I’m drafting something up about tonight’s Richardson Grove forum. I figured others might want to chime in with thoughts before I finished.
By the way, STAA stands for Surface Transportation Assistance Act. I didn’t know that.
….
So the panel convinced me, or would have had I not already been convinced, that the public process has been wholly deficient, and the EIR probably inadequate. Ken Miller made a good case for the argument that the PR has only addressed the micro-issue and not taken a more broad approach to policy in terms of alternative means of getting goods in and out of the county, nor discussing the fact that STAA truck projects are in process up and down the coast.
What I’m not convinced of is that the project will have any serious environmental impact, either as far as the trees are concerned, or increased traffic. I certainly don’t believe that the project will turn 101 into another I-5. I remain agnostic as to whether small business or big business would be the primary beneficiaries of the larger trucks and associated reduction of costs due to offloading. Someone asked whether small businesses might actually acquire a “competitive advantage” against big boxes. The panelists rolled their eyes and Lauren said that the question had already been answered, but I don’t remember the answer. Their response was that Home Depot and WalMart are pushing the project, so therefor it must be to their advantage rather than small business.
A number of alternatives were offered from the proposed short sea shipping to lights on each end of the grove allowing the larger trucks sole use of the road for certain hours at night.
We didn’t hear from any businesses in favor of the project, though Dr. Miller did address comment from Cypress Grove Cheese who say that the offloading adds over a dollar a pound for their high end cheese. Dr. Miller responded that the people in Marin County have enough money to pay the higher prices.
Nobody addressed a recent occurrence involving the North Coast Coop in which a refrigerator was broken during an offloading incident. Of course, an accident like that could happen when unloading at the store itself. But it’s a story which has been circulating which will probably get some discussion in the future.
When asked about the impact on Eureka traffic, Carol Dyer noted that there is an “STAA choke point” at the intersection of Broadway and 5th Streets, which begs a few questions about how the big boxes in Crescent City will benefit in the absence of some sort of Eureka bypass. But it wouldn’t be an issue for the Marina Center, nor any big box in Fortuna. And of course it wouldn’t have solved the Coop’s problem at either location. Would the trucks be sent down residential streets? The coastline?
Concern for the roots of the trees was a consistent theme, as we all know that redwoods have shallow roots. Someone compared the roots to peoples’ toes or something, a point which was lost on me. There was skepticism about the promises of the technology being used. There was aesthetic objection to the proposed retaining wall. The owners of Singing Trees and Bigfoot chimed in not only in opposition to the project, but to what they described as the non-responsiveness of CalTrans in discussing mitigations which might help their businesses during any construction project.
The primary theme however was to “preserve the buffer.” Right now the trees are preventing big boxes and over-development. They said that once the access is improved we “can never go back,” although if maintaining a physical buffer or interference is the goal, maybe we shouldn’t depend on the trees. Maybe we should just tear up the freeway and construct something like Lombard street coming down the Leggett grade. It would be safer.
Apparently CalTrans has offered nothing in terms of an analysis of exposure to STAA truck accidents. Jeff Hedin argued the hypocrisy of spending so much money to prevent terrorism when our highways kill so many more people. I think it was Jeff who brought up the damage the trucks cause to the roads and asked rhetorically who would pay for it. And actually, I once read that commercial trucks in general, not necessarily just the larger trucks, cause something like 90 percent of the road wear and tear, but between taxes and fees they pay for less than 20 percent of the price – a reality typical of a country which socializes the costs and risks, but privatize the profits. Yes, we do subsidize the trucking industry. Perhaps it’s sound economic policy, but the free marketers are never around to protest the socialism.
Another rallying cry tonight – the STAA trucks will “dominate the goods movement industry.”
As someone who is partially supportive of the opposition, but also skeptical about some of the claims, and as I’m getting older, I’m finding less use for “forums” which involve a one-sided panel making the soundbites which generate a Baptist worship style sing-a-long, but where we don’t actually learn much that is new. It’s not the fault of one side. I understand that project supporters attended the EPIC forum up north last week, but sat stone faced rather than participate in the discussion. Everybody prefers to preach to the choir. What I’d like to see on this issue and other local issues, such as the GPU, Marina Center Proposal, and even national issues like health care, are more debate panel discussions with questions from all sides (very often there are more than two). The questions tonight weren’t very challenging in my opinion, sometimes mindlessly conflating issues like radioactive waste and military policy. At least nobody linked medical marijuana or corporate personhood to the issue. Instead we had cries from the audience, “how about the moths? How about the salamanders?”
