I still haven’t had the time to catch up with the story behind what was a horrific event over the weekend, but here’s some coverage.
From The Nation:
http://www.thenation.com/blog/israels-piracy
http://www.thenation.com/blog/ex-us-ambassador-among-those-seized-israelis
This one is about lack of satisfaction in Obama’s response.
Netanyahu canceled a meeting with Obama to fly home to deal with the fallout.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/31/AR2010053101782.html
Turkey is comparing the incident to 9/11.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/01/AR2010060101506.html?hpid=topnews
An article on one of the Americans involved.
Israel’s press conference on the subject claiming they found weapons on the flotilla, and that they were shot at first.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Speeches+by+Israeli+leader
/2010/Gaza_flotilla_Press_conference_DepFM_Ayalon_31-May-2010.htm
The Israeli account of the incident.
The videos came from the Israeli government link. If anybody has anything from a more neutral source, please let me know.
Addendum: Here is the most reasonable piece on the incident I’ve come across, or so it appears to me since I pretty much agree with the analysis. I think in Israel’s case I’m reminded of the old peace movement saying, “when your only tool is a hammer, you see every problem as a nail.”
Second addendum: Some statements from flotilla survivors.
Third addendum: Here’s a CBS story on the topic.
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June 1, 2010 at 8:24 am
Eric Kirk
Sorry if all the links don’t work. I was in kind of a hurry.
June 1, 2010 at 8:31 am
Mitch
Thanks, Eric.
I think practically everyone likely to read this can agree about the following:
1) The Palestinians have many legitimate grievances against Israel.
2) Hamas continues to seek the destruction of Israel by whatever means necessary.
3) It would be a good thing if Israel would halt settlements in currently Palestinian areas and jail settlers who resist.
4) This incident was a clusterfuck by the Israeli military.
5) No one would be dead if Israel had not tried to put people on board the ships.
6) No one would be dead if some of the activists had not attacked the boarding Israelis. (Or the invading Israelis, if that makes you feel better.)
7) Killing people is bad.
June 1, 2010 at 8:36 am
Mitch
And now for some points I believe, but I expect many will disagree with:
8) Hamas has used Gaza as a launching point for attacks against Israeli civilians.
9) Israel is within its rights to blockade Gaza to prevent weapons from entering.
10) Allowing 10,000 tons of supplies through the blockade without an Israeli inspection would make the blockade worthless as a means of preventing weapons from entering Gaza.
June 1, 2010 at 9:14 am
Eric Kirk
Mitch – you haven’t been on my blog long enough to know that I do sympathize with the Israeli position to the point where I’ve been labeled by one or two around here a “Zionist.” I had never been a fan of Hamas or much of the Palestinian political leadership which is steeped in violence, but I had a bit of a turning point which made me even more sympathetic a few years back when the Israeli soldiers were killed in the Palestinian police station by hand and one of the killers held his bloody hands up outside the window to a cheering crowd. Some things can not be explained away by cultural differences and/or oppression.
But I do believe that Israel generates many of its problems with chronic responses which are way out of proportion to the provocations. The mortaring of Israeli townships was a clear violation of the truce, but massive invasion which seemed designed to punish the entire population for the acts of extremists was well out of bounds of reason. Here, it does appear that it was appropriate to prevent the ship from moving through the blockade, but the commando on a rope approach was clearly provocative, and the body count seems high in an action against people armed with metal pipes. Were there alternatives? Did they have to take the ship? Could they have disabled it first and waited them out, or even pulled them out of the harbor? I don’t know. As I said, I just haven’t had time to catch up with the story.
I’ll give you one thing however Mitch. This was not a Ghandiesque civil disobedience action comparable to the school bus full of supplies in protest of the Cuba embargo in which my grandmother participated. Unfortunately, I think the nonviolence code is a lost art in modern protest politics.
I would like more facts about this incident. What was the mission? Who organized it? The chain of events leading up to the killings? I don’t see many scenarios where the Israelis could be held blameless here. But there are obviously more facts than being reported in cryptic posts about evil empires.
June 1, 2010 at 9:31 am
the reasonable anonymous
Both sides acting like thugs. Sadly, no surprise there.
In practical terms, I think it’s safe to say that the “weapons” seized on that ship would not have changed the (totally lopsided) “balance of power” between Israel and the Gaza militants.
I understand Israel’s desire to maintain it’s blockade, but in this case I think they probably now realize that the public relations price was way too high, not that they will ever admit this publicly.
I’d say “a pox on both their houses” except that they have both had that pox for a long time, and that hasn’t seemed to improve things any. So instead I’ll wish them “a pox on neither of their houses.”
June 1, 2010 at 9:32 am
anonymous
Please keep in mind we haven’t heard anything from the people on the ship. I am waiting until they are free to talk. One thing is clear, Israel had weeks to prepare for this and they responded by dropping commandos from a helicopter by rope under the cover of darkness. “Clusterfuck” would be a good choice of phrases if not for the dead and injured.
June 1, 2010 at 9:33 am
Eric Kirk
http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20100531_flotillas_and_wars_public_opinion?utm_source=GWeekly&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=100531&utm_content=readmore&elq=ec0dbb5abd264ff39b3645c5d73e93b4
June 1, 2010 at 9:33 am
Mitch
Eric,
In short, I agree completely.
June 1, 2010 at 9:34 am
the reasonable anonymous
I hope that someday we’ll be able to look back at this and, like the Northern Ireland situation, we’ll just wonder why it took so long to achieve peace.
June 1, 2010 at 10:12 am
Mitch
tra 9:31,
It’s not about affecting the balance of power. It’s about protecting your civilian population, the most basic task a goverment is charged with.
Even one death on the flotilla is too many, even before weighing “PR”. There were zillions of approaches that would have prevented the flotilla from landing at Gaza without involving any deaths.
Wrt public relations, no sane Israeli would think this outcome is good for Israel. It’s probably pointless to speculate, but my guess is Israeli intelligence was on board the flotilla and incorrectly reported that there would be no violent resistance to a boarding. I find it impossible to make sense of the boarding otherwise — it’s just too incredibly stupid.
The only “winner” from this is the civilian Islamist government in Turkey, which gets to split the secular pro-Israel Turkish military from Israel.
June 1, 2010 at 10:31 am
Johnny O
Perhaps this event will be a catalyst for finding a productive solution to the Gaza question. I agreed with much of what that Stratfor analysis argued, especially the ramifications geopolitically and internally. Turkey has long been a necessary ally of Israel, so this is disastrous for that country.
June 1, 2010 at 11:05 am
Joe Blow
The convoluted thinking exemplified here based upon immoral beliefs demonstrates the sickness motivating American support and complicity that works like a cancer within our society. What goes around comes around; a lesson the Jews and their wanton American “friends” are about to learn.
June 1, 2010 at 12:16 pm
anonymous
Okay, now after 36 hours of the Israeli propaganda machine spinning unopposed, we are getting the other side of the story. Hanin Zoabi, a member of the Israeli parliament, who was aboard the Miva Marmara were the killings took place, says the Israeli navy fired on the ship five minutes before the commandos descended from the helicopter. Huwaida Arraf, an activist on a smaller boat said her boat was shelled with concussion grenades, sound bombs and pellets before the Israeli navy boarded them. It is already an ugly story but as the true number of dead are revealed and more first hand stories from those being released come out, I have a feeling it’s going to get a lot uglier.
Israel is doing quite a job lately of undermining its own security by creating legions of new enemies and sabotaging its standing in the world among allies.
June 1, 2010 at 1:05 pm
the reasonable anonymous
Mitch, I’m pretty much in agreement with most of what you have written above.
Israel has a real conumdrum related to its duty to “protect its civilian population.” You see, as long as they continue to, in effect, control the occupied territories (through occupation and/or blockade) they are in fact responsible for the safety of civilians on both sides of the line.
I don’t envy them their position, but the fact is that successive Israeli governments have failed to stop the extreme right in Israel from undermining peace efforts any time they seem to be gaining ground. Of course the same is true of the Palestinians, particularly Hamas. It truly is a Gordian knot, and growing more twisted all the time. I wish there was a simple answer, but obviously there is not.
June 1, 2010 at 1:08 pm
the reasonable anonymous
Joe Blow,
It’s not about “Jews,” it’s about Israelis, and in particular the Israeli government and the right-wing Israelis who have done everything they can, time and time again, to disrupt any peace process that seems to be getting underway. Just remember what happened to Rabin, he was assasinated by a right-wing Israeli extremist, not some Palestinian terrorist.
June 1, 2010 at 2:50 pm
BrokenNoses
The “pox on both their houses” rings awfully hollow when you consider that our nation is the sole reason Israel still exists. We hear politicos scream about pork and entitlements and yet, we send billions and billions of unaccountable tax payer dollars to Israel every year.
The effective lobbying has hundreds of elected lawmakers in DC willing to bend over backwards to defend Israel no matter what heinous acts they commit.
Then again, considering what we have done all across the globe pales in comparison to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, but Israel is still our baby and they will never let us forget that.
June 1, 2010 at 3:57 pm
Joel Mielke
“Hamas has used Gaza as a launching point for attacks against Israeli civilians.”
And the IDF uses Israel “as a launching point for attacks” on Palestinian civilians. The rest of Mitch’s second set of points was equally ludicrous. Logic goes straight into the shitter whenever the subject of Israel/Palestine comes up.
June 1, 2010 at 4:37 pm
Eric Kirk
Whenever the Israel/Palestine issue comes up, I like to post Michael Walzer’s The Four Wars of Israel/Palestine. Should be required reading for anyone who opens his/her mouth on the issue.
http://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/?article=557
June 1, 2010 at 5:07 pm
Mitch
Eric,
Thanks for posting the link. It’s an interesting article. Unfortunately, it’s from 2002, and the “hard argument” Walzer makes is, basically, that Israel should withdraw from Gaza (and the West Bank) to allow Palestinian moderates some opportunity to bloom. We know the result of that: a Hamas government in Gaza.
Unfortunately, the Europeans responsible (in so many lovely ways) for the existence of Israel find it fashionable to tut-tut when Israelis try not to be wiped out. And, for much of the American left, emoting with Palestinians is almost as cheap a way to demonstrate one’s “superior sensibility” as putting a save the whales bumper sticker on one’s car.
I’m outta here.
June 1, 2010 at 5:08 pm
Anonymous
How serious are the injuries to the Isrealis Naval Commandos? From the video it was obvious, to anyone not so blind with hate, that the Israeli’s were viciously assaulted as soon as they hit the deck. Repeated overhand blows with a ling object (metal pipe)
What would you expect them to do just lie there and be beaten to death? Or stand by while their mates were beaten to death?
I am glad there is the video to document the violent attack on the Israelis.
And to Joel, if you feel so strongly why don’t you take off to Turkey and volunteer to go on the next ship to run the blockade? Wouldn’t that be something?
