In response to this Nation piece entitled Feeling the Hate in Tel Aviv, which includes a rather disturbing video (includes racist remarks directed at Obama); a long time friend of mine who has lived in Israel and is an expert on Israeli culture and the Middle East conflict threw together some thoughts. She is very much a left winger.
I saw it. You can see the contradiction in the Kikar scene where one of the young guys pointed to himself and talked about not liking people who are dark skinned. One thing that the video does not do a good job is showing the context for these ideas, which are very complicated. Part of it has to do with the lack of international education and awareness, part of it has to do with the attacks that Israelis have suffered from since the beginning of the Second Intifada. This is a big factor. I remember being in Tel Aviv during the First Intifada and even in 1993 – when most Tel Avivis were of the mind set – the Intifada isn’t against me and I’m not against the Intifada.
Also I don’t think that Max Blumenthal knows Arabic. I was on the web just last night and I was watching a youtube video of a Yemeni Jewish dance and the comments in Arabic were completely anti-Semitic, stating that the Jews weren’t real Yeminis and that they were Zionists, that the women were whores. Last December one Rabbi in Yemen was murdered and it now looks like the very last Jews in Yemen are leaving. There were also anti-Semitic attacks in Europe, in Spain, in France, in Holland. One guy was tortured for 3 weeks and then murdered. This is not being reported by the mainstream international press, but it is being reported in Israel. South Africa is a leader in the Boycott Israel movement and calling for the replacement of Israel with a secular Palestinian state. There was a record number of immigrants to Israel from there in December. The economy in Israel is really awful 1/3 of Israeli children go hungry. The welfare state has been almost destroyed, but people are still immigrating because of this rise in anti-Semitism. What you are seeing is a cycle of anti-Semitism fueling racism, extremism fueling extremism. All of this on top of the on-going Israeli Occupation, and that is also on top of a general feeling that Israel’s right to exist is being attacked, and Israelis are in danger of having bombs dropped on them and the rest of the world doesn’t care. Such a situation is not one conducive to promoting liberal enlightened ideas.
I have been trying to continue this post and facebook is really annoying so I will try to be as brief as possible despite the fact that this is not a good format for dealing with this issue.
The west’s relationship with the Middle East continues to be exploitative – sell weapons of mass destruction and buy oil. Talk of the Nation had some guy on a couple of weeks ago wishing that someone would drop bombs on Israel after having read Carter’s book. There is your stimuli for Israel’s current hatefest.10 years ago there was not massive popular support for the Occupation, but Israel was able to continue that Occupation with US support. Now the US has finally changing its policies but it is doing so at a time when Israeli cities have seen bombs drop on their civilians, when there is a regime in Iran that threatens to destroy Israel and is close to having a nuclear bomb and sponsors right wing Islamistists who try on a regular basis to infiltrate Israel and do in Israel what is being done in Iraq on a daily basis. Israel is not in the US it is in the Middle East and it is becoming like any other shitty Middle Eastern country. Americans and American Jews need to face the facts and deal with reality. And it is an ugly reality. The whole Middle East is an ugly reality. Cakha ze ha haim sham!
I realize some of these thoughts may fall on deaf ears as the American political approach to the issue pretty much breaks it down to an oversimplified black and white. But the end result of the progressive communities’ Arab good-Israel bad approach is pretty much guaranteeing a perpetual cycle of violence.
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July 26, 2009 at 3:33 pm
Moonshadow
I see it this way . . . neither side is blame-free . . . Your correspondent writes in her last para.
If the occupation had ended 10 years ago in response to the fact support was lacking, what would the situation be now? Would the Palestinians and other Arabs be bombing Israeli cities and communities? As with karma, quite a bit of what is happening today is a reflection of how Israel treated the Palestinians and other Arabs in earlier years It is not possible to look at this entire mess without considering what all sides have done to one another. Quite frankly I have become more and more disgusted with both sides because of their historic tendency to continue their feuds in the manner of their centuries past ancestors. There comes a point where if the sides want a different outcome, they’re going to have to be willing to do what has not been done before. The politics in the region have devolved to the level of spoiled children playing with very powerful and dangerous weapons.