An amusing anecdote from the back of the room. When Felix stood up and referenced Home Depot and Rob Arkley as culprits in the issue, two women (I know them, but I’ll leave out their names) sitting at the table in front of me looked at each other? One said, “Arkley? Who’s that?” The other one shrugged. They oppose the straightening/widening, but they obviously don’t follow big box politics. But as Ambrose Bierce said about war, it’s “God’s way of teaching Americans geography.”
The photo comes from photobucket.
The forum tonight was broadcast on KMUD and should be available in the archives.
45 comments
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February 24, 2010 at 11:06 pm
Heraldo
Thanks to KMUD for broadcasting the meeting and making it available in the archives.
February 24, 2010 at 11:54 pm
mresquan
“Perhaps it’s sound economic policy, but the free marketers are never around to protest the socialism.”
Hell,both Rose and Fred laud it,and deem it absolutely necessary.
To me,that’s one of the ironies about libertarians wanting a state of “Jefferson”,they want to get out of California because state and federal governments don’t do enough for them in providing road repairs,maintenance,and funding.
February 25, 2010 at 12:14 am
Ernie's Place
”as I’m getting older, I’m finding less use for “forums” which involve a one-sided panel making the soundbites which generate a Baptist worship style sing-a-long, but where we don’t actually learn much that is new.”
Bingo! Eric, it has all been said.
How do you use reason or logic with people that stuff their fingers in their ears and threaten to swing from the branches if the opposition makes any headway. What good would it do Caltrans to communicate anything. At this point I think that it would take an almost universal outcry to get Caltrans to do anything at all. Just like everything in California, we are being ruled by the lowest common denominator. They should have another meeting were they can collectively pat each other on the backs, they will win, because nobody wants to have to deal with them. The only thing that surprises me is that you wasted your time to go to the choir meeting.
February 25, 2010 at 1:30 am
Anonymous
I listened to the whole thing. It was pretty hilarious. The nuts filling that room reminded me of the tea parties.
February 25, 2010 at 6:59 am
Andrew Bird
Broadway and Fifth in Eureka is NOT an STAA choke point. I hear this bit of misinformation a lot. Caltrans realigned that intersection several years ago, converting a portion of Roy’s Auto Center into highway.
February 25, 2010 at 8:01 am
Steak n Eggs
More meetings and forums for those who haven’t figured it out yet. You guys are like a bunch of special needs children. Reminds me of the Sohum GPU meetings where everyone is screaming that their voices are not being heard or they are being left out of the process. Oops, the process has been overdue for like 10 years.
The policy and decision makers hear you, and are fortunately doing what is best for the majority, not the minority. Go ahead and have your meetings, break it down, spin it in every direction possible, and use that new found momentum to schedule yet another meeting!
Meanwhile, hopefully Caltrans moves forward and continues to ignore the kids in the back of the bus with their helmets on.
February 25, 2010 at 8:08 am
milt
Yes, do not ever question anything that CalTrans proposes as they truck metric tons of landfill back and forth from one pile to another mile post along the way and back again. It has become a major job provider for local truckers for years now and will only get better.
Have you seen the tarp covered pile just to the north of where they’ve been fixing 101 between Redcrest and Shively for the past 4 years? Where is that supposed to end up? Don’t say the hole because that’s already been filled.
There is the distinct possibility that as some of these landfill turnouts increase in size along 101, they’ll soon be large enough to accommodate the truck stops needed to service those STAA trucks. Then a local burgeoning cocaine, prostitution and Denny’s industry will be born to fill the void legalized pot created. 101 could very well start resembling I-5, or I-10, anywhere in Cal/ Ariz or the mid-west as we become more trucker “friendly”. Won’t the CofC meetings be fun then.
But, WTF do I know. I’m still trying to master swinging from the trees by my tail.
February 25, 2010 at 8:29 am
Anonymous
Dr. Miller responded that the people in Marin County have enough money to pay the higher prices.