June 1, 2010 at 5:26 pm
Joel Mielke
“We know the result of that: a Hamas government in Gaza.”
Mitch, just stop, for fuck’s sake. What does “withdrawal from Gaza” have to do with the election of Hamas? Evidently, you’re already “outta here.”
June 1, 2010 at 5:32 pm
the reasonable anonymous
If I recall correctly, Hamas had won the elections in Gaza and taken over Gaza before Israel withdrew its soldiers from Gaza. Correct me if I’m wrong.
June 1, 2010 at 5:51 pm
Mitch
tra,
Walzer’s piece was written in 2002.
Israel’s unilateral withdrawal from Gaza took place in 2005.
Hamas won elections conducted by the Palestinians in 2006.
June 1, 2010 at 7:52 pm
Anonymous
Israel’s only tool is not a hammer e, it is the only tool they choose to use. That, or bombs, or starvation, the list goes on. Israel is as big a thug as the US. Maybe worse.
I think the soldier removal time line is correst.
June 1, 2010 at 8:34 pm
the reasonable anonymous
Thanks for the info, Mitch.
June 1, 2010 at 8:42 pm
Eric Kirk
Mitch – the way I see it is the future can be broken down into these possibilities.
1. Israel is destroyed.
2. Palestinians are forcefully removed from the West Bank and Gaza.
3. The Nation of Palestine is created within the borders of Gaza and West Bank, and recognized by Israel, with Palestinian recognition of Israel’s right to exist.
4. Israel and Palestine merge to form one country with equal rights for everyone.
5. The status quo into perpetuity.
I would think that 1, 2, and 5 would be unacceptable to all but the extremists on one side, the other, or both. 4 is a secular leftist pipe dream. That leaves 3.
The primary obstacles are:
1. The claims both cultures make to East Jerusalem.
2. Water.
3. The extreme nationalism of the vast Israeli right (most of the liberals having left the country over the past 20 years).
4. The religious war mentality of many of the Palestinians which separates them from other “liberation” movements around the country (as bad as it was for black people in South Africa, they never sent their children to sacrifice their lives to kill other children).
5. Fear.
The first two are problems which could probably be solved in a climate of rationality, which unfortunately does not govern in a war with a heavy religious component. The last three are the more serious obstacles, and many of my leftist friends strongly object to my conclusion that number 4 is a factor bigger than the other four. There are actions which simply cannot be justified nor even explained by oppression.
Basically, there is fault on all sides, but it is not equal. I really do believe that the first step towards peace has to be a renaissance/enlightenment within Islam. Modernists have to stand up to fundamentalists, as happened in the west over the past 500 years, only it has to be accelerated.
Thing is, I’m an optimist. I view human nature as positively adaptive, particularly when the species survival is at stake. I think it’ll happen.
June 1, 2010 at 8:59 pm
anonymous
Eric, I pretty much agree with everything you stated with the exception of the last sentence. The Islamic modernist are getting increasingly shouted down by the fundamentalist and the behavior of the hardliners running the Israeli government will ensure that they always will. The sad truth is the first possibility is probably the surest and probably in our lifetime.
June 1, 2010 at 9:01 pm
the reasonable anonymous
I agree with most of what you said Eric. But I’m not so sure that Palestinians are really all that unique with respect to “sending their children to kill other children.” That is pretty much the history of human warfare in a nutshell, and there are plenty of child soldiers in use around the world even today (sadly).
To take one recent and salient example, you may recall that street fighting in Northern Ireland often involved Catholic children and teens on the front lines, throwing stones and bottles and whatnot at the British police/soldiers, while the “grandfathers” egged them on from the rear. Not surprisingly, these kids ended up taking the brunt of the counterattacks from the British police/soldiers in these situations.
Like terrorist bombings, this use of more “expendable” children to provoke and harrass the enemy seems to crop up in situations of extremely asymmetrical warfare, where one side is so much militarily stronger than the other side that standing up to them directly would be fruitless. Let me be clear, I’m not condoning this, it still strikes me as cowardly and inherently evil to send your kids to do the killing and dying while the adults stay safely out of range.
Of course our own country does the same thing, albeit with a slightly higher age cut-off. Our military recruits 16 and 17 year olds and puts 18 year olds out there as cannon fodder. It’s not exactly the same thing…but it’s not entirely different either.
June 1, 2010 at 9:14 pm
the reasonable anonymous
Oh, and I think that in order to get to a Middle East Peace deal, a Rennaissance and Enlightenment within Islam will have to be accompanied by a Rennaissance and Enlightenment within Israeli Judaism, unlikely though that seems.
And I can’t see how either group is EVER going to give up on the Temple Mount. Israelis can’t give up on the idea that the Third Temple will be built there, but the Muslims aren’t likely to give up on the Dome of the Rock, which currently occupies that piece of real estate.
And then there are the fundamentalist Christians here in the U.S., who want Israel to hurry up and kick the Muslims off the Temple Mount, demolish that pesky mosque, and re-build the Temple so that the Messiah (Jesus to them) will come on back and rapture the fundies up to a pearly-white heaven where only people just like them will live in heavenly peace forever.
Actually, more than any Rennaissance or Enlightenment, I wish more people of all religions could recognize that any God who wants/allows His children to slaughter one another in order to satisfy his rather peculiar and strangely specific real estate demands is sadly lacking in the omnibenevolence department, and most likely an outright fraud. There, I’ve said it.
June 2, 2010 at 6:47 am
Mitch
Again, Eric, I think you’re right. (Though I don’t share your optimism.)
Your option 3 is the only possibility forward. Unfortunately, there is little reason for Israel to believe that the Palestinian state would put an end to pan-Arab demands for the remaining Israeli territory. There had been hope, until the Palestinian electorate voted for Hamas. And from an Arab or Islamic point of view, what the fuck is a Jewish, Western state doing on their land, anyway? (The same question — Christian substituted for Jewish — could be asked of the United States by the non-immigrant community.)
The world played a very dirty trick on its Holocaust survivors, and Israel was very smart to become an armed to the teeth nuclear power. In my opinion, that’s the only reason Israel has survived to the present day. As countries like Iran get the nuclear bomb, I expect Israel will cease to exist, whether through use of the bomb or the loss of its lopsided negotiating power.
If I didn’t already think the world’s “powers” were beneath contempt, the way the world has treated Israel would be more than enough to cause me to come to that conclusion.
I think it was Woody Allen who asked God how he managed to find the one bit of the middle east without oil.
June 2, 2010 at 6:49 am
Mitch
tra,
“There, I’ve said it.”
Well, assuming that’s part of your internal dialog, congratulations.
June 2, 2010 at 7:47 am
Eric Kirk
The world played a very dirty trick on its Holocaust survivors, and Israel was very smart to become an armed to the teeth nuclear power.
Hey, if they’d waited to ask me, I’d have told the world to give them a chunk of Germany.
June 2, 2010 at 7:59 am
Eric Kirk
Again, Eric, I think you’re right. (Though I don’t share your optimism.)
If they can ever get through a decade without a major engagement, I think they’d be a long ways towards a long term peace. You need a generation of Palestinians with children, businesses and jobs – something to live for.
June 2, 2010 at 8:19 am
Mitch
Unfortunately, Eric, even were there to be a decade without a major engagement (which I don’t see happening), you’d still have children brought up on this and this..
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2001/11/SPOTLIGHT-%20Incitement-%20Antisemitism%20and%20Hatred%20of
June 2, 2010 at 8:22 am
Jim Buoy
It’s always a treat when well fed intellectuals engage in scholarly analysis of the Israel-Palestinian problem. Mitch, your time line @ 5:51 is fundamentally sound, with one glaring omission. I’ll get to that. And Eric, yes, I believe we all saw the bloody hands and the IDF soldier’s body being tossed out the police station window. Our free range, liberal, media goes out of it’s way to show us such truths. A real stomach churning turning point for you, no doubt. Fortunately, in this country, our digestive tracts are spared the graphic pictures of bloody dead Palestinian children as a result of indiscriminate shelling by IDF forces. Even the video deliberately omits those images that we can only guess at. Besides, it can be, and always is, blamed on the other side, or, as the Bush Admin was fond of calling it: “The fog of war.”
There also exists a fundamental flaw with the accepted truth that the Israeli blockade against Gaza is all about Israel’s Security, specifically, the blocking of the flow of arms and munitions from the hands of Hamas, and it is this. The blockade was put in place right after Hamas won significant gains in the democratic election of January 26, 2006 – not after June 2007 as is commonly, and, mistakenly , attributed. If you read the article you will see that, “The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger”. How nice of them. That blockade has been in place, with a few short intervals of relaxation, ever since. It had nothing to do with Hamas mortar reprisals but more to do with ousting Hamas altogether before they even got started. That plan has certainly worked out well.
As further evidence of that best selling, Dr. Israel’s Palestinian 53 Month Diet Plan, we have this comprehensive list of banned items. Notice that even that article has the initial blockade date wrong and uses the politically accepted since “Hamas seized control in June 2007″ vernacular. [The key operative swing word in that sentence is the word,"heightened".] For those of you who like abridged versions, try this .
We can clearly see that fresh food and anything that can be used by the Palestinians to maintain some semblance of a functioning society is prohibited, including those ingredients used to make coriander, ginger and nutmeg bombs which could kill innocent, well fed, Israeli citizens. Surely, how anyone could allow their undernourished children with no hope for a sustainable future to become suicide bombers is understandably unfathomable to those who spend an inordinate amount of time discussing which bistro offers the best thin crust family sized pizza, or which parlor has the bestest ice cream around and who have never even contemplated a serious diet plan for themselves. But there may be others who believe that slow, methodical, starvation and deprivation is the most insidious of all terrorism. If there is one important thing that the flotilla enterprise has accomplished it is the simple fact that up to now who even knew this form of terrorism was being perpetrated? Only in self defense, of course.
As Janis Joplin sang so eloquently, “freedom’s just another word for nothing left to lose”. That line explains more about the mentality within Gaza then anything you mid-east buffet chair scholars could possibly contribute. Why not just stick to your gourmet threads.
June 2, 2010 at 8:31 am
Mitch
From the UK Guardian, quoted without comment:
June 2, 2010 at 8:43 am
anonymous
Hasan Nowarah’s account sounds as ludicrous as the IDF’s. If Israel is telling the truth why would they need to confiscate every camera and recording device that the flotilla activist carried? They are clearly trying to manage the narrative which is understandable but even you, Mitch, can’t be so blinded as the believe the IDF’s version is the truth, can you?
June 2, 2010 at 8:44 am
Mitch
And the sanest commentary on this disaster I’ve yet seen:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/02/opinion/02oz.html
June 2, 2010 at 8:45 am
Joel Mielke
What difference does “Israel’s unilateral withdrawal from Gaza” make? It’s obvious that Israel can make the people of Gaza miserable whether they’ve “withdrawn” or not.
