For those of you who missed it and the lively discussion it’s generated so far, this is Andy Stunich’s 2009 piece on Egypt. This morning violence in Cairo is reported – between conflicting protesters. The military continues to act with restraint. Apparently the conflicting groups are avoiding violence in Alexandria, though I heard a report yesterday that troops fired into the air to separate two rival groups involving some scuffles. It appeared to have started after pro-Mubarak people showing up with pre-printed placards tossed molotov cocktails off a roof at anti-Mubarak demonstrators. This is a point where the opposition leadership, such as it is, had better step up. There are some striking videos through the link.
Addendum: Another report of police in plain clothes riding into the crowd on horses and camels with whips and other weapons.
Not hard for me to know where this is going. I wrote the following in June 2009: There is an extremely dangerous fallacy gaining strength in intellectual circles. It is the fallacy that democracy can save the Islamic World from its tyrants and deprivations and, in turn, save the non Islamic World from Islamic terrorism.
However, the belief that democracy is an instant panacea for all that ails the Islamic World is specious at best. Most of the Islamic World is not ready for democracy and the call for and push for democracy or increased popular control over governments via the election process will further destabilize many countries that are already at risk of being lost to Islamists. Egypt seems to be the focus of many experts’ arguments that democratization will advance peace efforts. However, democracy would most likley result in more Islamist control in Egypt and will do nothing to accomplish peace. Consider that Anwar Sadat, for example, made a cold peace with Israel despite the strong opposition of most of Egyptian society. If he faced popular elections, he never could have or would have been able to make peace.
It is pointless to free people to elect their leaders when they remain enslaved in their minds to an ideology and belief system that will simply mean that instead of Islamists gaining control through subversive means, they will simply gain control via elections. Democracy and elections will no more bring improved conditions to most of the Islamic World and peace than it did to the Gaza Strip where Hamas, a violent terrorist group, won elections in 2006 and then proceeded to shell Israel with hundreds of rockets.
It is unrealistic to expect democracy to bring any better results in those parts of the Islamic World, like Egypt, wherein autocratic governments maintain some control over well established and deeply entrenched Islamist groups like the Muslim Brotherhood. Democracy will no more bring peace and social justice to Egypt than it would to a maximum security prison.
There is a strong belief in Western democracies that the principle of “one person one vote” should control the selection of governments. However, in Egypt that principle would probably translate to “one man one vote” and it would be a literal application in the sense that once an Islamist party gained control, any further elections would occur solely to give a veneer of legitimacy to Islamist control and, thereafter, the election process would have no real chance of removing Islamists from power. Consequently, “one vote” would literally mean, at best, one true vote and, thereafter, relatively meaningless elections of the type seen in Iran.
The word “democracy” derives from Greek words meaning “government of the people.” In Greek, “demos” means people, and “cratos” means government. It follows that democracy will accomplish nothing more than to make the will of the people the dominant force in the land. If the will of the people is controlled by Islam, that means that Islam will control. It is that simple.
All the push for democracy will accomplish in Egypt is to potentially cause the same catastrophe to occur in Egypt as occurred in Iran. I see great similarities between pre-revolutionary Iran and modern Egypt. Hosni Mubarak exhibits many of the same qualities as the Shah of Iran – both good and bad. Both men allied themselves with the United States and both men tried to modernize their countries. They both experienced their strongest opposition from Islamist elements. Some of their tyrannical behavior is or was necessitated by the ruthless nature of their Islamist opponents.
Before democracy can be successfully implemented in places like Egypt, the influence of Islam on the Egyptian people must be considerably diminished and firmly held in check. That will only occur by complete domination and control of Egyptian society and the slow dampening and reduction of the influence of Islam over time. That process would require control of the media, entertainment industry, education system, and Mosques until decades of education eliminated pervasive Islamic control over the beliefs and cultural values of the people. However, such an approach is presently beyond even the power or will of the Egyptian government. Consequently, not only has no progress been made against Islam’s influence in Egypt equivalent to the type of progress Kemal Ataturk imposed on Turkey, the opposite is true. The flow of money from Saudi Arabia has allowed Islamic orthodoxy to spread and Egypt has been losing ground, not gaining ground against Islamic influence.
I suspect that Egypt will eventually be lost to Islamic fundamentalists anyway unless something dramatic, such as Kemalist reforms, are imposed to change the course the country is on. Democratic elections will hasten Egypt’s demise and preclude any possibility of a strong miltary keeping the Islamists at bay while reforms, many of which would be initially unpopular, are imposed that will decrease Islam’s influence on the culture.
The Muslim Brotherhood, albeit its members running for election as “independents,” has already made inroads into Egypt’s government via elections and expanding democracy will simply hasten the Brotherhood’s advances. People like Reza Aslan that teach that allowing groups like the Muslim Brotherhood into the election process causes them to become more moderate is deception at its worse. The Muslim Brotherhood simply acts more moderate to gain ground, but it has no intention of abandoning its true agenda when it has the power to impose it.
