I haven’t been following the events in Egypt, but you can follow it with TPM’s wire on the subject. When I find some time, I’ll read up and write something about it.
The ideologies of the opposition appear to be very mixed, so it’s hard to know where the country will be taken if the opposition prevails. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton is telling Egypt to “listen to the opposition,” which consists of Islamic conservatives, leftists, trade unionists, and others. Does the opposition have a spokesman?
Coincidentally, Republicans and Democrats are coming out in support of a Marxist-Feminist terror group fighting the Iranian regime. Where is Sean Hannity? The group has links to a Marxist-Feminist Kurdish independence group with many female soldiers who have been plaguing American and Iranian troops for years.
The photo is from AP.
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January 28, 2011 at 10:57 am
Reporta
It’s chaos. There is no organized opposition. It’s primarily a spontaneous youth uprising heavily inspired by recent events in Tunisia. But the regime is corrupt as hell, so obviously the US is worried about losing their dictator of choice there.
But if the opposition prevails, regardless of how it takes shape the new government will more likely than not be hostile or far less warmer to Israel, and could further inspire these flare ups throughout the Middle East.
And how the U.S. is being largely ignored is a sign of this country’s waning credibility.
January 28, 2011 at 11:30 am
Anonymous
Fox News thinks it’s Al Qaida. This may feed into the end days prophecy crowd especially if the new government declares war in Israel.
January 28, 2011 at 11:46 am
Sally
I’ve been following this rather closely, because my mom has been in Egypt since January 20th. (we got word this morning she is safe – she’s due home this weekend)
I think 70% of Egypt’s population (which is 80 million!) are 30 years and younger. 90% of the huge number of unemployed Egyptians also fall within that age group. Egypt does not seem to have the equivalent of Iran’s “basij” – (the civilian thugs who terrorized the protesters after the 2009 “re-election” of Ahmadinejad) and I’ve actually read some reports of Egyptian police tearing off their uniforms, and joining the protesters. I’m anxious for my mom to get home, safe and sound.
January 28, 2011 at 12:13 pm
tra
Sally,
Best wishes for your Mom’s safe return.
January 28, 2011 at 1:28 pm
Eric Kirk
Ditto that!
January 28, 2011 at 1:53 pm
Joe Blow
Eric, My take:
What’s happened in the past in the Middle East is that the United States preached Democracy and practiced support for ruthless Dictators. Co-opting and compromising these “stooge” governments to protect oil interests and Israel. Any Dictator that didn’t do what he was told got taken out. All of this was done while fabulous amounts of wealth were taken (stolen) from the people to legitimize a few chosen Elitist. Now it appears the people, starting with the young who have the most to lose, are rising up and beginning to take back what belongs to them. I’ve waited a long time to see this develop. Actually, I was beginning to have doubts that I would see it in my lifetime. What surprises me is that it started in Tunisia. And is now in Egypt, Yemen, and spreading to Lebanon, Jordan, and maybe even Saudi Arabia. Before it’s all over, I’m sure the list will grow. People have long memories. Consequently, with the growing movement will come the increasing isolation to this country and Israel.
The common working men and women around the world are literally fighting for their lives and the survival of their families as they begin put down these corrupt elitist regimes. Even in this country the Elite ruling class behind Barack Obama are ratcheting up or increasing the looting and solidifying their hold on arbitrary police power to try stave of the Middle Class working people’s push-back that is surely coming. The irony in all of this is that these Ronald Reagan Elitists thought that they had finally won – totally dominating and controlling this country’s masses and all of their money and property. A good example of what drives these people, as reported, is that Mubarak’s reason for not speaking to the people was, “[T]hat he doesn’t want to bestow any kind of—any kind of legitimacy or credibility on the uprisings going on by stooping to discuss it.” This is the same attitude all of these Elitist regimes demonstrate and enforce on the general population. It is the fundamental root cause why there is NO communication, or possible way to work out anything peacefully.
We see the Obama administration working across all venue’s to instil fear in the minds of people in a way never experienced in America. What told me the story in Egypt was when I heard that the “fear barrier” was broken. That condition is contagious and the dominoes are beginning to fall.
January 28, 2011 at 2:38 pm
Plain Jane
I listened to Hannity for a few minutes today as he bloviated about the protests. He made rude noises when playing a clip of Gibbs’ press conference and then talked in circles about the “devil you know v the devil you don’t” and moaned that we haven’t drilled our way to energy independence, blamed Obama, blamed Hilary Clinton and then I turned him off.
January 28, 2011 at 3:12 pm
ED Denson
I’m not decided about Egypt, Tunisa, and Yemen. Crowds in the streets always take me back to the 60s, and again to the end of communist rule in Eastern Europe. But I’m not sure what rough beast, its time come at last, is slouching towards Bethlehem in these crowds. I wouldn’t be surprised if it turned out to be fundamentalist governments that get installed, and it is difficult to see that as a gain for human rights. So I’m on watch and wait mode, hoping especially for the women of those countries that we are not seeing their governments sink into the darkness of state sponsored repression of women.
January 28, 2011 at 3:33 pm
Sally
Mubarek has just announced that he’s “dismissed” his government, and will announce a “new one” on Saturday.
January 28, 2011 at 4:38 pm
Random Guy
plain jane…honestly…I’ve read enough of your posts…you seem very aware and intelligent. Why do you pay attention to that shit? Fox news sarah palin bullshit garbage? It’s mental junkfood…perpetuates bulemic blogging…blah blah barf up crap that means nothing…very bad for you! WHY?!?!? Before you deny it, your post @ 2:38 did nothing but plug “hannity”, who I know very little about, but does belong to that whole celebrity party political scene. Again…why?? A sincere question…what’s your degree of awareness of their intent to carve a niche in your brain in just such a way?
January 28, 2011 at 4:48 pm
Joe Blow
Ed says: “I wouldn’t be surprised if it turned out to be fundamentalist governments that get installed, and it is difficult to see that as a gain for human rights.”
I wouldn’t be surprised either. This time it isn’t the religious people that are driving this movement. Everyone knows what’s happened in and to Iran. Fundamentalist Religion, in these Islamic countries has failed the people at the root cause just like they have in this country. In fact in America religion has promoted and exploited the common men and women into believing the big lie that this elitist system serves them as wannabe Elitist. If the women of this world want their legitimate rights as a valuable individual, they they are going to have to stand side by side with their men and fight for that right. No one is going to give it to them.
January 28, 2011 at 5:29 pm
PAN
Hopefully the people of Egypt will learn from the mistakes of the Iranian Revolution and not let the Islamic fundamentalist hijack their movement and enslave them anew. Best wishes to the courageous protesters. I was there a few years back the grinding poverty and despair was impossible to miss.
Sally, hope your Mom gets home safe and soon.
January 28, 2011 at 6:25 pm
Plain Jane
I like to know what the other side is talking about, Random Guy. Tuning in for a few minutes to find out isn’t likely to carve a niche in my socialist to the stem brain. Eric raised the question of where Sean Hannity is on this issue and I responded with what I had heard today. Since you say you have read my posts, it’s odd that you feel the need to lecture me as if I would take anything Fox or their echo chamber have to say.
January 28, 2011 at 6:31 pm
Plain Jane
These are certainly pivotal times in the Middle East but which way they will pivot is concerning. I hope that the people who are throwing off the oppression of corrupt governments will not exchange them for the oppression of corrupt religionists, but in the end – it’s their country.
January 28, 2011 at 6:40 pm
Sally
@ ED and Joe Blow: Egypt is hardly a great place for women, now! I, too, hope Egypt does not end up under Sharia Law, but it’s not like Sadat or Mubarek have improved the lot of women. Yes, they are “allowed” to work, but they do so at a fraction of the wages paid to men for the same job. I am hopeful, because the protests are more or less secular. Young and old, male and female, poor and middle class, students and uneducated, calling for basic freedoms, democracy, etc. They are chanting “Down with Mubarek”, not “Allah Akbar”. I don’t see an ayatollah waiting in the wings…. ElBaradei perhaps.
January 28, 2011 at 6:42 pm
Sally
@ Plain Jane – I also check in to the blogs, websites, and “news” programs of the rabid right, now and then. Trying to gain an understanding of those who disagree with you is a good thing, in my humble opinion.
January 28, 2011 at 7:44 pm
Random Guy
Plain Jane…please believe that I’m not lecturing you. If I were, there’d be no question marks and a lot more french. I’m simply stating where I’m coming from.
bla bla bla…is what it is. I spent a long time studying blogs exclusively of “the other side”…and Fox news isn’t related to them at all. Check it out for yourself. Real human beings on “the other side” aren’t quoting “hannity” or “palin”. The “other side” is real human beings like you and me, basically believing in different means to the same end. This isn’t a lecture either…my point is/was, it’s bullshit…and my question is, to what degree are you aware of it. Might I add that your defensive attitude is related? Palin is bullshit. Hannity is bullshit. Fox is bullshit. Everybody knows it, but you participate. Even the daily show is bullshit (albeit funny as hell sometimes, IMO). They feed eachother, and have nothing to do with real life. They’re celebrities. They want you to talk about them. They want you to think that’s what the “other side” is thinking. It creates a divide among the people. “They” are one and the same…po[pular media, fueled by corporate giants.
Anyway, I’m fully faded and falling deeper into the abstract…that’s all.
January 28, 2011 at 8:08 pm
Random Guy
laskdjflasj…remember the Red Scare? McCarthy? I don’t, I wasn’t even born then…but I gone done learnt about it in hah-skoo. Everybody paranoid about the reds, blacklists, all that jazz. What if the interwebz existed back then? What if you were around back then? What would you say?: The new Red Scare is people vs. people., fueled by media…just the same…why perpetuate that BULLSHIT.
BUUULLLLSHIIIIT. MEANWHILE: no rain in january in Humboldt. SLEEEEP!!!
January 28, 2011 at 8:19 pm
Plain Jane
Where do you think a large portion of the “other side” get their views, Random? You have to know what they think and why they think it to effectively counter it. Ignoring the propaganda that millions of regular people think is fact is one reason the right has gained so much power. You and I may not take anything these clowns say seriously; but in case you haven’t noticed, many millions of people think they are today’s version of Walter Cronkite.
January 28, 2011 at 8:26 pm
tra
“Fundamentalist Religion, in these Islamic countries has failed the people at the root cause just like they have in this country”
I agree 100%. Yet that failure only seems to strengthen the “faith” of Fundamenalist True Believers both here and abroad. At least that’s been the story so far.
January 28, 2011 at 8:38 pm
Random Guy
wha tis it, Jane, that “our side” believes in? Who are “our side’s” media spokespersons? THAT’S NOT WHAT INTELLIGENT PEOPLE THINK!!! Intelligent people are behind the cameras, writing AP releases and presidential speeches!!
January 28, 2011 at 8:42 pm
Random Guy
intelligent people introduce the world to the word” insurgent”…never before used by the masses to describe “terrorists” to see who and how often it appears in blogs and the media. Intelligent people fueled the “red scare”. Intelligent people got you to plug “hannity” and “palin” on blogs,l and further the divide among real human beings whop should know better. This is a lecture.
January 28, 2011 at 9:09 pm
Bolithio
Yet that failure only seems to strengthen the “faith” of Fundamenalist True Believers both here and abroad.
Why does it seem like we are wired for division? While American polarity seems like a petty comparison to say, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the common thread we see in these stories is often blind faith. Is the ugly truth that it may be in our nature to cling to set of beliefs and fight to the death?
January 28, 2011 at 9:15 pm
tra
HuffPo reporting that Mubarak dismisses his cabinet, but won’t step down. Meanwhile protesters defy curfew and protests continue to proliferate, with demands for Mubarak to resign a key demand of those who have taken over the streets.
I can’t imagine that the protesters are going to change their minds and willingly accept a new Mubarak-appointed government. It looks like Mubarak is going to have to either crack down or step down, and it’s not clear that he’s capable of succeeding in the former.
January 28, 2011 at 9:52 pm
Plain Jane
I heard today that some law enforcement are removing their uniforms and joining the protests. Mubarak is probably stalling to get his wealth out of Egypt before he flees. I hope he doesn’t come here.