Eric wrings his hands over the “religious war mentality” that “separates [Palestinians] from other ‘liberation’ movements,” as if he would behave differently were he to be subjected to the life of the typical Gazan (and why, Eric, is liberation in quotes?). This is the sort of fatuous horse shit that one sees in every thread about Palestine.
June 2, 2010 at 8:50 am
Eric Kirk
Unfortunately, Eric, even were there to be a decade without a major engagement (which I don’t see happening), you’d still have children brought up on this and this..
Yeah, but it’s one thing to be brought up on abstractions. It’s another to have it compounded by missiles flying into your childhood neighborhood while dodging IDF bullets. I don’t want to under-estimate the power of the anti-semitic teaching, don’t get me wrong. But it won’t turn most kids into killers.
June 2, 2010 at 8:51 am
Eric Kirk
and why, Eric, is liberation in quotes?
Because for some I think it’s more about killing Israelis than acquiring an independent homeland.
June 2, 2010 at 9:04 am
Mitch
Jim Buoy,
Basically, I agree with you. I’m sure we’d distribute the blame for the conditions in the Gaza strip differently than one another, but it’s unquestionably a humanitarian disgrace.
Other than that, all I can say is I agree with the Amos Oz commentary I praised at 8:44.
anonymous,
Yes, I think the IDF version is fairly close to the truth. I don’t think splitting the difference between two sets of presented “facts” is a good way of getting at the truth. The close-up video of the commandos being clubbed is pretty clear. Also, I can’t think of any reason for Israel to have intentionally killed nine Turkish peace activists, knowing that they couldn’t block the satellite link from the ship. Finally, if Israel had wanted to bring massive force to bear, it had an unlimited number of “better” ways to do that.
Israel will have to stop the Gaza blockade now. Everyone at IDF would know that killing people on this flotilla would lead to that.
June 2, 2010 at 9:06 am
Mitch
And, anonymous, it’s obvious to me why IDF would confiscate every camera, and it doesn’t mean they are using big lie techniques. One photo of one commando wrenching one woman’s arm behind her back (perhaps after she’d bitten him or kicked him in the balls, or tried to knife him) would flash worldwide instantly.
June 2, 2010 at 9:21 am
Mitch
Joel,
The reason I cited Israel’s unilateral withdrawal from Gaza is only that it was one of the paths to peace proposed as a “hard argument” in the Michael Walzer essay Eric cited. It didn’t work out.
June 2, 2010 at 10:13 am
Joel Mielke
They’ve never really “withdrawn.” Propaganda rarely solves problems, but it gives rhetorical ammunition to credulous sympathizers.
June 2, 2010 at 11:04 am
Anonymous
A settlement forcibly “evacuated”:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gush_Katif
Sharansky resigns over withdrawal:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article387875.ece
NPR collection:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4797062
Washington Post summary:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/10/AR2005081000713.html
A Palestinian pollster interviewed months after the withdrawal:
http://www.cfr.org/publication/9055/shikaki.html
Terror attack timeline post-withdrawal:
http://www.theisraelproject.org/site/c.hsJPK0PIJpH/b.4465801/k.972/Timeline_Terror_Attacks_by_Hamas_Since_Israel8217s_Gaza_Withdrawal.htm
June 2, 2010 at 11:12 am
thymeline
Did anyone else note that most of the “weapons” look like kitchen knives and screw drivers?
June 2, 2010 at 11:13 am
Mitch
Joel and all,
Israeli settlement forcibly dismanted by Israeli military:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gush_Katif
NPR summary of stories on Israeli withdrawal:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4797062
Palestinian pollster on effects of withdrawal:
http://www.cfr.org/publication/9055/shikaki.html
Washington Post summary:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/10/AR2005081000713.html
Terror attack timeline, post withdrawal:
http://www.theisraelproject.org/site/c.hsJPK0PIJpH/b.4465801/k.972/Timeline_Terror_Attacks_by_Hamas_Since_Israel8217s_Gaza_Withdrawal.htm
Quote from Wikipedia entry on Gush Katif, worth reading to see the immediate response to Israel’s sending its military to forcibly evict “settlers”:
On August 13, 2005, the Gush Katif region was closed to non-residents, in keeping with the plan to evacuate the Katif bloc. Though effectively violating the Disengagement law which most residents viewed as highly immoral and illegitimate, most settlers did not voluntarily leave their homes or even pack in preparation of the eviction. On August 15, 2005, the forcible evacuation of the Gush Katif settlements began. On August 22, 2005, the residents of the last settlement, Netzarim, were evicted. In essence, many residents returned to pack the contents of their homes and the Israeli government began the destruction of all residential buildings. On September 12, 2005, the Israeli Army withdrew from each settlement up to the Green Line. All public buildings (schools, libraries, community centres, office buildings) as well as industrial buildings, factories and greenhouses which could not be taken apart were left intact.
Wikinews has related news: Synagogues burn as Palestinians rejoice over Israeli withdrawal from Gaza Strip
On that day, thousands of overjoyed Palestinians (with the approval of Palestinian Authority officials and police) burned and destroyed four of the synagogues and scavenged items from the rubble of former homes (destroyed by Israel before withdrawal). Originally, the Israeli cabinet had planned to destroy the synagogues and yeshivas as well, but on the previous day, the government caved in to pressure from religious Jewish organizations and reversed its decision.
June 2, 2010 at 11:27 am
Mitch
thymeline,
Have you seen the video released today, shot from the ship (presumably by journalists or peace activists)?
Did you see the IDF video released yesterday, showing the commandos being clubbed on arrival?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LulDJh4fWI
June 2, 2010 at 12:01 pm
anonymous
Mitch, thanks for the Amos Oz article link… very insightful. Also Eric, the stratfor.com link was excellent.
About the videos, We know the IDF pored over the confiscated cameras for anything that would help their narrative and they came up with one less than damning vid. If they were willing to turn all the footage over to an independent investigative body, I’d be more impressed.
June 2, 2010 at 1:07 pm
Mitch
anonymous,
You’re welcome.
I’m sure you are correct that the IDF is working hard to come up with video that shows them in the least bad light.
Think about that one “less than damning vid” for a moment. You are seeing a group of soldiers apparently trying to hook the side of the large boat carrying protesters. As they do this, the “peaceful activists” are doing the following:
* flooding the soldiers with jets of water
* throwing a box of plates on them
* throwing an exploding stun grenade at them
* waving metals bars and metal chains at them
For more than sixty unedited seconds, the only response from any of the soldiers is that one continues attempting to hook the boat.
This was shot from on board the boat by a journalist or an activist, so it is a reasonable assumption that any aggression on the part of the soldiers would have been of immediate interest to the camera’s operator.
I agree that it would be more impressive if Israel turned over all footage to an independent investigative body, but I’m still very impressed by the professionalism of the soldiers.
The behavior of the “peaceful activists” was hardly nonviolent resistance. You can certainly argue that they were fighting to prevent piracy, but it seems like a reach to say that these particular activists were behaving peacefully.
I’ve also viewed Al Jazeera video of the activists who were bused to the Jordan border. They complained to the Al Jazeera reporter that they were treated roughly, for example, they were handcuffed.
June 2, 2010 at 1:56 pm
Eric Kirk
Is there yet a detailed account of how people got killed?
June 2, 2010 at 2:10 pm
Mitch
Not that I know of, Eric. The one bit that’s new to me is a twenty or thirty minute long video filmed on board the MM where at least two activists or reporters say, in English, that two of the commandos had been captured. That suggests an explanation. I’d include the URL, but can’t find it now. Most of it was subtitled in French, and most of the reporting in different languages.
June 2, 2010 at 2:49 pm
Jim Buoy
Here’s one from Al Jazeera perspective on one the ships. Not exactly sure if it’s the main ship in question. While it is impossible to understand most of what is being said, a few things are discernible. Injuries to members of the flotilla were occurring before IDF commandos rappelled onto the deck. There are obvious sounds of some type of weapons being discharged beforehand too. Whether they were tear gas launchers or bullets is unclear. Not conclusive but certainly not selectively edited either.
What is also intriguing is the strong language now being used about the release of the flotilla members. They were “deported” and “expelled”. From what country would that be? Israel? Don’t believe they were even headed there were they?
So let’s get this straight. After being forcibly taken into custody and brought against their will to a country they had no intention of going to in the first place and held for around 48 hours, they are now being formally deported from it, with no criminal charges being brought against them. But, but… what about those poor wounded Israelis? Shouldn’t someone be brought to justice for their injuries? If this doesn’t fit the classic definition of a FUBAR situation, what does? I also understand that Sen John McCain was on FOX News pretty much declaring that we are all IDF commandos now. That makes it official.
June 2, 2010 at 4:57 pm
Joel Mielke
Gee, Mitch’s list of abuses committed against the heavily armed and highly trained Israeli soldiers was making me weepy. It could only have been God’s intervention that killed a bunch of the activists and spared all of the soldiers.
June 2, 2010 at 5:19 pm
Anonymous
hmmm, a bunch of food carrying, soft bellied, soft muscled activists against the Israeli soldiers?
June 2, 2010 at 5:30 pm
Mitch
Joel,
You can be as sarcastic as you like. If you actually watched the clip with any degree of objectivity, you’d probably be awestruck at the restraint on the part of that group of soldiers.
I’m not asking for sympathy for the soldiers. But if I were armed and somebody dropped and exploded a stun grenade in my zodiac after throwing a box of plates heavy enough to break my neck, I would not have been mentally or emotionally capable of sitting there like they did. I can only assume that one of them was radioing for permission to respond, and that they’re incredibly well-trained.
June 2, 2010 at 5:36 pm
the reasonable anonymous
Is it accurate to say that the Israeli soldiers were boarding a ship in international waters? If so, they can hardly complain that they were not greeted more peacefully.
June 2, 2010 at 5:51 pm
Mitch
tra,
You’re right, the soldiers should have been prepared for a violent reception.
But if you’re a group of nonviolent peace activists, perhaps you shouldn’t be throwing grenades and clubbing people, at least not while you’re being filmed by your allies, if you intend to continue asserting that you are a group of nonviolent peace activists. It can cause cognitive dissonance to those for whom that phrase brings to mind Gandhi and King.
June 2, 2010 at 5:51 pm
Joel Mielke
“…you’d probably be awestruck at the restraint on the part of that group of soldiers.”
No, Mitch. I wouldn’t.
June 2, 2010 at 5:57 pm
Mitch
Joel,
Why not watch and try:
http://go2.wordpress.com/?id=725X1342&site=kunsoo1024.wordpress.com&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DB6sAEYpHF24&sref=http%3A%2F%2Fkunsoo1024.wordpress.com%2F2010%2F06%2F01%2Fisrael-and-the-gaza%2F%23comment-41617
June 2, 2010 at 6:32 pm
the reasonable anonymous
“The soldiers should have been prepared for a violent reception.”