One of the most important principles about Islam that non Muslims need to understand is that Muhammad, the man that Reza Azlan professes to believe was the Prophet and Messenger of Allah, said that war is deception. That is hardly a startling statement as most cultures have understood that warfare involves the use of deception. However, Muhammad’s adoption of the principle has far greater implications in Islamic culture. In Islamic doctrine, war has a much broader meaning than in Western culture. Islamic doctrine and belief divides humanity into two opposing spheres: Dar al-Islam, House of Islam where Islam rules and Dar el Harb, the House of War against non-Muslims. Islam teaches that it is Muslims’ duty to spread the influence of Islam by almost any means. It follows that Islamic fundamentalists use deception as a matter of course to advance their Islamist agenda whenever and wherever they can. The principle is instilled into them as a result of their religious belief. They are taught from birth that Muhammad must be obeyed and that his life set a beautiful pattern of conduct for anyone to follow. For Islamists, deception utilized to advance their cause is not only pragmatic, but a way to show their devotion to Muhammad and Allah and to fight so that Islam will be superior. Muhammad himself used deception to great advantage and it is beyond foolish to not expect any Muslim who, since birth, has repeatedly said and heard that “there is no God but Allah and Muhammad was his Prophet” to try and follow Muhammad’s example to the extent of his or her knowledge about Muhammad’s life.
The Ayatollah Khomeini skillfully used deception to gain power in Iran by fraudulently promising democracy and initially working in concert with non Muslim groups, but he ultimately delivered far worse tyranny than the Shah as soon as his grip on power allowed him to do so. Because they were ignorant about Islam, gullible Westerners accepted Ayatollah Khomeini’s false claims. His efforts were supported by ignorant Westerners that failed to realize that while the Shah was terribly flawed, working with the Shah to reform Iranian society was the answer and supporting his overthrow simply brought even greater tyranny to both Iran and the World.
I see the same mistake or tactic developing all over again. It is true that history repeats itself. I see President Obama, moderate and highly educated Middle East experts like Bernard Lewis, and left-wing Islamic apologists like Reza Aslan all calling for democracy in the Middle East. A philosopher once said “beware the desires of thy youth for you may acquire it with age.” President Obama and these experts better be careful for they may well get what they advocate for; however, they may well regret it.
It is understandable that people that live in functional democracies want to see the benefits of democracy spread to the rest of the World. However, with respect to the Islamic World, we need to have the wisdom and courage to understand just how pernicious of an influence Islam is and to mitigate that influence before trying to implement democracy in places like Egypt. I fear that false perceptions of and ignorance about the true nature of Islam will cause many to inadvertently advance radical Islam’s grip on the Middle East with devastating consequences throughout the World. I feel compelled to note that I am giving Reza Aslan the benefit of the doubt here that he is mistaken and simply not implementing a strategy from the Ayatollah’s play book, but to be candid, I am not sure as to his motivations. I have read his books and I believe that he is extremely deceptive in his analysis of Islam.
The only way we can protect ourselves in the long-run and protect those moderate Muslims who truly want to live in peace with non-Muslims is to slowly erase Islam’s influence. Nothing else will work. I have yet to see any other model successfully used to ease Islam’s grip on a culture other than the approach utilized by Kemal Ataturk in Turkey. However, the Turks are increasingly losing their way as the memory of Kemal Ataturk fades over time and the revival of fundamentalist Islam stalks the World. Even in Islamic countries like Turkey that have in the past gained ground toward modernity and freedom, the influence of Islam continues to cause problems and hinder advancement and wherever Islam holds sway over people’s minds they remain enslaved to one degree or another and they will never know true freedom, true democracy, or peace until they free themselves from Islam’s pernicious grip.
It follows that we will never be completely safe from Islamic terrorism and Muslims will never be free until, as Winston Churchill phrased it, “the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.”

61 comments
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February 2, 2011 at 8:35 am
Joel Mielke
Luckily, the people of Egypt could not possibly care less about the goofy, half-baked opinions of Mr. Stunich.
February 2, 2011 at 9:35 am
anonymous
Well said, Joel!
Mr. Stunich’s arrogance and condescension toward people of the Middle East is astounding considering the fascist state of his own country.
February 2, 2011 at 9:37 am
Dave Kirby
That is one of the most slanted examples of ignorant bigotry I have ever seen.
February 2, 2011 at 9:48 am
Dave Kirby
Sometime we’ll have to discuss the Crusades, Colonial Rule and the “Moorish” enlightenment in Europe. Mush of Islam’s attitude in the middle east is the result of exploitation and humiliation by “Christian” powers.
February 2, 2011 at 10:13 am
Fred Mangels
Can someone cite a single muslim country that’s adopted democracy and is flourishing as a result? I’m sure there must be at least one but I can’t think of any off the top of my head.
February 2, 2011 at 10:30 am
tra
Turkey.
February 2, 2011 at 10:33 am
Erasmus
Thank you,Dave Kirby, for labeling the comment above yours for what it is: ignorant bigotry. Anyone who thinks the America of Barack Obama and Jerry Brown is “fascist” is a bigot of the worst sort (and ignorant of history, to boot).
February 2, 2011 at 11:02 am
Eric Kirk
Fred – Turkey and arguably though not without reasonable dispute, Indonesia.
Oh, and if you believe the reports – Iraq.
February 2, 2011 at 11:40 am
anonymous
Erasmus,
Fascism – system of government characterized by rigid one-party dictatorship – actually we have a 2 party dictatorship with each party giving and taking just enough to fool most of the people that we have a democracy.
Fascism – forcible suppression of opposition – what do you call excluding all other parties from political debate? What do you call physical repression of peaceful protestors by the police? What do you call raiding the houses of and arresting antiwar activists? What do you call the infiltration of peace groups by the FBI? What do you call governmental snooping (without cause) of all communication? How about rendition of it’s own citizens? There’s so much more.
