A friend emailed this to me. It’s the third part of a youtube documentary by an Aussie charismatic Christian disturbed by what he is labeling “New Age Paganism” in the younger charismatic crowd. Bethel Church is located in Redding, and it looks like they get pretty wild there.
I don’t have a dog in this fight, but I didn’t realize that there were rules about proper conduct when moved by the Spirit. It really doesn’t seem unlike the videos of tongue speakers and snake handlers I’ve seen, except maybe the druggie analogies. At one point the camera is heading down a hallway and the narrator asks, “can you imagine walking into a room that sounds like this??” Well, no I can’t and I wouldn’t. The whole thing does remind me of the final scene in the Bacchae, and I am male. But I just can’t help but detect a bit of snootiness in the Aussie’s narrative. Does he act dignified when speaking in tongues? Who knew there were rules?
From the Baccae:
- Stranger: Ah! Would you like to see them in their gatherings upon the mountain?
- Pentheus: Very much. Ay, and pay uncounted gold for the pleasure.
- Stranger: Why have you conceived so strong a desire?
- Pentheus: Though it would pain me to see them drunk with wine-
- Stranger: Yet you would like to see them, pain and all.[2]
Fortunately I can see them from the safety of my computer.
42 comments
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November 16, 2010 at 1:47 pm
Anonymous
Amazing! I watched that video and my broken ankle healed!
November 16, 2010 at 2:10 pm
Joe Blow
Eric says:
Think so, do you? I’ve got news for you. In this Quantum Universe things aren’t always the way we think they are or might want them to be. Really, the laugh’s on you!
The next thing we’ll know is that you’ve found the Lord and you start posting all kinds of religious buffoonery in place of all your political wit.
November 16, 2010 at 3:46 pm
Erasmus
“The Bacchae” ends with bodies being ripped apart, and a mayhem which this video does not even approach. (Marx’s comment on tragedy repeating itself as farce comes to mind.) — Norman O. Brown , the most famous intellectual to have taught at UC-Santa Cruz (among the literate population) preached a Christic-Dionysian confluence in “Love’s Body,” though he never practiced it in his own life. (A book of interviews with him informs us that he never danced in his entire life). This Christian movement tries to put Brown’s theory into practice (without being aware of Brown, in all probability). It’s a cheap, unglamorous Dionysianism ,worthy of a country that doesn’t take anything very seriously (starting with Christianity). More of a joke than anything else.
November 16, 2010 at 5:06 pm
Eric Kirk
The next thing we’ll know is that you’ve found the Lord…
Been there, done that.
November 16, 2010 at 6:07 pm
Sally
I had trouble streaming the video… but I went to their website. Looks like a pretty big organization, which includes pre-schools, K-12 schools, etc. I wonder what their “Back To School” nights are like?
November 16, 2010 at 6:12 pm
Jim
Whoa, this is super weird. But any more weird than other religious expression? Yes.
I’ll take some rastafari over this craziness any day.
What is the point of this form of worship? What do they say to justify such behavior?
I’m all for religious freedom, but this come off very cult-ish.
November 16, 2010 at 6:22 pm
Eric Kirk
They say it’s what happens when the Holy Spirit enters them. No point other than that.
November 16, 2010 at 6:43 pm
Anonymous
Typical atheists. Afraid of what you do not understand.
November 16, 2010 at 7:45 pm
AnyMoose
“November 16, 2010 at 6:43 pm
Anonymous
Typical atheists. Afraid of what you do not understand.”
I think you have that backwards, pal……..
November 16, 2010 at 10:22 pm
moviedad
The only sound a human being can form when confronted with a holy spirit is: ‘gulp’.
November 17, 2010 at 8:39 am
Bruce Ross
Bethel’s quite the phenomenon. Hard-headed materialists like me obviously don’t put much stock in its beliefs, and yet as the video shows Bill Johnson is also very controversial among Christians — and even among his fellow Pentacostals.
But if you can measure a church by the size of its flock, Bethel’s doing something right. The church is huge and growing. Draws people from literally around the world for services and the School of International Ministry — or just to be here because the church is here.
It’s become a running joke in Redding that if you meet a clean-cut but vaguely hipsterish young couple new in town, especially if they’re starting a new business (optimists, they), it almost inevitably turns out they’re connected with Bethel. In my experience, at least, you couldn’t ask for nicer people — whatever their theology.
November 17, 2010 at 9:30 am
Doug Green
Does this mean that there is hope for Redding?