On the other hand, if cypress could lower their prices more people could/would buy their cheese. Then they would need more workers. That might lead to an actual job created. I know, I know, basic economics doesn’t work in humboldt.
February 25, 2010 at 8:32 am
anonymous says
First off I want to make it clear that I do Not support altering R.G no matter what reasons are given by Caltrans or the politicians. Leave our beautiful R.G. alone.
But a message to the people at the meeting last night is in order:
I know it would be too much to ask to take your macrame hats off and step out of your empire waist acid washed 90′s jeans into some thing more “current” but could you PLEASE put a little effort into your HYGIENE?
It was very distracting to have to sit there trying to attentively listen when 1/2 the room was producing a non stop dizzying plume of FARTS,B.O,POT, AND PATCHOULI. It was nauseating.
At the very LEAST. shower BEFORE meetings and eat the beans AFTER.
February 25, 2010 at 8:41 am
anonymous says
deer in the headlights clendenan was there , he has made it clear that he supports the richardson grove “widening”, but when it came to asking questions,he pretended he was going to the bathroom but he slipped out and was nowhere in sight.
February 25, 2010 at 8:53 am
ANONYMOUS #1
Move the big road right away across the river, where it should be. Leave the Grove for the bicyclists, walkers, joggers, and 5 mph tourists. Save the trees and quiet down the road noise. Short term/low bid thinking is putting off the inevitable. Move the road!
February 25, 2010 at 9:06 am
Anonymous
Eric, think about losing , oh, let’s say 2 toes from one foot, and three toes from the other. Now think about tree roots. Does that make the “idea” not lost on u?
February 25, 2010 at 9:14 am
Eric Kirk
Eric, think about losing , oh, let’s say 2 toes from one foot, and three toes from the other. Now think about tree roots. Does that make the “idea” not lost on u?
Well, no, because toes are not roots. See, trees and human beings have different anatomies and physiologies. At least that’s what they taught me in government run schools.
February 25, 2010 at 1:17 pm
Ignoronymous
What about the comment Kim Floyd(who stated she would attend but failed to show) made on KMUD about Caltrans not cutting roots 2″ or greater in diameter?
Now that’s something I’d like to see. An “air spade” that leaves 2″ diameter roots unharmed and intact!
February 25, 2010 at 1:20 pm
Ignoronymous
Kim Floyd is well schooled for the job as Caltrans “Project Manager” for the RIP(Richardson Grove Improvement Project), or aka the RIP a hole in the Redwood Curtain project!
Ironic.
February 25, 2010 at 1:36 pm
Mr. Nice
$1 per pound? I might be sucking at math here, but wouldn’t this damn near double profits? I dunno what kinna profits this company makes, but for most companies if you found some way to lower the price of shipping your product by $1 per pound, that’d be like hitting the fucking lottery.
February 25, 2010 at 1:49 pm
anonymous says
Cliff also “agreed to disagree” with Bonnie B when he said on the air that code enforcemnt should be under law enforcement instead of civil and advocated strongly that code enforcement “officers” carry weapons. I live in mckville and do not want an armed officer showing up at my home building project pointing a gun at me telling me that my deck in 2″ higher than is allowed.
February 25, 2010 at 3:45 pm
Gordon Inkeles
As we all know, Richardson Grove is hardly “endangered” by this project. I’ve driven through the grove on 101 for several decades in all kinds of weather. In a driving rainstorm at, say, 2 am, it’s truly terrifying. I’ve seen people die out there.
As a business owner, I’m faced with freight rates that make it needlessly difficult for us to stay competitive. And as a cyclist, I’d welcome the access to the south that the improvements will bring. Humboldt County is one of the most desirable cycling destinations in the USA, however, it’s effectively cut off for any cyclist who is not willing to risk life and limb to get here from the north, south or east.
February 25, 2010 at 3:49 pm
Cristina
Eric, just for the record, Dan Baleme owns the One-Log House and accompanying deli/espresso bar/gift shop, not Bigfoot. My understanding is that Bigfoot’s owners live out of the area.
Anon at 8:41, Clif and Laurie Clendenen stayed until about 8:30 before leaving. They also stayed until about 8:30 the previous evening, when they attended the special meeting at South Fork about the proposed bond measure. I don’t think there was any sneaky slipping out involved. They’re working people and they live in Fortuna.