July 26, 2009 at 4:47 pm
Eric Kirk
True enough. But my point is that the American left, such as it is, has pretty much embraced a very oversimplistic view of the conflict by reducing it to a question of an indigenous rebellion against a Euro-imperialist invasion and occupation. There are elements of it, but it’s just not that simple. Karma is one thing, but the fact is given the opportunity the Palestinian Liberation movement would wipe out every Jew in Israel. There may be reciprocal elements on the Israeli side, but they are very small and without influence. The American left condemned, as did I, the completely disproportionate and brutal invasion of Gaza last winter. But many of the activists refused to condemn the bombings from Gazans which led to the attack, with some activist leaders right on camera refusing to condemn the bombing of innocents including children, probably on the basis that they “can’t judge” an oppressed people, yada, yada. But basically many Israelis will understandably take that as a disregard for the well-being of their own children and disregard any moral power our own pressure might have. It shouldn’t be hard to condemn unprovoked attacks on civilians. It really shouldn’t.
July 26, 2009 at 6:26 pm
ecumenik
Israel is actively committing genocidal acts against a subjected people. No one is going to cry for Judah, while Israel kills the innocent.
July 26, 2009 at 7:14 pm
Eric Kirk
Like I said, I don’t think it’s that simple. If genocide was the goal, the West Bank and Gaza would be parking lots by now.
July 26, 2009 at 9:43 pm
Early RIser
This whole discussion is based on a video of a handful of young men–several of whom may have been drunk. It’s not a significant sample of anything. IIn fact, these attitudes are prevalent in Israel.
Compare that to the Arab press in which anti-semitic cartoons are gleefully displayed on a daily basis to millions. Additionally, the Holocaust cartoon contest, which was sponsored by the govt of Iran, was widely applauded throghout the ME.
July 26, 2009 at 9:45 pm
Early RIser
typo:
These additudes are NOT prevalent in Israel
July 26, 2009 at 10:44 pm
Ben
Israel is a nuclear power. It is not going to disappear. The various nuclear projects in Islamic countries are more a response to this threat than a scheme to blow Israel off the map. I’m hocked to hear that children go hungry in Israel. This whole situation is terrible.
July 27, 2009 at 3:42 am
ecumenik
When the Native peoples where isolated behind fences, and their young men were all criminalized, and shot as: “Terrorists”, people of conscience said it was genocide, plain and simple. and the criminals themselves, said, “no, no. It’s a very complicated situation.”
It’s not really that complicated. Israel is holding a bobcat by the tail, and it can’t let go. A father is never going to forgive the cruel killing of his ten yr old son. whether by suicide bomber or by an 18 yr old soldier. That kind of hatred, combined with earth shattering grief, will never be diffused.
There is a lot of gloating in Israel, about how the Palestinians refused the “Two State Solution,” and that now they are, “begging for it.”
A lot of good Germans were apologists for the National Socialists. I’m sure they used the argument the it was all very complicated.
I don’t mean to accuse anyone of being a: ” Good German.” but for me, being a: “Good Jew,” does not mean supporting the injustice that exists in Palestine. Just using the word: “Palestine,” makes me an enemy of Israel, according to the new leadership.
July 27, 2009 at 4:36 am
ecumenik
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/07/26-6
July 27, 2009 at 5:33 am
Early RIser
“I don’t mean to accuse anyone of being a: ” Good German.”
You just did. Repeatedly.
July 27, 2009 at 6:02 am
Moonshadow
It is largely about perception on the two sides. Each side believes the other is out to annihilate the other and responds accordingly. There has to be some way the sides can sit down and develop a solution. I would say, however, for that to happen the various people are going to have to be willing to put their trust in their leaders . . . AND . . . the leaders are going to have put all personal and self-interest aside to serve their people.