November 17, 2010 at 9:38 am
Joe Blow
Eric: “The next thing we’ll know is that you’ve found the Lord…”
The ONLY way you can do this is if you CAUGHT the spirit. So what are you afraid of that you need “computer protection”?
You’re funny!
November 17, 2010 at 10:35 am
Holy pancakes batman!
IHOP. Mmmmm.
November 17, 2010 at 11:40 am
Dave Kirby
Last year I was headed to Hat Creek and took a wrong turn off 299 looking to get supplies and ended up in the Bethel parking lot on a sunday. The place looks more like a sports venue than a church. Had I known it was a happening place I would have dropped in. Sort of the story of my spiritual life …never have been able to quite catch up to the Holy Ghost. Back in the 60s we had the Jesus Freaks. Many had come to the light on acid. One local guy saw the golden thrown of god thru the magic of window pane another had Jesus come thru the ceiling while coming down in a motel room in Laguna Beach. God works in mysterious ways.
November 17, 2010 at 11:42 am
Dave Kirby
Should be throne I think.
November 17, 2010 at 11:44 am
Joe Blow
Eric, this is not the thread where you were talking about the level of income of rep. and senate rep’s to justify your argument. It seems they DO have a vested money interest.
Lawmakers personal wealth rose 16 percent http://reut.rs/bwqbYr
November 17, 2010 at 12:44 pm
Eric Kirk
The ONLY way you can do this is if you CAUGHT the spirit. So what are you afraid of that you need “computer protection”?
Getting my head chopped off because the women think I’m a mountain lion.
November 17, 2010 at 2:08 pm
Eric Kirk
But if you can measure a church by the size of its floc k, Bethel’s doing something right. The church is huge and growing. Draws people from literally around the world for services and the School of International Ministry — or just to be here because the church is here.
Bruce, there has always been tension between the Baptist-based fundamentalists and the charismatic church. Some of the televangelists try to sit on the fence, but the divide is very real. Both claim to be Biblical literlists, and both accuse the other of taking certain passages out of context.
What this video reveals is a division within the charismatic camp, and I had no idea it was so deep. Granted, I studied about Protestant fundamentalism while in college during the 1980s, and this split apparently heated up during the 1990s.
Basically, the Baptist tradition views the miraculous as something limited to New Testament time, and view most supernatural activity since then as demonically generated. I think it’s kind of culturally rooted in the Puritan tradition of life as a hard hoe in which you must work hard for very little, and the charismatic offers instant gratification which does not require a depth of faith. The charismatics for their part see the miracle as proof of the doctrine of faith as opposed to works, recognizing that nothing good comes but from God and therefor the gifts are free because there is nothing else. They see the Baptist tradition as Pharisaic, much as the more stoic fundamentalists view the mainline modernist churches.
It hearkens back to the intra-fundamentalist argument about whether we can know we are in the “final days.” Millenialism ebbs and flows in its popularity, but since just about everything in Hal Lindsay’s “Late Great Planet Earth” has turned out different from his predictions, the whole phenomenon has lost luster. He still insists that the EU will end up with only 10 member countries as it was when he argued that it was the Beast of Revelations with 10 heads. The member countries are about twice that now I think.
The traditionalsts take literally Jesus saying that we don’t know when the final days will happen. And much of the debate hinges on the passages which begins “this generation shall not pass… ” before all these things happen. The natural way to read it is that Jesus was referring to the generation of the time, but the millenialists argue that “this” simply means the generation in which it will all happen. Basically, when Israel was recreated in 1948, the millenialists cheered because it was all coming true and the end is supposed to come within “this generation.” So how long is a generation? I assume a human lifetime. If the last person born in or before 1948 dies and Jesus has not returned, I guess they will have to revise their interpretations.
Won’t be the first time.
In any case, protestant fundamentalism is hardly monolithic. The sectarianism is uncannily similar to that of the Trotskyists.
November 17, 2010 at 3:03 pm
tra
If there IS a Supreme Being, they must have a wicked sense of humor.
November 17, 2010 at 3:05 pm
tra
Well, I was trying to avoid using “he” or “she,” but “they” just doesn’t look right. Okay, how about this:
If there IS a Supreme Being, it must have a wicked sense of humor.
November 17, 2010 at 3:25 pm
Bruce Ross
Eric,
If you’re interested in the subject, the Record Searchlight did a series on Bethel, including some of the doctrinal fractures, early this year. Here’s a link to one part:
http://www.redding.com/news/2010/jan/19/bethels-signs-and-wonders-include-angel-feathers/
November 17, 2010 at 5:11 pm
Bolithio
LSD?