January 29, 2011 at 8:20 am
Dave Kirby
The only really organized opposition in Egypt is the Muslim Brotherhood. They are a conservative Islamic movement that has been around since the 20s and have a presence throughout the Muslim world. They are banned in Egypt but persist. They do not condone violence with the exception of their mortal enemies, the Syrian Baathists. The uprising seems to consist of many groups not just Islamists. I do know that in areas like the city of Suez unrest has been fomenting for a long time. Jobless youth there have been particularly angry with the fact that the government has been pumping money into the Red Sea resorts of the south so as to attract more foreign tourist dollars while ignoring their plight.
January 29, 2011 at 8:51 am
Joel Mielke
“I’m not decided about Egypt, Tunisa, and Yemen.”
I imagine that few care what Ed Denson thinks of developments in the Arab middle east.
January 29, 2011 at 9:20 am
Erasmus
I, for one, care what ED Denson has to say, and I wouldn’t mind reading Joel Mielke’s perspective.
January 29, 2011 at 10:31 am
tra
I imagine that few care what any of us thinks of development in the Arab middle east. Not sure why you’re picking on Ed.
January 29, 2011 at 11:28 am
the real mitch
Sally,
Like others, I hope your mother is safe, and I hope you will let those looking at this thread know when and if she is safely out of Egypt.
January 29, 2011 at 1:13 pm
Joel Mielke
I’m “picking on Ed” because his comment is so vacuous.
I apologize to Erasmus, because my perspective probably wouldn’t be useful. I’ve paid attention to the Middle East since the mid ’80s, but I’m less informed about Egypt than other Arab countries. Reading Al Jazeera would help one to avoid making ignorant generalizations like Mr. Denson’s, and one could do much worse than to keep up with the observations of Juan Cole.
January 29, 2011 at 1:46 pm
tra
Juan Cole’s website actually provides exactly what the name promises: “Infomed Comment.” Thanks for reminding me to check in there for his take on the situation in Egypt.
Today, he begins his post with
“Gen. Hosni Mubarak’s response to a mass uprising demanding an end to military rule in Egypt?
He appoints the former head of Egyptian military intelligence (Omar Suleiman) his vice president (and therefore likely successor).
He appoints the Air Force Chief of Staff (Ahmad Shafiq) as prime minister.
Can you spell TONE DEAF?”
January 29, 2011 at 1:50 pm
Joel Mielke
Juan Cole never fails to point out obvious things that I hadn’t considered, and history that I was ignorant of.
January 29, 2011 at 3:16 pm
Joe Blow
This was the rest of his comment:
“Meanwhile, crowds in the streets in Cairo, Suez, Mansoura, Alexandria into the night, defying curfew. Police fired on demonstrators in Alexandria & around the Ministry of Interior building in Cairo, some reports say 100 have died in the past few days. Army mostly not intervening in either demonstrations or looting, decline of security. Police absent altogether. Neighborhood militias being thrown up to guard against thieves, burglars, rapists invading. Light looting of Egyptian museum halted by patriotic crowd joining hands, then army came in there. Some say Mubarak ordered police to stay home and give middle classes a taste of what life is like without the law and order he provides. Don’t know if it is true. If so, would indicate attempt to play on class anxieties and to cast the uprising as a mob of greedy slum dwellers.”
Change the names and locations and you can get a taste of what’s coming. He also offers the reason behind the revolution. I highlighted it in bold. That’s what Mubarak and his Elitist wealthy supporters think of the whole general population in Egypt, “a mob of greedy slum dwellers.” No different than in this country. Ever try to talk one-on-one as an equal to a politically connected bureaucrat, a judge, a lawyer, police officer, a doctor, county supervisor, city clerk? — You get the point.
January 29, 2011 at 3:30 pm
Joel Mielke
Don’t stop there, Joe Blow. There are so many interesting posts. Also, on Al Jazeera’s English language site, the “in depth” tab often leads to a better grasp on events.
January 29, 2011 at 3:30 pm
Joe Blow
The next universal condition I was looking for was for the general populace to transition into a total state of “anger” or “rage.” This is what happens when the the police use a heavy hand. Once the fear is gone and everyone is in a “rage” look what happens to the fearless police. They’re like that fearless, snarling little dog, they’ve got a fearless heart, but their feet just won’t stand.
Here’s the AP News link: Egypt’s uprising unites society in rage.
January 29, 2011 at 3:52 pm
Joe Blow
Here is a link I’ve had up today from McClatchy that really explains the thinking. Remove Mubarak and Egypt from the equation and replace them with the Ruling American Elite, represented by the sitting U.S. government and America and you have the exact same situation. Who cares about the massive looting, home and property foreclosures, health-care, and the elderly thrown into the streets for good measure. We can’t have those terrorist “liberals” taking over. “In Mubarak’s mind, it is far better to let a few individuals suffer than risk chaos for society as a whole.” [U.S. Ambassador to Egypt Margaret Scobey]
January 29, 2011 at 3:57 pm
Joe Blow
Eric, I think the Gremlins have invaded your blog! I checked you on Internet Explorer and Chrome and it’s all italics. Maybe its just the earth tipping?
January 29, 2011 at 4:08 pm
Joel Mielke
At least it’s not all caps.
January 29, 2011 at 4:10 pm
Random Guy
I care what Ted Danson has to say about why they’re rioting…
http://tinyurl.com/497tbqq
January 29, 2011 at 4:11 pm
Random Guy
Howzabout somebody do an expose on which local blogs are networked? Who’s running the show and how?
January 29, 2011 at 4:58 pm
misc,
Go right ahead Random Guy,I for one would to see it!
January 29, 2011 at 4:58 pm
misc,
love
January 29, 2011 at 5:26 pm
Joel Mielke
Good link, Random Guy. On that note, a friend of mine calls plastic grocery bags “the Egyptian national bird.”
January 29, 2011 at 6:07 pm
Mitch
J
January 29, 2011 at 6:09 pm
tra
Joe,
It looks like you forgot to put in a tag to close the italics in your 3:16 comment.
January 29, 2011 at 6:30 pm
Plain Jane
It seems to be the Mexican national bird too. They’re a scourge.
January 29, 2011 at 7:27 pm
ED Denson
Looting at the Egyptian museum reported to be “light” – pictures show several gilded statues from the King Tut tomb snatched, and reports are that the heads were torn off of two mummies. The claim is that the looters were caught before they could get away, and that some of the demonstrators protected the museum until the army got there. In some ways there is no crime against humanity worse than the destruction of artifacts from the long past. (I know, I know, mass murder is worse) because there is no restoration of these items to us. Remember the Buddha statues the Taliban blew up? And the looting of the Baghdad museum while the US was in charge? Anyone upsetting the order that protects these things should be careful to preserve them. I hope the penalties imposed on the looters are harsh, and given wide publicity. Maybe the UN should send troops in when street riots start?
January 29, 2011 at 7:40 pm
Sally
My mom is still stranded at Cairo airport. They flew in to Cairo yesterday from another Egyptian airport, but were unable to go to a hotel, because of the curfew. Her original flight out of the country (to Frankfurt) was canceled. She is supposed to get a flight to Munich tomorrow. I should get an update around midnight.
January 29, 2011 at 8:42 pm
Tooby Park free meal
Sorry, thought I would ask, does anybody know about a free meal being served at Tooby Park? It was in this past weeks paper. Again sorry, sounded like a cool thing to do.
http://www.redwoodtimes.com/ci_17207239?source=most_viewed
January 29, 2011 at 10:08 pm
Joel Mielke
Thanks for the further insight, Mr. Denson, but it’s unlikely that Mubarak shares your enthusiasm for antiquities.
January 29, 2011 at 10:24 pm
Eric Kirk
There’s a piece in Dissent by Mark Engler with some thoughts, including his questioning of the utility of US aid to regimes like Egypt’s.
http://www.dissentmagazine.org/atw.php?id=362
First, the situation in Egypt is helpful in making clear how U.S. foreign aid functions. In international development circles, there’s a debate about whether foreign aid actually works. On the political scene, a variety of doubters, especially those on the right, rail against corruption, mismanagement, and dependency—arguing that aid sent abroad is a giant liberal boondoggle.
But a huge percentage of U.S. foreign aid is not meant to ease poverty or foster humane development, nor is it backed by any progressive intention. Rather, it is given out basically in the form of bribes to various regimes so that they will align themselves with U.S. geopolitical interests. As Juan Cole further notes in his Democracy Now interview, a large amount of aid money meant for foreign countries actually serves to subsidize U.S. corporations, which are contracted to produce goods or services (or armaments or farm surplus) that are then sent abroad. The actual utility of these things for aid recipients is questionable, and any benefits to the poor in recipient countries are at best indirect.
Aid to the Egyptian government is a nice case in point. Even though it is notoriously undemocratic, the Mubarak regime has for decades received a massive amount of U.S. aid, both military and non-military. We’re talking billions of dollars per year, regularly placing Egypt just behind Israel on lists of top recipients. But the United States has no incentive to demand any sort of accountability for the aid. On the contrary, our leaders have incentives to use aid flows as pork for our corporations and to allow the Egyptian government to siphon off the remaining largess however it wishes. An attitude of permissiveness makes the aid all the more effective as a means of ingratiation.
January 29, 2011 at 10:28 pm
Eric Kirk
Sally, I think your mother will be fine. So far I haven’t seen anything directed at westerners as the protesters are pretty well occupied with their own government and contrary to the Fox reports, this may be a democratic rather than fundamentalist revolution. From my link above:
Yes, there are extraordinary moments when public demonstrations take on a mass character and people who would otherwise not have dreamed of taking part in an uprising rush onto the streets. But these protests are typically built upon years of organizing and preparation on the part of social movements.
I haven’t seen great backgrounders out yet detailing movement activity in Egypt and Tunisia, but there have been some signs of foresight and preparation. In Cairo, for example, polished manuals have been passed from hand-to-hand among protesters, serving as guidebooks for action:
Anonymous leaflets circulating in Cairo also provide practical and tactical advice for mass demonstrations, confronting riot police, and besieging and taking control of government offices.
Signed “long live Egypt”, the slickly produced 26-page document calls on demonstrators to begin with peaceful protests, carrying roses but no banners, and march on official buildings while persuading policemen and soldiers to join their ranks.
But I’ll feel much better when you let us know she’s in Germany.
January 29, 2011 at 10:48 pm
Sally
Thanks, Eric. I think she is safe, too. I’m getting the same hit you are, about the situation. It’s sort of funny that Mom thought her biggest challenge on her trip would be the camel ride, because she was worried about being able to navigate the hike through deep sand, at the age of 81.
January 29, 2011 at 11:09 pm
Random Guy
Wow, Ed, you’re a real humanitarian. Let’s say I live in a peasant suburb of egypt and they happen to have internet and I’ve been blogging for 20 years. My first blogs two decades ago start out like…
“so…garbage is starting to pile up around here, and there’s less and less work since the US is industrializing surrounding nations after bombing them. Food is scarce, but I can still sell potatoes.”
about five years later, it’s more like…
“What’s going on people?!?!? The garbage isn’t going away, it’s all modern world crap dumped on us and people are starting to get sick! I have to fight my neighbors for anything to recycle so I can have money to buy clean water! HELP!!!”
another five years later…
“WHAT THE FUCK!@??! My whole neighborhood has been actively protesting the situation for over a decade and nothing is being done! I’ve lost two relatives to polution related sickness!!! FUCKING WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!!”
…and of course other bloggers get on my case saying things like “well if you’re going to use THAT kind of language, don’t be surprised nobody’s helping you!” and five more years go by and the blog posts start to look like…
“WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON!!! THE STREETS ARE PILED TWO STORIES WITH GARBAGE AND HUMAN WASTE!!! PEOPLE ARE DYING AND WALKING ARUOND WITH OPEN WOUNDS, NOBODY IS DOING ANYTHING< THE UNITED STATES CONTINUES TO OPEN BUSINESSES IN THE CITY AND NOTHING IS FUCKING BEING DONE!!!"
and that point I get kicked off the blog for having attitude after being told that I should be dealing with the problem in a civil manner instead, despite solid years of protesting to the first world's powers, who don't give a shit. Their corporate product packaging and the people who can afford the products are allowing everybody to just die slowly in their waste.