Or maybe they shouldn’t have been boarding the vessel in the first place?
I certainly agree that the protesters were not all perfectly non-violent and Ghandian or anything like that, and that they’d have looked a lot better if they were. However, I’m not sure about this, but they may have been within their rights to violently resist an armed force that was boarding and violently trying to seize their vessel, if, as reported, it was still in international waters.
And call me crazy, but I would tend to hold a government and it’s well-armed and disciplined armed forces to a much higher standard than a looslely organized group of protesters / aid-shippers.
I think the Israeli goverment really shot themselves in the foot with this one. They took the bait, and delivered an atrocity that will likely add weight to demands for an end to the Gaza blockade. Already Egypt has opened a border crossing that had been closed for quite some time.
So, by using deadly military force to stop a ship that they must have known had no bomb-making or other military equipment on it (because the protesters / aid-shippers knew that they would likely be boarded/searched), basically as a symbolic show of force, Israel may have actually increased the chances of military supplies making it across the border from Egypt. If that turns out to be the case, it will be much worse for Israel.
On the other hand, I recognize that the Israelis are in kind of a no-win situation as long as they are trying to maintain a blockade. If they let the ship pass through without boarding/searching it, then the next ship might well be carrying arms. Hoo-boy, no easy answers there. It just makes it clearer that the status quo is not very stable or easy to maintain.
In my opinion, neither side comes off looking very good in this encounter, but the Israelis probably come off looking worse, simply because they are the ones who ended up doing the killing. I suppose that’s what the protesters / aid-shippers were aiming for, though I doubt they realized how bloody a cost they’d have to pay to achieve that result.
Whattafuckingmess!
June 2, 2010 at 6:57 pm
anonymous
Hey Mitch,
I’m the anonymous that said your IQ dropped 50 points when the subject of Israel came up. That was monday when the news of this disaster first started coming in. I must apologize for that quip. Your posts have been informative, level, honest and intelligent. I can’t say I agree with you completely but I have learned a few things and have a better understanding for Israel’s position. Thanks for your thoughtful input.
June 2, 2010 at 7:08 pm
Jim Buoy
Those soldiers will get medals. Nine activists’ families get their choice of a pine box or urn.
The oddest thing to occur so far is the 180 that Barney Frank has pulled since yesterday when he was ashamed of being a Jew and called for a complete investigation of the incident. Today, on Hardball, he now claims that what Israel has done, killing 9 civilian activists, is not as bad as North Korea’s sinking of a South Korean submarine,[sic] and 46 sailors were killed. So we are now supposed to compare Israel to NK, are we? Does Barney, or anyone else with a brain, really want to go there? One is ruled by a sociopath dictator, the other merely by an incompetent democratic government. Both have nuclear weapons and are non-signatories to the NPT, which makes them both rogue nations. So, according to Barney’s logic, Israel can kill 36 more activists when the Irish relief ship arrives in a few days before parity is achieved. Maybe Barney will do the introductions. Kim meet Bibi. Bibi meet Kim.
June 2, 2010 at 7:27 pm
the reasonable anonymous
re: 6:57′s comment —
Thanks for posting that comment, a reassuring sign that online civility is not dead, that people sometimes do actually listen to one another in these blog comments and that even some of us who are posting anonymously can admit when we may have made a hasty statement or judged another commenter too harshly.
June 2, 2010 at 8:54 pm
Mitch
anonymous 6:57,
Thanks for the very kind words. An open mind is a beautiful thing.
June 2, 2010 at 9:22 pm
Eric Kirk
I don’t know Mitch. That many dead among people who were not heavily armed – it’s hard to make the argument for restraint. But I’ll watch the videos.
June 2, 2010 at 9:33 pm
Mitch
Eric,
Check out The Guardian: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/02/flotilla-raid-turkish-jihadis-troops-israel-claims
or Telegraph: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/turkey/7798493/Gaza-flotilla-attack-Turkish-activists-killed-in-raid-wanted-to-be-martyrs.html
It begins to make sense.
June 2, 2010 at 10:06 pm
the reasonable anonymous
Okay, Mitch, I read those two stories you linked to at 9:33, and what I learned was that, after their deaths, relatives of several of those who were killed claimed that they had previously said that they would be happy to be “matyred.”
Assuming that’s true, it really doesn’t change my analysis of the situation: Those on the ships aimed to bait Israel into taking violent military actions that would remind the people of the threat of violence that is inherent in a blockade, and discredit the Israeli government in the eyes of the world. Essentially, it seems that they succeeded in that goal, though of course at a steep cost in blood.
To me, the most urgent question is: What is going to happen when the next aid ship tries to make it through the blockade? If the only lesson that the Israelis take from this incident is that they need to step UP the level of violent force they bring to bear, while the aid-deliverers take the lesson that their violent resistance finally gained some attention to the situation, well that could set up the dynamic for a very, very ugly second act to this tragedy, with both sides potentially injuring or killing even more people.
I hope the U.N. or the European Union or some other entity can step in and try to bring some kind of sanity to this situation.
June 2, 2010 at 11:24 pm
the reasonable anonymous
Well Biden (on Charlie Rose) says we’re going to get to the bottom of it with an “international investigation” oh, but not quite:
Biden: “…we passed a resolution in the UN saying we need a transparent and open investigation of what happened. It looks like things are…”
Rose: “International investigation?”
Biden: “Well, an investigation run by the Israelis, but we’re open to international participation…”
Oh, so we’re going to get to the truth of the matter with an investigation RUN BY THE ISRAELIS? Umm yeah, right.
June 3, 2010 at 6:12 am
Mitch
tra,
The mystery to me has been how Israel could have killed nine unarmed activists, and that’s what Eric had commented on at 9:22. If you are dealing with a group that, unknown to most of the activists, is there to die, that may explain why you have to kill nine people to gain control of the situation.
So knowing that the Turkish contingent was not the same as the others may not change anyone’s opinion of the blockade, but it does begin to help me understand how this particular set of deaths could have happened. That’s all I was saying.
June 3, 2010 at 8:01 am
Jim Buoy
I’m still trying to figure out simpler things; why allowing Palestinians fresh meat and produce, spices, livestock, and fishing poles, is a threat to Israel’s national security. Any ideas there, Mitch?
Someone could also ask why just about every American politician, including, VP Joe Biden, excuses Israeli actions before all the facts are even in. Of course, that’s probably a silly question. I’m sure that the full international investigation, which should be conducted by Israel only, will explain everything. This also per, Joe Biden.
What right of law did Israeli commandos have to board a foreign registry ship in international waters in the first place? If it’s all about the sovereignty of a blockade, anywhere, at any time, by an opposing belligerent,[ see Joe Biden, above,] then why” the big ef-ing deal “over the Lusitania? One of the dead activists, Furkan Dogan, was an American citizen, who took 4 bullets to the head and one to the chest, but was of Turkish decent with a foreign sounding name, like Barrack Obama, so, obviously, he wasn’t a real American.
June 3, 2010 at 8:12 am
Eric Kirk
I’m still trying to figure out simpler things; why allowing Palestinians fresh meat and produce, spices, livestock, and fishing poles, is a threat to Israel’s national security
Well, my understanding is that the ships would have been allowed through if they had allowed the Israelis to inspect the cargo and ships to make certain more dangerous items weren’t being smuggled. Am I wrong?
June 3, 2010 at 8:17 am
Mitch
Jim Buoy,
I’m sure there’s an element of collective punishment in the blockade, and that is not excusable. But I feel Israel is within its rights to monitor and disrupt the movement of weapons into Gaza.
I don’t think you’ll need to be concerned about the blockade for too much longer, period. We think differently about where world opinion falls, and I cannot imagine Israel being able to continue the blockade after the MM. I also doubt the government will survive.
June 3, 2010 at 8:34 am
Dave Kirby
This incident is more about the unholy alliances forged by parliamentary systems than about Jews and Isreal. Netanyahu has had to make deals with religious and nationalist parties in order to assure Likud’s hold on power. Some of these parties are extremist and bigots. It appears that these folks are the tail waging the dog. Maybe this incident will return the Israeli govt. back to a popular majority backed govt. and send these neo cons packing.
June 3, 2010 at 8:55 am
Mitch
Dave,
Best case scenario. At least there’d be something good to come out of this.
June 3, 2010 at 9:15 am
Jim Buoy
Eric, my question about food and sustainable living items have nothing to do with the MM raid. These are items on the list contained in the link that I put up yesterday, at 8:22, and have been in place at Israeli land blockade checkpoints all along – going back to Jan,or Feb 2006 when the blockade was initially set up. This is what we haven’t been made aware of before and apparently, is still not sinking in.
Mitch, nice idea about the blockade disappearing, but I seriously doubt it. World opinion counts for nothing with Israel, it’s what we, Israel’s enablers do, and so far the media and our politicians are four square with Israel and always have been. World opinion will have to sway us, meaning, the aforementioned media and pols. Don’t see that happening in real time or real life, sad to say.
Dave, the only problem with your scenario was voiced by someone, it might have even been Eric, and that is that the more moderate and liberal voices in Israel have already left. Then we have this .
If you understand anything about neo-cons, be they home grown or Israeli, they do not back away, they double down. The Irish ship coming with aid and how Bibi deals with it could be a good barometer.
June 3, 2010 at 10:34 am
Jim Buoy
For those who don’t normally tune in, here’s today’s video and transcript from <a href=http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/3/huwaida. Democracy Now , with some of the flotilla survivors.
June 3, 2010 at 10:37 am
Jim Buoy
Sorry .
June 3, 2010 at 11:43 am
Mitch
Comment from Israel’s ambassador to the US:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/03/opinion/03oren.html
One paragraph:
June 3, 2010 at 11:49 am
the reasonable anonymous
I really have to wonder what’s going to happen when the next aid ship, the “Rachel Corrie” arrives on the scene.
June 3, 2010 at 2:05 pm
Mr. Nice
Just like Canada investigates all the ships going in to the U.S.
June 3, 2010 at 2:32 pm
Mitch
Mr. Nice,
Last I checked, the United States hasn’t launched even one thousand missiles against Canada, let alone three (or ten) thousand. And I don’t think there’s a Canadian blockade of our ports.
We all know, or should know, that both sides will now follow scripts. The important point is that the Free Gaza Movement has scored an enormous victory. But, Mr. Nice, is it really necessary to pretend that this was about bringing in this particular load of humanitarian aid? Is it really necessary to pretend that Israel would have reneged on its promise to offload, inspect, and deliver the aid from these ships?
This was, from the start, about ending the blockade. It was more successful than the Free Gaza activists could have dreamed, thanks to the inclusion of the folks from IHH.
If Israel had been a little less stupid about throwing in collective punishment along with legitimate security concerns, it wouldn’t now have to deal with the flow of weaponry (and subsequent deaths) that will result from the lifting of the blockade.