November 17, 2010 at 5:29 pm
Bolithio
“They heard them speaking in other tongues” – one of the most hilarious and ridiculous interpretations ever made by christains. Really? I guess its not surprising that these fundamentalists dont realize how many languages were spoken in the mid-east. But to think they were just speaking gibberish, and that they should now as a sign of faith, is really a indicator that there is something seriously missing from christianity.
I believe that most ancient religions have lost all relevancy in our modern world and as such are compelled to seek hidden meaning in their texts such as this. Its sort of like the ‘emperor wears no clothes’. If you dont see it, you dont get it. But if you want to see it, and be part of the special club, you can.
November 17, 2010 at 9:48 pm
Mr. Nice
I dunno if you wanna believe census statistics but damn near twice as many people claim religion in Humboldt especially Redway etc. than Redding and you seen all them little trailer park cult churches that people prolly proudly mark “Christian – Other.”
Even though Redding got these one wacked religious people, overall they doing better than our area as far as generic devotees.
In the jackass yard talking about big ears again.
November 17, 2010 at 10:36 pm
Eric Kirk
We don’t have any of the megachurches like Bethel, but we do have some interesting groups.
Bruce – thanks for the link! I’ll check it out.
Oh, and for those of you who consider yourselves Christian Hipsters, you can measure your hiipness with this quiz.
http://www.hipsterchristianity.com/quiz.php
November 18, 2010 at 10:02 am
Joe Blow
Eric, for someone that doesn’t know much about religion or the Bible, you sure do seem to be talking like you know what your talking about. You been taking lessons from Ernie Branscomb again?
Biblical timing is a bit more precise than your than your way. To understand the Second Coming of Christ you’d have to understand what Christ brought the first time and I seriously doubt that’s going to happen.
By the way, what makes you think Jesus’ return hasn’t already happened? I doubt you’d know him if he walked right up and slapped you in the face.
November 18, 2010 at 10:08 am
tra
“…if he walked right up and slapped you in the face.”
Is that something the second-coming Jesus is likely to do?
I guess to be safe, the proper response would be to turn the other cheek!
November 18, 2010 at 4:11 pm
Bolithio
If jesus has returned, wtf is he doing? I think of a lyric from a newer tom waits song:
“If god is good,
and god is great,
why cant he change the hearts of men?”
November 18, 2010 at 4:47 pm
Anonymous
Paganism!… New Age Spirituality!… Eastern Philosophy! Oh No! Demons all!
Christians doing it wrong! More demons!
“Kill ‘em all! God will know his own!”, a famous christian said at the start of a thousand year inquisition that brutally murdered millions and made the church rich.
Did the inquisition ever really end?
November 19, 2010 at 10:43 am
Joe Blow
Unlike Eric’s non-response, this is a good question?
Who says He hasn’t? That was the point of my comment. Do you know how many hearts Jesus Christ changed when he was on earth? Absolutely NONE. Guess he was a fake, wannabe too.
November 19, 2010 at 10:50 am
Joe Blow
tra says:
At least you would be DOING something! All the great fearless orators do is hang their heads and walk away in dead silence like gutless, effeminate cowards. When you turn the other cheek be sure to look him right straight in the eye like you’re worth something and this time make him take some responsibility for the slap. You just might find that he’ll shake your hand instead.
November 19, 2010 at 3:32 pm
tra
These charismatics may be quirky, but I’ll take quirky over genocidally insane anyday:
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/11/bryan_fischer_defends_feminized_medal_of_honor_com.php?ref=fpb
“Fischer, who is the “Director of Issues Analysis” for the conservative Christian group the American Family Association, explained himself after what he called “blowback” to his column: “The bottom line here is that the God of the Bible clearly honors those who show valor and gallantry in waging aggressive war in a just cause against the enemies of freedom, even while inflicting massive casualties in the process.” ”
“What I’m saying is that it’s time we started imitating God’s example again,” Fischer wrote.
November 20, 2010 at 8:21 pm
Bolithio
Joe, I don’t understand your point from either post. Can you just make your point straight out? How can anyone quantify what a historical character did 2000 years ago?
I think the point of the lyric is that we cant rely on God to make good in the world – we have to take responsibility for our actions. We have to be good, with or without God. Is that what your trying to say too?