So….here's Ed….in his comfy living room 10,000 miles away, with electricity and hot water on demand, and a fridge full of food, blogging that he just can't make up his mind what to think about the whole matter of these riots and everything that the news is telling him about why they're going on…but he does firmly conclude a little while later that the people who stole the golden statues and valuable artifacts from the museums should be PUNISHED PUNISHED PUNISHED so that we first worlders can bask in their brilliance and marvel at all that is our glorious fortune to not be buried in cities made of garbage and eating pig shit to survive…like the families of the people who most likely stole them.
Buddha doesn't give a SHIT about statues of him.
January 30, 2011 at 8:42 am
moviedad
It really brings it all home when your loved ones are involved.
January 30, 2011 at 8:44 am
Joel Mielke
In his defense, Randon Guy, Mr. Denson is just exercising his god-given right as an American to opine about things he knows little about.
As for foreign aid, there’s a lot of truth to the old saw that “foreign aid is where you take money from the poor people in a rich country and give it to the rich people in a poor country.” And, as Eric pointed out, foreign aid is also, largely a method of providing US government support to US corporations (not the least of which would be to weapons manufacturers).
January 30, 2011 at 10:10 am
Anonymous
Joel you continue to be such an AH ! But I really couldn’t expect more. And insite to worked politics by Ed Denson, wow !
If you want to do some research on the overall situation do it on “the Muslim Brotherhood” ! Any way you look at it you will be better informed about the significance of the current state of affairs in Eygpt.
30 years is too long to be the ruler of a country. What about North Korea ?
January 30, 2011 at 10:14 am
Joel Mielke
I’ll just assume that Anonymous is not a native English speaker.
January 30, 2011 at 10:37 am
Erasmus
I really don’t understand the venom directed at ED Denson’s comments, which seem unexceptionable to me. And “Random Guy”s vociferation, when looked at closely (the last thing screamers want), reveals a fatal flaw in his “argument” (yes, I’m using the word very loosely) —- “solid years of protesting to the first world’s powers.” Hmmm — perhaps after our misbegotten venture into Iraq, our botched intervention in Afghanistan, the Bay of Pigs, etc. , it would be wiser to direct protests to entities closer to home (the Egyptian government might be a suitable choice). Yes, I know that the American government is to blame for most of the world’s ills, but since so much of the world sees us not as the solution but as the source of its misery (we’re a very convenient scapegoat) why address complaints in our direction? Not very logical — but then logic is the least of “Random Guy”‘s concerns. — And I don’t give a damn whether Buddha cares about his statues. We humans have a right and a duty to safeguard our collective memory. As Faulkner said, the past isn’t even past. And as Oscar Wilde put it: “One’s past is what one is.” (This applies collectively also.)
January 30, 2011 at 11:22 am
suzy blah blah
There’s nothing more terrifying than having your mummy’s head stolen by a spontaneous youth.
January 30, 2011 at 12:32 pm
Joel Mielke
Venom?
January 30, 2011 at 12:59 pm
ED Denson
“Thanks for the further insight, Mr. Denson, but it’s unlikely that Mubarak shares your enthusiasm for antiquities.” -JM
It doesn’t matter whether Mubarak shares my enthusiasm. Fortunately the Egyptian army does, as well as a number of the Egyptian people who protected the museum after the first looters got in. The contents of the museum are the property, and the heritage, of all of humanity, and the pride of Egypt. They have financial value to Egyptians in the present as museum pieces, and their historic value can not be overstated. RG argues that people being poor justifies looting the museum. I disagree.
As for Buddha, one teaching is that each of us has Buddha nature, in which case Buddha, as embodied in me, is concerned about the destruction of the statues by the Taliban. If that teaching is incorrect, then I am not Buddha, he is dead, and I oppose vandalism and the destruction of art that is hundreds if not thousands of years old because of transient interpretation of religious doctrine, whether the statues be of Buddha or not.
As for the Muslim Brotherhood, they have come out in support of El Baradei, for the moment. I imagine they have a reasonable chance of getting voted in to power if any election occurs. If that happens it will not be a good thing. None of this means that I support Mubarak, I really don’t care whether he remains in power or not. I support freedom, and I am hopeful that the outcome of this turmoil is a freer society in Egypt. I am fearful that it will not be. Hence, I don’t yet know how to feel about the current situation.
January 30, 2011 at 1:15 pm
Joel Mielke
Mr. Denson’s “feelings about the current situation” are irrelevant, especially in light of his evident ignorance about Egypt.
January 30, 2011 at 1:19 pm
tra
Well, here’s what El Baradei has to say about the Muslim Brotherhood:
http://thinkprogress.org/2011/01/30/oppostion-leader-elbaradei-threat-of-muslim-brotherhood-is-a-myth-lacking-one-iota-of-reality/
January 30, 2011 at 1:24 pm
suzy blah blah
The buddha embodied in ED is concerned –LOL!.
January 30, 2011 at 2:16 pm
Joel Mielke
And thanks for the levity, Suzy. The mummy’s head comment was perfect.
January 30, 2011 at 2:18 pm
moviedad
Buddha boom, Buddha bing; forget about it.
January 30, 2011 at 2:31 pm
the real mitch
I was talking with the Buddha just yesterday, and ED is correct. The Buddha’s normally-reliable equanimity was shattered by the destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhas. Buddha told me, and I quote, “those Islamic neanderthals ought to have their heads handed to them on a platter of Bodhi tree wood.”
Don’t worry, I offered to share a bowl with her and she calmed right down.
Still, I agree with the Buddha that someone ought to put Mohammed’s picture in a cartoon. That would show ‘em.
January 30, 2011 at 2:54 pm
Not A Native
I hope the Egyptian populace gets a new order and it doesn’t comprise burgers with secret sauce.
The ‘Arab Street’ is popularized here to be much more significant expression of public sentiment than a ‘demonstration’ or ‘riot’ in Western countries. Sarkozy could implement work rule changes in France despite massive street protests. Clearly, a similar display in an Arab country has very different implications. One thing sure stands out. Western communications technology has done more to promote the idea of individual liberty than armaments and propaganda.
January 30, 2011 at 3:05 pm
Plain Jane
Especially the armaments for the very dictators who are denying them liberty.
January 30, 2011 at 3:48 pm
Joel Mielke
I don’t understand why Mr. Denson’s goofy conflation of the Taliban and the Egyptian public gets any further discussion.
January 30, 2011 at 3:53 pm
Not A Native
A valid rationale for supplying armaments is to permit a Nation to defend itself from dominating control by force from another Nation. That promotes National self determination, a component of individual liberty.
Whatever happens in Egypt in the near future, the armaments there now will still be there and under control of whatever authority is in place. My point is that while protection from foreign domination does help promote individual liberty, the ability of the populace to communicate has been proven to be a much larger help.
January 30, 2011 at 4:07 pm
Not A Native
Lawyers are trained to regard ‘the mob’ as always being a loathsome and barbaric process to obtain justice as opposed to ‘rule of law’ administered by those who have been graduated by law schools.
Some lawyers are more persuaded by their training than others are. Those who earn comfortable livings from their trade are more likely to find evil in every extrajudicial act.
January 30, 2011 at 4:14 pm
Eric Kirk
True enough. Lawyers have also read about Maximilien Robespierre, and watched what happened in Iran circa 1979 and afterward.
January 30, 2011 at 4:44 pm
Not A Native
Ah yes, but what interpretations do lawyers accrue from reading the justice meted through due process accorded to Dred Scott, Alfred Dreyfus, and Guantanamo detainees(to cite just a very few that pop into my limited mind)?
Was a viewing of ‘Judgement at Nuremberg’ required to instill affirmation that the US judiciary stands apart as a bastion of objectivity and fairness, ala Hollywood? Regardless of any wisdom it may have, a judiciary is a powerful minority and powerful minorities are well known to have a propensity to subjugate majorities.
January 30, 2011 at 6:35 pm
Sally
Mom is still at the Cairo airport. Day three.
January 30, 2011 at 6:37 pm
Eric Kirk
Are planes flying in and out at all Sally?
I know it must be nerve-wracking, but I’m sure she’ll be fine.
January 30, 2011 at 6:42 pm
Anonymous
Mr. Mielke, I’ve gone back over the comments here to see what I’ve posted that you disagree with. I first said I was concerned that a fundamentalist government might be the outcome in Egypt (and Yemen and Tunisia). You found “ignorant generalizations” in that post. I wasn’t aware of making any generalizations at all. What is it that you know about Egypt that I don’t? What have I posted that is factually incorrect? Are you sure you are reading my posts carefully enough?
If you do know something about Egypt that I don’t, let me know. All I know is what I read in the papers (and what little I saw during my brief visit to Cairo which included a visit to the museum. I saw those objects that were broken by the looters.) I’m not posting to get your goat, and certainly would not like to display ignorance of easily available or commonly known facts.
January 30, 2011 at 8:03 pm
Sally
@ Eric – most flights going in have been canceled, thus no planes arriving with debarking passengers, which would normally be boarded by people leaving. Mom’s tour company has been really good about calling me several times a day to keep me posted. About 10 minutes ago, I got a call saying they might have secured a flight to Tel Aviv. Hey! I just got confirmation; she’s in the air, bound for Tel Aviv, where a comfortable hotel room awaits. After resting, her group is scheduled to fly to Frankfurt, then SFO, then Arcata. Hooray!
January 30, 2011 at 8:07 pm
Random Guy
Erasmus, I didn’t know I was being…what’s the word you wrote…I have to scroll up a second to reread it…it starts with a “V”. Fergeddit. I’m not angry, or frothing, or whatever. Isn’t this all just blog talk? Are you somehow into this more than that? IF I TYPE ALL CAPS, DOES IT MAKE THE VOICE IN YOUR HEAD LOUDER? (now I’m whispering in parenthesis…) What’s my internet voice sound like? Have you assigned me a deep raspy mobster voice? that might be kinda cool.
But if you ever think I’m angry or “frothing” (a popular one on blogs) maybe give me the voice of Pee Wee Herman or something to bring things back to reality.
The riots in egypt are very interesting to me, as are what people are saying (blaaarrging) about the whole scene. When it comes to riots, what would it take to get ME to do something like that? Risk getting shot, beaten to death, mauled, or in the very least imprisoned for a very long time if not for the rest of my life. It would have to be for reasons a whole lot more grave than just not liking the president or losing my job. The media’s throwing this watered down version of reality at us so blatantly it’s disgusting.
January 30, 2011 at 8:07 pm
Eric Kirk
I’m glad to hear it Sally.
January 30, 2011 at 8:13 pm
Sally
Thanks, Eric!
January 30, 2011 at 8:27 pm
Eric Kirk
Well, I look forward to hearing her stories. How many people go on vacation and get to see a revolution erupt right in front of their eyes? And this one could potentially transform politics across the globe.
January 30, 2011 at 8:39 pm
Joel Mielke
“What is it that you know about Egypt that I don’t?”
Wouldn’t it be simpler Mr. Denson, if you told us everything you about Egypt? You conflate something the Taliban did with the crowds in Egypt, but you weren’t “aware of making any generalizations at all.” I’m sorry Mr. Denson, but I consider idle speculation like, “I wouldn’t be surprised if it turned out to be fundamentalist governments that get installed,” to be a generalization. It’s the sort of goofball conclusion that TV commentators leap to.
“All I know is what I read in the papers…” That’s a real problem, but you could do something about.
January 30, 2011 at 8:41 pm
Joel Mielke
correction: “know about Egypt…”
January 30, 2011 at 8:49 pm
Anonymous
This is what I know about Egypt.
January 30, 2011 at 8:50 pm
Sally
@ Eric – I’ve ended up in Central America on a few occasions, during “interesting times” – such as during the Noriega drama, and right after the civil war “peace accords” were signed in Guatemala. At the time, I thought I was witnessing history, but in retrospect, it all has unfolded over the years as “politics as usual”. I, too, am very anxious to hear my mother’s tales! But I also wonder what will be happening a week, a month, or a year from now, in Egypt.
January 30, 2011 at 8:56 pm
Eric Kirk
I do think that the Sandinista revolution transformed Latin America politics, but the Sandinistas’ most revolutionary act was to willingly give up power once they lost an election. That was something Lenin was not willing to do.
But this looks like something that the secular opposition has been ready for. It won’t bring utopia, but it may very well bring the Islamic world into political modernity. And this may have been the pivotal moment, whatever happens in the short term. Notice there aren’t many burning American flags nor Obama effigies, if any. It may be that the right person was in office at the proper moment this time.