Fascism – private economic enterprise under centralized governmental control. We have the reverse here – government under the control of corporations who in turn determine the economic health of the country. Do I have to go into the economic health of the U.S.?
Fascism – belligerent nationalism, racism, and militarism. These all speak for themselves.
February 2, 2011 at 12:18 pm
Dave Kirby
Erasmus…I didn’t mention fascism and don’t think the word applies to the U.S.A. my beef is with Andy’s characterization of Islam.
February 2, 2011 at 12:22 pm
Erasmus
I’m sure you’ll soon be applying for an visa to reside in some non-fascistic country somewhere. (That’s what beleaguered folk did in Europe in the 1930s, when real fascism was rearing its head.) — There is so much claptrap in your definition of fascism that argument is pointless. Why and how such self-pitying ignorance finds fertile soil in citizens of a country that countless millions would pay dearly to live in is a subject for a study by psychologists. — Robert O. Paxton’s “The Anatomy of Fascism” paints a picture of fascism as actually lived. It’s a good antidote to the whining about Jerry Brown or Barack Obama-style of “fascism.”
February 2, 2011 at 12:23 pm
Dave Kirby
And for the record the U.S. is not a Democracy if it were Al Gore would have been declared the winner in 2000. He did get half a million more votes than Bush.
February 2, 2011 at 1:23 pm
Andy Stunich
Patently, Islamic culture gives rise to tyranny. Why? Amongst other reasons, no Muslim leader can hold power if he is not a Muslim or at least pretend to be one quite well. Further, Egypt is a signatory to the Cairo Declaration for Human Rights (DHR) The DHR declares that Sharia Law supersedes all other laws, Constitutions or treaties. Presently, Sharia law is not fully adhered to in Egypt, but that may change. Any new government will need to placate the Islamists to survive. Plus, the majority of Egyptians actually want to live under Sharia law.
Sharia law is one of the reasons why tyranny reigns in the Islamic world as Sharia law allows a Muslim leader to seize power by force. Hence, any leader in a majority Islamic country is compelled to fight back using force and oppression or he and his regime will succumb to the extremists.
Accordingly, any chance that this uprising, rebellion or whatever it is will improve Egypt’s circumstances is highly improbable. Already, the tourists are fleeing en masse and it would take a lengthy return to stability before they return in significant numbers. That is why I say that the Egyptians have jumped out of the pan and into the fire. I further suspect that the U.S aid will soon end adding further injury. Prepare for much higher gas prices when the Suez Canal is controlled by Islamists and while it may take awhile, a new era of war in the Islamic-Israeli Conflict.
February 2, 2011 at 1:24 pm
Eric Kirk
Here’s an account from The Atlantic.
From the Atlantic’s Graeme Wood:
The Egyptian protest started getting violent early this afternoon, a few minutes after a cheerful girl, about 14 years old, handed me a caramel. Since I arrived yesterday afternoon, and up until the caramel reached my hand, Tahrir Square was a calm place lacking any menace whatsoever. Children were having their faces painted. Men and women were happily sweeping up trash, helping each other pitch tents, and waiting patiently for their turn at the water tap. It reminded me of Burning Man, except that in the place of stations for full-body nude massages or refills of psychedelics, it had little protest areas where one could find Muslim Brothers, students, and every other flavor of disaffected Egyptian.
I was sitting across from the Mogamma, the imposing futurist fortress on the edge of the square, when I heard that a pro-Mubarak crowd that started in Muhandiseen, about a mile away, had started to stream into the square from the direction of the Egyptian Museum. A few of them had already reached the KFC at the center of the square when I saw the first of more than a hundred injured men being carried back to safety, which for the protesters meant the center of the square. Then the stones started flying, and the blood gushing in full force. Each side was systematically unpaving downtown Cairo, and in moments when they were not throwing stones they were breaking them against the curb into smaller stones that they could throw further. Men and women were screaming and crying, and I lifted my notebook to my head to avoid getting brained by a stray rock.
February 2, 2011 at 2:02 pm
Joel Mielke
Mr. Stunich has a bag of cheap rhetorical tricks that he trundles out for these threads. What he does not have is information.
February 2, 2011 at 2:05 pm
Eric Kirk
Andy – when the molotov cocktails start flying tourists start fleeing. It’s a basic law of physics.
As to whether it will improve the lot for Egyptians, I can’t say, but I am reminded of a quote from Voltaire in response to a question about replacing French monarchy – “I tell you there is a monster sucking the blood of your children, and you ask me with what I will replace it?”
Islam, like every other religion including Christianity, will adjust to social realities once it becomes necessary. Academic theologists will come up with “historical context” arguments about the inconvenient passages, just as we have, and some Episcopalian varieties of Islam will flourish especially if people are satisfied in economic terms. In fact, they already have and our mutual professor friend Dr. Aziz has presented some of them in prior discussions. There will be fundamentalist opposition, with Islamic equivalents of Scopes Monkey trials and the ascent of thematic symbolist interpretations of scripture at the expense of fundamental literalists, and as poverty and illiteracy decline, the modernist interpretations will take root. It’s happened with every other world religion. It’s been delayed in Islam because of tribal culture and insularity afforded the region partly because it could coast on oil revenues at the expense of modernization. But that’s coming to an end, and Egypt is an excellent test case because its culture has been saturated with exposure to cosmopolitanism for decades now. And the military is exercising restraint, probably due to all of the Euro-American military contacts. If they don’t overreact, the possibility of transition without blood-letting remains on the table. The nature of the transition can also condition the long term viability of the new government.