With a little luck, the Israeli population will see that, and get rid of Netanyahu.
June 3, 2010 at 3:26 pm
Mr. Nice
Security for what? The entire state is phony. That’s like if I killed my neighbors and secured their property type of security.
But yes, hopefully they will 86 that Netanyahu dude.
June 3, 2010 at 3:52 pm
the reasonable anonymous
Mitch,
With respect to the Israeli promise to inspect, offload, and deliver these aid ships’ cargoes, the problem is that the ships were apparently bringing in supplies that were not armaments, but are still not normally allowed in under the Blockade, which, as you recognize, is NOT just a ban on weapons. So, maybe the Israelis would have let those items in, or maybe they wouldn’t have, but I can hardly blame the Free Gaza movement folks for not wanting to take their word on it and turn the stuff over to the Israelis.
And it’s a bit of an odd position for the Israelis (and Joe Biden) to claim that there’s no real issue because the ships just needed to be inspected and they would have been allowed to pass through. There IS an issue precisely because that’s not what would ordinarily happen, and there’s no reason to believe that the next shipment would receive that special treatment, unless it was accompanied by a similarly credible threat to try to run the Blocakde and had received a similar amount of embarrassing-to-Israel publicity.
Look, the whole point of the Blockade is that under normal circumstances, that cargo WOULDN’T have been let through. So their position was we’ll put aside the normal rules of the Blockade whenever you bring enough attention to the issue that we’re embarrassed. This demonstrates that the Blockade, in its current form, is simply untenable. When push comes to shove, even the Israelis can’t defend why they would want to keep those supplies out, and therefore they offer to bend the rules when the spotlight is on them (but continue to prevent routine shipments of the same type of items when the spotlight is not so bright).
That being said, I agree that this was mainly a symbolic act aimed at ending the Blockade rather than just completing the aid delivery itself. Clearly the idea was to create a no-win situation for the Israeli government: Either allow the aid ship to pass through and therefore present a picture to the world of the Blockade being circumvented, or else use some level of military force to seize the ship (even though it was almost certainly not going to be carrying any military equipment) and therefore expose this overly-broad Blockade to be about economic collective punishment, which, as you acknowlege, it is (at least in part).
In choosing the latter option, the Israeli administration and Israeli military commanders didn’t just use military force though, they botched the job spectacularly (boarding the vessels in international waters and in such a way as to leave individual soldiers vulnerable to an angry, provoked crowd, and ultimately resulting in the deaths and injuries of a number of passengers) providing the would-be Blockade-runners with a public opinion victory that I seriously doubt will be reversed by the release of a few minutes of selected video or an “investigation” run by the Israeli government itself.
I guess the best we could hope for at this point is that the Israelis radically change the terms of their blockade, essentially making it a much narrower embargo on military items. As you note, that’s the way it should have been structured in the first place.
“We’re going to put the Palestinians on a diet” was never a wise or defensible strategy, and has looked worse and worse as evidence has come out about how many Gazan kids are malnourished and so on. If the Israeli administration’s belief was that making the Palestinians in Gaza even MORE desperate by keeping them in a perpetual state of economic destitution was somehow going to lead to a decrease of extremism, well that was a monumentally stupid belief. If this is what it takes to end that policy, well then it’s very, very sad that it had to come to this, but at least something positive might emerge from this whole mess.
June 3, 2010 at 4:51 pm
olmanriver
Here is a post from Jerusaleum on how this will affect Israel’s relationship with its only Moslem ally Globe and Mail.
June 3, 2010 at 5:16 pm
olmanriver
insert from the before Globe and mail, sorry.
June 3, 2010 at 6:09 pm
Mitch
Mr. Nice writes:
You’ve put your finger on the big international joke, Mr. Nice. Exactly right. The British and the United Nations felt bad after WWII and decided the Jews should have a homeland. Then, instead of carving it out of one of the defeated nations, or finding someplace people wanted to accept a Jewish immigration, they gave the Zionists somebody else’s land.
But that was 60 years ago, Mr. Nice. Now there are “illegal immigrants” whose parents and grandparents were born there. So maybe 60 years ago it would be enough to say “[t]he entire state is phony.” But how do you take back from the grandchildren the illegitimate gift you gave the grandparents? That’s not fair either. But the cherry on top is that you, the Europeans and Allies, don’t do that; instead, for decade after decade, you complain when the grandchildren try to defend what you, the rulers of the world, gave their grandparents from the people you, the rulers of the worldstole the land from to use as a gift.
And the cherry on top of the cherry is that this is being done to the descendants of one of the world’s Holocausts.
June 3, 2010 at 6:18 pm
Joel Mielke
Well said Mitch. We may disagree on much here, but we agree that Israeli and Palestinian existence is not negotiable.
June 3, 2010 at 6:27 pm
the reasonable anonymous
Yup, it’s one hell of a mess, that’s for sure.
If, as a result of this recent fiasco, the Israeli’s change their approach from a broad economic blockade to a much more focused embargo on weapons and other military gear, that would at least be a small step in the direction of sanity. We’ll see.
June 3, 2010 at 7:04 pm
Jim Buoy
From that Globe and Mail, link:
Turkey and Israel were closer than ever. Their militaries were co-operating under a 1996 pact, holding joint exercises, sharing intelligence and buying and selling military hardware.
Yesterday, on CBS radio, on one of the daily 5 minute broadcasts from commentator, Dave Ross, this was translated for our consumption as meaning that Turkey’s present attitude will cost them the drone missiles they needed to buy from Israel to fight their Kurdish rebel problem with. Ross is sponsored by the American Jewish Committee. Just a small example of the spin and, especially, the mentality, we get.
Also from same G&M link:
Mossad director Meir Dagan has what he considers is a more realistic view. In testimony Tuesday to a Knesset committee he said that in today’s Middle East “the pragmatic camp is becoming weaker, and the radical side is gaining a certain type of power.”
Could he possibly have been referring to Israel?
June 4, 2010 at 9:04 am
Jewish Person
“The British and the United Nations felt bad after WWII and decided the Jews should have a homeland. Then, instead of carving it out of one of the defeated nations, or finding someplace people wanted to accept a Jewish immigration, they gave the Zionists somebody else’s land.”
Thank you for the warmed over Arab propaganda. In fact, Israel has been the Jewish homeland for thousands of years. It is arguably the oldest real estate claim on earth.
June 4, 2010 at 9:44 am
Mitch
I’d been wondering why you were taking so long, Jewish Person. Well, see (other) Jewish person, you’re right. There’s been a Jewish presence in the middle east for many millennia. And an Arab presence. And, for 2000 years, a Christian presence. And, as long as we’re going to get into that, the Old Testament is filled with Jews pillaging our way through the cities that Yahweh told us belonged to us, killing the inhabitants, burning the cattle they owned, and seizing the wives they owned.
Israel has now grown up enough that many Israelis are realizing that their founding myths are not 100% accurate, and that a true evil was done by the British and the UN to the Arabs.
There’s no doubt in my mind that the Palestinians have been played by their brethren Arabs, and there’s no doubt in my mind that Israel’s behavior in response to terrorism has been more noble than would have been possible from any other state. But, unfortunately, Israel’s founding meant the dispossession of many, many Palestinians. And Israel will never have a chance to live safely until all the problems that result from that “original sin” are resolved.
June 4, 2010 at 10:37 am
the reasonable anonymous
So, “Jewish Person” I guess we’ll be giving this continent back to the Native Americans pretty soon now, right?
June 4, 2010 at 11:01 am
Eric Kirk
I do think there has to be a statute of limitations, unless we should all be required to return to the national borders of 2000 years ago. The Native Americans would be happy. As would the Italians.
June 4, 2010 at 11:34 am
the reasonable anonymous
Yup. And why would we stop at 2,000 years? What about the descendants of the Cartheginians? The Phoenicians? The Macedonians who ruled such a large part of the world under Alexander the Great? Perhaps the Egyptians should get control of the whole area they had control of in 3,000 BC?
So the “Jews have a 2,000+ year claim on the land now occupied by Israel” argument is clearly quite absurd. I think it really comes down to “but God PROMISED us this piece of real estate…look here it is right here in this Book, which is of course the revealed word of God Himself, and we know that…because it’s here in this Book…” And around and around they go.
June 4, 2010 at 1:17 pm
Jewish Person
Interesting how you take license from stale propaganda to launch a round of Jew baiting.
Nevertheless, despite the best efforts of your barbaric ancestors, the Jewish people have maintained a continuous presence in Israel, our homeland, for thousands of years. We weren’t “given” our land by your guilty ancestors; it’s ours. We haven’t followed your lead and stolen land from others.
June 4, 2010 at 1:20 pm
Jim Buoy
Israel/Palestinians, South Carolina/Ragheads, phooey. The dudes and dudettes of El Blanco Rancho are not happy with their own lack of coverage on the world stage and have decided to take appropriate action.
June 4, 2010 at 1:59 pm
Mitch
Jewish Person,
Is this the sort of real estate title you would use?
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+20:16-18&version=KJV
June 4, 2010 at 2:12 pm
Mitch
Jim Buoy,
Well, thank goodness there are no racists in Prescott, Arizona. Imagine what would be happening if there were.
June 4, 2010 at 2:24 pm
Jewish Person
“Is this the sort of real estate title you would use?”
You’re reading the King James Bible to learn Jewish history?
You’ve been spending too much time in church.
June 4, 2010 at 2:58 pm
the reasonable anonymous
Ah yes, of course any disagreement with the magical god-given land title must be “jew-baiting.” On the other hand everyone else’s ancestry is “barbaric.” As opposed to those peaceful and enlightened folks portrayed in the Old Testament, who of couse NEVER displaced other cultures and slaughtered their peoples. The land just “is” theirs, magically and forever. Uh-huh.
June 4, 2010 at 3:07 pm
the reasonable anonymous
By the way, my “barbaric” ancestors were mostly Irish, and none of my ancestors were of Middle Eastern descent. So I’m not sure how my “barbaric” ancestors were responsible for the Middle East mess, or why that would even be relevant, as if I’m responsible for the actions of my long-ago ancestors.
Oh now I get it, anyone opposed to the magical god-given land title that justified taking land away from the Palestinians since the founding of modern Israel simply MUST be an Arab or Muslim, right? And calling them “barbaric” is par for the course for anti-Arab and anti-Muslim bigots these days, I guess.
June 4, 2010 at 3:31 pm
Jim Buoy
The Rachel Corrie is due in Gaza Saturday AM, with 9 activists on board. Bibi vows to stop it/them. One little ship vs all the might of the IDF. Too bad Leon Uris isn’t around to write a book about it. This should be one of Israel’s finest fifteen minutes to a half-hour.
June 4, 2010 at 4:41 pm
Jewish Person
The purpose of the Rachel Corrie and the other ships is to delegitimize Israel and clear the way for more rocket shipments to the thugs who have taken over Gaza. 10,000 rockets to date have been fired into Israel from Gaza.