It is an amazingly intractable situation for the very reason there are valid grievances on all sides coupled with perceptions that are not wholly accurate.
To be honest I also believe the various proxy groups here in the USA and elsewhere do little more than inflame the situation.
July 27, 2009 at 6:08 am
Moonshadow
Hmmmmm . . . Eric, I think you miss the point ecumenik is trying to make, which is that Israel’s actions in defense of itself are in practice quite genocidal. They may not be actually wiping the Palestinians out, but the effect on the soul and spirit of the people is likely similar.
On the other hand, the use by Palestinians of suicide bombers and similar tactics is likely to inspire a violent and heavy-handed reaction by Israel.
Until the sides get past the hopeless cycle of “my grievance is greater than yours”, etc. . . . until they get past the “eye for an eye” approach that is so prevalent among the cultures of the region little is going to change–the whole mess will continue to devolve.
July 27, 2009 at 6:18 am
Moonshadow
One additional thought . . . the “American left” unfortunately is not blessed with the ability to take a nuanced approach. Most often it is an all-or-nothing very black and white approach.
I remember that one of the things that stood out about Judi Bari was her ability to take that nuanced view. She was able to see the loggers’ side, and their story, as much as she saw the story of the trees. Yet all too often other activists at the protests would fail to see the basic humanity of the loggers who served more than one master . . . their bosses at work, their family responsibilities, and the responsibilities that one way or another nature demands of all of us.
I part ways with many in the “progressive left” quite often over the tunnel vision that affects so many groups, organizations, and individuals in the various movements.
All of us need to reach a point where we can put aside our agendas and work for the greater good.
July 27, 2009 at 9:52 am
Anonymous
What to you is “genocide” is to an Israeli desperate actions to protect their children.
July 27, 2009 at 10:05 am
Moonshadow
and vice versa to a Palestinian.
We have to stop looking at this issue with such a rigid US vs THEM viewpoint.
Until we do that it will just keep spiraling around and around and around.
July 27, 2009 at 5:18 pm
Carson Park Ranger
Judging from the Israelis I’ve met, they’re at least as racist as the southern members of the Senate Judiary Committee. And Eric, Gaza may not look like a parking lot, but it does resemble the moon.
July 27, 2009 at 7:34 pm
early riser
Gaza would be the Med’s Singapore, a prosperous demilitarized trading hub, if it weren’t for the continuous rocketing of their Israeli neighbor.
But CPR I guess if your neighbor fires a rocket at your home you just turn the other cheek.
July 28, 2009 at 8:23 am
unanonymous
1/3 Israeli children go hungry, how many Palestinian children go hungry in Israel? bet it’s a larger percentage.
These people deserve each other.
July 28, 2009 at 8:51 am
unanonymous
early riser, I believe that is what the bible, koran and tora all say.
July 28, 2009 at 10:24 am
silence do good
Rachel Cory 23 yrs of age crushed by a Cat bulldozer on 3/16/03 in Gaza,the missles fired by Palistinians wer in response to the occupation & continued destruction of home and ancient olive groves for Jewish settlements. you can also thank Ariel Sharron for his symbolic march to the Temple mount, silence
July 28, 2009 at 11:22 am
Eric Kirk
No they weren’t. There had been a cease fire in effect for months, and the radical elements weren’t happy about it and shot them over to provoke an Israeli response. Unfortunately, when the Palestinian Authority proved either unable or unwilling to put a stop to it, the radicals got what they wanted.
And nothing justifies the targeting of civilians. Nothing.
July 28, 2009 at 12:01 pm
Carson Park Ranger
“There had been a cease fire in effect for months, and the radical elements … shot them over to provoke an Israeli response.”
Eric’s New York Times version of recent history would be laughable to anyone who reads Israeli newspapers (which are much more frank than the American press), but at least his view is a bit more nuanced than Early Riser’s goofy, Fox News view of the world.