January 30, 2011 at 9:24 pm
Sally
@ Eric – yes, I’ve noticed the absence of “anti-Americanism”. This is not like the Iran hostage situation in 1979. I’ve seen reports about thousands of protesters on the streets in Egypt, and for every person yelling “Allah Akbar” there seem to be 50 more yelling back “Muslims, Christians; we are all Egyptians!” This really seems to be a populist movement, and I’m hoping it is a movement no extremist group is able to co-opt.
January 30, 2011 at 9:28 pm
Random Guy
If Buddha comes to you with advice…do as you wish. Buddha will not come to you, let alone tell you what to do.
Ed, you made zero correlation between what you describe as one of the greatest crimes against humanity and the humans involved, other than calling for their merciless punishment. That’s pretty stupid in my book.
January 30, 2011 at 9:40 pm
Ed Denson
Mr. Meilke, would you be surprised if a fundamentalist government emerged in Egypt?
The Muslim Brotherhood, according to the press, are the largest and best organized opposition group in the country. The press has quoted them, and no other opposition parties, on their plans for the future. Mubarak suppressed them because they were a danger to his rule. Are they, in fact, not an important factor in the future of Egypt?
I urge you, once again, to read my posts carefully, as you are mistating what I have said. And I urge you, once again, to state your position and reasons for it, on the happenings in Egypt. What do you know about Egypt that I need to understand to form an accurate prediction of the future there? Do you support the uprising? Why? Do you believe a non-fundamentalist government is likely? Why? Do you agree with Random Guy that poverty excuses looting the museum? Why?
January 30, 2011 at 10:01 pm
Sally
With all due respect to all, I must admit I’m more worried about my mom right now. Perhaps I’ll be ready to talk politics later in the week.
January 31, 2011 at 7:12 am
Joel Mielke
Mr. Denson wants me to engage him in a pointless guessing game about the character of the government that would replace our “strategic partner” in Egypt, and he doesn’t seem to understand any of my criticisms of his daft contributions to this thread. If he were truly interested in Egypt he could follow the link I posted, or go to Al Jazeera, rather than continue to read his “papers.”
It’s not incumbent upon me, Mr. Denson, to record what I’ve read about Egyptian politics and culture over the years, you are the one wringing your hands about fundamentalists and the tragedy of missing artifacts.
You, like so many Americans, feel compelled to express an opinion, no matter how ignorant you are. And yes, you’re expressing an opinion by simply asking the irrelevant, vapid questions that you ask.
January 31, 2011 at 7:27 am
Plain Jane
Has your mom gotten out of Egypt yet, Sally? I read that the US was evacuating Americans.
January 31, 2011 at 8:45 am
Sally
@ Plain Jane – her travel company managed to secure a flight to Tel Aviv. Hopefully she is sleeping in a real bed right now!
January 31, 2011 at 9:04 am
Eric Kirk
Here’s an article and video clip on the evacuation of Americans. So far no reports of Americans being attacked, but there are reports of some demonstrators angry about US support of the regime. Still no flag burning.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/01/31/egypt.evacuations/index.html?hpt=C1
January 31, 2011 at 9:11 am
Joe Blow
Eric, You can dream.
“But this looks like something that the secular opposition has been ready for. It won’t bring utopia, but it may very well bring the Islamic world into political modernity. And this may have been the pivotal moment, whatever happens in the short term. Notice there aren’t many burning American flags nor Obama effigies, if any. It may be that the right person was in office at the proper moment this time.”
What’s driving this revolution totally eludes you. The reason you don’t understand what’s going on, based upon your quoted statement, is because you in your own way in this country are part and party to that reason. This is the beginning of the end of the World Ruling Elite, their puppet authoritarian, dictatorial governments and all of their collaborators and internal conspirators that have conspired to loot, devalue and dominate to control mankind. This revolution has taken on a life of it’s own and is moving too fast for any of these governments to get a handle on it. It really doesn’t matter whether or not America, Israel or the European Union supports Mubarak or not. 30 years support for Mubarak speaks for itself.
January 31, 2011 at 9:24 am
Random Guy
Ed, what does king tut mean to a family born and living in complete destitute? Other than a ticket out of eating boiled garbage stew if they could get ahold of some of some of his golden trinkets. Those people can’t even afford admission into the museum to begin with. It’s a state of mind…twisted affiliation…that plagues this country as well, dividing the homeless and the “working class” when really everybody’s the same kind of human being.
January 31, 2011 at 9:26 am
Eric Kirk
Ed, what does king tut mean to a family born and living in complete destitute?
I don’t know. It could mean a whole lot. I think it’s a mistake to assume that poor people don’t appreciate their nation’s history and pride. Quite often, the poor are the most patriotic of the social classes.
This is the beginning of the end of the World Ruling Elite
Oh is that what it is?
January 31, 2011 at 9:31 am
Random Guy
Well I’ll take a wild guess what they think knowing that the collective institute that upholds such things as the glory of “King” tut and the likes has not only given the poor of that nation the middle finger, but dumped its toxic waste into their drinking water for over a lifetime, showing no signs of slowing down. If YOU were living in that situation, or even living there knowing within the year you’d likely find yourself completely broke and hungry, you’d probably grab what you could if the opportunity presented itself as well.
January 31, 2011 at 10:08 am
Plain Jane
Dinner’s ready! We’re having stewed mummy head!
January 31, 2011 at 10:16 am
Eric Kirk
RG – that’s one wild guess. I would take another that the majority of Egyptians do take pride in their history, regardless of their personal circumstances. One of the greatest failings of the left has been to constantly underestimate the power of nationalism, which probably plays off of the social instincts which resulted in the formation of clans and tribes, which enabled the species to survive despite being slow, weak, and highly susceptible to sharp teeth.
January 31, 2011 at 10:37 am
Random Guy
Are you serious with all that? Really, are you fucking kidding me with what you just wrote? Never mind, mang. Have a nice day.
Lookout! it’s a mummy! RUUUN!!! wait, we can just walk, in fact I’m gonna finish this bag of Funyuns first…. http://tinyurl.com/4zh4evg
January 31, 2011 at 10:43 am
Eric Kirk
Another satisfied customer!
January 31, 2011 at 10:44 am
Random Guy
Come see the wonders of ancient egypt! Children under 4 admitted for free!
http://tinyurl.com/4agu2ll
January 31, 2011 at 11:37 am
Joe Blow
“Oh is that what it is?”
Tell you what, hotshot, after another couple of these despotic governments are brought down you can come ask to apologize.
When the report is that what happened in both Tunisia and Egypt was “spontaneous,” and that it is a revolution demanding the basic rights of self-determination and legitimacy – where their government actually listens and responds to them and not look down on them as some mob of worthless rabble wanting what they have no right to, people like you really should worry about that never-ending smart-mouth reaction.
January 31, 2011 at 11:56 am
suzy blah blah
Suzy won’t be happy til everyone on earth is enabled to an xtra double McMummy burger, aged to perfection, with fries and a large diet coke for lunch at the museum.
January 31, 2011 at 12:06 pm
Joe Blow
Suzy reminds me of my cat. Every time I raise my voice she comes purring up a storm and rubbing on my leg. Time to lower the volume. Thanks Suzy.
January 31, 2011 at 12:24 pm
suzy blah blah
wow! — Joe’s Cat ! omgosh! I am sooooo honored. I don’t mean to blow my horn or anything, but that’s at least as high as Gabriel or Michael, or King Tut, or the sphinx’s slouching son coming again all over Bethlehem, or something.
January 31, 2011 at 3:46 pm
Eric Kirk
A very remarkable moment. Rep Gary Ackerman is calling for Mubarak to step down and for the cessation of US aid until he does. Ackerman is strongly pro-Israel with ties to AIPAC.
http://ackerman.house.gov/index.cfm?sectionid=254&parentid=4§iontree=4,254&itemid=1539
January 31, 2011 at 4:24 pm
Andy Stunich
Not hard for me to know where this is going. I wrote the following in June 2009: There is an extremely dangerous fallacy gaining strength in intellectual circles. It is the fallacy that democracy can save the Islamic World from its tyrants and deprivations and, in turn, save the non Islamic World from Islamic terrorism.
However, the belief that democracy is an instant panacea for all that ails the Islamic World is specious at best. Most of the Islamic World is not ready for democracy and the call for and push for democracy or increased popular control over governments via the election process will further destabilize many countries that are already at risk of being lost to Islamists. Egypt seems to be the focus of many experts’ arguments that democratization will advance peace efforts. However, democracy would most likley result in more Islamist control in Egypt and will do nothing to accomplish peace. Consider that Anwar Sadat, for example, made a cold peace with Israel despite the strong opposition of most of Egyptian society. If he faced popular elections, he never could have or would have been able to make peace.
It is pointless to free people to elect their leaders when they remain enslaved in their minds to an ideology and belief system that will simply mean that instead of Islamists gaining control through subversive means, they will simply gain control via elections. Democracy and elections will no more bring improved conditions to most of the Islamic World and peace than it did to the Gaza Strip where Hamas, a violent terrorist group, won elections in 2006 and then proceeded to shell Israel with hundreds of rockets.
It is unrealistic to expect democracy to bring any better results in those parts of the Islamic World, like Egypt, wherein autocratic governments maintain some control over well established and deeply entrenched Islamist groups like the Muslim Brotherhood. Democracy will no more bring peace and social justice to Egypt than it would to a maximum security prison.
There is a strong belief in Western democracies that the principle of “one person one vote” should control the selection of governments. However, in Egypt that principle would probably translate to “one man one vote” and it would be a literal application in the sense that once an Islamist party gained control, any further elections would occur solely to give a veneer of legitimacy to Islamist control and, thereafter, the election process would have no real chance of removing Islamists from power. Consequently, “one vote” would literally mean, at best, one true vote and, thereafter, relatively meaningless elections of the type seen in Iran.
The word “democracy” derives from Greek words meaning “government of the people.” In Greek, “demos” means people, and “cratos” means government. It follows that democracy will accomplish nothing more than to make the will of the people the dominant force in the land. If the will of the people is controlled by Islam, that means that Islam will control. It is that simple.
All the push for democracy will accomplish in Egypt is to potentially cause the same catastrophe to occur in Egypt as occurred in Iran. I see great similarities between pre-revolutionary Iran and modern Egypt. Hosni Mubarak exhibits many of the same qualities as the Shah of Iran – both good and bad. Both men allied themselves with the United States and both men tried to modernize their countries. They both experienced their strongest opposition from Islamist elements. Some of their tyrannical behavior is or was necessitated by the ruthless nature of their Islamist opponents.
Before democracy can be successfully implemented in places like Egypt, the influence of Islam on the Egyptian people must be considerably diminished and firmly held in check. That will only occur by complete domination and control of Egyptian society and the slow dampening and reduction of the influence of Islam over time. That process would require control of the media, entertainment industry, education system, and Mosques until decades of education eliminated pervasive Islamic control over the beliefs and cultural values of the people. However, such an approach is presently beyond even the power or will of the Egyptian government. Consequently, not only has no progress been made against Islam’s influence in Egypt equivalent to the type of progress Kemal Ataturk imposed on Turkey, the opposite is true. The flow of money from Saudi Arabia has allowed Islamic orthodoxy to spread and Egypt has been losing ground, not gaining ground against Islamic influence.
I suspect that Egypt will eventually be lost to Islamic fundamentalists anyway unless something dramatic, such as Kemalist reforms, are imposed to change the course the country is on. Democratic elections will hasten Egypt’s demise and preclude any possibility of a strong miltary keeping the Islamists at bay while reforms, many of which would be initially unpopular, are imposed that will decrease Islam’s influence on the culture.
The Muslim Brotherhood, albeit its members running for election as “independents,” has already made inroads into Egypt’s government via elections and expanding democracy will simply hasten the Brotherhood’s advances. People like Reza Aslan that teach that allowing groups like the Muslim Brotherhood into the election process causes them to become more moderate is deception at its worse. The Muslim Brotherhood simply acts more moderate to gain ground, but it has no intention of abandoning its true agenda when it has the power to impose it.