November 22, 2010 at 3:20 pm
Joe Blow
Bolithio, my comment was directed to Eric Kirk, who is too gutless to answer or defend himself. I’m saying that when people deliberately ignore someone like he does, everyone gets his point. I guess he’s afraid that if he tries to deal with something substantive once in a while he’ll only validate his ignorance. At least you had the guts to confront the issue. You understand better than you think.
“How can anyone quantify what a historical character did 2000 years ago?”
We have 2000 years of history involving billions of consequential so-called Christians that spawned from his life and teachings, that how. There are also people on this earth today that put into practice and made real all of his teachings in their lives and know the difference. My point was, we have to take responsibility for who and what we ARE. Not what we think we are or what someone else thinks we are. My question was, who says God hasn’t made good in the world? Who defines “good”? You or God? According to the Biblical record it is reputed to reveal that God defined Jesus and Jesus defined “good.”
My further point, to satisfy your request, is that few if any, including Eric Kirk and others that are like him wouldn’t know, based on their defined and documented conduct, Jesus Christ (“good”) if their lives depended upon it.
November 22, 2010 at 3:20 pm
Joe Blow
Bolithio, my comment was directed to Eric Kirk, who is too gutless to answer or defend himself. I’m saying that when people deliberately ignore someone like he does, everyone gets his point. I guess he’s afraid that if he tries to deal with something substantive once in a while he’ll only validate his ignorance. At least you had the guts to confront the issue. You understand better than you think.
“How can anyone quantify what a historical character did 2000 years ago?”
We have 2000 years of history involving billions of consequential so-called Christians that spawned from his life and teachings, that how. There are also people on this earth today that put into practice and made real all of his teachings in their lives and know the difference. My point was, we have to take responsibility for who and what we ARE. Not what we think we are or what someone else thinks we are. My question was, who says God hasn’t made good in the world? Who defines “good”? You or God? According to the Biblical record it is reputed to reveal that God defined Jesus and Jesus defined “good.”
My further point, to satisfy your request, is that few if any, including Eric Kirk and others that are like him wouldn’t know, based on their defined and documented conduct, Jesus Christ (“good”) if their lives depended upon it.
November 22, 2010 at 3:24 pm
Eric Kirk
Uh, what was the question I didn’t answer?
November 22, 2010 at 4:06 pm
Bolithio
I define good, because I am experiencing life.
If God is making good in the world, from my view, he is very very selective. Sorry for more song lyrics, but:
Please guide me now for I cant see
a reason for this suffering and this long misery…
If God is as described in the Bible – omnipotent – what is the purpose for all of the terrible strife in the world?
November 22, 2010 at 9:54 pm
Joe Blow
Eric:
BRILLIANT!
Bolithio: “I am experiencing life.” So you know good? What the hell does life have to do with good? Or God’s omnipotence with strife? Take a hint from the lyric. Your inability or Eric’s to know God or follow the thread certainly isn’t my problem. Maybe the answer has something to do with actually BEING responsible for your own actions.
November 22, 2010 at 10:07 pm
Eric Kirk
Okay, I went back though the thread, and I found two questions.
You been taking lessons from Ernie Branscomb again?
Always.
By the way, what makes you think Jesus’ return hasn’t already happened?
Gosh. I don’t know. Maybe because the sun hasn’t darkened, the moon hasn’t turned red, and all the stars haven’t fallen to Earth?
Or maybe that did happen! Maybe the world ended yesterday and we are in a time warp and don’t know it! Now there’s a placard to walk on Market Street in San Francisco!
November 22, 2010 at 10:34 pm
mresquan
“By the way, what makes you think Jesus’ return hasn’t already happened?”
He has…although everyone surrounding him laughed away at him and were convinced he was off his meds so he was tossed in a wagon and taken to SempiVirens.
November 23, 2010 at 1:34 pm
Joe Blow
Gee! Thanks for demonstrating what a class act you are Eric.
That’s why I said in the first place, you wouldn’t know Jesus Christ if he walked up and slapped you in the face. Not that I can see any reason why he would want to be bothered with you…
Thanks for proving me right. I love it when I can get a lawyer to do that.
About the Branscomb connection, thanks for proving me right on that one too. I wonder how long it’s going to take the folks in SoHum to figure out how full of it you two are. I’d say probably right up to the time Jesus Christ reveals himself and you two are exposed. I wonder if that could happen by December 2012. One can always hope – you two are good at that, right?