made it to 10 years of age without having heard the word “nigger,” somebody [...]