I’m all for cutting off aid, though Rep. Ellison pointed out the other night that no drastic action should be taken as the aid was part of the Camp David peace deal and therefor the aid should not be used as a weapon. So I don’t think it’s going to end soon, though the policy will certainly be revisited.
February 2, 2011 at 2:09 pm
tra
Juan Cole’s blog, “Informed Comment” has an excellent piece on why the scaremongering about Egypt going the way of Iran is not justified:
http://www.juancole.com/2011/02/why-egypt-2011-is-not-iran-1979.html
Here is an excerpt:
“The white collar and labor activists are far more central to the organization of the Egyptian protests than had been their counterparts in the Iranian Revolution. The Egyptian “bazaar” is much less tied to the Muslim clergy than was the case in Iran, and far less likely to fund clerical politicians. Whereas Iran’s bazaar merchants often suffered from Western competition, Egypt’s bazaar depends centrally on Western tourism. Secular parties, if we count the NDP, have an organizational advantage over the religious ones, since they have been freer to meet and act under Mubarak. It is not clear that the law banning religious parties will be changed, in which case the Brotherhood would again be stuck with running its candidates under other rubrics. And, Sunni Muslims don’t have a doctrine of owing implicit obedience to their clergy, and the clergy are not as important in Sunni religious life as the Shiite Ayatollahs are in Iran. The Muslim Brotherhood, a largely lay organization, has a lot of support, but it is not clear that they could gain more than about a third of seats even if they were able to run in free elections.”
February 2, 2011 at 2:35 pm
tra
Cole has also just posted a piece on the latest round of attempted repression, putting it in the context of other actions Mubarek has taken to date:
http://www.juancole.com/
The piece is called “Mubarek’s Basij,” comparing the pro-Mubarek thugs with the Basij “militias” deployed by the Iranian regime against protesters in 2009. The similarities are eerie, though they should not, perhaps, be surprising, given that both Mubarek’s regime and the Iranian regime are authoritarian in nature…though ostensibly with different societal goals. Of course the first objective of any authoritarian regime is always the same: Stay in power by any means necessary.
It looks like Mubarek is really getting quite desperate, thus today’s violent attacks on the anti-Mubarek forces. Reports are that the pro-Mubarek forces, numbering a few thousand, arrived equipped with clubs and machetes, and with some of them on horseback or camels and armed with whips. Meanwhile, Mubarek supporters on rooftops are raining down a huge number of Molotov cocktails onto the pro-Mubarek crowd in Tahrir Square.
As Cole (and many others) have pointed out, the military had been checking anti-Mubarek protesters for weapons before allowing them through checkpoints and into the square, but somehow much smaller, but well-armed pro-Mubarek forces were able to get through with plenty of weapons.
This is a crucial test for the military. It’s not enough to say that they won’t fire on peaceful protesters — they need to disarm everyone, or no-one. Otherwise they will certainly (and understandably) be seen as taking the side of the pro-Mubarek forces.
And obviously they’d better get a handle on the Molotov-cocktail situation, or else they will lose all credibility in terms of any claim that they have the situation under control and are going to allow peaceful protests to take place. It’s pretty hard to protest peacefully with Molotov cocktails raining down on you from armed thugs on rooftops.
Apparently, Mubarek hopes to create enough chaos to (a) scare many of the anit-Mubarek protesters off the streets, and (b) provoke others to counter-violence (which has already succeeded, in that stone-throwing battles have taken place between the two sides) to convince wavering members of the public that the protesters are dangerous and violent people worthy of state repression.
A dangerous strategy, and one that is as likely as not to backfire on him, but at this point, with his uniformed security forces decisively routed on Friday, and the Army announcing that it would at least not directly attack the anti-Mubarek protesters, Mubarek is quickly running out of options. Organized but un-uniformed mobs of violent pro-Mubarek vigilantes wielding whips, clubs, machetes and Molotov cocktails is one of the few ways he still has to try to confront his opponents on the streets.
February 2, 2011 at 2:48 pm
Dave Kirby
Tyranny is as much a product of colonialism as it is of a particular religion. Around the world be it Africa, Latin America or South East Asia the successors to colonial rule are most often dictators be they individuals or military juntas. With time some have morphed into representative governments in various guises. Some have dabbled in democracy only to return to oligarchies or one party systems. Colonialism taught many in the third world that, as Mao stated, “power comes from the barrel of a gun”and resources belong to those with the power to take them.
February 2, 2011 at 3:25 pm
tra
From TPM:
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/live/egypt_wire/egypt_wire.html?ref=fpa
“CNN’s Anderson Cooper reports that Mubarak supporters — widely believed to be government employees, police officers and/or civilians paid by the government — are dwindling, with a few hundred left on the outskirts of Tahrir Square, compared to thousands of anti-Mubarak protesters. …The sides are still fighting, flinging rocks and Molotov cocktails at one another.”
Sounds like the Molotovs have started flying on both sides. Guess that was bound to happen sooner or later. The good news is that it sounds like the pro-Mubarek attackers have been beaten back, and the reformers still hold Tahrir Square.