You are about to get a lesson in how Israel deals with Jew baiting…
June 4, 2010 at 4:43 pm
the reasonable anonymous
I expect that we’ll see the Israelis use a lot more soldiers, and that they will avoid using deadly force at all costs. I also expect that the activists on board will take pains to be TOTALLY non-violent in their resistance. While a few days ago, I was worried about what might happen with this ship, I am now guessing that this will NOT be any kind of bloodbath.
The Israelis continue to be in the very tricky position that they put themselves in when they decided to have a broad economic blockade, rather than a simple embargo on arms shipments. If they let the ship through, that will raise the question of what was the point of stopping the last ship at such a bloody cost.
If they board it seize it and don’t let the cargo through, even though there are no weapons on board, that will reinforce the (accurate) message of the Free Gaza folks that the Israeli blockade is not (just) about weapons shipments, but is in fact an illegal blockade of non-military supplies, including humanitarian supplies, construction materials, food, medical supplies, etc.
If they seize the ship, and then allow the cargo to be delivered, that will highlight the idiocy of banning these items from regular shipments, but then letting them through only when the global press is watching. And of course it will certainly create an incentive for further activist/protester-oriented aid ships, if that is the only way to get the stuff through.
Let’s face it, the Israeli’s need to drop their economic blockade and focus on stopping weapons and military supplies. “Putting Gazans on a ‘diet’” has done nothing to weaken Hamas, and has left Israel even more isolated than ever. I don’t expect they’ll admit error, but I do expect (or at least hope) that they will change their blockade policy to a more narrowly-focused arms embargo. What choice do they have? Continue facing protest/aid ship after protest/aid ship? Do they think the Free Gaza movement is just going to give up? They can’t be that stupid. At least I hope not.
I’m guessing that a decision to change the policy has likely already been made, and they are just waiting for a quieter moment to put that change into place, so it looks (a little) less like they were forced to back down.
June 4, 2010 at 5:05 pm
Mitch
Jewish Person,
I’m usually pretty sensitive to “Jew baiting,” and I agree that there’s often plenty of it in discussions of Israel. If my Biblical citation struck you that way, I apologize. But I’m confused as to what in the messages since your 9:04 strikes you as “Jew baiting.” Care to explain?
June 4, 2010 at 5:33 pm
the reasonable anonymous
I generally prefer to discuss the actions of the Israeli government, and try to avoid generalizing the mistakes of that government, and particularly its very destructive right wing, to all Jews, or even a majority of them.
The trouble arrives when someone like JP raises the argument that “Jews” have some special right to take over lands occupied by Palestinians in the recent past, based on the fact that “Jews” occupied that same territory in the distant past and have had some presence in that area all along. It’s hard to discuss that aspect without referring to some of the more ridiculous beliefs of those who take the Old Testament literally, beliefs that underly and, in their minds, justify their real estate claims.
But I guess I should note that I find a lot of Muslim and Christian dogmas equally ridiculous. People are welcome to believe these things if they want, and I’ll generally refrain from ridiculing them out of common courtesy, but when they raise these beliefs as some kind of evidence of claims here in the real world, well then we’re gonna have to talk about those beliefs and the believers may not like what I have to say.
This is equally true whether you’re talking about imaginary angry sky daddies who supposedly want women to cover every inch of their bodies because He made men unable to control themselves, or imaginary angry sky daddies who supposedly hate gay people, or imaginary angry sky daddies who supposedly give permission to wipe out adjacent cultures and “give” their chosen ones permanent magical title to those lands as a reward.
So if I’m “Jew-baiting,” I guess I’m also Muslim-baiting, Christian-baiting, Scientologist-baiting, etc. Equal opportunity baiting, I guess you could call that the “South Park” defense.
June 4, 2010 at 7:49 pm
Joel Mielke
Mitch, if one were to call “Jewish Person” is an asshole, he would call it jew baiting. It’s like using the blogonym “Semite.” Anybody who disagrees with you is an anti-Semite. But only an asshole would do that.
June 4, 2010 at 8:54 pm
Mitch
Jewish Person,
Yes, I generally google for Biblical citations, and the KJV is the first one to appear. I don’t keep a copy of the Torah lying around the house. I’m proud to be a secular Jew who, like most Jews today, thinks the Old Testament is more myth than history. I’m also proud to say that if I could have a few minutes alone in a room with the God of the Old Testament, one of us would come out with, at the least, a black eye. I think that’s a very Jewish attitude. And after the Holocaust, I’m very dubious of any Jew who asserts they still believe in an omnipotent God worth worshiping.
I’ve been to church precisely once in my life — midnight mass at Fordham University, with a Catholic friend. That’s once more than I’ve been to a synagogue since my Bar Mitzvah, with the exception of other Bar Mitzvahs.
I’m a supporter of Israel, and went to hebrew (after)school for five years, where I was taught how to chant my Torah portion with correct pronunciation and melody and pretend I knew what the words meant. Nobody, certainly not the rabbi, the cantor, or my parents, cared if I knew what the words meant. I collected tzedakah for trees for Israel. I think Israel is a far superior nation to most, contributing more to the world per capita than any other I can think of. I think the world’s condemnation of Israel is a statement about the world, not about Israel. I think the world’s failure to respect Israel’s continuing attempts to deal with continuing terrorism without wiping out hundreds of times more civilians than it has is complete proof of worldwide anti-semitism.
But. Big but. In my opinion, the Palestinians have a legitimate complaint. That’s not what I was taught in hebrew school, but I don’t believe it’s an opinion based on propaganda. If the Palestinian leadership had been more capable, perhaps Israel and the Palestinians would have come to peace long ago. But it didn’t, and that doesn’t change the validity of the Palestinian’s complaint.
June 4, 2010 at 9:01 pm
Mitch
“You are about to get a lesson in how Israel deals with Jew baiting…”
What lesson, Jewish Person? That Jews can act like thugs, just like non-Jews?
June 4, 2010 at 9:27 pm
the reasonable anonymous
Ah, but if the angry imaginary sky daddy gives you permission to act like a thug, then it’s not really thuggery. It’s pretty much axiomatic.
June 4, 2010 at 10:27 pm
Provingthepudding
Partial list of Gaza Prohibited Items: sage, cardamom, cumin, coriander, ginger, jam, halva, vinegar, nutmeg, chocolate, fruit preserves, seeds and nuts, biscuits and sweets, potato chips, gas for soft drinks, dried fruit, fresh meat, plaster, tar, wood for construction, cement, iron, clucose, industrial salt, plastic/glass/metal containers, industrial margarine, tarpaulin sheets for huts, fabric for clothing, flavor and smell enhancers, fishing rods, various fishing nets, buoys, ropes for fishing, nylon nets for greenhouses, hatcheries and spare parts for hatcheries, dairies for cowsheds, irrigation pipe systems, ropes to tie greenhouses, planters for saplings, heaters for chicken farms, musical instruments, size A4 paper, writing implements, notebooks, newspapers, toys, razors, sewing machines and spare parts, heaters, horses, donkeys, goats, cattle, chicks
witness gaza.com has the Rachel Corrie stopped about our time 11:10 but not yet boarded. Who wants to be on the next flotilla? I’ll bring the newspapers.
June 4, 2010 at 10:38 pm
the reasonable anonymous
Yeah, that’s a wee bit overbroad for a blockade that they keep trying to justify on the basis of concerns over weapons.
June 5, 2010 at 6:40 am
Jim Buoy
What pisses me off is how none of what’s on that list of not allowed , non-weapon, commodities by the Israel’s Palestinian blockade for 53 goddamn months ever makes it’s way into our so called, free range, liberal, Main Stream Media. You have to go to the UK, Democracy Now, and, God forbid, Al Jazeera, to get this info. All we get through our own AIPAC/AJC filtered, MSM blockade, and from our clueless VP, is ” weapons-search blockade”. Period. I have no problem with Israel stopping weapons coming in. It’s that fucking media blockade I want lifted. I’m sick of being treated like a Palestinian in my own country.
And,’ Jewish Person’, can your pony do another trick?
June 5, 2010 at 10:48 am
Jewish Person
What hypocrisy! 10,000 rockets fired into Israel and all we hear are complaints about Israel. Silence on N. Korea, Iran, Tibet, Nigeria, Sudan etc.
Name one country that will permit a flotilla of ships to land without inspection.
June 5, 2010 at 10:54 am
Jewish Person
“… the Old Testament is more myth than history.”
So of course you quote it as history–Christian history–to malign the Jews. Your hero King James expelled the Jews from England.
June 5, 2010 at 3:08 pm
textwrapper
The stubbornly idiotic “Jewish Person” seems to be unaware that Gaza is occupied. That means that the Israelis are in charge. They own the complaint box.
June 5, 2010 at 3:20 pm
Joel Mielke
As for the farcical, storybook claims to Israel, I doubt that we’re going to start using magical ancient texts to honor claims on real estate anytime soon. For those who want a snapshot of the history of the Middle East, one could do worse than this one.
June 5, 2010 at 3:40 pm
Mitch
OK, Jewish Person. You won’t get any disagreement from me about the world’s hypocrisy vis a vis Israel.
You’ve said there’s been a continuous Jewish presence in Israel for thousands of years. True, as far as I know. But, as far as I understand, it was only with the War of Independence that Israel became a “Jewish state,” — that is, a state which was open to any Jew from around the world, but from which Palestinians who fled could be excluded from re-entry.
Is that accurate? If not, why?
June 5, 2010 at 3:50 pm
Eric Kirk
I do think the whole “land without a people for a people without a land” meme has always been bullshit. As I’ve said, the Jewish state should have been placed in Germany – maybe the whole Bavaria.
June 5, 2010 at 4:45 pm
Jewish Person
As Ben Gurion said, “the Jew who fails to define himself will be defined by the worst elements of the community.” We’re seeing some of those “elements” surfacing here, along with cooked up maps, rewritten history and indignant claims that Jews have no right to a home in their own homeland, Israel. Last week officials in the Lithuanian govt. explained that their native Jewish population, 97% of whom were murdered during the Holocaust, were not citizens of Lithuania. That’s a common claim in Europe, especially in the east.
The notion that Jews are eternal usurpers–even in Israel– hearkens back to the “rootless cosmopolitan” slander that was perpetrated by the Nazis. To see it dredged up here to justify support for a murderous gang of thugs who have fired 10,000 missiles into Israel, speaks volumes.
As for Germany, you can have it. It has no right to exist as an independent state.
June 5, 2010 at 6:35 pm
Mitch
Jewish Person,
(Repeating.)
You’ve said there’s been a continuous Jewish presence in Israel for thousands of years. True, as far as I know. But, as far as I understand, it was only with the War of Independence that Israel became a “Jewish state,” — that is, a state which was open to any Jew from around the world, but from which Palestinians who fled could be excluded from re-entry.