One of the most important principles about Islam that non Muslims need to understand is that Muhammad, the man that Reza Azlan professes to believe was the Prophet and Messenger of Allah, said that war is deception. That is hardly a startling statement as most cultures have understood that warfare involves the use of deception. However, Muhammad’s adoption of the principle has far greater implications in Islamic culture. In Islamic doctrine, war has a much broader meaning than in Western culture. Islamic doctrine and belief divides humanity into two opposing spheres: Dar al-Islam, House of Islam where Islam rules and Dar el Harb, the House of War against non-Muslims. Islam teaches that it is Muslims’ duty to spread the influence of Islam by almost any means. It follows that Islamic fundamentalists use deception as a matter of course to advance their Islamist agenda whenever and wherever they can. The principle is instilled into them as a result of their religious belief. They are taught from birth that Muhammad must be obeyed and that his life set a beautiful pattern of conduct for anyone to follow. For Islamists, deception utilized to advance their cause is not only pragmatic, but a way to show their devotion to Muhammad and Allah and to fight so that Islam will be superior. Muhammad himself used deception to great advantage and it is beyond foolish to not expect any Muslim who, since birth, has repeatedly said and heard that “there is no God but Allah and Muhammad was his Prophet” to try and follow Muhammad’s example to the extent of his or her knowledge about Muhammad’s life.
The Ayatollah Khomeini skillfully used deception to gain power in Iran by fraudulently promising democracy and initially working in concert with non Muslim groups, but he ultimately delivered far worse tyranny than the Shah as soon as his grip on power allowed him to do so. Because they were ignorant about Islam, gullible Westerners accepted Ayatollah Khomeini’s false claims. His efforts were supported by ignorant Westerners that failed to realize that while the Shah was terribly flawed, working with the Shah to reform Iranian society was the answer and supporting his overthrow simply brought even greater tyranny to both Iran and the World.
I see the same mistake or tactic developing all over again. It is true that history repeats itself. I see President Obama, moderate and highly educated Middle East experts like Bernard Lewis, and left-wing Islamic apologists like Reza Aslan all calling for democracy in the Middle East. A philosopher once said “beware the desires of thy youth for you may acquire it with age.” President Obama and these experts better be careful for they may well get what they advocate for; however, they may well regret it.
It is understandable that people that live in functional democracies want to see the benefits of democracy spread to the rest of the World. However, with respect to the Islamic World, we need to have the wisdom and courage to understand just how pernicious of an influence Islam is and to mitigate that influence before trying to implement democracy in places like Egypt. I fear that false perceptions of and ignorance about the true nature of Islam will cause many to inadvertently advance radical Islam’s grip on the Middle East with devastating consequences throughout the World. I feel compelled to note that I am giving Reza Aslan the benefit of the doubt here that he is mistaken and simply not implementing a strategy from the Ayatollah’s play book, but to be candid, I am not sure as to his motivations. I have read his books and I believe that he is extremely deceptive in his analysis of Islam.
The only way we can protect ourselves in the long-run and protect those moderate Muslims who truly want to live in peace with non-Muslims is to slowly erase Islam’s influence. Nothing else will work. I have yet to see any other model successfully used to ease Islam’s grip on a culture other than the approach utilized by Kemal Ataturk in Turkey. However, the Turks are increasingly losing their way as the memory of Kemal Ataturk fades over time and the revival of fundamentalist Islam stalks the World. Even in Islamic countries like Turkey that have in the past gained ground toward modernity and freedom, the influence of Islam continues to cause problems and hinder advancement and wherever Islam holds sway over people’s minds they remain enslaved to one degree or another and they will never know true freedom, true democracy, or peace until they free themselves from Islam’s pernicious grip.
It follows that we will never be completely safe from Islamic terrorism and Muslims will never be free until, as Winston Churchill phrased it, “the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.”
January 31, 2011 at 4:57 pm
Eric Kirk
I’ll read and respond later Andy, but among the Islamic nations Egypt is one of the more “western-influenced” and probably has the social capacity for a Euro-style, or at least a Turkey-style parliamentary democracy. And I don’t think anybody sees an “instant panacea” here, but simply a turning point in history.
January 31, 2011 at 5:00 pm
Plain Jane
Does Andy Stunich realize what an imperialist bigot he appears to be?
January 31, 2011 at 5:07 pm
Joel Mielke
Mr. Stunich like to type a lot. I wish that he actually knew a lot.
January 31, 2011 at 5:30 pm
tra
It’s looking more and more like Mubarek will have no choice but to step down, most likely in the next few days. With the Egyptian army calling the protesters’ grieveances “legitimate,” and promising not to interfere with peaceful protests, Mubarek’s security police just vastly outnumbered and overwhelmed, calls for his resignation proliferating around the world, including even U.S. elected officials, it’s hard to see how Mubarak can continue to pretend that he is in control of the situation. Simply put, he’s not.
At best, Mubarek may still be able to influence the transition of power — who it gets handed over to, how and when — but the longer he tries to hold onto the little power he has left, the less influence he will have as he heads out the door.
Unfortunately, he hasn’t thrown in the towel just yet, and is still trying to use what remains of his levers of power to try to supress tomorrow’s marches. Egypt’s last ISP has been taken down, cell phone service is being cut off, and all train service for tomorrow is being cancelled. But it looks like all of this has come too late for Mubarek, the word is out and tomorrow’s protests are expected to draw hundreds of thousands, maybe even a million or more people, into the streets of Cairo.
And of course these communications and transportation shutdowns leave the nation paralyzed and in a state of crisis, further eroding whatever slim shred of legitimacy Mubarek’s regime is clinging to. How long can they shut down the internet, all the cell phones, the transportation network, and have a curfew (which plenty of people are ignoring anyway) and still try to function as an economy and as a nation-state? Not long, I would think. These are last-ditch efforts, and Mubarek is in his last ditch.
Here’s a great source for on-the-ground breaking news on the situation in Egypt:
http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2011/1/29/sharif_kouddous_reporting_live_from_cairo_egypt
January 31, 2011 at 5:38 pm
tra
Mr. Stunich,
You say: “However, the belief that democracy is an instant panacea for all that ails the Islamic World is specious at best.”
You’re flailing wildly at a straw man. Nobody is claiming that democracy is a panacea, much less an instant one. Just that it is better than autocracy, monarchy, theocracy or any other form of dictatorship. Care to argue that point?
January 31, 2011 at 5:57 pm
tra
“…the influence of Islam on the Egyptian people must be considerably diminished and firmly held in check. That will only occur by complete domination and control of Egyptian society and the slow dampening and reduction of the influence of Islam over time. That process would require control of the media, entertainment industry, education system, and Mosques until decades of education eliminated pervasive Islamic control over the beliefs and cultural values of the people.”
You don’t suppose that kind of approach might backfire wildly? Ever heard the parable of the “forbidden fruit?”
The Soviets tried this approach of trying to “dominate and control” every aspect of their society to stamp out all disfavored beliefs and practices. It’s what we call “totalitarianism.”
Didn’t work out so well for Soviets, partly because all the repression only served to convince the populace that the forbidden beliefs and practices must be awfully sweet, if convincing them they were not required so much work.
January 31, 2011 at 6:47 pm
Joel Mielke
TRA read the Stunich post with the sincere belief that Stunich had bothered to think for himself and post his own thoughts. I’ve had sufficient experience with Mr. Stunich to know better.
I think that Mr. Stunich owes TRA an apology.
January 31, 2011 at 7:02 pm
tra
I should have known better than to try to engage in a rational dicussion with someone like Mr. Stunich, who seems to think that the failing authoritarian regime like Egypt should actually double-down in it’s level of repression by going for full-blown totalitarianism.
This approach is so utterly irrational as to call into question the sanity of anyone so deluded as to advocate for such a thing.
January 31, 2011 at 7:11 pm
Joel Mielke
Like so many true believers and ideologues, Stunich frequents sites that exclusively post horse-shit that confirms his loopy beliefs.
January 31, 2011 at 10:57 pm
Sally
My last update this afternoon confirmed that my mom scored a flight out of Cairo, to Tel Aviv. She got to sleep in an actual bed, and later this evening, she should be on a flight to Frankfurt, and then, to SFO. I won’t really believe it until I speak with her tour company tomorrow… but in my heart, I am hoping to meet her at our local airport tomorrow afternoon! ♥
February 1, 2011 at 5:31 am
Plain Jane
Good news, Sally. Hope you were able to get a good nights sleep as well.
February 1, 2011 at 6:41 am
moviedad
Agree with him or not, Mr. Stunich’s view of things is perfectly in line with the thinking of the majority of people in our government, and the governments of the corporatized world.
Yes, if Islamic countries get to vote, they will vote for their religious leaders. But why should we expect less? They are dealing with countries like ours who only value money. Family, health, education, are all a bad joke to corporate America. We have made their lives and their land a nightmare for peaceful people. So they are no longer peaceful.
Any rational and sane individual in that part of the world with a family to support, can’t help but fight Israel and the US. We are the thieves of the world. We have stolen their Antiquities. We have stolen their future.
It’s really the same ol’ story. They can have democracy; as long as they vote the way we want them to.
This is only the beginning. The more that common people learn of the cheating, lying and robbery of the west, both past, present and future; the more they will overthrow their dictators. Not just in Egypt, but Jordan, Syria, Lybia, Sudan and eventually Saudi Arabia. And that will signal another true World War.
Not everyone is as easily propagandized and bought off as Americans are. All it takes here is to give one group the benefits of injustice, and they will betray their neighbors to the rich for a few crumbs off the rich-man’s plate. Go Palin! The ‘Traitors’ are with you! Protect us from Muslims who want education and universal health care for their children!
February 1, 2011 at 8:24 am
Joel Mielke
We’re not sure what (if) Mr. Stunich thinks, but we do know that he likes to cut and paste hyperbolic bullshit from anti-Islamic websites.
February 1, 2011 at 8:30 am
Eric Kirk
Over 200,000 peacefully protesting in Cairo, with protests in other cities as well. And what’s really interesting is the tone. There’s very little “death to….’s” or burning of flags or effigies, if any. The opposition is demanding that Mubarak leave the country. Part of this is because Egypt is a very well educated country, and the crackdowns have not been as bloody as other countries. Unlike the Shah, Mubarak has not run torture centers, at least not flagrantly. Part of it is very good organization on the part of some very savvy leadership. And part of it is probably out of respect for the military and authorities who despite some initial violent flare-ups have restrained themselves.
This may very well be a bonafide revolution which will not result in instant Utopia, but which permanently alters the political framework within the Middle East, and by which the rest of the world approaches it.
Obama and other leaders do have to worry a bit. To the extent that they support the opposition in Egypt, they are worried about the impact in other Muslim dictatorships with which they have cultivated relationships. and once these regimes sense that the US isn’t going to stand by them they could start cracking down in their own countries before the example spreads. I think the cautious tone taken by Obama and the leaders of other countries is actually very prudent, even if frustrating to the Egyptian opposition. Mubarak may be out before the weekend, but there are no guarantees. And there are 52 thousand Americans in the country.
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/news/2011/02/more_than_200000_in_cairo_demand_mubarak_quit.php?ref=fpb
February 1, 2011 at 9:03 am
Joel Mielke
“Peacefully protesting”? That’s terrible! Mr. Denson will have nothing to wring his hands over, and Mr. Stunich’s terrifying scenarios will just look nutty.
February 1, 2011 at 9:07 am
Erasmus
Last year the Pew Research Center conducted a survey of global attitudes toward religion and found that 84% of Egyptians favor the death penalty for someone who abandons Islam. Perhaps (contra Andy Stunich) democracy is nonetheless the best option for Egypt — but I wouldn’t vilify him for his viewpoint, for it is unfortunately not unreasonable. —– Moviedad displays a heightened sense of Western guilt. The roots of the self-criticism that underlies our civilization (at its best) can be found in the Hebrew Bible: in what other ancient text are there so many castigations of one tribe — one’s own? Where are the Assyrian or Babylonian counterparts to Amos, and where else can we read lamentations comparable to Job’s? Do universities in Saudi Arabia or Syria instruct their students in the crimes of their civilization? Are Egyptian students told (a la Howard Zinn) that their history is a chronicle of oppression of the common people? Moviedad has learned well the lessons of modern post-colonialist pedagogy, and I applaud his refusal to swallow the “America first” ideology that dominated our textbooks before the 1970s. The world will be a safer place once his attitude spreads to other countries. When that happens, the Mideast will stop blaming Israel and the West for the bulk of its problems, and they will laugh at the notion that we have “stolen their future,” as if they have been helpless victims throughout their long history.