Mubarek’s played the Police State card, which was trumped by the massive numbers of protesters who routed his uniformed security forces on Friday, he’s played the Dismiss the Cabinet card and the “I’ll step down…eventually” card, both of which were dismissed as insufficient, and now he’s resorted to playing the the Armed Thugs card. Not sure how many more tricks he can have up his sleeve. I guess we’ll see what tomorrow brings.
February 2, 2011 at 3:32 pm
tra
More from the same TPM link:
“Mubarak Supporters Retreat To Overpass
Mubarak supporters have reportedly collected on an overpass above Tahrir Square and are lobbing Molotov cocktails onto the crowd from above. The army is still not intervening.”
February 2, 2011 at 4:54 pm
tra
An on-the-ground report from Sharif Abdel Kouddous of Democracy Now:
http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2011/2/2/live_from_egypt_the_true_face_of_the_mubarak_regime
Some highlights..or perhaps lowlights would be a better term:
“Pro-Mubarak mobs began gathering near Tahrir square shortly after Mubarak’s speech on Tuesday night and held a rally in front of the state TV building on Corniche El Nile St. In the morning, they began marching around the downtown area in packs of 50 to 100…
…By midday their numbers had swelled dramatically and they began pouring into the downtown area heading straight for Tahrir Square. The army, which had encircled Tahrir since Saturday, simply let them in. The pro-democracy protesters inside formed a human chain inside to try and hold the mob at bay. Utilizing their greater numbers, they initially succeeded in pushing them back non-violently and appeared to have them in full retreat. But then, the mob attacked.
“Suddenly, rocks started falling out of the sky,” said Ismail Naguib, a witness at the scene. “Rocks were flying everywhere. Everywhere.” Many people were hit. Some were badly cut, others had arms and legs broken. The mob then charged in, some riding on horseback and camels trampling and beating people. Groups of them gathered on rooftops around Tahrir and continued to pelt people with rocks….
…Some of the attackers were caught. Their IDs showed them to be policemen dressed in civilians clothes. Others appeared to be state sponsored ‘baltagiya’ and government employees…
…Meanwhile, pro-Mubarak crowds blocked all the entrances to Tahrir. They chanted angrily and pushed people back trying to get in. The army was complicit in the siege, preventing anyone, including journalists from entering. The attack inside continued for several hours. At least 600 were injured and one killed…”
February 2, 2011 at 5:33 pm
Plain Jane
The people are probably wise not to trust Mubarak to leave power with this demonstration that he is willing to use government forces dressed as civilians to violently stop the protests while hiding his involvement proves he is not only a monster, but a monster who isn’t going to willingly give up power, even if he has to rule from behind the throne with a puppet president. The UN should vote for sanctions until he is out of Egypt – without their treasury.
February 2, 2011 at 6:15 pm
tra
Mainstream news sources, including CNN, have noted that the Army is playing a very dangerous game by allowing armed pro-Mubarek forces to pass through checkpoints unhindered, a very different standard than the anti-Mubarek forces have been held to.
And some sources, including Sharif Abdel-Kouddous, have reported that at the height of the struggle for control of the square today, the Army had cut off the square and wasn’t letting anyone in or out.
If you disarm one group of protesters and allow them into the square, but then allow an opposing group to enter the square armed with clubs, machetes and Molotov cocktails, and then you seal off the square while the all-too-predictable carnage ensues, it’s hard to say that you’re not taking sides, or that you’re respecting the rights of the first group to peacefully protest.
If these reports are true, it’s a very troubling development, to say the least.
Looks like Mubarek’s next move may be to try to use the violence perpetrated by his supporters today as an excuse to order the Army to quell the anti-regime protests tomorrow and over the next few days.
It remains to be seen whether the Army will go beyond the passive, complicit role they are alleged to have taken today, to the point where they would be actively trying to clear Tahrir Square and enforce a kind of martial law.
That seems to be what the pro-Mubarek thugs were there to do — create chaos in order to justify a clampdown. They couldn’t hope to dislodge the much larger crowd of anti-Mubarek protesters without resorting to violence, and as it turns out, even the violent attacks failed to drive the anti-Mubarek protesters out of the square. But they did succeed in creating images of chaos, and they did succeed in provoking the anti-Mubarek forces into fighting back with rocks and Molotov cocktails of their own.
If that’s what Mubarek has in mind, it would be quite a gamble. If he succeeds in using some combination of armed mobs and Army units to take over the streets, he may buy himself some time, and some bargaining power in any negotiations over a transitional government and elections. But if the crackdown fails because the Army refuse to actively attack the Anti-Mubarek forces, or if it fails despite the Army’s efforts, either way that will leave Mubarak in a very precarious position, probably forced to flee the country.
Basically, Mubarak has doubled-down, and now we’ll see if he wins (at least kinda-sorta wins by buying himself more time) or whether he loses, and loses big.
February 2, 2011 at 6:30 pm
tra
A CNN reporter just tweeted:
“Soldiers searching, checking IDs of people coming from Tahrir square.”
But not on the way in. At least not if you were a pro-Mubarak thug on horseback wielding a whip, or a pro-Mubarak thug carrying a club, machete or materials for a Molotov cocktail. Starting to look like a privatized version of Tiennamen Square, with the Army hanging back in a wink-wink supportive role while private thugs, including security police without their uniforms, do the dirty work. It may get worse before it gets better.