Is that accurate? If not, why?
June 5, 2010 at 8:35 pm
the reasonable anonymous
Joel, that map/timeline you linked to at 3:20 is awesome.
http://www.mapsofwar.com/ind/imperial-history.html
June 5, 2010 at 8:36 pm
the reasonable anonymous
Oh, so I meant to say Thanks, Joel.
June 6, 2010 at 6:41 am
Joel Mielke
Thanks for reposting the map, TRA. And Mitch, trying to argue with “Jewish Person” is like arguing with Holocaust deniers. You simply cannot penetrate the bulwarks of calcified belief and stubborn ignorance. You scratch your head and wonder how a human being could end up with such callous disrespect and disregard for other human beings.
June 6, 2010 at 8:09 am
Jim Buoy
I don’t find Jewish Person’s personality that difficult to understand, Joel. Maddeningly obtuse, yes. Unfathomable, no. The Jews have been a persecuted and maligned people for centuries. In the 20th century alone they were the subjects of mass extermination, not only by the Nazis, but in Russia and other countries most people have forgotten about. Not to put too lightly a term on this it is fair to say they have been a systematically abused race/ethnic culture for a very long time. Of this there is no question.
As any psychologist who has deal with abused children or wives could tell you, the abused can become abusers themselves, or at the very least, become hypersensitive to anything that reminds them of that abuse. eg, JP’s “10,000 rockets”
Imho, this is a root part of the problem within Israel and it’s psychosis has spread even to here. While some on this thread go on about their final solution territorial arguments and view this flotilla incident as just a “public relations nightmare”, or a “shot in the foot” by Israel, they themselves either, deliberately, or subconsciously, avoid dealing with it’s more immediate and humanitarian implications. It’s akin to having an argument about what size levies should be constructed around New Orleans on the day after Katrina. Who cares about that now? Human beings need food and shelter and a restoration to some kind of hope for a future. Or else the same systemic cycle of abuse by the formerly abused will just keep repeating itself, which creates more abused who repeat in ever widening ripples. The mid-east in a nutshell right about now. It may already be too firmly and irrevocably entrenched. That is the real issue of the flotilla but it seems to have flown right over some intellects, perhaps for individually different reasons. There are all sorts of deniers. While JP may be the most prominent, s/he is not the only one.
June 6, 2010 at 10:17 am
Mitch
Jim Buoy,
Yes, I do think your 8:09 post is anti-semitic. I guess that means I’m psychotic (for totally understandable reasons, of course).
June 6, 2010 at 11:20 am
Joel Mielke
How so, Mitch?
June 6, 2010 at 12:06 pm
Mitch
Joel,
People get PTSD, cultures don’t.
In my opinion, there are completely real ways in which Israel, over decades, has tried to make peace without being matched by a Palestinian partner.
In my opinion, Israel has responded to terrorism, over decades, with enormous restraint. That’s partly because I think Israelis are reasonable, and partly because Israel recognizes the worldwide (and internal) publicity constraints under which it operates. I think the last decade has largely resulted from Israelis coming to the conclusion that nothing they do will solve the issue or bring them into the community of nations, so “fuck the Palestinians.”
I don’t believe Israelis or Jews, are, in general, abusers because of abuse they /we have suffered. I certainly don’t think there’s a cultural psychosis amongst Jews of multiple nationalities.
I think the current government of Israel is a stupid right wing mess. Israel has had much more negotiations-oriented governments, but some leaders have been assassinated and others have been voted out of office when they stake their reputations on a particular negotiation and it collapses, usually due to Palestinian misjudgment.
Again, I think the Palestinians have a legitimate complaint from the time of Israel’s founding. I think the Gaza blockade is both a humanitarian nightmare and a strategic failure. But I agree with the cliche that the Palestinians have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
June 6, 2010 at 12:23 pm
Joel Mielke
Mitch, Anti-Semitism is bandied about much, but I see no evidence that Jim Buoy is an anti-Semite. If you want to render the word meaningless, just keep using it.
“…there are completely real ways in which Israel, over decades, has tried to make peace without being matched by a Palestinian partner.”
Israel always complains about not having a partner while at the same time making sure that they won’t have a partner, through assassination or simple refusal to negotiate.
I agree with the rest of your comment, and even when I disagree, I appreciate your thoughts.
June 6, 2010 at 1:48 pm
Mitch
Joel,
Different backgrounds at work. I’m confident it was an anti-semitic post. I understand why you might feel differently.
Imagine if someone patronizingly explained that they understood why blacks are muggers… it’s because of slavery.
June 6, 2010 at 1:48 pm
Eric Kirk
In my opinion, there are completely real ways in which Israel, over decades, has tried to make peace without being matched by a Palestinian partner.
Actually, the best hope was in Issam Satawi. Until he was killed by his former associates.
June 6, 2010 at 2:06 pm
Mitch
Thanks for the link, Eric. If I ever heard of Issam Sartawi, I’ve since forgotten.
On a very different topic, has anyone seen the Iranian animated movie Persepolis? I watched half of it last night, and it’s remarkable. It tells the story of an Iranian family from the fall of the Shah onwards.
June 6, 2010 at 2:44 pm
the reasonable anonymous
Just to remind everyone, Rabin was assasinated by a right-wing extreminst. Result: The Israeli goverment rewarded it’s extreme right wing by backing away from any serious attempts at peace, while allowing the right wingers to continue the illegal settlement building that is such a major impediment to establishing trust and the potential for good faith negotiations. The Israeli right learned their lesson: extremism pays off, so if you don’t want peace on the terms being offered, you can always disrupt it with a few acts of violent extremism. Of course that’s a lesson learned long ago by the extremists on the Palestinian side, with similarly disasterous results.
If peace is to be achieved, the more moderate elements on both sides will have to come to terms with the fact that, whatever the details of any peace agreement, extremists on both sides will oppose it, most likely with acts of violent extremism on one side or on both sides. The moderate leaders on both sides must prepare people to expect this kind of reaction, and both the leaders and the people must be prepared to NOT overreact to the acts of provocation from the other side by committing acts of revenge that will escalate to the point where the peace agreement fails (as extremists on both sides will be rooting for, as always).
Basically the pre-condition for any lasting peaceful scenario to succeed is that a substantial majority of both Palestinians and Israelis realize and acknowledge that the extremists on BOTH sides (not just the “opposing” side) are the only real enemy, because those extremists on both sides are the major impediment to peace.
I’m not really a believer in the power of prayer, but if anyone out there wants to offer prayers that this peace shall come to pass, and soon…well, I guess it couldn’t hurt to ask.
June 6, 2010 at 3:08 pm
Jim Buoy
Thank you for your assessment that I am an anti-Semite, Mitch. Obviously you made that diagnosis before you clicked the link and therefor didn’t need to. If you had gone there it gives a run down of Israel’s reactions to terrorism over the past several years, which you call restraint. To wit:
In my opinion, Israel has responded to terrorism, over decades, with enormous restraint. That’s partly because I think Israelis are reasonable, and partly because Israel recognizes the worldwide (and internal) publicity constraints under which it operates.
I think it is about time someone calls bullshit on you, Mitch. While you try very hard to act like a reasonable person, in this flotilla thread, at any rate, I do not know you from any other, you continue to downgrade the full ramifications of Israel’s actions, this latest in a long series of actions, as being little more than a serious PR failure or intelligence screwup. Bullshit on you, Mitch. 9 people died. 5 of them have rear entry bullet wounds normally found with execution style killings – at close range. Even members of their Naval Reserve have registered their protest of what has happened here.
Thirteen Israeli’s were killed by those idiotic Hasam, whatever, rockets than JP complains about and Israel restraintedly responds by killing 1400 Palestinians. Bullshit, Mitch, just, plain bullshit. And when has Israel ever been constrained by world opinion? If you look at the media freak-out in this country, Turkey, is now being blamed for all of this and of course, Israel is our greatest ally. Bullshit. Bullshit. and more bullshit. I spent some time in the military, Mitch, even engaged in military maneuvers with the Turks as part of NATO. They are a tough and reliable force to have at your back. I wouldn’t know about the IDF, never had any similar exposure. And I don’t believe Turkey has ever engaged in espionage against their BFF, the good ‘ol US of A, like Israel has. With restraint, I’m sure.
And, BTW, when did Israel, or the Jews, get the copyright on the word, anti-Semitic. I believe Arabs are also Semites, no?
June 6, 2010 at 3:43 pm
Mitch
It may strike you as splitting hairs, Jim, but I do not know if you are an anti-semite. But I do believe that your post was anti-semitic.
June 6, 2010 at 4:17 pm
Joel Mielke
And again through such usage, anti-Semitic is becoming meaningless.
June 6, 2010 at 4:51 pm
the reasonable anonymous
If the argument was that Jews or Israelis are more likely than other groups to repond to their historical oppression by oppressing others, I’d certainly see such an argument as inherently anti-Semetic. But I don’t think that the post above made was intended to make such a claim. I understand that you may have inferred that intent to the author, Mitch, but it’s not clear to me that the author intended to imply that. But I agree that trying to apply PTSD psychology to whole nations of people is not really appropriate or particularly enlightening.
June 6, 2010 at 4:54 pm
the reasonable anonymous
“….inferred that intent to the author…” should say “inferred that this was the author’s intent.
June 6, 2010 at 5:14 pm
Jim Buoy
Believe what you will, Mitch, I’ll be the first to admit that I don’t even know what the term means anymore, nor will I be muzzled by it. It’s like the word, Fascist, these days. Usually, it’s a projection of the hurler’s own attitude.
Here’s a little piece in Haaretz about the political aftermath of the flotilla raid in Israel. You and Dave were believing that this Israeli foot-shot would change things, hopefully for the better, in Israel? Looks like, not so much. The neo-cons are doubling down with the rest of the reasonable rabble joining in. Just like I said would happen. Maybe some of us anti-Semitic writing folk understand more than you do about the current psychosis rampant there. Exactly like our own 9/11 build-up for the Iraq invasion.
You also made this statement, Mitch:
I think Israel is a far superior nation to most, contributing more to the world per capita than any other I can think of.
That sounds great, except I am puzzled then why Israel continues to be the number one recipient of US foreign aid in the world. Hell, I’ll just let the video explain things.
June 6, 2010 at 5:26 pm
the reasonable anonymous
What happened with the supply ship that was dubbed ‘”the Rachel Corrie?”
June 6, 2010 at 5:54 pm
K at the bookstore
The Rachel Corrie did not respond to orders to turn back or to divert to Ashdod; she was boarded by the IDF in international waters and taken to Ashdod, her crew was placed under arrest. Latest word is that the Malaysians on the crew reached home early today, having been deported; the Irish activists, including the woman who won the Nobel Peace Prize some years back for her work in Northern Ireland, are expected to be in Ireland Monday morning early. No one has heard directly from anyone on the Rachel Corrie yet, we are waiting.