July 28, 2009 at 12:19 pm
Moonshadow
For what it is worth I don’t consider either the Israelis or the Palestinians any less culpable in this mess. It has devolved to a very deadly version of the playground argument where each child is saying the other one hit first. It has gone back and forth so many times now it is difficult to find a solution there. The sides need to let go of their vengeance and pride in order to seek a solution that will keep countless more from dying.
I have a difficult time feeling sympathy for either side.
July 28, 2009 at 2:37 pm
Anonymous
Of course we must accept the Democracy Now version which is that the rocket shooters are heroicly resisting tyranny with every child they maim or kill.
July 28, 2009 at 2:52 pm
early riser
And I have “a difficult time” hearing yet another moral equivalency cop-out.
The deal remains on the table: two states with peaceful borders. Gaza could have been the first step. Still could be once Hamas is out of there. Palestinians have a choice: a state or a power struggle. As recent events have demonstrated (900+ rockets into Israel since the withdrawal), they aren’t going to get both.
July 28, 2009 at 2:58 pm
middle child
Israel is in a very tough situation and they will never extricate themselves until they take responsibility for their part in getting themselves there in the first place. Clearly Israel is not alone in manufacturing this miserable situation but their political and economic stability puts them squarely in the driver’s seat toward either real progress or continued devolution. As long as Israelis hide behind the belief that anti-zionism is synonymous with anti-semitism they are destined to hated throughout the Middle East and will continue to lose respect in the eyes of the world.
July 28, 2009 at 3:00 pm
Eric Kirk
The problem is that Zionism is equated with Judaism by many of its opponents, a number of such posts made right here on this blog. And not all of them by he who shall not be named.
July 28, 2009 at 5:07 pm
early riser
That’s one problem. But any excuse for Jew-baiting will do, especially one that comes with a license to feel self-righteous.
Another problem is that the two state deal is just sitting there waiting for a responsible Palestinian to sign and put an end to all the suffering. Candidates?
July 28, 2009 at 6:50 pm
ecumenik
It is not Democracy Now, or Amy, that is portraying the Palestinian fighters as heroic. but rather; it is the plain facts of the situation. Amy just lets the tape roll, and one senses the overwhelming superiority of the Israeli forces. It’s American “underdog-ism” (my word) But even so, there are terrorists on both sides. some wear uniforms.
I have no patience for justifications when children are being killed. Has anyone seen the pictures (Robert Fisk) of the father and son pinned down by gunfire. They were clearly not armed, a man with a child. in 12 photographs they are both killed. I can’t look at it without crying.
we have already had this conversation about the rocket fire from Hamas preceding the recent invasion. Israel had violated the cease fire some 24 times, it had killed three civilians getting water, they were actively waging war against Gaza, while every incident of a grieving relative lashing out against the army was blown up into a “terrorist attack” and whole neighborhoods were razed.
It is not Anti-Semitic to accuse Israel of Genocide and other crimes against humanity against the Palestinian people. Their actions are based on cultural racism, and ancient tribal hatreds, and finally; religious incompatibility with Islam. I would also make the same accusation against the Palestinian. But lets face it. Israel was founded on injustice.
Some are trying to bring attention to the people who are doing the dying. Pretty hard to do when the global media propagandizes for Israel.
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/07/28-6
July 28, 2009 at 7:33 pm
early riser
Actually, accusing Israel of “genocide” and “cultural racism,” referring to “tribal hatreds” and “religious incompatibility” are classic elements of anti-semitism.
You’ve found your license, haven’t you.
July 28, 2009 at 7:34 pm
Carson Park Ranger
Jew-baiting? WTF?
“Early riser” sounds more like Rip Van Winkle.
July 28, 2009 at 7:44 pm
Eric Kirk
waiting for a responsible Palestinian to sign
You mean one not obsessed with long life?