More CNN tweets:
http://twitter.com/cnni/egypt/
February 2, 2011 at 6:30 pm
Eric Kirk
I did see a clip on the Rachel Maddow show where a tank laid down a line of smoke to separate the two crowds. It seemed neutral, but it was a lone tank. There may not be a coherent plan, or any coherent orders.
February 2, 2011 at 6:32 pm
Eric Kirk
And in fact the anti-Mabarak protesters were cheering that tank.
February 2, 2011 at 7:02 pm
tra
From what I can gather, it sounds like unfortunately that was an isolated incident of constructive engagement on the part of that Army tank.
Right now, lots of CNN tweets about more and more automatic weapons fire in Tahrir square. Latest one indicates that pro-Mubarek forces on the rooftops have now graduated from Molotov-cocktail throwing to automatic weapons fire and are raining down bullets on the square, where thousands of unarmed protesters continue to hold their ground.
Hundreds of wounded protesters, the number still growing, are being treated by medics on the ground in the heart of the square. Triage is being performed and they are trying to get the most seriously wounded folks out to the hospitals; not enough ambulances to get everyone out who needs to get out.
This is starting to look like an attempted massacre of anti-Mubarek protesters. If the anti-Mubarek forces weren’t so numerous, the outcome of the attempted massacre would not be in question. It’s sickening to think of the pain and destruction that is happening at this very moment.
February 2, 2011 at 8:02 pm
tra
More evidence coming out about pro-Mubarek thugs. Yup, I’m going with the word “thugs,” not “protesters.” These people came armed and with the clear intent of inflicting violence, not just having their say. CNN has a good piece rounding up some of the evidence of the involvement of Muarek’s security forces (now without uniforms, but stupidly still carrying their ID badges when caught), along with state workers, petrochemical company workers, and others ordered and/or paid to take part in these attacks:
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/02/02/egypt.pro.mubarak/index.html
February 2, 2011 at 8:19 pm
Plain Jane
Check out the differences in the way the WaPo is reporting as compared to the NYT.
In the WaPo the thugs are Mubarak supporters whipped up by the state media.
In the NYT they are unleashed government provocateurs and “The deployment of plainclothes forces paid by Mr. Mubarak’s ruling party — men known here as baltageya — has been a hallmark of the Mubarak government, and there were many signs that the violence was carefully choreographed.”
February 2, 2011 at 8:30 pm
Joel Mielke
How will Egypt get through this crisis without the enlightened, guiding hand of Andy Stunich to help them along? Stunich’s wisdom languishes on this obscure blog, as events unfold in a faraway place. Sniff.
February 2, 2011 at 9:03 pm
tra
Twitter reports from Al Jazeera English:
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/01/201112523026521335.html
Live Video from Al Jazeera English:
http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/
Five confirmed deaths among anti-Mubarak protesters as a result of the gunfire over the past couple of hours. At least 15 injured by the gunfire fo far. CNN and Al Jazeera reporting “heavy machine gun fire” and that automatic weapons fire has been “almost continuous at times.”
Protesters are huddled behind makeshift barricades in Tahrir Square as the sun begins to rise on a street battle that has raged all through the night. No sign that the Anti-Mubarak forces have any intention of giving up their occupation of the square. Hard to know for sure just what’s going to happen next, but my heart goes out to these brave souls, who are literally risking their lives to achieve democratic reforms. (Meanwhile, here in fat-and-happyland we complain about having to wait in line for half an hour to vote!)
If the Army fails to stop the attacks on the Anti-Mubarak protesters — and especially if they are seen as being complicit with the pro-Mubarak thugs — they run the risk that many of the million or so Anti-Mubarak protesters who demonstrated so peacefully on Tuesday (but weren’t in the square in such large numbers on Wednesday when these violent attacks took place) may decide to arm themselves and head back to the square to defend their compatriots.
It seems pretty clear that the Anti-Mubarak forces outnumber the pro-Mubarak thugs, and so far the fact that one side is much better armed than the other has been an important factor — most recently with the outbreak of automatic weapons fire. But if the Anti-Mubarak forces arm themselves in response, the bloodbath may continue, but it is unlikely to remain quite so one-sided in terms of who is doing most of the shooting versus who is doing most of the bleeding and dying.
I hope it doesn’t come to that…but I certainly wouldn’t blame the Anti-Mubarak protesters for going that route. At this point the best thing that can be said for the Army is that it hasn’t actively opened fire on the protesters. But there is no question that the Army has failed to do what they said they would do in terms of stopping violence and protecting the rights of the (until-now) peaceful protesters.
If I had Molotov cocktails and heavy machine-gun fire being rained down on me all night, while the Army stood by and let it happen, I would be sorely tempted to find something better than a rock to fight back with. This is why I am an anti-militarist, but not a full-fledged, dogmatic pacifist. There comes a point when defending yourself — and, yes, fighting back — seems like the only choice…aside from allowing yourself to be massacred.
As Bruce Cockburn put it, taking the perspective of a Nicaraguan peasant who sees his village laid waste by a helicopter: ‘If I had a rocket launcher / Some son of a bitch would surely die.”
February 2, 2011 at 9:08 pm
tra
Having secured their position in Tahrir Square, there are reports that the Anti-Mubarak forces are beginning to take over rooftops surrounding the square, especially those overlooking where various streets lead into the square. If true, that’s a smart move.
February 2, 2011 at 9:17 pm
tra
A young woman, an Anti-Mubarak protester in Tahrir Square, just now, via Al Jazeera:
“We know that if we give up now, they will hunt us down one by one.”