Four times as many community members showed up for this meeting than for the school one. But I’d better get off the soapbox before I get stuck to it.
February 25, 2010 at 5:19 pm
Ben
Thanks Eric… It’s a little spooky for me when I wind up disagreeing with so many of my friends over such an emotional issue. I find your comments in the original post right on the mark. On a rainy night, the grove is a deathtrap. I favor the realignment. I also agree that a one sided “forum” on an issue is hard to defend.
February 25, 2010 at 6:20 pm
Anonymous
I think one sided forums have their place but I agree that we need dialogue at this point. I also agree with Eric that the other side did a disservice to dialogue by showing up to last week’s event and not participating in discussion.
The response to the small business owners last night was very patronizing. It assumed they were ignorant of the issues. This is what give environmentalists a bad name.
February 25, 2010 at 7:44 pm
rohn
If Richardson Grove is “such a death trap” than why have there been so few accidents in the Grove? Jeff Hadin had the numbers from the last ten years or so and there have been very few accidents in the project area and no fatal ones. A lower speed limit would seem to make the Grove less dangerous versus straightening which allows greater speed thru the area of the project.
I would also like to see the numbers for Cypress Grove cheese as I recently paid less a pound for it out of the area than I get it at the local market (75 cents less for 4 oz. package = $3 per pound). Does it cost more to get it from Arcata to Redway than to Berkeley?
Also new studies show that the root structure of Redwoods are much older than the trees they support. Successive generations grow up from the roots form a ring of trees and eventually the largest one takes over and grows to be the magnificent specimens we see today. Humans are so short sighted and eager to make changes that have unforeseen consequences why the rush to realign a road that may not even be used in the future due to other factors such as climate change , end of fossil fuels and an economy that is failing? The money that is going into this project could be better used to repair and maintain our present roads which are falling apart from years of neglect.
February 26, 2010 at 12:36 am
Kym
In regards to people with other viewpoints attending the meeting:
Sometimes it is hard to know when listening respectfully to another’s point of view is seen as being stonefaced and unresponsive. I do understand that at the northern meeting a business owner attempted to refute some of the points being made and was squashed. Its hard to have a dialog if you aren’t comfortable that someone (anyone) is willing to listen.
My husband who works for CALTRANS was there attempting to understand other people’s point of view even though this is not his project. He did this because he cares about the county, the people and the environment. After the meeting, he did approach individuals and listen as well as speak.
In regards to this subject and many others, I get so frustrated with people thinking that because someone has a different opinion of one thing, then therefore they are evil and deserving of name calling. By all means debate the issues but, for God’s sake could we skip the insults. And try and assume–in spite of all our paranoid fears, the other side might not be trying to evilly conquer the world but might just feel differently than us on what will achieve the common good.
February 26, 2010 at 6:12 am
Ernie's Place
Rohn
Thank-you for knowing what you are talking about. It is true that MOST root structures in an old growth forest are maybe ten thousand years old, and most old growth redwoods are shoots that grew off of the tree that had been destroyed by disease or fire. Redwoods respond remarkably well to pruning, including their roots, and they survive quite well. In some cases the trees respond to become even healthier.
Richardson Grove aside, we have removed the fire factor, that for all of history has thinned and pruned the redwood forest. If you see a redwood with a dead top. It is because something else, usually other trees has choked it out.
Thank you for a valid opinion!
February 26, 2010 at 7:34 am
Lefty
I agree with Kym. There doesn’t seem possible to disagree agreeably anymore. It’s politically incorrect to use the word “retard”, but it’s ok to put people down by calling them special needs children? Pitiful, really! The road from Cloverdale to Mendocino goes right through a Redwood forest (one of many around here) and the trees are doing just fine. I love me my Redwoods, and I love me my Humboldt County without Home Depot. I do, however, have news for those of you who don’t want big boxes here. It’s to late folks! They have been here for years as in Costco, Target, K-Mart, Sears,Winco, The Bayshore Mall etc. Not widening the road won’t keep em out, but it will continue to make driving through “The Grove” a
February 26, 2010 at 7:35 am
Lefty
death defying act.
February 26, 2010 at 8:23 am
mresquan
“Jeff Hadin had the numbers from the last ten years or so and there have been very few accidents in the project area and no fatal ones.”