February 1, 2011 at 9:07 am
Eric Kirk
On Friday my copy of the New Yorker arrived. One of the first stories was about the Tunisian revolution, which is obviously out of the limelight right now. The issue was obviously sent to press before matters heated up in Egypt. The following passage was semi-prophetic, although the “trend lines” remark suggest that something was already in the news and maybe the author simply didn’t want to get distracted with Egypt.
The objections to pushing democratic reform in the Arab world are by now familiar: it may create instability; it may empower Islamist parties; it may open more space for Iranian mischief by empowering Shiite minorities; it can undermine a legitimate opposition group by making its members appear beholden to Western ideas; and it may deprive the United States and Europe of reliable partners in counterterrorism. Yet the corrosive effects of political and economic exclusion in the region cannot be sustained—among them the legions of pent-up, angry young men, Islamist and otherwise.
President Obama has been cautious about democracy promotion. The Bush Administration proceeded similarly during its chastened second term. A 2008 cable from the WikiLeaks Tunisia file unctuously describes a “warm and open” meeting between the assistant secretary of state, David Welch, and President Ben Ali, during which the dictator deployed a tried-and-true strategy, cultivating Washington’s allegiance by pledging “total” coöperation on counterterrorism, “without inhibitions.” Ben Ali also offered some free analysis: “He opined that the situation in Egypt is ‘explosive,’ ” a note-taker recorded, “adding that sooner or later the Muslim Brotherhood would take over” in Cairo. “He added that Yemen and Saudi Arabia are also facing real problems. Overall, the region is ‘explosive.’ ” Psychologists might call this projection, but Ben Ali had the trend lines right.
Read more http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2011/01/31/110131taco_talk_coll#ixzz1CjBmy2OV
February 1, 2011 at 9:22 am
Random Guy
Erasmus, we read moviedad’s comment differently. I see it as being, and agree that it’s not to do with affiliation of practical beliefs, but literal activity of specific enterprises such as international contractors, political pools, etc. A corporate conglomerate operating in egypt consists of many different believers operating under one logo, and ultimately the symbol of currency.
Put simply, the poor people of egypt are getting royally screwed by the growing division of wealth, and it’s no surprise…and nothing new…that all major media outlets are only focusing on political rule over practical action. To say they need “democracy” is as meaningless as saying the poor of america need even more “democracy”. If ghetto ass egypt was fifty miles from where you lived and growing, and your future was starting to look more like theirs, you might find yourself up in arms too.
February 1, 2011 at 9:50 am
Eric Kirk
I’ve changed the title of the thread because the old one is no longer applicable. The early clashes have been replaced by an orderly, focused, and for the moment peaceful popular revolt. Hopefully it remains that way long enough for Mubarak to grab his money and skip town.
The decision was also prompted by instructions I received from my masters at Democracy Now this morning. Come the revolution in this country I don’t want to be beheaded or sent to reeducation camp for past defiance of the will of then Minister of Truth Amy Goodman. She reports a million marchers in Cairo. The truth has been posted.
Of course, I am gambling on the one faction. If our favorite hippie ever comes to power, I will be in trouble for suggesting that anything good can come from mob rule.
http://tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/ann-coulters-expertise-on-mobs-and-liberals-finds-nothing-good-in-egyptian-protests-video.php?ref=fpb
February 1, 2011 at 9:58 am
Random Guy
Wow, erik. I guess they cleaned up all that garbage and implemented services and education for the poor overnight. Give it a month, it’ll be out of sight out of mind….again.
February 1, 2011 at 10:03 am
Random Guy
In what ways would you say NPR has changed since the 80′s? Besides corporate backing…
NPR and Democracy Now has become the flipside’s fluff. Sure sure, they’re “good people” with “strong beliefs” and amy goodman “knows her shit” but it’s all news feeds and deadlines and covering what they’re being fed.
February 1, 2011 at 10:20 am
Random Guy
click Media Monopoly on the right and scroll down a bit…
http://www.scienceparameter.com/museum/Media-Map.htm#Corporate_Media_Ownership
food for thought.
February 1, 2011 at 10:22 am
Eric Kirk
Democracy Now is not NPR affiliated. It’s independently syndicated. It used to be Pacifica affiliated, but they broke off several years ago. In any case, I do think she can be tedious in terms of a specific ideological bent in her coverage, but she is fair to her guests and she does cover stories and aspects of stories the mainstream media misses. There again, so does Fox News and CBN.
And this whole thing in Egypt could explode or make a turn for the worse. But maybe it won’t. At the moment, there’s good cause for hope.
February 1, 2011 at 10:42 am
Eric Kirk
I’ve inserted a photo from this morning into the main post. I’ve been maintaining this thread in lieu of a new one because I wanted to maintain the continuity of discussion, but I’ll probably start a new one with the next major news development.
February 1, 2011 at 10:57 am
Joe Blow
Eric,
I am always amazed at how people that believe they are governed by “free will,” open-minded and free-thinkers are so enslaved to their own beliefs. I know you really believe what you say, you continue to repeat it as if it is the god’s-gospel truth. That’s why people like you are so easily enslaved and betrayed. For your sake, you’d better hope what you believe is true. Unfortunately, your commentary gives you away – or I should say “proves your truth.” I’m talking about this posting, “Over 200,000 peacefully protesting in Cairo …” If anyone wants to see a very striking comparison to Eric’s beliefs, read what TPN reports that this person believes.
Changing the name of this thread is typical of where you are and where the American Elite are: WAY TOO LATE.
Actually, you couldn’t even get the title right. What’s going on is NOT an “uprising.” It is a REVOLUTION.
February 1, 2011 at 11:03 am
tra
Reports of today’s mass protests include crowd estimates of up to two million protesters in and around Tahrir Square in Cairo today.
Imagine what that would look like in Washinton DC, if the same proportion of Americans turned out for a mass protest on the Mall!
I don’t have the figures at my fingertips, but Egypt is somewhere in the range of 80 million people, the U.S. about 310 million. So if the same proportion of Americans turned out for a mass protest in DC, it would be nearly 8 million protesters. I believe that would dwarf any mass protest in U.S. history, even on a per-capita basis.
Mubarak’s got to be on his way out.
February 1, 2011 at 11:56 am
tra
Various sources are now reporting that Mubarak will announce today that he won’t run in the next election in September.
I doubt that will be enough to placate the protesters. They’re likely to keep up the pressure until Mubarek steps down entirely. Nor do I think the protesters will be satisfied with having the Mubarak-appointed Vice President lead the government through the fall elections.
I expect to see continued pressure for the reigns of power to be handed over to a transitional government until the next elections, and perhaps demands that the election date be moved up so that Egyptians don’t have to wait too long to get an actual elected leader.
February 1, 2011 at 12:00 pm
tra
More insight from Juan Cole’s blog, Informed Comment:
http://www.juancole.com/
February 1, 2011 at 12:20 pm
Eric Kirk
It is an exciting moment TRA. Let’s hope it stays on track. I think it’s likely that Mubarak will be out of the country by the weekend, but sometimes power is stubborn.
February 1, 2011 at 12:23 pm
Andy Stunich
Tra, if you read what i wrote, you will see that I already argued the point. My argument is a nutshell is that Egypt needs a Kemal Attaturk like figure to rule the country and impose reforms limiting the power and influence of Islam on the country and that democracy will achieve nothing in Egypt until Islam’s influence is controlled and held in check.
February 1, 2011 at 12:33 pm
Andy Stunich
The Founders of American democracy stated that it was meant for a moral people and would not work but for that one principle. Their version of moral was based upon Judeo-Christian morality as they saw it. Islamic morality is completely different. Islam’s moral code is predicated upon imitating Muhammad’s life and following his commands. Islam has no equivalent of “do unto others as you would have them do to you.” In Islam, it is due unto others as Muhammad did and commanded. It follows that the Islamic world is not ready for democracy by the words of our own founders. Do you really want democracy in a country where the overwhelming majority wants to wipe out Israel? What do you think the end result will be when Israel is eventually isolated and attacked once again? How will this sought after democratic government stop from having an anti-Israel policy when at least 80% of the country wants to see the Jews driven into the Mediterranean Sea?
February 1, 2011 at 12:36 pm
Andy Stunich
Amazing Erik. You seem to think that the fall of the Egyptian government is a good thing. I assure you that you are unwittingly rooting for the Muslim Brotherhood to gain power.
February 1, 2011 at 1:20 pm
Dave Kirby
Though the Muslim Brotherhood will play a part in any new government in Egypt I can’t see Egypt becoming a new Iranian style theocracy. Egypt has a long secular tradition and a professional military establishment that, in my opinion, would not tolerate an Islamist regime. This goes back to at least Nasser who was a pan Arab nationalist/socialist. I do think that Israel has reason to be nervous as nothing is certain about the attitude of any new regime and an Egyptian military that once relied on Russian hand me downs has a good amount of modern U.S. weapons.
February 1, 2011 at 2:24 pm
Eric Kirk
Andy – I do think it’s a good thing, but more importantly I think it’s an inevitable thing. It’s in the natural course of human events that dictatorships are overthrown, and our reliance on them for long term policy considerations has always been folly, as we should have learned from Iran in 1979. Obviously Obama has to hedge his bets so as to avoid antagonizing the side which ultimately prevails, but sooner or later he’s going to have to bite the bullet and make a choice.
I’m on a deadline project right now Andy, but as we discussed I’ll post your piece (yes Joel, he did write it) onto the main page for discussion. Obviously you and I have sociological disagreements over the impact of ideology on societal behavior, as well as whether passages in a religious text automatically command literal adherence from the majority of the population. I think Muslims with modern education are just as capable of putting passages into historical context… anyway, I’m getting drawn in and I have work to do. Look for your post tonight.
By the way, on the crackdown on the Internet, this is from TMP.
Great conversation between Indian writer Parvez Sharma and an Egyptian friend named Omar.
M: Hey Omar…you know that there many tweets coming in saying he is going to shut down everything tonight…whatever little internet was left and mobiles and landlines even?
O: Fuck the internet! I have not seen it since Thursday and I am not missing it. I don’t need it. No one in Tahrir Square needs it. No one in Suez needs it or in Alex…Go tell Mubarak that the peoples revolution does not his damn internet!
February 1, 2011 at 2:34 pm
Plain Jane
Andy gets called out on his bigotry and he doubles down. Those accursed Muslims just aren’t MORAL enough for democracy and they aren’t smart enough to get the golden rule. They need a dictator so Andy will feel safe. Is Andy smart enough to realize how immoral he sounds?
February 1, 2011 at 3:11 pm
Erasmus
I don’t wish to defend Andy Stunich — he is capable of eloquent self-defense. I do take exception to the reassurances that there exists a deep secular underpinning to Egyptian society. And I don’t mean to imply that they aren’t “moral” enough to follow a democratic path. But consider these findings: the Pew Research group found that 54% of Egyptians favor segregation of men and women in the workplace (not the best route to modernity, I’d say); Wikipedia tells me that 95% of Egyptian women (according to a 2005 study) had undergone some form of genital mutilation; of those who see a conflict between fundamentalism and modernity, 59% favor the fundies; and (according to Pew) a frightening 84% of respondents favor the death penalty for Muslim apostates. — Still feel optimistic about the revolution over there?
February 1, 2011 at 3:17 pm
tra
Andy,
You have called for a totalitarian leader who will have “complete domination and control of Egyptian society” and “control of the media, entertainment industry, education system, and Mosques.”
Aside from the obvious (im)morality of calling for this level of repression against the Egyptian populace, there are clearly some pretty serious practical risks in such a strategy. Chief among those risks is the possibility (in my view the liklihood) that a totalitarian crackdown would only further reduce the legitimacy of civil authority, and increase the degree to which the populace identifies with the Islamic extremists. Basically, you’d be fulfilling their claim that the West is out to destroy Islam.
If (when) the totalitarian crackdown fails, as it is virtually certain to do, the people who take over at that point would be much more likely to be supportive of violent Islamic extremism. And, as an added bonus, they would be taking over the apparatus of a totalitarian state. Won’t that be nifty?
But seriously, this discussion hardly matters (except as a demonstration of how extreme prejudice against groups you don’t understand can lead to extremely warped views, as is the case with Andy Stunich), because the Egyptian people simply aren’t going to let it happen.
February 1, 2011 at 3:36 pm
Plain Jane
What percent of western men have had genital mutilation, Tra?