She goes on to describe her friends being injured by rocks and Molotov cocktails, and seeing someone just a few feet away being shot in the head. She sounds desperate, yet absolutely determined to persevere. Can’t believe the Army is standing by and letting this happen.
February 2, 2011 at 9:27 pm
Eric Kirk
It should be daylight there now, right? Hopefully more people will come out.
The police have been active actually. They searched rooms of reporters in at least one hotel confiscating cameras and recorders.
I really hope there’s some serious behind-the-scenes pressure on Mubarak to skip town, but whether that will quell the violence is a question. From TPM:
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2011/02/into_the_power_vacuum.php?ref=fpblg
I’ve seen a lot of references today to “Mubarak’s thugs.” CNN has a good rundown on who instigated the violence in Cairo and points the finger in the general direction of pro-Mubarak, state-supported provocateurs. What you might call “inside agitators.”
I don’t have much doubt that that’s broadly true. But it may miss a more important point. Mubarak could have cracked down on the protestors at any time over the last few days. But the violence didn’t erupt until Mubarak’s statement last night that he will not seek another term this year. Today’s clashes were probably not the regime’s final death rattle, but rather the beginning of the struggle to determine who emerges on top in the post-Mubarak era.
Mubarak’s concession created a power vacuum within which an array of competing forces will now battle it out, including still-powerful elements of the Mubarak regime, the broader ruling elites (including the opposition), the military, etc. *Late Update: For a thorough treatment of these competing forces, see this blog post by Paul Amar (thanks to TPM Reader DB for the tip.)
The proximate target of today’s violence was anti-regime protestors, but the ultimate goal of those coordinating the violence is to improve their positions in the post-Mubarak Egypt. That’s not a defense of Mubarak. It’s an observation that there are many competing interests swirling through Tahrir Square.
They may have been “Mubarak’s thugs” but with Mubarak gone they will still be thugs, grasping for the brass ring Mubarak has relinquished. Calls from inside and outside Egypt today for Mubarak to do this or to refrain from doing that may overstate the power Mubarak still has to control the events that have been unleashed.
I question the analysis though. Assuming it’s true, then what do the thugs have to gain from attacking protesters? You’d think that any opportunists would want to court them.
February 2, 2011 at 9:31 pm
Eric Kirk
This from a rec’ed post at Kos:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/2/2/940844/-My-Cairo
Update: There is a massacre occurring in Tahrir Square. Mona Seif is in the square and is on Al Jazeera asking the world in tears, “what more needs to happen”?
She reiterates that the thousands of people in Tahrir are not leaving (they can’t leave, they are surrounded), and that either they will all be killed or the world does something.
Teenagers, women, children are in the square.
February 2, 2011 at 9:33 pm
Eric Kirk
CNN’s Anderson Cooper was attacked by Mubarak supporters. Video through the link.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/02/02/egypt.journalists.attacked/index.html?hpt=T1
Sally, I’m really glad your mother is resting in Fortuna!
February 2, 2011 at 9:50 pm
mresquan
Having finally had some time to sit and watch some videos of the uprising,I have to say that it is quite something to see,no jugglers,no stilts no global warming ranters,etc…just a unified message sent to Mubarak that he must go Now,without compromise.How it plays out in the end we’ll soon find out.But as long as the moderate,peaceful element stays active I’d say it can’t be a bad thing as these are the people who have the chance to quell the fringe elements who could send the whole uprising into the wrong direction.
February 2, 2011 at 9:52 pm
tra
“It should be daylight there now, right? Hopefully more people will come out.”
Looks like that’s starting to happen. From Twitter:
watergatesummer: RT @ProducerMatthew Eyewitness:
Amount of people entering #TahrirSquare in #Cairo is growing rapidly. #Egypt
February 2, 2011 at 9:59 pm
Eric Kirk
Does Fox even have anyone on the ground? They’re not even covering it at the moment. MSNBC and CNN are covering it around the clock. Right now Hannity is whining about how some priest who didn’t treat him right later had sex with someone, or something.
February 2, 2011 at 10:14 pm
tra
Okay, I realize that I’m stating the obvious, but Mubarak needs to step down…like right NOW.
February 2, 2011 at 10:18 pm
tra
At this point, unless he can somehow force the genie of popular uprising back into the bottle of repression, Mubarek is probably going to end up having to flee the country.
Before this round of violent attacks by his thugs, he might have been able to leave office but retire in Egypt. But now the chant of “prosecute the murderer” is ringing out in the square. Mubarak raised the ante in a game he seems almost certain to lose.
February 2, 2011 at 10:19 pm
tra
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable. ” – John F Kennedy.
February 2, 2011 at 11:12 pm
Eric Kirk
Aasif Mandvi of the Daily Show News asked an American-Egyptian demonstrator outside the Egyptian embassy: “Where will America send its prisoners to be properly tortured if Mubarak falls?”
The demonstrator responded, “Well, maybe they can open another Guantanamo Bay in the midwest or something.”
February 2, 2011 at 11:26 pm
Eric Kirk
I take it back. Fox is discussing Egypt. The story to them? Gas and oil prices are going up, and why aren’t we drilling more to be oil-independent?
I’m glad they have their priorities straight!
February 2, 2011 at 11:38 pm
tra
Fox “News” coverage of domestic issues is reprehensible. Their international coverage is pathetic.