True enough.And I once did some work for someone who oddly enough, works for CALTRANS who told me that the ones that did occur would likely have happened even if the road was widened to what they are proposing.
February 26, 2010 at 9:15 am
Eric Kirk
Purely anecdotal, but one of my biggest personal injury settlements came from a spectacular accident about a decade ago, involving the large tree which used to have the reflectors. The injuries were quite serious, and we considered an action against the state. Fortunately for my clients, the other driver had plenty of insurance, so we ultimately didn’t file against the state.
We’ve made a bit of money off of Richardson Grove, but I have to admit that we’ve made much more off of Briceland Road.
February 26, 2010 at 9:48 am
Ernie's Place
Eric.
Let me presume to give your commenters a “legal” lecture.
The road is probably as safe now as it will ever be through the redwoods of Richardson Grove. However, the State of California declared it “unsafe” for long trucks with long turning radiuses. They can’t remove that classification without proving that they did something to improve the roadway. If the classification were to be arbitrarily removed, any accidents with a long truck would be a field day for lawyers. So, to join the modern world, and not penalize truckers, and the north coast, the road has to be “fixed”. But, I’m sure that the road would be slightly safer, at least for a conflict between a car and a long truck.
February 26, 2010 at 10:19 am
anon
Ernie, redwoods are not affected by disease. Also, dead tops in young growth are commonly caused by grey squirrles girdling the tops. In old redwoods the tops simply die first. Severing some of a redwood’s roots will cause very little harm to the tree compared to other species.
February 26, 2010 at 11:53 am
Jeff Musgrave
Who and where have you seen people die? We need facts, Mr., not lies.
I’d hate to burst your bike bubble, but Caltrans is not putting in a bike lane. Caltrans stated in the DEIR that it is up to the cash strapped park to build a bike lane.
I’m an avid bicyclist, and have biked that section twice in the past two years. Once for the Redwood Curtain Bicycle Run to SF, and once to LA. The Richardson Grove section is very safe, especially compared to Devil’s Slide south of the Bay, or any other section where traffic speed is increased through winding highway portions.
How is increasing the speed and flow of traffic through Richardson Grove going to make that section “safer”? How will bigger trucks and increased traffic make the Richardson Grove section(or any section including downtown Eureka) safer?
Not a single project proponent can answer these questions. The absurdity of preaching that the project will make the 101 safer is mind-boggling. Increasing speed and traffic does not increase safety.
Please cease and dissist your spreading of disinformation.
February 26, 2010 at 12:41 pm
Rose
Honest to God this is ridiculous. To cut a tree to improve safety conditions – and Ken Miller cannot drop this. It is insanity at the highest level.
You ought to drive down Ocean Drive in McKinleyville, where Ken Miller neighbors (plural, not just the one next to him) have cut down scads of big trees in the interests of safety (they don’t want the next windstorm to cause them to be crushed in their beds at night.)
Haven’t heard a peep out of Ken. Now has anyone ever heard a peep of a Thank you from Ken for the millions that went into shoring up the bluffs and saving his house.
This is incredibly stupid. Insane.
February 26, 2010 at 1:10 pm
Rose
Might as well post some historical links – just for fun –
Links about STAA trucks and Richardson Grove, a year in review.
Word of the day: OFFTRACKING
Put up or shut up time?
Salzman does have an opinon on large trucks though.
STAA trucks mean more protection for the drivers, legally.
Your Rights Under the STAA: Refusing to Drive Under Bad Weather
Bigger STAA trucks mean less truck traffic.
What causes more damage to the roads?
Anon.r.mous’ helpful picture guide to STAA trucks.
F.U.D. from Paul Cienfuegos and Richard Salzman
Word of the day is ENORMOUS!
Cattle Trucks, reporters and what it means to you.
Take the time to read ‘em. (Hope I’ve got ‘em lined up right, you don’t have a preview function)
February 26, 2010 at 1:12 pm
Rose
http://anonrmous.blogspot.com/2008/03/links-about-staa-trucks-and-richardson.html
Just in case that other comment with all the links doesn’t make it out of moderation.
February 26, 2010 at 3:15 pm
Gordon Inkeles
“Who and where have you seen people die? We need facts, Mr., not lies.”
And we need respectful discourse if you expect us to take you seriously.