February 1, 2011 at 3:39 pm
Andy Stunich
It is not immoral to undertake the type of control I propose. I only seek justifiable means to obtain justifiable ends. It is far more immoral to seek a change that will cause untold suffering to Coptic Christians and moderate Muslims in Egypt. As for your claim that i do not understand, that is just silly. Any time you want to play Middle East or knowledge of Islam trivial pursuit just let know when and where. It also not prejudice to want to eliminate an inherently unjust and warlike religion. You simply have a false understanding of the Islam Muhammad preached and practiced. If you understood the religion, you would realize that it is completely at odds with your liberal values. The tenets of Islam demand discriminatory treatment of women and non Muslims. To advocate for its preservation is to advocate for a long laundry list of values that are diametrically opposed to the values of liberals and conservative Americans alike. Muhammad said ” I am made victorious through terror. through terror the treasures of the world were placed in my hand.” No wonder so many fundamentalist Muslims engage in terrorism. Muhammad said women were intellectually and morally inferior to men and that most of hell’s occupants were women. No wonder women are so poorly treated in 56 of of 56 Islamic majority nations. By the way, these things that I say Muhammad said are taken directly from the most widely accepted and revered Hadith collections used in the Islamic world that were assembled by Muslim Islamic Scholars for Muslims.
February 1, 2011 at 3:52 pm
Plain Jane
I guess Andy’s version of the golden rule is “do unto others before they can do unto you.” Guess he isn’t moral enough for democracy either.
February 1, 2011 at 3:52 pm
Andy Stunich
I think you misunderstand me Erik. i have always been against any alliance with Egypt and the military aid to the country. I have problem with helping to feed them or helping non military economic involvement, but that is as far as I would have ever gone. I do not want to be allies with Egypt or to help Mubarak maintain power. My only point is that it is not in our interests or Egypt’s interest to undermine him either as neither Egyptians nor Non Egyptians will benefit other than Islamists. As for dictators falling, change always comes at varying paces. Hence, watching Egypt as I have for years and reading the accounts of expatriate Egyptians made it obvious to me that Egypt was going in the wrong direction. While dictators may fall, how they fall and the underlying ideology of the movement speaks volumes about the replacement government. Just compare the French and American revolutions. we got Founders that were wise and intelligent for their time. France got Robespierre. We both agree that Egypt needs change, but disagree as to how it should come about. Sadly, I think your visions will bring a “Robespierre” (Muslim Brotherhood) that will never be cast off by the Egyptian people for decades and perhaps centuries.
February 1, 2011 at 3:54 pm
Andy Stunich
Actually, it is very much do unto others as i would have them do unto me. I would rather live a lifetime under Mubarak than a week under the Muslim Brotherhood.
February 1, 2011 at 3:54 pm
tra
Erasmus,
Just 50 years ago, a large number of Americans supported segregation and the disenfranchisement of black voters, many opposed women being allowed into traditionally make-dominated fields, and so on. Fundamentalist Christianists were especially overrepresented among those with such retrograde views, their culture and religion told them that these were the appropriate positions, and changing these cultural norms seemed nearly impossible.
Today the number of Americans who support segregation and the disenfranchisement of black voters has shrunk to a pretty small universe of kooks and cranks, and even the most right-wing Fundamentalist types seem to be fine with the idea of having a woman in the highest office in the land (as long as it’s someone like Palin or Bachmann).
Somehow we accomplished this forward movement despite cultural norms to the contrary, and all without instituting a totalitarian regime or outlawing Fundamentalist Christianism.
That’s not to say that everything’s going to be peachy-keen in Egypt, immediately and forever after. Nobody’s claiming that. But in general, yes, I remain optimistic that this will prove to be a step forward in the development of democracy in Egypt. And, despite all the warts and imperfections of a democratic system, it still provides the best hope for an ongoing improvement in justice and human rights.
If the three choices are:
(1) The status quo — authoritarianism,
(2) Stunich’s “benevolent totalitarianism”, or
(3) The establishment of a broad-based, transitional government, leading to free and fair elections in the near future…
Well, I’ll happily choose #3, despite the uncertainty as to the long-term outcome.
Of course my choice doesn’t really matter — this is up to the Egyptians — but, yes, I’m glad that #1 seems to be an unlikely outcome, that they seem to be heading for #3, and that #2 does not appear to be an option being taken seriously by anyone other than Andy Stunich.
February 1, 2011 at 3:59 pm
Plain Jane
Andy’s challenging people to play Egyptian trivial pursuit using his bigoted sources as the authority. Is he so ignorant he can’t grasp the idea the some translations of the Quran are less accurate than others due to the agenda of the translator? Maybe he should be reminded of the status of women all over the world at the time of Muhammad, or even worse, the bible.
February 1, 2011 at 4:05 pm
Andy Stunich
America made such advancement on those issues because the discrimination was cultural but was not supported by the actual tenets of the majority religion and due to laws imposed and enforced by the federal government. Egypt needs those same type of laws and enforcement which is not possible if the majority of Egyptians have their say abut it. it is harder to achieve the same results in an Islamic majority country because the prejudices against women and non Muslims are actually mandated by the actual tenets of Islam that are built into Sharia Law. Also, Egyptian society has been greatly influenced by non Muslims and Arabian Gulf oil money. Your desire for “The establishment of a broad-based, transitional government, leading to free and fair elections in the near future” is not a possibility and if it does happen those free and fair elections will bring Islamists into power just as they did in the Gaza Strip. I remember leftists making the same arguments as you are for the Gazans and what did we get – the first freely elected terrorist group as the government, the shelling of Israel and war. As has been said before, insanity as the repeated doing of the same act over and over and expecting a different result. The Gazans are the same cultural and religion as the rest of Egyptian society. Now, we are going to get a different result because _______?
February 1, 2011 at 4:17 pm
tra
Just for the sake of argument, let’s assume that Andy’s fantasy of a totalitarian anti-Muslim regime in Egypt was a good idea.
How, exactly, would such a regime be put into place? Barring the existance of magic wands, it seems like this kind of regime could only be put into place by a massive invading foreign military force and long-term occupation.
Even assuming the (wildly unlikely) possibility that such an invasion and occupation was actually able to supress the practice of Islam in Egypt, there would still be the little problem of a massive popular backlash in other Muslim-majority countries, with many more Muslims becoming radicalized in the process.
So, then we would also have to have massive foreign invasions and occupations of ALL the Muslim-majority countries, with “benevolent” totalitarian anti-Muslim regimes installed and maintained in all of those other countries as well. Basically, a recipe for World War III. And Andy wonders why nobody takes him seriously?
February 1, 2011 at 4:18 pm
Plain Jane
Andy’s view of the Middle East is through glasses smeared by bigotry and imperialistic propaganda. It is impossible to remove what he thinks he knows and replace it with facts so I’m not wasting time reading any more of his sickening hate filled spew.
February 1, 2011 at 4:24 pm
tra
“… it is harder to achieve the same results in an Islamic majority country because the prejudices against women and non Muslims are actually mandated by the actual tenets of Islam…”
The bible-thumpers of the American South would have told you the same thing about the “tenets of Christianity.”
Don’t get me wrong, I’m no fan of fundamentalist Islam. But, as stated above, I think that the attempt to supress the Muslim religion entirely by establishing a totalitarian anti-Muslim dictatorship, would very likely produce the opposite of the moderation that you say you supprt. Forbidden fruit, backlash, etc.
February 1, 2011 at 4:25 pm
Andy Stunich
Well Plain Jane, most of the rest of the world advanced because its dominant religion did not mandate the discrimination. The Islamic world did not keep pace because its majority religion mandated the discrimination and dominates the culture to an extent that is hard for Westerners to fathom. Muhammad said “Islam cannot change.’ There are some minor variations in most translations of the Quran, but if read in classical Arabic the interpretation I give is crystal clear. That is why Arabs who are former Muslims such as Dr. Mark Gabriel, a former professor at Al Azhar University in Egypt, view Islam just as I do. The claim about Islam that you make are advanced by those who wish to deceive upon those that have never studied Islam for themselves. But the historical record proves that they are being deceptive. When the Qur’an, Hadiths, and Sira are studied together, it is obvious and beyond credible dispute that far from being a religion of peace, Islam is a fundamentally and inherently violent religion because Islam, alone among the World’s religions, commands believers to wage war against and subdue non-believers for mere disbelief. Nonetheless, Islamic apologists utilize a variety of deceitful arguments to try to deceive the gullible into ignoring Islamic doctrine that plainly reveals Islam’s true character. Let us take a new approach to resolving the controversy over “interpretation” by focusing on and presenting what one can learn about Islam through early, independent historical records. Do those records support the arguments made by critics of Islam or do they support the arguments made by Islamic apologists? It is a fascinating question.
The undisputed evidence reveals that the historical record clearly establishes that the arguments made by Islamic apologists constitute nothing more than deceitful rhetoric used to advance a deceptive portrayal of Islam.
The early historical record of Islam is well presented in a concisely written book titled “The Great Arab Conquests: How The Spread of Islam Changed The World We Live In” written by Hugh N. Kennedy, MA, PhD, a British historian and Professor of Arabic and History. Kennedy documents statements of early Muslim Jihadists that clearly reveal that Islam was a violent religion from its inception and a religion designed to and which did spread by force of arms.
An early eighth century Muslim Jihadist was documented making statements to a Sasanian King that reveal Islam’s true nature. Keep in mind that this Sasanian King would have been a Zoroastrian and, therefore, subject to the treatment outlined in verse 9:29 of the Qur’an. If critics of Islam are correct in their understanding of real Islam, one would, therefore, expect the early eighth century Jihadist to present his case in line with what appears to be the clear dictate of the Qur’an’s tribute verse (9:29) and that is exactly what history recorded. The Jihadist invited the Sasanian King to embrace Islam and warned him as follows:
“If you refuse, you must pay the tribute (jizya). This is bad thing but not as bad as the alternative; if you refuse to pay, it will be war. If you respond positively and embrace our religion, we will leave you with the Book of God [Qur'an]and teach you its contents. Provided that you govern according to the rules included in it, we shall leave your country and let you deal with its affairs as you please. If you protect yourself against us by paying the tribute, we will accept it from you and guarantee your safety. Otherwise we shall fight you.” (Quoted by Hugh Kennedy, The Great Arab Conquests, p. 51, citing Al-Numan b. al-Muqarrin; Tabari, Ta’rikh, I:2240.)
Note how all of the arguments presented by Islamic apologists fall apart upon review of the foregoing quote. This early Muslim Jihadist spoke classical Arabic so there can be no claim that he misunderstood Islam because he was reading a “translation” of the Qur’an. At that time it is doubtful that many, if any, translations of the Qur’an existed. There can also be no question that verse 9:29 of the Qur’an does not refer to defensive warfare or the rules for ending a defensive war as the Muslim Jihadist makes it clear that war will begin if the conditions are not met and the context makes it clear that he is not addressing a situation wherein the Muslims have been attacked and are trying to settle an existing, defensive war. Besides, the universally accepted historical record is that the early Muslims attacked the Sasanian Empire without provocation. Finally, the Jihadist’s bellicose statements makes it clear that nothing in Islamic doctrine modifies or softens the clear violent mandate of chapter nine of the Qur’an.
Since this is an early, eighth century event following relatively shortly after the death of Muhammad and the wars of apostacy, apologists who try to disingenuously claim that the Doctrine of Jihad as preached and practiced by terrorists worldwide stems from a response to the Crusades, Western Imperialism, or anything else other than, at least primarily, Islamic doctrine are patently proved wrong. As Mr. Kennedy accurately notes: “This was how Jihad was interpreted during the early eighth century, and probably before.” (Kennedy , p. 51)
Based on such clear evidence of how the first generation of Muslims understood Muhammad’s message, it is no surprise that prior to the age of political correctness and the attempt to whitewash Islamic doctrine for a gullible, Western audience, the dominant opinion of Islamic scholars was that the verses of the Qur’an advocating unrestricted warfare against non-Muslims was revealed later than the more moderate verses in the Qur’an and were clearly meant to supercede any prior contradictory verses. (Kennedy, p. 51; see also the Qur’an 16:101 – “When We substitute one revelation for another, – and God knows best what He reveals (in stages), – they say, “Thou art but a forger”: but most of them understand not;” and Qur’an 2:106 – “None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that God Hath power over all things?”)