July 28, 2009 at 7:44 pm
Early RIser
Note the response above to the two state solution which continues to sit on the table.
July 28, 2009 at 7:48 pm
Eric Kirk
There are two logjams for the two state solution. One is the issue of East Jerusalem. The other, not often discussed, is the issue of water. The one point that was perhaps weighted too heavily in Israel’s favor with the proposal. But as I recall, the Palestinian leadership was never really clear on what it would take to get them to sign on, even though they were getting the vast majority of what they’d demanded during the negotiations. It suggested either that they weren’t really interested in signing, or the death threats from the numerous well-armed crazies gave them cold feet.
July 28, 2009 at 7:59 pm
anonymous
early riser,
You are quite the joker. Yes indeed, sign here “responsible” Palestinian and you agree to Israel’s land ownership claims that have never been recognized by either the US or the rest of the world. There can be no so called two-state solution that doesn’t take into account the famous “facts on the ground” created by Israel over international objections.
They made be poor but they’re not stupid. Your “Med’s Singapore” illusion is pathetic.
July 28, 2009 at 8:16 pm
Carson Park Ranger
“Note the response above to the two state solution…”
Next he’ll be telling us about “a land without people for a people without land.”
July 28, 2009 at 9:48 pm
Early RIser
Eric,
East Jerusalem is Arab already, so a deal would simply formalize that fact. Water rights will be difficult, yes, but in Israel as everywhere else, compromises will be found.
As for Israel’s “land ownership claims,” they are arguably the oldest on earth.
July 28, 2009 at 10:01 pm
Eric Kirk
Israel will not concede the Temple location. Nor will the Muslims concede their spiritual interest. The only answer, unacceptable to both parties, is to make Jerusalem an international city.
Compromises have to be made for the water. But that was a remaining sticking point, particularly with regard to the Golan Heights – although technically speaking that’s an issue with Syria and not Palestinians.
As for the “land ownership claims,” I’m not aware that this was an obstacle. The point is, an agreement was drawn up, but any Palestinian leader who puts his name to any paper which acknowledges Israel’s right to exist will face a Fatwa. Just ask this man (in the next life).
July 28, 2009 at 10:06 pm
Early RIser
The “Mediterranean Singapore” model for Gaza goes back at least as far as Oslo, where it was endorsed by both parties. In fact, it would probably work.
Your hero Yassir Arafat supported it. Do take note before you start ranting again.
BTW What part of “Palestine” was Arafat from?
July 28, 2009 at 10:09 pm
Early RIser
“any Palestinian leader who puts his name to any paper which acknowledges Israel’s right to exist will face a Fatwa. Just ask this man (in the next life).”
Indisputably true.
July 29, 2009 at 6:38 am
Carson Park Ranger
Israel won’t concede anything meaningful, so your imagined “paper” is a fatuous, moot point.
July 29, 2009 at 8:59 am
silence do good
It Israel should be an international city, aren’t we all Jahs chillens?
July 29, 2009 at 9:20 am
Mr. Nice
I will never understand why Americans view this political situation as solvable. This land dispute is going to produce one bloody conflict after another. The only thing that will stop the Palestinian people from taking up arms again is if Turkey can ship some water to them. Otherwise, there is going to be more rockets, helicopters, and suicide bombers.
Americans should realize this situation cannot be controlled with foreign diplomacy and drop out of supporting Israel or Palestine.
July 29, 2009 at 11:54 am
early riser
Again, the peace treaty that both sides found acceptable ten years ago is sitting on the table. Arafat didn’t sign because he was afraid of getting shot by Hamas, the fascistic, death cult went on to ruin Gaza. Can you find the courage to at least disagree with them? Do you have a problem with the Hamas position on “honor killings?” What about their position on homosexuality, cruelty to children and animals and intolerance of Christianity? Take a break from whining about Israel and consider what you are supporting.
What’s it going to be: support a fascistic death cult and regurgitate their tired propaganda about how “hopeless” everything is, or peace?