The deaths were late at night in a storm like the one we’re having now. Once, in the middle of RG I saw an upside down car and a bashed up truck surrounded by police and searchlights. Another time I saw a semi that had driven head on into a tree. It appeared to be on fire.
I didn’t stop to take names.
February 26, 2010 at 4:35 pm
Bunny
I’ve heard of several accidents over the years. During Harley Weekend two riders hit head-on and died in RG. Figure that one out, I can’t. Also the bus with prisoners from Pelican Bay crashed in there and the prisoners mostly all went to the hospital. Great stories about that one. These must have been more than 10 years ago. Accidents do happen there.
February 26, 2010 at 6:14 pm
Gordon Inkeles
Yes, it’s an obstacle course–in the middle of a divided Freeway! The improvements will widen the road and make it safer.
February 27, 2010 at 8:47 am
capdiamont
Here is my solution, build a six lane freeway through there. Four lanes for traffic, two for bicycle/turn lane. Make sure there is a good solid barrier in the middle to prevent head ons, and cross traffic. You get rid of cross traffic, and head ons, you have made it much safer. Yes that means removing some old growths, but hey, it doesn’t matter how much care/science we provide, they will just die anyway, right?
As for the other forum Eric, to say we sat there stony faced silence, and not engage the panelists is a lie. While others before and after were allowed to interrupt the panelists, when I tried point out the fact STAA truck are allowed to enter Humboldt county from the north, I was called rude. Furthermore the question period wasn’t till after 9pm, after the rant prayer, rambling panelist, wake up supervisors song, more rambling from panelists. One question presented was in reference to Miller’s statement of big boxes don’t like to build along nonSTAA routes. The questioner presented that big boxes such as Costco, and Target were already here in Eureka, Walmart and Home Depot were already in Crescent City before there was STAA routes in this area. The panelist refined that big box comment was only Walmart and Home Depot. The panelists didn’t get the point at all of the big boxes already in Crescent city. There were other questioners.
February 27, 2010 at 3:49 pm
Eric Kirk
Well, Cap, I wasn’t there. But in the case of either account, it underscores why we need more panel debate type discussions on these issues – moderated by someone neutral – where claims can be responded to immediately and comprehensively.
March 1, 2010 at 11:07 am
dawn i
I listened to the KMUD stream as long as I could to hear the forum was just more of the same that we have heard over and over. Of course it is good to make sure people have the ‘facts’ as they are but what I want now is what kind of direct action can we as citizens opposing this over-priced project get involved in besides writing and sending letters of our discontent?
The reason I finally turned off the radio is because I felt I was not going to get any answers to that questions.
When I am needed to bodily protest send out a call to arms. As for more forums of the same ilk I’ll pass for now. I have made up my mind in regards to this project.
Anyone who believes trees whose roots are cut or damaged don’t eventually die could talk to any decent honest arborist.
March 1, 2010 at 8:26 pm
hillmuffin
I don’t think we should just cut down every tree that is perceived as dangerous because some car could hit it. I have some huge firs in my backyard–should I cut them down because they might fall on my house twenty feet away? Am I somewhat suicidal to leave them alone? They are what its all about living here: trees.
March 1, 2010 at 10:24 pm
Mr. Nice
That all depends on if they are healthy or all nasty with sunken bark, sores, splits, rot, viral infected lookin leaves, etc. Don’t feel bad about killing a messed up tree.
March 2, 2010 at 9:51 pm
capdiamont
“Anyone who believes trees whose roots are cut or damaged don’t eventually die could talk to any decent honest arborist.”
Looking back at history, those old growth trees with the pavement next to the trunks had bulldozers that had no care for the roots. It can be easily said the bulldozers cut, mangled, and compressed the roots, yet those trees are alive today. Simple logic says the work Caltrans proposes doing is going to be ok with the old growth trees.
Hill, another reason to cut them down is if your in a rural area, for a defensible space for fire protection. Need 100′ I think.
March 3, 2010 at 9:10 am
Anonymous
Then again, old growth redwood is pretty fire-proof, isn’t it?
December 21, 2010 at 5:14 pm
I wasn’t at the meeting « Sohum Parlance II
[...] true of other debates as well, including Richardson Grove. Demonstrations, whether street or at planned attendance of public meetings, have to be thought [...]