In his Magnum Opus (great work), Kennedy, also uses early historical accounts to illustrate the religious motivation that drove the early Muslim expansion:
“The Muslims repeatedly stress that they are not interested in the affairs of this world; rather, it is the rewards of paradise that spur them on, as well as the belief that the Persian dead would not enjoy the same rewards: ?If you kill us, we will enter Paradise; if we kill you, you will enter the fire. Now we have come to you by the order of our Lord, fighting for his sake. We act upon his orders and seek the fulfillment of his promise.’” (Kennedy, p. 62, citing Tabari, Ta’rikh, I:2427-8.)
Another early Muslim Jihadist advised the Persian Court as follows:
“He [Allah] has sent us to bring His religion to all His creatures and to call them to Islam. Whoever accepts it from us will be safe and we shall leave him alone but whoever refuses we shall fight until we fulfill the promise of God.”
When asked what the promise of God was, the early Muslim Jihadist replied: “Paradise for him who dies fighting those who have refused to embrace Islam and victory for him who survives.” (Kennedy, p. 112.)
The next day another Muslim Jihadist was sent to the Persian Court and announced:
“If you embrace Islam, we will leave you alone, if you agree to pay the poll tax, we will protect you if you need our protection. Otherwise it is war.” (Kennedy, p. 113.)
As can be seen by the early historical sources quoting the first generation of Muslims, the candy-coated version of Islam spun by Islamic apologists is not only ridiculous in light of overall Islamic doctrine as established by the Qur’an, Hadiths and Sira, but Islamic apologists’ deceptive, fantasy interpretation of Islam also ignores the independent historical record documenting the first Muslims’ understanding of their religion. Nevertheless, many Islamic apologists get away with the most absurd and strained presentations of Islam that disingenuous minds can fabricate. Perhaps scholarly books such as Kennedy’s “The Great Arab Conquests” can help shine some light on some of the more flagrant frauds perpetrated on the public by so-called “experts.”
Back to the discrimination against women. It is beyond credible dispute that Islam is an inherently misogynist religion that has resulted in untold discrimination against women.
Muhammad taught that captured women were lawfully subject to slavery and rape by their male captors. Note that in the Quran the references to “those whom your right hands possess” is a euphemism for captives and slaves. Modernly, it is applied to non-Muslim women working for Muslims in Islamic countries. It is common to hear reports of workers in Islamic countries, especially Saudi Arabia, being raped by their male employers.
Islamic doctrine is no more enlightened with respect to Muslim women. Muhammad declared that women are intellectually inferior to men and that they comprise the majority of Hell’s occupants. One hadith records Muhammad as stating: “Women are naturally, morally and religiously defective.”
The Qur’an describes men as being above their wives, demands women’s obedience to their husbands, demands that women cover themselves, and states that their husbands may beat them. Muslim women are given less of an inheritance than men.
Modernly, probably the most terrible aspect of Islamic discrimination against women is that their testimony in court is considered to be worth only half that of a man’s testimony. This law, in addition to other aspects of Sharia Law, yields the terrible result that if a woman wants to prove that she was raped, then she must have solid evidence beyond her own testimony as the male rapist’s testimony is deemed to outweigh her testimony as a matter of law. Muslim women that are rape victims sometimes find themselves jailed or stoned to death for reporting rape given that since it cannot be proven, they have effectively admitted to adultery.
Anyone who tries to tell you that reading the Qur’an and Hadith in Arabic revels a softer Islam is not being honest with you just as Muhammad instructed his followers when dealing with non Muslims.
February 1, 2011 at 4:33 pm
Erasmus
To preserve whatever reputation for sanity and benevolence I have on this blog: I agree with tra.
February 1, 2011 at 4:34 pm
Andy Stunich
By the way Plain Jane, I only use tranaslations of the Qur’an that were written by devout Muslims.
February 1, 2011 at 4:35 pm
Plain Jane
I don’t know what bible you read, Andy, but you couldn’t BE more wrong. No where in the bible are women talked about as anything but property without any rights. It was our religious freedom that elevated the status of women, and people of color, not our religion. Do you need to be reminded that women weren’t granted the right to vote by our founders and didn’t achieve even that level of equality until the 20th century? Considering how long the Middle East has lived under dictatorships of one form or another, it shouldn’t be surprising to anyone with a friggin brain that they are behind the west in terms of feminism. However, there are Muslim countries where women have the right to vote, as they did in Iraq BEFORE the US invaded, for many years and they were granted that right in Egypt only 36 years after American women gained it.
February 1, 2011 at 4:39 pm
tra
Your desire for “The establishment of a broad-based, transitional government, leading to free and fair elections in the near future” is not a possibility….
At this point it’s looking like not just a possibility, but a liklihiood. Stay tuned.
“…and if it does happen those free and fair elections will bring Islamists into power…”
Not necessarily. I think a more likely outcome would be that the Islamists will win a sgnificant number of seats in the Parliament, but not the majority, nor the Presidency.
By the way, comparing the situation in Egypt to the situation in Gaza makes little sense. In Gaza, people had been living under Israeli military occupation for many years, and Israel had systematically attacked and weakened the PLO and the Palestinian Authority — the alternative to Hamas — throughout that time. The outcome was unfortunate, but hardly surprising, and certainly not generalizable to the situation in Egypt.
February 1, 2011 at 4:45 pm
ED Denson
Latest on the looting of archeological treasures during Egypt’s turmoil.
The National Geographic says that small museums and some archeological sites have experienced looting. “Young people” in Alexandria have banded together to protect the Library at Alexandria – site of an earlier catastrophic fire during an earlier time of instablity in the government. Somewhere also saw a report that Egyptian hospitals claim injured looters brought for treatment sometimes have police id cards (i.e. are policemen). No indication that police were involved at the Egyptian museum looting (or that they were not.) Also no indication as to whether looting ceased when the demonstations became more peaceful.
February 1, 2011 at 4:48 pm
Plain Jane
And for the record, women have the right to vote, be educated and work in Iran as well. In fact, the only countries in the entire world who don’t allow women to vote are Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates and Brunei. Dictatorships all.
February 1, 2011 at 4:52 pm
tra
I like how Andy gets all indignant about the Muslim conquests of bygone ages and I especially love his complaint that Islam spread “by force of arms.”
As if the Crusades never happened and the Conquistadors never existed. As if Christianity wasn’t spread throughout the world by “force of arms.”
As if Andy himself wasn’t advocating the use of “force of arms” to decide which religions should or shouldn’t be allowed.
News flash: If your “benevolent” totalitarian anti-Muslim dictatorship uses the “force of arms” to supress Islam, while not supressing Christianity, Judaism, and other religions, you’re still using the “force of arms” to promote certain religions. You’ve met the enemy — and he is you.
February 1, 2011 at 5:04 pm
tra
” In fact, the only countries in the entire world who don’t allow women to vote are Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates and Brunei. Dictatorships all.”
But you see, Jane, those dictatorships are merely garden-variety authoritarian, like Mubarek’s regime. Under Andy’s warped view, the answer would be to make them even MORE authoritarian, to the point of rabid totalitarianism. Then the benevolent totalitarian leader, let’s call him Big Brother, would set about re-educating the population and would rule them with an iron fist until such time as they had learned to love Big Brother, and rejected Islam as a religion just the way Big Brother told them to.
With that little detail accomplished, the totalitarian dictator would just cheerfully hand over power to an elected government (because totalitarian dictators are well-known for their willingness to cede power just at the point when they’ve achieved absolute control over their populace) and then, presto, human rights and justice will flourish. What could possibly go wrong with a simple, straighforward plan like that?
February 1, 2011 at 5:06 pm
Plain Jane
“Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.” (Numbers 31:17-18)
“However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.” Deuteronomy 20:16)
“Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.” Samuel 15:2-4
February 1, 2011 at 5:14 pm
moviedad
It’s true that Islam is written in the defensive. A really great biography of Mohamed written by George (?) Montgomery talks about what was happening around the time that Mohamed was writing the Surahs. He was besieged on all fronts. His own father in law was with the group trying to kill him. He started off by pissing off all the corporations of his day by declaring their use of fetishes and statues in worship of Jinns to be corrupt and evil. Kind of like Martin Luther. Except in Mohamed’s case, he had no credentials. One huge epiphany is all he needed.
I notice much of the X-tian bible is written in the defensive. This is what brings all the talk about war and killing unbelievers. I agree with that fact. The “Koran” is as hard to swallow as Leviticus. But hey, that’s their gig. That is their historical culture. So what if we don’t like it. Let them have their government. As soon as they invade Humboldt County, I’ll fight the Moorish ‘Basterds’ until then, they can do as they like. If the woman have to fight for their freedoms then we should support that. But for us to break in and steal a people’s oil, gold and water. and then mouth some platitudes about “Woman’s rights” is just plain bullsh*t.
The irony is not lost on me that should I find myself subject to their religious laws; I would be beheaded. But hey, that’s their gig. They’re Muslims, I’m American. And we are supposed to be leading by example.
February 1, 2011 at 5:20 pm
Plain Jane
You’re good, Tra. But I doubt Andy sees you as reasonable.
February 1, 2011 at 5:52 pm
Sally
My mom is now safely at her home in Fortuna. She is exhausted, and went straight to bed.
February 1, 2011 at 5:59 pm
Joel Mielke
If you’re bothering to read Mr. Stunich’s idiotic comments, you’re working harder than he is.
February 1, 2011 at 6:06 pm
tra
Hey, why worry about a little plagiarism when it’s in the service of advocating for the imposition of a benevolent totalitarian dictator? Means to an end, that’s all.
February 1, 2011 at 6:09 pm
tra
To be fair, the Islam-watch post is unsigned, so maybe that was Andy who posted it there originally? If so, it’s not plagiarism, it’s just somebody posting the same idiotic drivel in two different places, a year and a half apart.
February 1, 2011 at 6:22 pm
Joel Mielke
TRA means the Islam-watch posts.
February 1, 2011 at 6:24 pm
tra
Yup, putting the text of his other long-winded screed into Google, it takes you to another one of those Islam-watch posts, and yes, Andrew Stunich is listed as the author. The Google seach also reveals that he cuts and pastes those same rants all over the place. So, I withdraw any speculation about plagiarism — the words appear to be original to Andy, not that this is anything to be proud of.
The content on that Islam-watch website provides an interesting window into the echo-chamber of pseudo-intellectual, quasi-academic bigotry in which Andy operates. He’s hopelessly lost in his own dark prejudices and these prejudices are reinforced by the paranoid world-views of those around him, to the point where advocating for totalitarian dictatorship no longer generates the kind of cognitive dissonace that it produces in those who are still firmly connected to reality.
February 1, 2011 at 6:32 pm
Plain Jane
To be fair to Andy (though I hate to be) he did say in his first post on the thread, “Not hard for me to know where this is going. I wrote the following in June 2009:”
It’s not likely that anything is ever going to change his mind since his views are grounded in bigotry. That’s a lot harder to cure than ignorance.
February 1, 2011 at 6:51 pm
Joel Mielke
Could Mr. Stunich really have written such moronic, reactionary clap-trap? You insult him.
February 3, 2011 at 8:01 am
Joel Mielke
This is certainly the original work of Mr. Stunich, for who else could write such a lumbering, pedantic sentence as, “However, with respect to the Islamic World, we need to have the wisdom and courage to understand just how pernicious of an influence Islam is and to mitigate that influence before trying to implement democracy in places like Egypt.”
February 3, 2011 at 8:36 am
Plain Jane
That Fox video was sickening. “The opposition IS the Muslim Brotherhood,” without a single fact to support that claim, but then rightists don’t care about facts when they have delicious bigotry to exploit and political points to be made using fear of “the other.” Their obsession with Sharia Law, despite the fact that most countries with Muslim majorities are secular who don’t follow Sharia law, demonstrates their eagerness to demonize democratic efforts in Muslim countries and support dictatorships who are beneficial to American business. Those which do follow Sharia are theocracies (DUH!) and dictatorships like Saudi Arabia, not democracies. However, a democracy means the people make their own laws or elect representatives to make them. So long as the majority supports those laws, regardless what they are, it is democracy. There are a great number of anti-Muslim American Christians who would love to force everyone to obey their interpretation of biblical laws, but fortunately most Americans prefer secular law over religious oppression.