February 3, 2011 at 1:42 am
tra
Tweet from Al Jazeera correspondent:
Supporters of Mubarak carrying knives and sticks headed to Tahrir Square after a day and night of violence against protesters.
Tweets from CNN correspondents:
Crowds growing in Tahrir Square. Check points tightly controlling who enters.
Soldiers stand between anti- and pro-Mubarak protesters in Cairo’s Tahrir Square
Pro-Mubarak skirmishes tested the anti-Mubarak’s lines this morning. Repelled
February 3, 2011 at 1:50 am
tra
And from Al Jazeera’s live blog:
11:35am Egyptian soldiers separated pro-democracy supporters and Mubarak loyalists in central Cairo, deploying infantry to create a buffer zone in an attempt to halt violence between them.
A Reuters journalist at the scene says the opposing camps are separated by a distance of some 80 metres. It is the first time the army acts decisively to halt the violence.
Meanwhile, the regime says it is shocked, shocked to find out that their armed supporters were wreaking havoc on unarmed protesters as their army stood by and did nothing to stop the carnage:
Egypt’s cabinet denies that it had a role in mobilising Mubarak loyalists against pro-democracy protesters in Cairo’s Tahrir Square and said it would investigate those behind violence. Cabinet spokesman Magdy Rady said: “To accuse the government of mobilising this is a real fiction. That would defeat our object of restoring the calm. We were surprised with all these actions.”
Well, maybe the spokesman was surprised… but Mubarek’s security goons all seemed to get the memo.
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2011/02/02/live-blog-feb-3-egypt-protests
February 3, 2011 at 7:35 am
Plain Jane
Fox shows its zeal for self-determined democracy. The only democracy they have any interest in is that from the end of a gun which benefits their corporate sponsors financially.
My heart aches for the Egyptians struggling for democracy. If I believed in the power of prayer I would be on my knees demanding divine intervention, but all I can do is seethe with outrage. Andy should be feeling ashamed of his delusional superiority over these courageous people who are putting their lives in jeopardy to achieve the liberty he received as a gift at birth.
February 3, 2011 at 3:01 pm
Eric Kirk
Meanwhile, the beat goes on.
In Yemen.
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/news/2011/02/yemen_day_of_rage_draws_thousands_then_fizzles.php?ref=fpa
And in the Sudan.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/03/world/africa/03sudan.html?_r=1
February 3, 2011 at 3:49 pm
Plain Jane
Egypt’s Bumbling Brotherhood
By SCOTT ATRAN
link
February 4, 2011 at 2:12 pm
ED Denson
Saw the US Defense secretary on Jon Stewart’s show last night. He says we have good communications with Egypt’s army because many of the officers trained in the US, and, in effect, know their US counterparts. Judging from the on again off again attacks on the demonstrators (press and human rights activists too) it appears that under the surface there is some sort of power struggle going on in the government. Today’s army actions appear to show that the struggle is being won by the side that wants to come to terms with the demonstrators rather than attempt to suppress them.
The demonstrators should hope so, since time is on the government’s side because these demonstrations are very expensive for the demonstrators, many of whom probably don’t have the ability to miss their normal way of making a living for many days. If things calm down because of negotiations, or exhaustion, it will be very difficult to get the demonstrations started again and the people will probably settle for what they can get from the altered government, even if it falls short of their current desires. That’s the great danger to the demonstrators in allowing Mubarak to remain in power, even temporarily, because he regains the upper hand as soon as they all stay home. If he’s gone, the odds of really free elections increase. Whether elections will get the people what they want is unclear because some elections do not result in more elections later.
February 4, 2011 at 3:17 pm
Eric Kirk
Ed – with 40 percent unemployment, they probably don’t have much else to do.
February 4, 2011 at 3:58 pm
Random Guy
Andy Stunich says:
“Bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla…”
February 4, 2011 at 4:55 pm
Eric Kirk
RG – something about that post reminds me of The Shining.
February 4, 2011 at 8:19 pm
Joel Mielke
Random Guy is too generous.
February 4, 2011 at 9:08 pm
Ernie's Place
I have to admit that I was unable to read all the way through Andy’s in depth analysis, so I was delighted to find R. G’s synopsis.
I often find myself in total agreement with Mielke.
Maybe the situation in the middle east will unfold without our help, who really knows?
February 5, 2011 at 11:05 am
Joel Mielke
Ernie cannot be blamed for not slogging through Mr. Stunich’s turgid, pompous prose. He begs the question in the first sentence of every paragraph:
“It is pointless to free people to elect their leaders …”
“It is unrealistic to expect democracy to bring any better results…”
“Before democracy can be successfully implemented in places like Egypt…”
“I suspect that Egypt will eventually be lost to Islamic fundamentalists…”
“It is understandable that people that live in functional democracies want to see the benefits of democracy spread…”
“The only way we can protect ourselves in the long-run…”
Etc., etc, “bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla…”
February 6, 2011 at 9:55 am
moviedad
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
February 6, 2011 at 11:41 am
Joel Mielke
Uh, okay.
February 11, 2011 at 4:16 pm
The Kirk Accord – Democracy Hypocrisy — Joe Blow Report
[...] This reality was never more apparent in his latest postings and comments regarding the revolution in Egypt. Here are the links, starting with latest to the oldest: 1) Here. 2) Here. 3) Here and. 4) Here. [...]