Future attempts to break the blockade are being organized now.
June 6, 2010 at 6:00 pm
the reasonable anonymous
Thanks for the update. Sounds like there wasn’t any bloodshed this time, thankfully. Sadly, that’s probably why there hasn’t been much news of it. No wonder people resort to active resistance to violent enforcement of the blockade. The more passive, completely non-violent resistance gets totally ignored in the media.
June 6, 2010 at 7:18 pm
anonymous
Jim Bouy, Thanks for posting the video on Us financial aid to Israel. WOW, is all I can say.
Jewish Person’s swaggering threat sounds a little hollow after watching that.
June 6, 2010 at 7:48 pm
K at the bookstore
I don’t know if people saw the autopsy reports from the 9 activists; the reports were pretty widely carried by international media but I didn’t see much (or anything, come to think of it) in US media. 30 bullets, 9mm. (and one strange one the doctors said they hadn’t seen before, pellets that scattered on impact in the brain) The people appeared to have been shot at close range, in the head, in the chest. Some of the wounds were in the back of the head. The young Turkish/American had I think 5 bullets/wounds, mostly in the head, one in the heart.
With the Rachel Corrie (and yes, thank heaven there was not use of weapons–except, perhaps, as threat; after all armed IDF boarded and took the ship to a port they had said they did not wish to go to, in international waters)–it is interesting that apparently the IDF refused to use the Rachel Corrie name; they referred to the ship as Linda, which was the original name before it was renamed for the young activist.
June 6, 2010 at 7:59 pm
the reasonable anonymous
The IDF’s dissing of Rachel Corrie, even now, years after her death, is repugnant. It also shows how very meaningful her sacrifice turned out to be: Her story is so potent that the IDF fears to even mention her name. RIP Ms. Corrie, your legacy lives on.
June 7, 2010 at 8:43 am
Jewish Person
“Future attempts to break the blockade are being organized now.”
That should read: Future attempts to clear the way for Iranian missile shipments are being organized now.
But spin away. Nobody is fooled. The bile, conspiracy theories and anti-semitic drivel above is par for the course whenever Israel is discussed here.
Still waiting for the name of one country that permits uninspected naval convoys to land.
June 7, 2010 at 9:33 am
Jim Buoy
This is an eyewitness account of the raid on the Mavi Mamara . Caution. It’s from a British citizen news producer for AL Jazeera with an Arabic name, so his credibility is obviously questionable, especially, when compared to those carefully edited-down captured videos from the IDF command showing that IDF trademark “restraint”. Disregard the autopsies.
For some counterbalance we have <a href= http://en.netanyahu.org.il/news/310/243/PM-Palestinians-waging-unacceptable-economic-war/. this take on who is really responsible for the economic war/blockade, though I don’t think he’s referring to Gaza, which, as far as Bibi is concerned, doesn’t exist. Except for when rockets come out of it.
You decide.
June 7, 2010 at 10:42 am
olmanriver
.
Counterpunch breaches MSM news blackout.
June 7, 2010 at 10:44 am
olmanriver
.Sorry.
June 7, 2010 at 11:03 am
Joel Mielke
“…spin away. Nobody is fooled.”
Yes, but “Jewish Person” keeps on trying.
June 7, 2010 at 3:32 pm
Jim Buoy
Still waiting for the name of one country that permits uninspected naval convoys to land.
I didn’t know Gaza was part of Israel, JP? Thanks for the Beta edition geography lesson. When can we expect the West Bank upgrade?
June 7, 2010 at 4:15 pm
anonymous
The best thing Jewish Person could do for Israel is to keep her prejudiced and idiotic opinions off to herself. Her intellectual dishonesty is apparent to all but the most myopic of readers but far more damaging to her alleged cause is the trademark snide arrogance toward anyone not Jewish. JP is like an eager caricature of the self-centered, intolerant, superior Jew of Hamas propaganda fame.
June 7, 2010 at 7:05 pm
Eric Kirk
An aside, here’s the video that got Helen Thomas into trouble. Bummer.
June 7, 2010 at 7:24 pm
anonymous
Helen Thomas’ comments are thoughtlessly simplistic and regrettable but she is expressing many peoples increasing frustration with Israel’s inhumane behavior towards her Arab neighbors. The more Israel shows its callous disregard for non-Jewish lives, the less viable her claim to a homeland in the Middle East. What was unthinkable a few years back now a feels like a valid question. Is a Jewish State in the Middle East sustainable?
June 7, 2010 at 8:00 pm
the reasonable anonymous
Re: Helen Thomas.
This is very sad. First of all because her comment was SO uitterly wrongheaded and incredibly insensitive, not to mention totally counterproductive to the goal of peace and reconciliation.
She has been quite an accomplished journalist, and it’s unfortunate that her career has ended with such an out-of-character remark. I mean, she’s always been plenty fiesty, especially in recent years, but I never saw her say something so mean-spirited before.
She’d gradually been getting a little wackier and a little wackier for some time now. However, interspersed with the wackiness have been some wonderfully outside-the-mainstream type questions that no one else could have gotten away with asking the President. Well, c’est la vie. I just hope she is remembered more for her many years of solid journalism, not this one out-of-character outburst.
June 7, 2010 at 9:00 pm
Jewish Person
“Is a Jewish State in the Middle East sustainable?”
The real question is: can Hamas and their radical Muslim ilk get along with anyone? While you obsess about Israel (while ignoring daily atrocities in Sudan, Somalia, Pakistan, and Iran) the Muslim fundamentalists you mindlessly defend are at war with their neighbors in Indonesia, The Philippines, Pakistan, Iran, the Caucuses, Sudan, New York City–and now in Europe. You might ask: who do they NOT hate?
Israel is in the front lines of an international struggle against Muslim fundamentalism. If Israel were to fall, the front lines–the “honor killings,” genital mutilations and forced marriages–that now infect Denmark and Norway–will move closer to you.
June 7, 2010 at 9:32 pm
Jim Buoy
Now that Helen Thomas is gone we can look forward to some really tough and germane questions from the press.
Her leaving is sad in so many ways, but she needed to leave.
Conversely, someone who called Supreme Court Justice, David Souter, “a goat fucking child molester” gets hired by CNN as a political commentator.
And then there’s everybody’s favorite political talk show bigot, Pat Buchanan. Just keep repeating, Fair and balanced. Fair and balanced.
June 7, 2010 at 10:32 pm
Joel Mielke
“If Israel were to fall, the front lines… will move closer to you.”
Incredibly, “Jewish Person” just gets nuttier.
June 7, 2010 at 10:52 pm
the reasonable anonymous
I think JP may just be a caricature created by someone who is actually trying to expose how ridiculous some of Israel’s more strident and less thoughtful defenders can be as they chant their dogmatic beliefs over and over again. If so, JP is doing a bang-up job!
June 7, 2010 at 11:01 pm
the reasonable anonymous
As proof that there are individuals as dogmatic and unrealistic on the other side of the fence, too, I point you to this post from TPM:
———————————————————————-
JW checks in from the screechy sectarian left …
The fact that Jews were relentlessly persecuted by European Christians for seventeen hundred years by no stretch of the imagination gave them the right to go and do exactly the same thing to another innocent people. If Americans are so passionate about such a relic of the nineteenth century as the ethno-religious state, then by all means let us give New York to the Jews; Palestine was never ours to give away.
But what has been happening for the past seventy years is the Palestinians have been paying for the antisemitism of Americans and Europeans. Eight hundred thousand people were ethnically cleansed in 1948 in order to create the right population for a “Jewish liberal democracy” in the Middle East by quite your standard grade Ameropean imperialists. And the people of that colonialist state have been psychotically trying to get rid of the rest of the Palestinians ever since, in the name of their evil deities or whatever.
The Jews getting kicked out of Iran, Iraq, etc. was all a response to that original horrific example of Ameropean hubris. So the solution is not “along the green line” as you suggest, especially since the Israelis themselves have proven over and over again that they will never settle for this. The solution needs to be paid for by us imperialists, not our victims. If you really want to do some good, let’s start talking about U.S. government programs to resettle Jews in America.
—————————————————————-
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2010/06/voices.php#more?ref=fpblg
SO, We’ve got screechy sectarian (or parody of one) JP defending Israel, and screechy sectarian (or parody of one) JW attacking Israel. This must be the objective journalistic balance they’re always going on about. No doubt reasonable compromise must be right around the corner. Heh.
June 8, 2010 at 8:12 am
Jim Buoy
Eric, has made the comment, several times, that the Jews should have been given part of Germany – Bavaria. Irony being what it is, there has been a fairly large influx of Eastern Europe Jews, mainly from Russia, immigrating to Germany since 1991,[the tearing down of the Berlin Wall] Over time, that has presented a difficult situation for both the German Jewish community and for Israel, which wants to be seen as the Jewish homeland. In 2005, on both these entities urgings, the German government had to start restricting the number of Russian Jewish immigrants through tougher literacy, age and means qualifications.
The biggest problem for the German Jews was that, because of their long exposure to the Soviet anti-religious system, Russian Jews see themselves as Jews in ethnic identity only. They are totally oblivious, or uninterested, in Jewish traditions and beliefs and weren’t participants in the very active German Jewish community. Israel has less of a problem with Jewish tradition participation and probably wishes to remain a secular society. It may have been concerned about an Orthodox fundamentalists problem of it’s own, and/or, just wanted to pack the numbers in Palestine/Israel. That was the situation as of 5 years ago.
tra,
I do not read the comments of JW cited above as an attack against Israel, but more of an attack against western imperialism; America, et al, and our “anti-Semitism”. Instead of giving Israel $3 billion in foreign aid, and an additional $300 million in military aid, like this year, we could be using that money to resettle Jews here instead? New York is a possibility but, Mississippi, might be a better fit. Jewish ingenuity could work wonders with the place, and eventually, we’d have two less welfare state to support. Only problem, there would surely be rocket attacks from the fanatic Evangelical Republic states of Alabama, Arkansas, Louisiana, and Tennessee and from within the militant terrorist Redneck Resettlement camps in Philadelphia and Biloxi.
I hear Iceland’s population is vacating.
June 8, 2010 at 8:35 am
Jewish Person
“Russian Jews see themselves as Jews in ethnic identity only. They are totally oblivious, or uninterested, in Jewish traditions and beliefs…”
Tell that to Natan Sharansky.
Resettlement plans for “troublesome” Jews…where have we heard that before?
June 13, 2010 at 5:47 am
Mitch
Another hundred dead, and more thousands fled:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/14/world/asia/14kyrgyz.html
June 15, 2010 at 11:10 am
olmanriver
Who is Afraid of a Real Inquiry? Counterpunch asks some good questions.
June 15, 2010 at 5:40 pm
olmanriver
Thanks to everyone, I learned a great deal from all the perspectives and links, really, a cut above most threads on the topic.